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OM National Dex Other Metagames Megathread
- Thread starter hidin
- Start date
ladies and gentlemen, it's time for some ND NFE news
Firstly, please welcome Cao Jie to the ND NFE council!
next, since week 1 of NDOTSL is now over, slate time!
*SUS=Suspect
DNB=Do Not Ban
You might've noticed that blinkboy hasn't voted this time round (and a couple of other times as well). They have been absent for a while now, and we don't know when they'll be back. As such, moving forward, the votes of only 4 of us will be considered until they're back (that is, they can then reclaim their council position)
Qwilfish-Hisui is being suspected!
hisuian qwilfish has been a mon of controversy for many players, and many believe it to be a problematic element for the tier, including most (if not all) of the council. spikes hqwil is an excellent hazard setter and at times can take over the hazard game, especially if you're running taunt+spikes, or even SD+spikes+2a, the latter of which can act as a dangerous sweeper (or cleaner, whatever u call it). you are either resistant to, or neutral to the most common forms of priority (ice shard, grassy glide, mach punch), so it's not easy to revenge kill you either, especially since there are only a few mons which outspeed it thanks to its good speed tier in base 85. besides, thanks to intimidate and your nice typing (grass resist, toxic immune) ensures you get opportunities to set up as well. that's fine and all, but according to most people what really pushes it over the edge, are z crystals. SD waterium z sets get rid of your common "answers", mons like piloswine, gabite, crocalor, tinkatuff, opposing hqwil (lol), etc. darkium z sets can be run to have an easier time handling mons like gabite, whereas poisonium ones ensure you have an easier time against mons like gurdurr (and dunsparce).
however, eviolite sets are not unbeatable. they can be stopped by bulky ground types like gabite, piloswine and marshtomp, and mons like dunsparce and crocalor also give it a hard time. tinkaton can cripple it with thunder wave+encore. Z sets forego (eviolite) bulk, so they have a harder time setting up, and are also revenge killed easier by mons like electabuzz / frogadier / scarf lampent etc.
next week.
we discussed how to proceed with the suspect a bit, and decided that holding a vote among qualified playerbase, currently the existing council members+NDOTSL ND NFE starters will be the best option. below is the list of eligible voters (subject to change)
A majority of 50%+1 will be required to ban Hisuian Qwilfish, meaning 5/8 ban votes.
Voting will close sometime before Sunday, October 15th at 11:59 PM GMT -4 (before next round of NDOTSL goes up).
Firstly, please welcome Cao Jie to the ND NFE council!
next, since week 1 of NDOTSL is now over, slate time!
| zastra | Velcroc | sealoo | Cao Jie | FINAL VERDICT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Qwilfish-Hisui | SUS | SUS | BAN | SUS | SUSPECT |
| Rhydon | SUS | DNB | DNB | SUS | NO ACTION |
*SUS=Suspect
DNB=Do Not Ban
You might've noticed that blinkboy hasn't voted this time round (and a couple of other times as well). They have been absent for a while now, and we don't know when they'll be back. As such, moving forward, the votes of only 4 of us will be considered until they're back (that is, they can then reclaim their council position)
Qwilfish-Hisui is being suspected!
hisuian qwilfish has been a mon of controversy for many players, and many believe it to be a problematic element for the tier, including most (if not all) of the council. spikes hqwil is an excellent hazard setter and at times can take over the hazard game, especially if you're running taunt+spikes, or even SD+spikes+2a, the latter of which can act as a dangerous sweeper (or cleaner, whatever u call it). you are either resistant to, or neutral to the most common forms of priority (ice shard, grassy glide, mach punch), so it's not easy to revenge kill you either, especially since there are only a few mons which outspeed it thanks to its good speed tier in base 85. besides, thanks to intimidate and your nice typing (grass resist, toxic immune) ensures you get opportunities to set up as well. that's fine and all, but according to most people what really pushes it over the edge, are z crystals. SD waterium z sets get rid of your common "answers", mons like piloswine, gabite, crocalor, tinkatuff, opposing hqwil (lol), etc. darkium z sets can be run to have an easier time handling mons like gabite, whereas poisonium ones ensure you have an easier time against mons like gurdurr (and dunsparce).however, eviolite sets are not unbeatable. they can be stopped by bulky ground types like gabite, piloswine and marshtomp, and mons like dunsparce and crocalor also give it a hard time. tinkaton can cripple it with thunder wave+encore. Z sets forego (eviolite) bulk, so they have a harder time setting up, and are also revenge killed easier by mons like electabuzz / frogadier / scarf lampent etc.
