RU National Dex RU Metagame Discussion

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
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To Triton_da_g.o.a.t, here you go.

To not make this a one-liner though I kinda wonder how the shifts coming up will change the meta. How many of these mons will go away, will the Swellow meme die off? (Mega Mawile already got banned from UU for instance despite being RU by usage)
Note that I don't have any insider knowledge on how Ladder works, I'm purely guessing here.

Mega Mawile, like you said, and Espartha have already been Quickbanned from ND UU. Out of the rest of the Nightmare Blunt Rotation, Garganacl is probably the most likely to rise, as it is absurdly good in Nat Dex UU, and has 0 reason to be here. Beyond that, Weavile, Mega Lati@s, Serperior, Mega Slowbro, Victini, Mega Sableye, and Kyurem all could rise as they're really good in ND UU as well.

However, Ladder works in mysterious ways and thus I have no idea which broken or shitmon they'll steal, especially since nearly all of those listed threats have a decent chance of finding a footing in UU. In the case of Swellow all logic dictates it should drop, but for all I know Noctowl might be joining it very soon.
 
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pokemon photoset manaphy gif | WiffleGif

NATIONAL DEX RU SHIFTS OUT! NO MORE ALPHA STAGE! After this, the banwave is gonna start bois
Raises:

:hoopa-unbound: From RU to OU
:rillaboom: From RU to OU
:baxcalibur: From RU to UU
:blacephalon: From RU to UU
:blaziken: From RU to UU
:garganacl: From RU to UU
:Hawlucha: From RU to UU
:heracross-mega: From RU to UU
:hydreigon: From RU to UU
:kommo-o: From RU to UU
:maushold: From RU to UU
:mew: From RU to UU
:quaquaval: From RU to UU
:serperior: From RU to UU
:weavile: From RU to UU

Drops:

:crawdaunt: From UU to RU
:ditto: From UU to RU
:manaphy: From UU to RU
:marowak-alola: From UU to RU
:porygon2: From UU to RU
:xurkitree: From UU to RU


:sv/manaphy:
Skipping all of the raises here, Manaphy is probably the wildest drop out of everything else, it's pmuch unwallable unless you really go out of your way to do so. From Z-Rain Dance sets or just the usual Tail Glow 3a with a good variety of items, thanks to the natural bulk that it has it's able to consistantly get a boost and strike back three times harder than anything else. Very little in the tier actually forces it out (Meowscarada or Zeraora mainly) and it just abuses any form of defense present in this tier.


:sv/xurkitree:
I do believe this mon is gonna be a problem, i'd say it's mostly towards how uncompetitive it can be as most matches could probably be decided just by z-hypnosis alone. It does have some checks like Thundurus-T, Zeraora or Scarf Krookodile (yes it's relevant now), it's all gonna come down to a game of luck in most cases.


Honorable Mentions:

:garganacl: fuck you.

:rillaboom: No need for 2 rilla checks now yey.

:weavile: I'm gonna miss this mon but it's def a good thing for it to be gone because of how much of a threat CB alone is.

:scizor: how did this not raise but these two did? :hoopa-unbound: :maushold:
 
In my opinion, priority is a very valuable thing in this tier, and in this gen its even more powerful thanks to tera and the lower defensive level in this tier, this forms a form of speed control that is very effective (also psychic terrain is not here).

Here i will be listing any mon with at least an atom of viability when using a priority attack:

Mach punch: :breloom: :conkeldurr: :infernape:
Sucker punch: :absol-mega: :bisharp::meowscarada:
Bullet punch: :scizor: :metagross: :lucario:
Aqua jet: :crawdaunt::azumarill::barraskewda: :floatzel:
Vacuum wave: :infernape: :lucario:
Ice shard: :mamoswine:
Quick attack: :diggersby:
Extreme speed: :lucario: :zygarde-10%:
Accelerock: :lycanroc-dusk:
Fake out: :mienshao:
First impression: :slither wing:

Also, in terms of durant, do you guys think it can fuck up this tier like every ru it has been in?

feel free to give a suggestions to this list, You can use this list in order to know which mons to use when it comes to priority, a good bunch of these are actually powerful with any type of boost and they can be threats, saviours for tight situations or just helpful.
 
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Runo

How it feels to procrastinate on everything
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
feel free to give a suggestions to this list
fun list. but I think some of these mons ought to be axed

Axe these generally: :Arcanine:, :Zangoose:, :Pangoro:, :Machamp:, :Durant:, :Ambipom:, :Golisopod:
None of these mons are viable here

Mach punch: :infernape: is kinda garbo in my eyes but even if it wasn't I think it's only viable sets are SD or Nasty Plot (Which don't run Priority), :pawmot: would rather run scarf as a more consistent revenge killer
Sucker punch: add :Meowscarada:
Bullet punch: remove :machamp:, :pangoro:, and :lucario:
Aqua jet: remove :golisopod: and :tauros-paldea-aqua:, add :Floatzel: and :Barraskewda:
Vacuum wave: remove this section, there are no viable vacuum wave users
Ice shard: no changes
Quick attack: remove :zangoose:, add :Scizor: and :Diggersby:
Extreme speed: :Remove :Arcanine: and :Entei:
Accelerock: only :Lycanroc-Dusk: is viable here, the rest are ass mons
Fake out: :Iron Hands: doesn't really run Fake Out iirc, replace that with :Mienshao: and :Sableye-Mega: and maybe :Tinkaton:
First impression: remove :Golisopod: and :durant:, add :Slither Wing:


:sv/Durant:
in regards to Durant, it's pretty much outclassed by Scizor. Sure it may be faster and stronger but being frailer and over-reliant on hustle is really really bad. Right off the bat, you're crippled with a base 80% to land your attacks. And combined with the fact that your offensive capabilities are pretty much restricted to choice band or life orb wall breaker only, it makes it really hard to fit Durant on teams imo. Even if you can fit it, that slot is typically reserved for Scizor instead, who has reliable recovery, consistent and accurate priority, access to a quality setup move, access to quality coverage, and access to U-turn.

