Tournament NDWC III - Format Discussion and Tier Polling (UPDATE: POST #20 )

[Steorra]

art by Kolohe ​

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Firstly, the tiers. With NDAG leaving and SS NDOU and SV NDUBERs entering the mix, the lineup will be a bit different from last time, so we're open to suggestions on how we should organize it this time around. As a baseline, We are going to put a hard minimum to 3 NatDex OU. Ideally, we are going to have 8 slots per team this year, but that is also open to discussion. Here is what we had last year:

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National Dex OU
National Dex OU
National Dex OU
National Dex UU
National Dex AG
National Dex Monotype
Best of 3 [OU / UU / AG] [Game 1 will be OU, loser picks G2]

Format is still open to suggestions but one goal I do agree we should do is make the format unique from PL. Doesn't make sense two different tours just harbor the same format, but of course alternatives aren't that big so far. so we'd love to hear feedback and suggestions on this format.

Now that we've gone over the tiers, we'd like to address the format of the tournament itself. Last year, we used a two-sided format with mini round robins in each side. There has not been much discussion on changing this and barely had any support last WC so this won't be the main focus of this thread, however if it does become popular it can be fielded here. Any and all discussions regarding the execution of WC can go here.

 

[Ryuji]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SV UU
SV RU
SV MONO
SV Uber

I think that's the best possible format, as it will help develop all nd tiers. I get that people want a more OU-biased format but I think it's bad, OU had around 4 tournaments to develop while others just had one kickoff and for mono, there was a trio tour. I do get that Wcop and PL should have different formats, but I think here in the new gen context all tiers should receive a chance to be developed, as it seemed to me that Wcop had that purpose, including UU when the tier had basically nothing during the first iteration.
I can see it being full OU, that doesn't bother me that much, but then I'd say it should be OU and only OU, adding Monotype or whatever without giving a shot to other tiers to see a chance to be improved seems really arbitrary. If a full OU format is elected then I think it should be either 4-4 between SV and SS or 5-3 (SV-SS) if we want to favor tier development. Some could argue about a full SV OU, but it would be a shame to pass on SS, as the tier still can be developed and is really cool to play.
Also I don't think I need to explain why I hate BO3 but I truly hate that slot, until gen 10 it shouldn't be even brought to the conversation.

 

[Isza]

First of all I wanted to say... WOOOOO NDWC HYPE!!!!

And second, after talking with some community members this is the format I believe we should use this year.

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SS OU
MONO
UU/UBERS

NDWC is the first major team tournament of the generation, and for that reason it should have mainly CG OU focus. 3 slots seems too little and anything over 5 seems overbearing, so 4 is the sweet spot. I want to advocate for 2 SS due to the fact that it was a very popular ND tier that most of the playerbase enjoyed, while not liking SV as much. I also believe every region could field at least 2 SS players seeing as it was CG last wcop.

Monotype has been in our WCOPS since the introduction of the tournament, and I see no reason to snub it. It's one of the most popular and active ND lower tiers with solid community backing it. Now I will admit for UU/UBERS I'm a bit ignorant with their respective communities which is why it's slashed. Ubers is new but apparently super active, and UU has been around and I'm sure both can field players. I bolded UU as personal preference.

I've seen a format like this being discussed in the discord
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SV UU
SV RU
SV MONO
SV Uber

This is a good format but for NDPL where EVERY natdex tier has its own representation. I don't think we need lower tier inclusion for the first teamtour of the year and again, think we should prioritize CG/old gen OU.

If you want to bring up bias I wouldn't even mind 6 SV and 2 SS, although I think MONO and UU have earned their place given their history and community.

 

[Steorra]

On the Lower tier representation bit:

I'd like to add that I plan to organize a grand slam for all lower tiers after this tour (might be during even if its OU focused) with a banner prize so being worried about lower tier representation shouldn't be a high priority concern, but not an all founding argument to exclude it completely either.

Just wanted to put that out there as i remain neutral.

 

[Dorron]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV UU / SS OU
SS OU
SV Ubers
SV Mono


Whatever the final format is, don't go for RU, it is still getting stupid drops and rises that turn it to a completely different tier each shift (we got Hawlucha and Mew while losing Moltres Alo-Tales and Tangrowth, and we still have to clean the tier from other broken shit.