next week.we discussed how to proceed with the suspect a bit, and decided that holding a vote among qualified playerbase, currently the existing council members+NDOTSL ND NFE starters will be the best option. below is the list of eligible voters (subject to change)
A majority of 50%+1 will be required to ban Hisuian Qwilfish, meaning 5/8 ban votes.
Voting will close sometime before Sunday, October 15th at 11:59 PM GMT -4 (before next round of NDOTSL goes up).
Last edited:
After further review, this suspect is now canceled. The reqs are not adequate to constitute a qualified voter list, as being picked to play a tier does not say anything about your knowledge of it, especially since performance is not even taken into account. The precedent mentioned for this process (SV NFE H-Qwilfish suspect test) is actually not a precedent, as only players that, quoting: "won a minimum of 3 games and went even or positive" were allowed to vote for this suspect testladies and gentlemen, it's time for some ND NFE news
Firstly, please welcome Cao Jie to the ND NFE council!
next, since week 1 of NDOTSL is now over, slate time!
zastra Velcroc sealoo Cao Jie FINAL VERDICT Qwilfish-Hisui SUS SUS BAN SUS SUSPECT Rhydon SUS DNB DNB SUS NO ACTION
*SUS=Suspect
DNB=Do Not Ban
You might've noticed that blinkboy hasn't voted this time round (and a couple of other times as well). They have been absent for a while now, and we don't know when they'll be back. As such, moving forward, the votes of only 4 of us will be considered until they're back (that is, they can then reclaim their council position)
Qwilfish-Hisui is being suspected!
however, eviolite sets are not unbeatable. they can be stopped by bulky ground types like gabite, piloswine and marshtomp, and mons like dunsparce and crocalor also give it a hard time. tinkaton can cripple it with thunder wave+encore. Z sets forego (eviolite) bulk, so they have a harder time setting up, and are also revenge killed easier by mons like electabuzz / frogadier / scarf lampent etc.
we discussed how to proceed with the suspect a bit, and decided that holding a vote among qualified playerbase, currently the existing council members+NDOTSL ND NFE starters will be the best option. below is the list of eligible voters (subject to change)
A majority of 50%+1 will be required to ban Hisuian Qwilfish, meaning 5/8 ban votes.
Voting will close sometime before Sunday, October 15th at 11:59 PM GMT -4 (before next round of NDOTSL goes up).
That being said, the ND NFE council is not disallowed to take action on Qwilfish-H if they believe it is necessary to do so. Conducting a survey to gather opinions from the community is a possibility if the council feel that a quick ban is not warranted. If they want to conduct an other suspect test, please let me know before announcing it (and this goes for any ladderless NDOTs) as I want to make sure the suspect process meet the tiering standards I expect from them.
Completely agree. Let's talk ND NFE. With the recent H-Qwilfish vote cancellation solidifying the fact H-Qwilfish is here to stay I think its time we start discussing some threats that I think will be staples of the metagame. The most slept on of these, in my opinion, being Raboot. This mon is simply incredible in the current meta.. For starters, Raboot absolutely wrecks common Servine/Gurdurr structures with the right set. It can infamously beat Mareanie by using normal z to hit back with a boosted Z move! Another big advantage Raboot offers is being an incredible answer to sun, tanking hits from Weepinbell, Tangela, etc with ease. This is really just the tip of the iceberg, as such I think it's time we start seriously considering Raboot as a meta staple.