This is also why Durant rots in RUBL whenever Scizor is in UU
examples:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/durant/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/durant/
 
Welcome to Beta, I'll catch up on the discussions I missed.

There's still Naclstack!
This but unironically. I was discussing just the day before the shifts that Naclstack has really really similar rolls to Big Brother (good riddance btw).

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 111-132 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 93-111 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 91.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


Unfortunately, Eviolite > Leftovers or Boots means that nacl is gonna be worn down far more quickly than garganacl and it also means that it can't heal its way out of rolls.
In my opinion, priority is a very valuable thing in this tier, and in this gen its even more powerful thanks to tera and the lower defensive level in this tier, this forms a form of speed control that is very effective (also psychic terrain is not here).
Psychic terrain is available via Indeedee. Indeedee isn't the most viable Pokemon but it is significantly more viable than some of the stuff you listed. I think Runo's analysis is right for the most part (although infernape is slept on ;( ). The other thing I disagree with is the "lower defensive level". Last Generation RU had priority options but priority was nowhere near as common there as it is here - and keep in mind that tier most definitely has a lower defensive power level than this one. I'd argue that a lot of defensive pokemon are available here to the extent that stall is significantly more viable as a playstyle than in OU or UU relative to the tier (although, nobody brings stall to friendlies).

The reason why priority is so dominant at the moment is that the priority uses are really, really good and can slot it with relative ease without feeling "tacked on". Machamp and Pangoro, for instance, did use priority last gen but that was an option to 1) not be crippled against faster threats and 2) keep something like scarf/specs gardevoir from revenging them.

As of right now, we have: :scizor: :slither-wing: :diggersby: , actual sucker punch and ice shard users (crazy!), and even stuff like Tera Normal Lucario for Extreme Speed. A lot of these options were done by worse pokemon last gen who half-heartedly put them on sets but now it's done by bulkier, faster and stronger pokemon overall.

[broken stuff]
Beta National Dex RU will be significantly balanced thanks to the rise of the 15 Pokemon to OU and UU (rare UU ladder W). Of these 15, I had 13 of these specimens lined up on the chopping block when drafting the slate for the bans. Of course, these were Pokemon I felt warranted examination which isn't the same as them all being broken.

Furthermore, within the next few days, the council quick bans should be up. We are following the National Dex UU philosophy of looking at the most egregious stuff first, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem if we miss anything. All I can say now is that a few threats already have a majority ban from the council with 3 unanimous votes as of writing, hope y'all are excited for the results!
 
A list of great mons even though I haven’t laddered (No one has wut)

:sv/thundurus-therian: GREAT
:sv/sableye-mega: GREAT
:sv/aerodactyl-mega: GREAT
:sv/manaphy: BROKEK
:sv/politoed: GREAT
:sv/zeraora: BROKEK
:sv/altaria-mega: GREAT
:sv/absol-mega: GREAT
:sv/Barraskewda: BROKEK
:sv/porygon2: GREAT
:sv/orthworm: BROKEK BL
:sv/crawdaunt: GREAT
:sv/primarina: GREAT
:sv/latias-mega: BROKEK
:sv/scizor: BROKEK BL
:sv/amoonguss: BROKEK (maybe BL)
:sv/kyurem: BROKEK
:sv/ninetales-alola: GREAT
:sv/marowak-alola: GREAT
:sv/azelf: GREAT
:sv/xurkitree: BROKEK
:sv/cloyster: BROKEK
:sv/meowscarada: BROKEK
:sv/hippowdon: GREAT
:sv/latios: GREAT
:sv/bisharp: GREAT
:sv/moltres-galar: GREAT
:sv/beedrill-mega: GREAT
:sv/azumarill: BROKEK
:sv/zapdos-galar: GREAT
:sv/victini: BROKEK
:sv/lokix: GREAT
:sv/dondozo: BROKEK
:sv/gardevoir-mega: BROKEK
:sv/iron hands: BROKEK
:sv/tornadus-therian: AMAZING, IT’S OWN TIER
:sv/pawmot: GREAT
:sv/rotom-wash: GREAT
:sv/breloom: GREAT
:sv/conkeldurr: GREAT
:sv/stakataka: GREAT
:sv/volcanion: BROKEK BL
:sv/nihilego: BROKEK BL
:sv/volcarona: BROKEK BL
:sv/thundurus: GREAT

Ya it’s a lot
 

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor

After a month of agony in Alpha, the Nat Dex RU Council has completed its vote, and I am pleased to say that the following Abilities and Pokemon have been banned from Nat Dex RU, effective immediately!

:sv/manaphy: :sv/xurkitree: :sv/polteageist: :sv/politoed::damp rock: (Drizzle only)



:sv/manaphy: Manaphy
One of the 2 crazy drops from UU, Manaphy's access to Tail Glow combined with its decent bulk and Speed make it an absolute nightmare to handle. I'd like to list the defensive threats that can take it on, but the only things that can remotely stand up to its boosted attacks, Unaware users such as Dondozo, are either steamrolled by Z-moves or fall victim to Manaphy's coverage. Offensive counterplay is also very limited, as you'd need a Pokemon with over base 100 Speed that is also capable of OHKOing a Water-type with 100/100/100 bulk. Examples such as Meowscarda do exist, but they're in very short supply.

And this isn't even going over how insane Manaphy is in Rain. Coupled with the power boost is an instant form of Recovery in Rain, making defensive checks practically nonexistent while everything has a harder time switching in. Even though we're banning Drizzle, manual Rain will still likely make Manaphy excessively broken.