 

[hidin]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV UU
SV Monotype
SV Uber
SS OU

Been seeing a lot of conversation about having a Tera suspect slot, but I urge you guys to play the metagame as it is. There's not even a justifiable source to do it nor is the time proper to do so. Stop the cope and just play the damn tier! Also while SS is a good meta and should be in the spotlight again I feel like focusing on the current gen metagame seems like the better thing to do since we are in infancy and still have a lot of places to grow in.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

SV OU x4
SV UU
SV Mono
SV Uber
SS OU

popular consensus that I agree with

 

[sealoo]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SS OU
SV UU / SV OU
SV Uber
SV Mono

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I captained last year I would like to say that NDWC is a lot fun but I think it had a serious issue last year with unbalance specifically regarding some countries having actual players for tiers like UU and AG. I think if you want to separate this tour from NDPL then you need to lean into the formats strength and that is teamwork.

In NDPL you can pick top players for any slot you want and they can be mostly self serving with some support from teammates here and there. But in NDWC the whole tour revolves around teamwork as a lot of your team will be amateurs who may have not even played the tier much before. This gets a lot harder when you have a tier that the team has no actual players for. Last year me and Dorron put Reze in AG purely because he had a good OST run and he was like the only player that put down "All" under his sign up. Only astralydia (apologies to the mods for using the old name that one time) even knew about the tier and they hadn't even played it in a year. This result in me just linking forum posts in that chat because I could barely help either. I generally feel bad for him because he stood no chance against the actual players and I wouldn't be surprised if it left a sour taste in his month after. I have concern that this could dismotivated players from touching these tiers again.

Prefered

SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND

Wouldn't Mind

SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SS ND
SS ND
MONO

I think the same tier has worked incredibly well for the actual WCOP and these posts is how I feel exactly. but SS ND and Mono are popular enough for them to probably not be awkward to get players for. I have nothing against lower tiers (or higher tiers in ubers case) I just think they work better when you can buy actual players for them.

Also on a side note I really don't like how this going to be running close to the actual WCOP again this might burn players out.

 

[ChrisPBacon]

SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDMONO
SV NDUU / SS NDOU
SV NDUBERS

This is the format im feeling rn, im leaning towards having a uu slot but if the uu community feels similar to what dorron said abt ru then it might leave a bit more discussion. alternatively just extend to 10 slots xdxd

 

[3MoreMinutes]

I alr said this on disc and it's the consensus but I'll throw my opinions in:

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SV Ubers
SV UU
SV Mono

I think this is a nice middle ground between going all OU and the lower tier focus NDPL has. 5 or 6 OU games (could be another SS OU over UU/Mono asw) is right in the middle of the 3 OU in NDPL and 8. I agree that the tour should be focused on SV because it's the first teamtour of the gen, SS should prob get more play than this but I would prefer that to be in future tours.

SVUU is debatable imo. I wouldn't say it's in a particularly healthy state right now, there are a few mons that really need to go. It is relatively stable though, and once the issues (Mega Gyarados, Dondozo, probably Grimmsnarl/screens) are eliminated I think the tier is fine outside of tera. SSUU is a better tier but if the slot isn't gonna be an SV tier I think it should just be SSOU. As a UU player I'm biased, but my take is that UU should be in. SSOU replacing it would be fine as well.

 

[Sputnik]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SS OU / SV UU
SV Ubers
SV Mono

Would highly prefer a second SS OU slot over SV UU, that tier is excellent and well liked by the playerbase and highlighting it further would be to the tournaments benefit imo.

 

[Chris Chien Pao]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SV UBERS
SV MONOTYPE
SS OU
SS OU
This what i am feeling i didnt add uu cuz its not mainly in trend or prolly its pretty dead. I am looking forward to take part in the natdexwc and thats what i feel.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SS OU
SV Ubers
SV Monotype
SS OU / SV OU / maybe SV UU

This list might be a bit biased, but I believe three current gen slots should be good enough. SS was and still is a highly appreciated metagame, so 2 guaranteed slots and a third potential one is justified in my eyes. Ubers and Monotype are the two alternate tiers, since they're the most well-known at the moment and both pretty stable. The final slot is interchangeable; SS OU is, as already mentioned, well-liked, and I'd like to see it here over a 4th SV OU slot. SV OU is the gen I don't really care for, but seeing as it is the CG it's fine if we have a 4th slot. Finally, UU could get some representation here, although it is still somewhat unstable from what I've seen and I'd prefer either SS or SV OU.

 

[Taka]

SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDMONO
SS NDOU
SV NDUBERS

probably the slots i think would work. I think SV OU should definitely be the focus of the WC, especially since the goal of something like this is to propel the metagame forward. We have NDPL to push lower tiers, so I wouldn't stress about something like SV UU/SV RU which might not be in the best states either way atm and have smaller communities. Ubers and Mono have pretty decently sized metagames so dedicating a single slot to each would only help grow the size of the metagame and probably would benefit the community. SS OU is also something ppl have been asking about for some time, and we should probably include one, if not two slots to it, considering it is not only has a large community, but would probably help w regards to recruiting.