Another day, another ban post.
Although the suspect is discontinued, the council felt that a vote was appropriate for H-Qwilfish due to NDOTSL and previous sentiment from past surveys indicating that something should be done about Qwilfish.
Hisuian Qwilfish has been BANNED from National Dex NFE!
Bit funny that the DNB holdout is discussing this, but I'll try to be impartial here. Personally, this and Pikachu were sooo close to being balanced but had a few things that just pushed it over the edge.
I've spoken to a lot of people regarding Hisui Qwilfish. Old school vets, current gen players, newbies, fellow council members and NFE haters. One thing that they all agreed on is that Hisui Qwilfish is a bit too much for the tier and that removing it would make it a lot healthier - even if they didn't find it broken per se.
Hisui-Qwilfish has all the qualities that make it, if nothing else, irritating for the National Dex NFE. It is both a fantastic physical wallbreaker with Swords Dance and an unparalleled hazard setter with access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, and the odd Destiny Bond. National Dex NFE struggles with hazards since every remover hates either Stealth Rock (like Golbat or Vullaby), Spikes (like Wartortle or Servine) or both. Sets like SD + Spikes complicate matters by dealing significant damage to would-be hazard removal and positions H-Qwil to facilitate its own sweep. A purist Swords Dance H-Qwil set is the more problematic set by far as its high speed and solid defensive typing (resists grass and toxic) makes it fairly impervious to a lot of revenge-killing attempts, and this is not counting its resistance to Sucker Punch or Grassy Glide. All of this can be potentially forgiven if Hisui Qwilfish didn't have access to Z-moves. Waterium-Z nukes virtually all its answers like Piloswine, Gabit, Crocalor and Tinkatuff. Darkinium and Poisonium are rarer but nail team-specific targets like Dunsparce.
Hisui Qwilfish was not unstoppable by any means. If you carefully pivoted around the Z-move, Tinkatuff, Golbat and invested Crocalor can do a decent job at checking it in the long run as can other answers like Marshtomp and Gabite. Ironically Qwilfish itself is vulnerable to being worn down due constantly pivoting on bulky Grasses and Misdreavus - all of which can status it. Faster Pokemon like Electabuzz and Frogadier, as usual, can pick off the chipped pufferfish. Nevertheless, Hisui-Qwilfish is too strong and versatile of a Pokemon that unfairly forces the hand of the NFE builder and player alike. Qwilfish is thus banned from NFE.
Although the suspect is discontinued, the council felt that a vote was appropriate for H-Qwilfish due to NDOTSL and previous sentiment from past surveys indicating that something should be done about Qwilfish.
Hisuian Qwilfish has been BANNED from National Dex NFE!
Zastra | Velcroc | Sealoo | Cao Jie | FINAL VERDICT | |
| Vote | Ban | DNB | Ban | Ban | Ban |
Bit funny that the DNB holdout is discussing this, but I'll try to be impartial here. Personally, this and Pikachu were sooo close to being balanced but had a few things that just pushed it over the edge.
I've spoken to a lot of people regarding Hisui Qwilfish. Old school vets, current gen players, newbies, fellow council members and NFE haters. One thing that they all agreed on is that Hisui Qwilfish is a bit too much for the tier and that removing it would make it a lot healthier - even if they didn't find it broken per se.
Hisui-Qwilfish has all the qualities that make it, if nothing else, irritating for the National Dex NFE. It is both a fantastic physical wallbreaker with Swords Dance and an unparalleled hazard setter with access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, and the odd Destiny Bond. National Dex NFE struggles with hazards since every remover hates either Stealth Rock (like Golbat or Vullaby), Spikes (like Wartortle or Servine) or both. Sets like SD + Spikes complicate matters by dealing significant damage to would-be hazard removal and positions H-Qwil to facilitate its own sweep. A purist Swords Dance H-Qwil set is the more problematic set by far as its high speed and solid defensive typing (resists grass and toxic) makes it fairly impervious to a lot of revenge-killing attempts, and this is not counting its resistance to Sucker Punch or Grassy Glide. All of this can be potentially forgiven if Hisui Qwilfish didn't have access to Z-moves. Waterium-Z nukes virtually all its answers like Piloswine, Gabit, Crocalor and Tinkatuff. Darkinium and Poisonium are rarer but nail team-specific targets like Dunsparce.