At any rate, it is abundantly clear that counterplay to this behemoth is too limited, which is why it gets the ban hammer.


:sv/xurkitree: Xurkitree
The other crazy drop, Xurkitree's immense Special Attack already makes it extremely suspect, especially when combined with its usable enough Speed and access to Tail Glow. What unquestionably pushes it over the edge is Z-Hypnosis, as if it lands, Xurkitree gets the opportunity to easily set up Tail Glow and sweep entire teams. The only Pokemon remotely able sponge a boosted Xurkitree's attacks, Unaware users such as the aforementioned Dondozo, must Tera so that they don't fall to Xurkitree's STAB or coverage. And offensive counterplay is once more exceptionally limited, as you'd need something that can both outspeed a +1 base 83 Pokemon and OHKO back, which is largely limited to weather boosted threats such as Floatzel, and a small number of Choice Scarf users such as Krookodile. And worse yet, Hypnosis can easily miss, which while limiting Xurkitree also effectively turns games into coinflips. It's quite clear Xurkitree has no place in Nat Dex RU, and thus is Quickbanned.

:sv/polteageist: Polteageist
At first glance, Polteageist initially wouldn't seem that bad given that it struggles heavily with Dark-types due to its sparce movepool. However, with the advent of Tera, Polteageist can break past most Dark-types using Tera Blast, effectively leaving the only consistent counterplay as Unaware users such as Dondozo my beloved, certain priority users such as Scizor, and weather-boosted threats such as Floatzel. Especially with the latter example leaving the tier as we speak, it shouldn't be surprising that Polteageist will also be quickbanned.

:sv/politoed: :damp rock: Drizzle
Rain teams have been busted ever since SV ND RU became a tier. With powerful sweepers such as Floatzel and Barraskewda, not to mention its new addition in Manaphy, it has become quite apparent that Rain is way too much for the tier to handle. Defensive threats such as Dondozo and Mega Slowbro can check it in the short-term, but unless teams overprepare they'll often fall apart the instant their wall is removed, which is hardly a challenge given the versatile selection of wallbreakers we have available. While there is the option to ban individual abusers of Rain, it's clear that this phenomenon is primarily due to the inherent brokenness of Drizzle + Swift Swim, and even if we were to ban individual abusers we'd still have plenty more to take their place. As a wise man once said, "Rain Rain go away, come again another day".

While these bans and much of the Nightmare Blunt Rotation rising to UU will massively help the meta stabilize, it's apparent that we still have more work to do before the meta can fully be considered balanced.

Here's a list of Pokemon that were discussed by the Council and have a high likelihood of seeing some tiering action in the near future.

:dondozo:
:gallade-mega:
:gardevoir-mega:
:gengar:
:iron hands:
:jirachi:
:kyurem:
:latias: (:latias-mega:)
:latios: (:latios-mega:)
:moltres-galar:
:thundurus:
:thundurus-therian:
:sableye-mega:
:scizor:
:slowbro-galar: -> :slowbro-mega:
:victini:

Otherwise, enjoy the generally improving meta and be sure to have a great day.
 
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Clas

My death was... greatly exaggerated
is a Tiering Contributor

After a month of agony in Alpha, the Nat Dex RU Council has completed its vote, and I am pleased to say that the following Abilities and Pokemon have been banned from Nat Dex RU, effective immediately!

:sv/manaphy: :sv/xurkitree: :sv/polteageist: :sv/politoed::damp rock: (Drizzle only)



:sv/manaphy: Manaphy
One of the 2 crazy drops from UU, Manaphy's access to Tail Glow combined with its decent bulk and Speed make it an absolute nightmare to handle. I'd like to list the defensive threats that can take it on, but the only things that can remotely stand up to its boosted attacks, Unaware users such as Dondozo, are either steamrolled by Z-moves or fall victim to Manaphy's coverage. Offensive counterplay is also very limited, as you'd need a Pokemon with over base 100 Speed that is also capable of OHKOing a Water-type with 100/100/100 bulk. Examples such as Meowscarda do exist, but they're in very short supply.

And this isn't even going over how insane Manaphy is in Rain. Coupled with the power boost is an instant form of Recovery in Rain, making defensive checks practically nonexistent while everything has a harder time switching in. Even though we're banning Drizzle, manual Rain will still likely make Manaphy excessively broken.

At any rate, it is abundantly clear that counterplay to this behemoth is too limited, which is why it gets the ban hammer.


:sv/xurkitree: Xurkitree
The other crazy drop, Xurkitree's immense Special Attack already makes it extremely suspect, especially when combined with its usable enough Speed and access to Tail Glow. What unquestionably pushes it over the edge is Z-Hypnosis, as if it lands, Xurkitree gets the opportunity to easily set up Tail Glow and sweep entire teams. The only Pokemon remotely able sponge a boosted Xurkitree's attacks, Unaware users such as the aforementioned Dondozo, must Tera so that they don't fall to Xurkitree's STAB or coverage. And offensive counterplay is once more exceptionally limited, as you'd need something that can both outspeed a +1 base 83 Pokemon and OHKO back, which is largely limited to weather boosted threats such as Floatzel, and a small number of Choice Scarf users such as Krookodile. And worse yet, Hypnosis can easily miss, which while limiting Xurkitree also effectively turns games into coinflips. It's quite clear Xurkitree has no place in Nat Dex RU, and thus is Quickbanned.

:sv/polteageist: Polteageist
At first glance, Polteageist initially wouldn't seem that bad given that it struggles heavily with Dark-types due to its sparce movepool. However, with the advent of Tera, Polteageist can break past most Dark-types using Tera Blast, effectively leaving the only consistent counterplay as Unaware users such as Dondozo my beloved, certain priority users such as Scizor, and weather-boosted threats such as Floatzel. Especially with the latter example leaving the tier as we speak, it shouldn't be surprising that Polteageist will also be quickbanned.