 

[Unowndragon]

SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV ND Ubers
SV ND UU
SV ND Monotypes

I think these are good on natdex world cup

 

[adem]

ok my post i typed out and forgot about like 3 days ago got bopped, but a small tldr

snip ag stuff

no one who plays ndag at a competent level actually likes the tier, and the tier doesnt really have a “real” playerbase, compared to ubers currently (who im gonna be comparing it to), so using this tier as the base of the argument against all other lower tiers is disingenuous. uu idrk how well its doing currently but with new gen idt its that bad an option. i heavily support ubers and mono being offered a slot in the tour. also it feels weird you mentioning uu when last year you had a quite solid player who played the tier + some decent support? i understand the sentiment for ag, but using this argument for the other tiers is a little bit bleh.

SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND
SV ND

(quoting your post sagis since thats the one i saw but this is just in general to whoever wants all ou)

this is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea PLEASE do not do this, this really hurts all the smaller regional teams / most non us teams, finding even 6 competent ou players for the region is already a task and a half, 8 is practically impossible, this is an incredibly bad choice for a format and would ruin the tournament play wise. furthermore, building in this tier is already a headache, building for 8 slots, especially if not all players are self supporting / are free enough/ are committed enough to assist in building is unplausible, even for the more accomplished teams. realistically this is not a format we can support, we dont have enough commited and good builders in the tier for all ou to work, especially 8 slots.

my format of choice would personally be 4sv/1ss/1mono/1ubers/1moress or uu or 3sv/2ss/1mono/1ubers, both i dont mind, but any more than 6 ou is unviable and not realistic if you want a good tour. def include ss ndou it is a great meta and it will be fun to revisit it with new eyes.

 

[Redgoop115]

SV OU
SV OU
SV OU
SS OU
SS OU
SV Mono
SV UU
SV Ubers

I understand the importance of having enough of the main metagame in the tour, but I think that it’s important that we give plenty of opportunities for our other tiers who rely on these tours for engagement, UU and Ubers in particular, to develop. I opted for 3 SV & 2 SS because SSOU is a well-liked and preferred tier by many with the current state of SV. This format provides a good balance of SV OU action with our other metas and helps alleviate the problem with finding enough competent OU players that Adem mentioned in his post.

 

[SOMALIA]

I think having 2 SS OU slots is ideal

 

[TheSorcer3r]

On OU Tiers:

After reviewing the discussion both here and in the discord, we've decided on 4 SVOU and 2 SSOU slots for the tournament, but we would like to hear more thoughts on what the "other tiers" should be to round out the rest of the slots. Please continue to let us know your thoughts!

EDIT:
For clarification, we are looking to fill 2 more slots for a total 8

 

[Chris Chien Pao]

As its 4 sv slots and 2 ss slots, i would like to share the other 4 slots which should be
SV UBERS
SV MONOTYPE


Like i said before, i dont feel adding uu slots cuz theres not much activity in uu rn so i would like to go with these 4 for the last slots.Ty and have a nice day.

 

[MudkipBeans]

As its 4 sv slots and 2 ss slots, i would like to share the other 4 slots which should be
SV UBERS
SV MONOTYPE
SS MONOTYPE
SS UBERS

Like i said before, i dont feel adding uu slots cuz theres not much activity in uu rn so i would like to go with these 4 for the last slots.Ty and have a nice day.

Ubers is cool but do not do 2 monotype slots, that’s a terrible terrible idea that has historically never worked. I think it’s just sensible to do either one of each of Ubers, UU, RU and monotype, or cut 1 and do a BO3. UU still needs some work and it really depends on whether or not people want any of RU or Monotype over a BO3.

There’s only 2 slots anyway so I think Ubers gets its own slot and a BO3 to encompass lower tiers might work.

 

[Steorra]

EDIT:
For clarification, we are looking to fill 2 more slots for a total 8

stressing this point

 

[maroon]

definitely think monotype should be one of the last two slots, considering it is the largest om and has been around longer than any other natdex om. probably also has the largest player base of the oms for teams to draw slots off of

 

[Dead by Daylight]

On OU Tiers:

After reviewing the discussion both here and in the discord, we've decided on 4 SVOU and 2 SSOU slots for the tournament, but we would like to hear more thoughts on what the "other tiers" should be to round out the rest of the slots. Please continue to let us know your thoughts!

EDIT:
For clarification, we are looking to fill 2 more slots for a total 8

Wonderful - I'd say we give 1 slot to SV Monotype (as maroon stated, the community has been around for a long time and is far more fleshed out than any other OM), while giving SV NatDex Ubers a shot (since both usage-based tiers (UU and RU) are insanely prone to fluctuations nearer the start of the generation).