Hisui Qwilfish was not unstoppable by any means. If you carefully pivoted around the Z-move, Tinkatuff, Golbat and invested Crocalor can do a decent job at checking it in the long run as can other answers like Marshtomp and Gabite. Ironically Qwilfish itself is vulnerable to being worn down due constantly pivoting on bulky Grasses and Misdreavus - all of which can status it. Faster Pokemon like Electabuzz and Frogadier, as usual, can pick off the chipped pufferfish. Nevertheless, Hisui-Qwilfish is too strong and versatile of a Pokemon that unfairly forces the hand of the NFE builder and player alike. Qwilfish is thus banned from NFE.
Zas, Sealoo, db, Cao Jie - Ban
Slowpoke Fan and Bella - DNB
Axzel and Velcroc - Yet to vote
Slowpoke Fan and Bella - DNB
Axzel and Velcroc - Yet to vote
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i come bearing ND NFE news... yet again.
secondly, i am stepping down from ND NFE TL and council. it has been an incredible experience, but i believe it's time for me to pass the torch as my motivation for this tier has been all time low lately.
Velcroc, a player you must all know by now, is your new TL! he's been involved in the tier for as long as i can remember, and i am confident he will lead the council with enthusiasm and expertise.
adios
ND NFE Survey II!
i was supposed to release this once some games have been done but literally everybody is johning; i don't have time to post this on weekends
ND NFE's second tiering survey is now live! PLEASE FILL IT IN, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE PLAYING / SUPPORTING THE ND NFE SLOT IN NDOTSL. Click below to access the form.
>> Click Me <<
survey results will be announced before week 5 of NDOTSL (in a little over 1 week)
i was supposed to release this once some games have been done but literally everybody is johning; i don't have time to post this on weekends
ND NFE's second tiering survey is now live! PLEASE FILL IT IN, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE PLAYING / SUPPORTING THE ND NFE SLOT IN NDOTSL. Click below to access the form.
>> Click Me <<
survey results will be announced before week 5 of NDOTSL (in a little over 1 week)
secondly, i am stepping down from ND NFE TL and council. it has been an incredible experience, but i believe it's time for me to pass the torch as my motivation for this tier has been all time low lately.
Velcroc, a player you must all know by now, is your new TL! he's been involved in the tier for as long as i can remember, and i am confident he will lead the council with enthusiasm and expertise.
adios
I going here to ask something.
Me and some friends were trying to play Nat Dex Convergence
But the Code somehow doesn't allow you to use some Pokemón that aren't banned.
For Example: Iron Moth and Ogerpon. When we try to use It, the Code say that they were using Gen 8 Event Pokemon and they were using Ilegal Gen 8 Event Moves and doesn't allow us to use them. Funny enough, the Iron Moth was using a completely basic Set with nothing from other Pokemon. So, I wonder what this might be
Me and some friends were trying to play Nat Dex Convergence
But the Code somehow doesn't allow you to use some Pokemón that aren't banned.
For Example: Iron Moth and Ogerpon. When we try to use It, the Code say that they were using Gen 8 Event Pokemon and they were using Ilegal Gen 8 Event Moves and doesn't allow us to use them. Funny enough, the Iron Moth was using a completely basic Set with nothing from other Pokemon. So, I wonder what this might be
I remember seeing an issue like this just recently in OM Mashups. Might be because they're gen 9 event pokemon so the code acts strange.