:sv/politoed: :damp rock: Drizzle
Rain teams have been busted ever since SV ND RU became a tier. With powerful sweepers such as Floatzel and Barraskewda, not to mention its new addition in Manaphy, it has become quite apparent that Rain is way too much for the tier to handle. Defensive threats such as Dondozo and Mega Slowbro can check it in the short-term, but unless teams overprepare they'll often fall apart the instant their wall is removed, which is hardly a challenge given the versatile selection of wallbreakers we have available. While there is the option to ban individual abusers of Rain, it's clear that this phenomenon is primarily due to the inherent brokenness of Drizzle + Swift Swim, and even if we were to ban individual abusers we'd still have plenty more to take their place. As a wise man once said, "Rain Rain go away, come again another day".

While these bans and much of the Nightmare Blunt Rotation rising to UU will massively help the meta stabilize, it's apparent that we still have more work to do before the meta can fully be considered balanced.

Here's a list of Pokemon that were discussed by the Council and have a high likelihood of seeing some tiering action in the near future.

:dondozo:
:gallade-mega:
:gardevoir-mega:
:gengar:
:iron hands:
:jirachi:
:kyurem:
:latias: (:latias-mega:)
:latios: (:latios-mega:)
:moltres-galar:
:thundurus:
:thundurus-therian:
:sableye-mega:
:scizor:
:slowbro-galar: -> :slowbro-mega:
:victini:

Otherwise, enjoy the generally improving meta and be sure to have a great day.
in future, tag Kris (only tea and drizzle ban since former two are uubl)
 
The Metagame Today (?)

Post-Alpha National Dex RU is a completely different metagame from what it was last month. Part of it has to do with the fact that the rises and bans have created a metagame less centralised around all-out offence. However, I am here to elaborate on a few Pokemon that were initially overshadowed or more niche that are now a similarly suffocating presence around offense: this time of a bulkier variety.

National Dex RU is no stranger to banning bulkier Pokemon. Deoxys-Defense, Aggron-Mega and Tangrowth were banned in generation 8 as they lead (or were believed to lead) to an overly centralised metagame that placed extreme emphasis on specific balance cores. DeoD also acted as a win-condition in its own right with its Cosmic Power and Nasty Plot sets, which further contributed to the pre-eminence of the aforementioned cores. As SSJ pointed out above, we currently have 5-6 banworthy threads on the radar that have defensive merit with at least 4 of those having a place on stall (although currently balance abuses all 6 the best).

Without further ado, here is the triad dominating NDRU now.

NDRU in a nutshell.png

The Triad

I should have expected Iron Hands and Dondozo to get out of hand sooner or later. During the barrage of rain teams and hyper offence, I expected Iron Hands and Dondozo to transition into relatively healthy elements of the metagame as they, on paper, helped keep a lot of stupid threats in check had they not ended up being problematic themselves. I couldn't have miscalculated further. Kyurem was something that I wanted to keep unbanned, despite knowing full well it was not gonna last long. Two main reasons for this decision: it was outsped and outgunned in the previous, more offensive metagame, and it was something nice to have in the event something overwhelming popped up on balance.

:SV/Dondozo:
Speaking of which...

Dondozo is very, very centralising right now. Like rain in Alpha, you pretty much need water immunity or an extremely bulky water resist to stand up to this thing. Unlike Rain, you need to slap an even narrower range of water immunes to match up well - Seismitoad on every team just doesn't cut it. You are forced to run a Pokemon that resists or is immune to both Fighting and Water attacks. This is a small list of Pokemon, including Slowbro (and its Mega), Mantine, Vaporeon and Jellicent. Even then, the right tera type can thwart would-be answers. Tera Dragon flips the type chart against Grass/Electric checks, whilst Tera Steel blanks Grasses and blows Fairy and Ice checks out the water. Tera Steel also happens to blank a lot of Pokemon that would otherwise Calm Mind alongside Dondozo (notably most slowtins sets) whilst its regular Water typing is sufficient to blank Scald + Ice beam Slowbro. Amoongus, a theoretical check, does little vs Tera Dragon and you might as well be down a Pokemon if Amoongus is your Tera steel Dondozo answer.

If Dondozo were to be gone, physical attackers would boon. However, there's a possibility that they can veer too hard into the broken territory. Mega Gallade and Victini (for example) are only held back by the fact that they lose to Dondozo 1v1. Threats like Scizor, Slither Wing and Ceruledge would rise to the fore as they greatly appreciate the big don gone. Defensive waters that were used to check it (like Mantine and Jellicent) would experience a noticeable decline in usage whilst competing water types (like Quagsire) would see an uptick.

TLDR; Fish too big for this pond​

:sv/Iron-hands:

This thing is a juggernaut. I have 1v1'd an entire rain team (including Manaphy and Floatzel) with Tera Water Hands. It's a similar case to Dondozo in that this thing combines immense bulk with serious game-ending potential. Iron Hands is also quite slippery with the ability to terastalise into types like Water, Fairy, Flying, Ghost, you name it. This allows it to thwart would-be earthquakes either from ground types or strong physical/special attackers. However, even without terastalisation, Iron Hands can fire Fighting STAB (CC or Drain Punch) or snipe switch-ins with Ice Punch. Iron Hands might be the hardest of the three to sell a pro-ban argument for since it has qualities that could, on paper, make the metagame healthier. For one, it's a bulky fighting type that can stomach hits from a wide range of dark types and functions as a neat pivot with an Assault Vest. A Pokemon that can check dark types and Kyurem fulfils a niche very few Pokemon can replicate. Remember, not many Assault Vest users in RU can boast living a super effective choice specs Fluttermane Moonblast and OHKO cleanly with a heavy slam.

The most convincing no-ban argument would be that we haven't had a metagame with Iron Hands without Kyurem and Dondozo forcing teams to be built in a specific manner. That is arguable and I will admit, I have looked through that lens for the previous votes (Gardevoir-Mega, Gengar, etc.). However, the metagame would be overall a lot freer with Iron Hands out of the equation. Iron Hands is over-centralising since it forces a lot of Pokemon to run specific tera types to check Iron Hands both in builder and in-game. Furthermore, the variety of the sets and the ability to snowball quickly with a very rigged risk-reward ratio make Iron Hands overpowering as well for the metagame.

TLDR; this thing can eat anything and slap back hard​


:ss/Kyurem:

Nobody is surprised that this thing is overwhelming for an RU tier. It has been banned in every iteration of RU that it was allowed in: ORAS, SM and SS. However, why ban Kyurem over other stronger and more offensive dragons like the Lati twins, Mega Altaria or Salamence? The way the metagame is shaping up with bulky offence and balance teams thanks to Dondozo and friends means that it is easier to fit defensive checks to the other dragons listed. Those same defensive builds don't particularly enjoy going toe-to-toe with one of the best balance breakers in the game period.

There are plenty of ways to go about this but the classic set of Freeze Dry, Earth Power, Roost and Substitute is pretty straightforward. Thanks to terastalisation, you can offset pretty much any weakness you have in exchange for solid neutral typing. Tera Water in particular makes Scizor look like a chump. There are a few other sets that are just as deadly. Dragon Dance might seem like a Baxcalibur knock-off but this very set has been used to PP stall Pex in OU last gen. Likewise, 3 attacks with Never-melt Ice, and Specs are still proficient in muscling through teams. The other thing that also makes Kyurem overwhelming is how slow the tier has gotten with all the rises and bans. 317 isn't great but it's definitely possible to run modest and still be in a good position to outspeed the crowded base 80s. Alternatively, you can outrun the base 85s with timid and have enough EVs left for 404 HP subs, max special attack and change.

Kyurem leaving means little for offensive competition since it's strictly better than most ice types and most dragon types have their own well-defined niches. I guess Mamoswine would get to see a bit more usage and things would appreciate the 317 tier being significantly less important (see Jirachi). Not to mention bulky waters could be a lot easier to slot onto teams without overreaching to have kyurem counterplay options.

TLDR: Kyurem busted down RU's door, said "it's Kyurem time" and then kyuremed all over RU​


Miscellaneous Threats

:ss/victini: :ss/gardevoir-mega: :ss/gallade-mega:

If we want a healthy metagame, it will involve these three getting the boot at some point in this metagame. Victini, like in UU, is a multi-faceted threat with extreme breaking power. Whilst Dondozo comfortably 1v1s, it doesn't like switching into Banded bolt strike, Tera fire Sun boosted Banded V-Create, stored power or a random special attacking Victini. Compared to UU overall, there are fewer consistent answers to the traditional sets giving Victini the luxury to run more experimental options. Omniboosting is something that the council is taking a keen interest in the other abuser: Jirachi. However, I feel Victini is more deserving of action as it doesn't need to jump through the same hoops as Jirachi to fit coverage.

I wanted to see how Mega Gardevoir would do following the first wave of bans. I did initially intend to ban this but I figured it might be worth giving it a shot since, at the time, I thought Slowbro-Dalar + Jirachi were sufficient enough answers. Two caveats: Jirachi has to fiddle with rolls and slowbro-galar isn't slowbro-galar half the time. I mentioned that the metagame got slower when discussing Kyurem's brokenness and I will echo the same sentiments here. The difference is that Mega Gardevoir is working off the universal baseline for a "good" speed stat: the golden 100s.

Gallade-Mega I wanted gone from day 1. I suppose there's the argument you could make that the base form of gallade is stronger than its mega-evolution thanks to the recent sharpness buff. Nevertheless, you cannot understate the value that Mega Gallade's speed brings forth to the table. It's like Mega Medicham v Medicham. Band Medi technically out-damages its mega but the speed and the ability to switch moves are insane. Likewise, tying with the base 110s is significantly better than tying with the base 80s (and trust me, scarf gallade has excruciating 50/50s). However, it has its flaws here that can be taken advantage of. Mega Gallade does not enjoy Mega Sableye as well as other defensive stalwarts such as tera fairy slowbro nor does it enjoy the abundance of faster Pokemon (e.g. alakazam), scarfers (fellow base 110s lati@s and Gengar) and priority. None of these issues are insurmountable, plus Mega Sableye's mere existence here is contentious. However, they did help create a more ambivalent picture of Gallade amongst the council and members of the community.


? This was supposed to be a 2 parter, with part 1 commenting on the rises + bans plus their impact on the tier. However, I felt that this section deserved to be published more. I'll try to finish the write-up soon but I may delay or heavily modify it.
 
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Posting the long-awaited ban slate for National Dex RU Beta on behalf of Lupla. Apologies for the delay in getting the verdict out.


Finishing up with our banwave for beta before moving on to suspects, the National Dex RU Council voting is up, banning Dondozo, Iron Hands, Kyurem, Gardevoir-Mega and Victini!

:sv/dondozo:
:sv/iron hands:
:sv/kyurem:
:sv/gardevoir-mega:
:sv/victini:

i swear this is RU...

1680532093239.png

:sv/dondozo:

From the start, Dondozo has been arguably the best Water type in the tier and an outright centralizing force. Its absurd bulk allowed it to tank hits from virtually every physical attacker in the tier from Rain-boosted Floatzel and Barraskewda to absurd choiced attacks like Terrakion's Close Combat. Additionally, Unaware prevents set-up from the likes of M-Gallade and Dragon Dance Aero from breaking through. Dondozo, in response, threatens to set itself up with Curse and snowball through the opposition. Further options such as Tera Dragon flip the match-up against Meowscarada and Zerora and make checking Dondozo a nightmare. Despite having middling special bulk and only Rest for recovery, it is unanimously agreed to be too much for the tier.