If you can, can you send the code you used and the sets for I-Moth and Ogerpon.
Here is the Code, is the same but without some Bans and some Pokemon Added (Ogerpon-Hearthflame doesn't work anyways)
/challenge gen9nationaldex @@@ Convergence Legality,!Obtainable Abilities,Sleep Moves Clause,-Cosmog,-Regigigas,-Slaking,-Smeargle,-Zamazenta,-Comatose,-Huge Power,-Imposter,-Pure Power,-Simple,-Belly Drum,-Electrify,-Extreme Speed,-Revival Blessing,-Shell Smash,-Shift Gear,-Stored Power,-Transform,-Medichamite,-Mawilite,+Espathra,+Ogerpon-Hearthflame,+Darkrai,+Genesect,+Walking Wake,+Roaring Moon,+Urshifu
The Sets:
Iron Moth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
- U-turn
Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Hammer Arm
- Knock Off
- Ivy Cudgel
The most interesting part is that you still CAN have the Movepool and Ability of this Mons in other ones, but you can't use the Mon itself. That's because my friend use the exact same set in a Serperior after the Code don't letting him use Ogerpon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1972811660-e1ej9kdmnw2m3yezp8yqsbmlzpi24ndpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1972812899-xflzksoa1wwbnww6faau3cwj6kkf30fpw
Problem seems to be Knock Off on Ogerpon and Sludge Wave on Iron Moth for whatever reason. My guess is that it's a coding issue that involves limited distribution mons like Walking Wake, other paradoxes and the Ogerpons.
While that gets sorted out, I think you'll have to gentleman with
!obtainable moves despite the sets being legal in standard formats.For real, Thanks man. I'm gonna test it
Big ND Godly Gift tiering changes.
With the announcement yesterday of the new definition of Godly Gift, the ND Godly Gift council thought it would be a good time to look at the whole metagame and see what is worth introducing as gods, receivers, and leaving on the accursed banlist. In summary, this means that the tier will now be relying on a restricted list, where any Pokemon in said restricted list can only be used as a god. This also gives us a good opportunity to evaluate if previously broken Gods are viewable as more balanced now.
You can view the full voting list in the spoiler below, but as a TL;DR of what has changed:
*
Mega Alakazam, Annihilape, Chien-Pao, Darkrai, Dragapult, Great Tusk* Hawlucha, Iron Hands, Landorus, Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon, Palafin, Regieleki, Shedinja, Rapid Strike Urshifu, Single Strike Urshifu, Walking Wake, and 50% Zygarde are now legal as receivers!
*Great Tusk was meant to be freed before the start of NDOTSL Week 3, but I forgot to post it. Oops.
Deoxys-Defense, Kingambit, Alolan Marowak, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Pikachu, Mega Sableye, Smeargle, Hisuian Ursaluna, and Blood Moon Ursaluna are now gods!
Primal Groudon, Koraidon, Primal Kyogre, Miraidon, and Xerneas are now unbanned and legal once again as gods!
Blissey, Calyrex-Shadow, Chansey, and Deoxys-Attack remain banned!
Finally, we did a vote on Terastallization to see if it should remain banned or have one more chance in the tier, where it remains banned after a 3-2 council vote!
Will this shake up the entire NDGG meta? Yes. Does it make it much more volatile? Also yes. But this also gives us a perfect opportunity to see what is truly broken in the metagame and fix it while letting "OUBL" Pokemon potentially shine without being incredibly random. We hope that this shakeup improves the state of the tier within the coming weeks, and we'll be closely watching the tier as to prevent elongated issues.
Koraidon and Miraidon are now banned!| Clas | Kris | NeonJolteonWasUsed | Runo | The Dragon Master | Total | |
| Koraidon | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | 5-0 BAN |
| Miraidon | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | 5-0 BAN |
I don't have time to write detailed reasonings but basically it's an ND Ubers repeat with some of the best donor stats and abilities to boot.