:sv/iron hands:

Like Dondozo, Iron Hands is a juggernaut that can sponge hits and retaliate hard. However, Iron Hands places immediate pressure on the opposition with a synergistic dual typing and Swords Dance to take opportunities of the many switches it forces. For many teams, multiple Pokemon are needed to take down Iron Hands as it could heal off damage with Drain Punch. Ground types and Tera Ground users are shaky checks thanks to Fighting STAB and Ice Punch. Nonetheless, Terastalisation contributed to ban with options such as Fairy, Water and Ghost upending poor matchups. Although Assault Vest and Choice Band are viable sets, the Swords Dance set was deemed deemed too powerful for the RU tier and thus Iron Hands is banned.


:sv/kyurem:

Kyurem has made its second RU appearance to torment players once again. Not only are players forced to guess the Kyurem set (either Specs or SubRoost) but they also have to out-offensive it before it has too many opportunities to wreak havoc. SubRoost sets took advantage of passive walls such as Slowbro, Moltres and Hippowdon. The combination of Freeze Dry and Earth Power enables Kyurem to become an effectively unwallable threat with only select Steel types (Scizor and Orthworm) being able to withstand the coverage with the rest folding to Earth Power or lacking reliable recovery. Terastalisation added an extra dimension to Kyurem with Steel helping against Fairies and letting it set up on Scizor. Whilst Specs was less common, its immense damage output thoroughly overwhelmed the opposition before they could respond. which more than made up for damage from hazards and being locked into one move. Thanks to these attributes, Kyurem joins the RUBL club.



:sv/gardevoir-mega:

With the only proper switches to this mon being Specially Defensive Jirachi, Slowking, Slowbro-Galar and Victini, it solidified itself as one of the best wallbreakers around. Base 100 is too fast for something that barely has any safe checks to begin with. Mega Gardevoir was able to effortlessly tear bulkier teams apart upon entry which is made easier due to the excellent offensive pivots in this tier (Zeraora, Meowscarada or Scizor). The few checks it has need to be healthy enough to actually check it. Jirachi risked rolls on Mystical Fire, Slowking could only force it out after bringing a faster mon with Teleport, Slowbro-Galar had to stay in base and Victini relied on resisting its moves. Everything else was cleanly OHKO’d or 2HKO’d.


:sv/victini:

Currently being suspect tested in National Dex UU, Victini plays the same here except with even fewer options for counterplay. Z-Celebrate Victini rolls over both offense or defense if they don’t have a healthy Swampert, Slowtin or Latitwin. This set alone would have been too much for the tier. However, Victini also has the ability to run Choice Band, Choice Scarf and Heavy Duty Boots sets well and all of these sets have differing counterplay. The final nail in the coffin for Victini was the removal of its offensive checks thanks to shifts and bans during Alpha. With 4 extremely powerful sets that are hard to tell apart from team preview, Victini is too much to account for in National Dex RU and is therefore banned.


Here's a list of Pokemon that were discussed by the Council and have a high chance of seeing tiering action after Beta.

:gallade-mega:

:gengar:

:latias:
(
:latias-mega:
)
:latios:
(
:latios-mega:
)
:jirachi:

:moltres-galar:

:slowbro-galar:
->
:slowbro-mega:

:thundurus:

:thundurus-therian:

:scizor:


Tagging the lovely Kris to implement these changes whenever they're available.
 
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Runo

How it feels to procrastinate on everything
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Speaking of things that should be on there, I wanna talk about some strong stuff I don't see a lot of mentions about.

:Thundurus-therian::sv/Ninetales-Alola::sv/Klefki::moltres-galar:
Screens is once again a broken HO style, filled to the brim with tons of abusers made even worse by the fact that a ton of already broken Pokemon such Porygon-Z, Moltres-G, Salamence, and Thundurus-T can easily be fit on these HO teams and wreak havoc in just a short amount of time. Typically these mons can be dispatched with priority or Scarf users, but such counterplay is removed under screens thanks to it augmenting their bulk to absurd levels. And as the defensive counterplay is a lot more specific to each unique HO mon, Light Clay should be banned in the next slate along with several HO mons. It's my opinion that this will improve the meta tenfold.

:sv/Salamence:
Salamence is expectedly a beast on HO, being one the best Dragon Dancers in the tier. Sporting incredible power to snowball hard with Moxie and enough speed to outrun the entire unscarfed metagame at +1, it is truely a force to be reckoned with. Salamence's typing and solid bulk also lets it setup fairy easy and makes it a great glue mon on HO. Z-Crystals like Flyium or Dragonium are also a big deal on this mon since it can nuke nearly every single mon in the metagame at +1. Dondozo being banned only amplified this, since teams no longer have a splashable check to Salamence. Very broken in my opinion and it should be banned.

:sv/Toxtricity:
Yeah so Toxtricity is super broken thanks to Terastallization. Tera Normal combined with Boomburst is incredibly threatening, forcing a very sturdy Steel, Ghost, or Rock on every build. And with Garganacl leaving the tier, it's a lot harder to find reliable switch-ins to this mon since Steels like Jirachi and Mega Aggron absolutely hate being hit with a Specs boosted Overdrive. Bulky Ghost and Rock types are also really hard to come by so it's looking like the only "true" answer to Toxtricity is Mega Steelix. I think it's simply too constraining on the builder and should be banned at some point.

:sv/Alakazam:
Alakazam is stupidly fast, hits incredibly hard, and packs impressive coverage to the point where I genuinely believe that it's unwallable unless you're running some heat like Muk-Alola. It's a lot better now than it was in the Alpha Stage thanks to some major threats to it leaving (Hydreigon, Weavile, and Blacephalon). Futhermore; some of Alakazam's competition in Victini and Gardevoir-Mega are banned so now it's even more splashable than before. Definitely a mon worth keeping an eye out for.


I like Meowscarada a lot. It has a lot of great utility moves in Sucker Punch, Spikes, U-Turn, and Knock Off but also has great natural speed and solid power. It's a very versatile mon right now with a whole bunch of different sets. HO lead on Hazard Stack, Heavy Duty Boots pivot, Choice Band wallbreaker, and Choice Scarf (that one being my personal favorite). It definitely deserves to be used far more than similar mons such as Zarude or the defensive Wo-Chien.

:sv/seismitoad:
I feel like Seismitoad's usefulness is dwindling ever since Drizzle was banned. It was only made more apparent when Dondozo was running this tier with an iron fist, and Seismitoad being utterly helpless against it despite being immune to Water. With both Dondozo and Rain banned, I feel that there is little reason to use Seismitoad over the bulkier Swampert. Access to Flip Turn is super helpful to generate momentum for teams so I don't really see why most teams would give that up for Seismitoad's Water Absorb and Knock Off. That's not to say that Seismitoad is bad, but it's not as good as before and the competition is catching up with it.

:Regidrago:
Is this mon still considered good? I know it got hyped up a lot, but I haven't seen it in awhile

Also today is March so that means Tier Shifts. I'm gonna be dumping some of my teams here before UU fucks with this meta again. (Click teams for pastes)

:conkeldurr::zeraora::scizor::moltres::swampert::meowscarada:
:alomomola::amoonguss::quagsire::jirachi::sableye-mega::mandibuzz:
:cetitan::ninetales-alola::arctozolt::altaria-mega::moltres::swampert:
:Hippowdon::Dracozolt::Scizor::Moltres::Meowscarada::Alakazam:
:tornadus::bisharp::keldeo::nidoking::thundurus-therian::shuckle:
:toxtricity::iron jugulis::swampert::scizor::moltres::gallade-mega:
:Golurk::Meowscarada::Cobalion::Crobat::Primarina::Mamoswine:
:pawmot::jirachi::moltres::swampert::Zarude::Scizor:
:pidgeot-mega::pawmot::Slowking::Krookodile::Scizor::Weezing-Galar:
:Azelf::Gengar::Zarude::Scizor::Salamence::Azumarill:
:Ribombee::Azelf::Nidoking::Thundurus-Therian::Scizor::Sharpedo-Mega:
:Azelf::Ninetales-Alola::Cobalion::Salamence::Veluza::Ceruledge:
I have more on my PC so i'll edit them in when I get home Done
 
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:xy/porygon-z:

i just want to talk about this cuz no one did here, i think this mon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier, adap 135 spa + z conver + wide movepool = an easy sweep against unprepared teams, and the fact you cant always prepare for it sucks, it can be shadow ball or boltbeam and both are effective and have different (viable) checks, plus it can use sub or np or a 3rd coverage move to cause more terror, its variety, effectiveness and the many viable support options it can have from its teammates like screens, hazards and other chip utility such as volturn proves how just this mon is very good and easy to use which imo makes it almost unhealthy, idt think it is that unhealthy for the tier but i think it needs to get considered for the radar because of how ridiculous it can be (it is literally a slightly stronger vic with better moves and (a) better type(s) that is just not as bulky)
 
:xy/porygon-z:

i just want to talk about this cuz no one did here, i think this mon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier, adap 135 spa + z conver + wide movepool = an easy sweep against unprepared teams, and the fact you cant always prepare for it sucks, it can be shadow ball or boltbeam and both are effective and have different (viable) checks, plus it can use sub or np or a 3rd coverage move to cause more terror, its variety, effectiveness and the many viable support options it can have from its teammates like screens, hazards and other chip utility such as volturn proves how just this mon is very good and easy to use which imo makes it almost unhealthy, idt think it is that unhealthy for the tier but i think it needs to get considered for the radar because of how ridiculous it can be (it is literally a slightly stronger vic with better moves and (a) better type(s) that is just not as bulky)
i got swept by this thing in a tour
 

Clas

My death was... greatly exaggerated
is a Tiering Contributor
late but BIG GAINS (rip mbee tho)
:beedrill-mega:Mega Beedrill
:ceruledge:Ceruledge
:orthworm:Orthworm
:sableye-mega:Mega Sableye
:cresselia:Cresselia
:gastrodon:Gastrodon
:gyarados:Gyarados
:heracross-mega:Mega Heracross
:maushold:Maushold
:swellow:Swellow
:tangrowth:Tangrowth
:venusaur:Venusaur

:ss/cresselia:
Cresselia is a Pokemon I think will have a major impact, but quite simply with only one set - Tera Poison Calm Mind
Cresselia @ Leftovers / Ability Shield
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
If you don't know already, this set is very dumb. You're immune to all Toxic status except pre-Tera and Salazzle (lol who), and it can quickly streamroll through teams thanks to having only one weakness in Psychic. While Mold Breaker Pokemon like Haxorus can answer it theoretically, it can be countered by Ability Shield existing too. I don't see this staying for the month. If you fear Clear Smog, then you can run Tera Steel instead to do the same thing with more weaknesses instead, most notably from Fire-types like Infernape and Nasty Plot Rotom-Heat.