We also re-restricted some accidentally unrestricted Pokemon, but also voted on an extra Pokemon that was never explicitly banned in Magearna, and will revisit it after the conclusion of NDOTSL. You can view the list here, and yes Magearna was also restricted with a 3-1-1 vote.
Finally, woo decided to step down a couple months back. While it's my bad for not mentioning it earlier, they have been missing from 3 ban slates now. Nonetheless, we thank them for the time they spent working on the tier with us and wish them good luck with their future endeavours.
Idk if this is the right thread but I figured to pass all of the ndlc teams I’ve built in ndotpl:
https://pokepast.es/224c677056fde640
I built this balance around wishpass + sheildon, sheildons typing has a cool niche in walling certain mons like no fight move abra, tailow and even htorb. Licki is also cool in walling most of all spatkers in this tier, I later rounded it off with some fat ass mons + np vull as my wincon, protect foo is a nice tech in the foo vs foo mirror
https://pokepast.es/b54f5626078957d6
Almost the same 3 fat core but w 3a vull and htorb for more offensive pressure, shinotic is cool cuz it’s like foongus and larv combined as it punishes foo for clicking uturn n it can spore stuff too
https://pokepast.es/4cc6f64c8a550a75
I originally wanted to load this vs roldski but I never got to cuz I didn’t have time to test, standard carv vull darkspam with wishpass and varoom, varoom is nice cuz it checks a lot of stuff n it can block foongus with overcoat.
https://pokepast.es/a95479e39679c643
I built this team around supporting resttalk tailow toeds cruel for removal and chinchou for bringing tailow in, scarf sd foo is nice to surprise ppl when u get knocked.
full team dump: https://pokepast.es/300f52768de18d32
I’d love to give a explanation for all of these teams but I don’t have the time to.
https://pokepast.es/224c677056fde640
I built this balance around wishpass + sheildon, sheildons typing has a cool niche in walling certain mons like no fight move abra, tailow and even htorb. Licki is also cool in walling most of all spatkers in this tier, I later rounded it off with some fat ass mons + np vull as my wincon, protect foo is a nice tech in the foo vs foo mirror
https://pokepast.es/b54f5626078957d6
Almost the same 3 fat core but w 3a vull and htorb for more offensive pressure, shinotic is cool cuz it’s like foongus and larv combined as it punishes foo for clicking uturn n it can spore stuff too
https://pokepast.es/4cc6f64c8a550a75
I originally wanted to load this vs roldski but I never got to cuz I didn’t have time to test, standard carv vull darkspam with wishpass and varoom, varoom is nice cuz it checks a lot of stuff n it can block foongus with overcoat.
https://pokepast.es/a95479e39679c643
I built this team around supporting resttalk tailow toeds cruel for removal and chinchou for bringing tailow in, scarf sd foo is nice to surprise ppl when u get knocked.
full team dump: https://pokepast.es/300f52768de18d32
I’d love to give a explanation for all of these teams but I don’t have the time to.
ok so now that the slakings are out of ndotpl its post time.
NOTE: If you are interested in ND NFE by any chance (i am not), this post will help you a lot, trust me.
CONTENTS
1.1 Teamdump
1.2 VR Noms
1.3 Trends, building guide
1.4 State of the metagame, the future
1.1 NDOTPL Teamdump
Week 1 vs db: Z-Hqwil Classic (W)
waterium hqwil was borked at that time so i wanted to build with it. oh and shell smash wartortle cuz that thing goes hard. so i put tort+hqwil as my initial offensive core. servine next cuz its borked as well and beats 5 million threats of the tier and provides fog glare etc. i realised i was a bit slow, and chose lampent as my scarfer cuz trick is amazing (saved me). golbat checks stuff servine(+tort) have difficulty againt (like acro thwackey) and provides momentum, with super fang helping against mons like clef / rhydon. lastly, my rocker, my beloved dunsparce. now u could ask why i put dun. answer is i wanted a bulky rocker that could reliably deal with pawniard and is bulky enough to take volt switches (cuz i skipped ground type). dun also does funny stuff like freeze ur opp sometimes so its good.