:ss/gastrodon:
Genuinely a fantastic gain for the tier. Not only is it a splashable special wall with Stealth Rock and Spikes, but it also has the ability to answer a plethora of the current metagame (including Z-Conversion Porygon-Z thanks to Clear Smog + Earth Power). Sticky Hold on Heavy-Duty Boots sets is also viable, most notably on Stall teams, thanks to a mix of Tangrowth dropping and generally Stall being quite strong now anyway despite losing Mega Sableye since Mega Slowbro and Mega Latias (plus Latios by extension) take the stage instead, along with the aforementioned Cresselia. While it does contend with Swampert, it is notably a lot better on teams who don't need Flip Turn as much due to Gastrodon having the same utility, plus Recover and an actual ability (in fact, two).

:ss/gyarados:
why did this drop
Anyway, uh, oh boy. This Pokemon can do a LOT offensively, from Flyinium Z to Tera Grass/Ground to surprise Tera Dragon??? so uh yeah. Somehow, I don't see this being something that sticks for majorly long. At LEAST it has quite a few checks in Mega Slowbro, BoltBeam Mega Latias, Tangrowth, Choice Scarf Thundurus-Therian and a few others, but even those have to be careful of the sets mentioned above.

:ss/heracross-mega:
we know what this does, moving on

:sv/maushold:
same with you, but youre bad

:ss/swellow:
IT DROPPED FINALLY i still fear tera normal specs boomburst and it could genuinely be broken, we'll just have to see.

:ss/tangrowth:
I am SO GLAD this dropped, this thing has so much utility and set variety that it could probably answer 60-70% of the metagame alone. Sleep Powder, Knock Off, Leech Seed, Earthquake, Power Whip, Energy Ball, Toxic, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, you name it. It even has good item flexibility in Rocky Helmet, Assault Vest, resist berries, Leftovers, and potentially even Eject Button and Red Card thanks to Regenerator. It's Tera Type flexibility is also through the roof, with Tera Water, Steel, Ground, Dragon, Poison, and probably more depending on the team. Instant GOAT.

:ss/venusaur:
MAYBE Ninetales Sun teams can make use of this? But otherwise it's just bad right now. Tera Fire Weather Ball at least sounds good.
 
I know this Pokémon isn't the most meta, but I think Klinklang is kinda underrated. Great attack and speed, great defense, and a respectable spdef. If allowed to setup a shift gear he can be pretty scary if the enemy doesn't have anything for a gear grind or wild charge.
 

Runo

How it feels to procrastinate on everything
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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if the enemy doesn't have anything for a gear grind or wild charge.
Almost every team carries a sturdy Steel resist thanks to Scizor being everywhere in the metagame. There are also a ton of mons that prevent Klinklang from setting up easily such as :Moltres:, :Salamence:, :Gallade-Mega:, :Gastrodon:, :Cobalion:, :Hippowdon:, :Volcanion:, and 40+ mons that can just naturally pressure it. It's not worth justifying over more consistent options like :Scizor: or :Cobalion:
 
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Dorron

BLU LOBSTAH
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Hi everyone! Council has voted on the following threats.

1678570259993.png


:ss/ninetales-alola: :light-clay:
The presence of Light Clay in the tier has turned it to a "Use it or lose" scenario. Its superb utility is beyond balanced in the tier, making many setup sweepers unstoppable when setting up behind screens and leading every game to making the optimal play every turn, which often required double switching, or losing to a random setup sweeper, which oftenly made use of Tera to make counterplay even harder. Ninetales-A was its main abuser thanks to access to Aurora Veil, a great Speed tier and utility moves in Encore and Pain Split, heavily increasing its longevity in the game.

:ss/jirachi: :ss/porygon-z:
Victini's ban and these two share many things. An omniboost is pretty dangerous in the right hands and these two threats have proven themselves to be too much for the tier. Jirachi would flinch to death to many should-be answers thanks to Iron Head or KO them with Stored Power after a few flinches, as well as boost its Special Attack even further with Charge Beam or Calm Mind.
Porygon-Z would change its typing to Electric, Ice or Ghost and spam its Adaptability-boosted new STAB attack. Its increased bulk would allow it to take more hits and restore HP with Recover, making it even more long lasting than the majority of sweepers. No Pokémon in the tier takes less than 50% of both Ice Beam and Thunderbolt after the boost and Shadow Ball can be as spammable.

:ss/gyarados: :ss/salamence:
Dragon Dance boosters with either Moxie to snowball or Intimidate to ease the set up. Both are extremely hard to KO and revenge kill after a few boosts and are pretty hard to wall thanks to their access to strong STAB Z-Moves in Bounce and Fly. I could write many paragraphs about how these two Pokemon are unbalanced but the players already have experienced dealing with both of them.

:ss/gallade-mega:
Faster and stronger than most of the tier, great offensive typing that covers its only resist with Knock Off and access to Swords Dance and great STAB options to break past a lot of teams. The few answers, most of them not optimal, are usually forced to use their Tera to check other partners thus giving Gallade an easier time to punch holes. Its Rocks resist allows it to switch in many times more freely than many other threats and its many coverage options force the opponent to spend turns on scouting its set which gives it free setup turns.

:ss/latios: :ss/latios-mega:
Choice Specs Draco Meteor Latios only answer is using a Fairy-type, most of which are 2HKOed by Pyshic/Psyshock or are simply unviable. Steel-types besides Scizor lack reliable recovery and can be hit by Mystical Fire. Defensive pivots like Slowking can have their item Tricked and become useless for the rest of the game. Latios-Mega is strong enough to be a threat for the whole metagame with Roost 3 Attacks sets and doesn't have to rely on damage boosting sources like its item or boosting moves to hit hard. Even though the latter wasn't voted to be banned, nobody is going to miss it.


We deemed necessary to have a final banwave right before the Kickoff tournament so we can have a better development of the tier during it.

TL;DR we are banning Jirachi, Gallade-Mega, Latios (and subsequently Latios-Mega), Gyarados, Salamence, Porygon-Z and Light Clay. Tagging Kris and Marty for implementation :)
 

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