Week 2 vs Hiusi guy: ThwackLix (L)
i was supposed to play axzel but he dodged me, unfort. i knew axzel leaned towards offensive builds a bit, mostly sun / hazard stack (if memory serves right) / 6 broken. i thought itd be funny to cheese him with thwackey+swirlix cuz in theory it was good against his builds, and i also put a gabite on there just in case he decides to run sun / hqwil. i didn't really put much thought on the team, tort+rose+gabite form the primary defensive core and vigo acts as speed control+secondary wincon, while also dealing with stuff like misdreavus ig.
unfortunately i ran into a CM+flamethrower clefairy which caused my doom :sob:
Week 3 vs Bella: Duosion Standard (W)
hqwil was banned so i figured duosion would be loads better now. bu gurdurr+duosion sounded like a nice duo cuz fsight punishes golbat roselia etc. i also figured servine and misdreavus will be loads better with hqwil gone so i put them too. golbat for fog and checking friends (kept servine defensive just in case) (im paranoid of smash tort). finally, my own rocker, and speed control (lol) (sucker :sob:), pawniard. servine 6-0d instantly.
Week 4 vs Sealoo: CM Hattrem Cheese (L)
wanted to load extra cheese this week. built this team keeping sealoo in mind. i knew he leant towards offensive builds with like frogadier etc., so i figured running cm hatt. monferno for rocks+pawn, tang for rhydon etc. bat cuz i find it difficult to build w/o it (checks grasses etc+fog). and then, the real stuff. TOXIC ORB LINOONE+DRAGON DANCE FRAXURE. linoone is slept on, its fast af, has knock, facade, and pshot. no 1 has the balls to run frax on non screens teams but i... i am built different (shouldve run hakammo-o but w/e)
this team is simply quite flawed and im not rly surprised i lost (owned by magmar). it has issues with stuff like ebuzz fires etc so i dont recommend it.
Week 5 vs CaoJie: Toxic Spikes Roselia+Z-Pawniard (W)
after the L w4 i knew i had to be serious (the slakings were in a tight spot lol), so i wanted to load a team as consistent and effective as possible. i scouted a bit and came to a conclusion: toxic spikes are great cuz everyone was running teams weak to them. but that was not enough, i needed a mon that could punish defog golbat / servine. pawniard was the perfect pick. fog? switch in and get the +2. gurdurr? knock it or use corkscrew crash. go rose, tspike again. gg. ngas koff wouldve been a pain ig but only 1 player was running it. then came PiloGurd, the NFE classic. SpinSmash tort is a nice wincon and fast bat (self-explanatory). thanks SBPC for building with me.
1.2 VR Nominations
Piloswine S --> A+
Piloswine is an amazing mon, but i don't think it deserves S anymore. i believe it should be ranked with gurdurr. brilliant progressmaker, but i think it kinda struggles in the current metagame, being prone to getting out-offensed by pummeling ebuzz / servine / tort / gurd / hjk rab / frog etc.
Golbat A+ --> S
golbat is a brilliant defensive pick and u probably always need one on ur team to not fold to servine gurdurr and friends. also has a LOT of utility with u-turn / taunt / toxic / super fang whatever. base 90 speed is amazing.
Misdreavus A+ --> A / A- (Add Choice Scarf)
missy kinda struggles in the current meta, even after hqwil ban. it seems to have a lot of potential on paper but.. it fails in game? servine, golbat, ebuzz, pawn etc havent been friendly to it. scarf missy has a niche of being able to force (trick) scarf into common answers like golbat crocalor etc. while also acting as a speed control option.
Servine A- --> S (Add Normalium Z)
servine is probably the best mon in the metagame rn. having an amazing defensive profile thanks to its grass typing and good bulk, it already is an amazing defensive staple. but that doesn't end here, its an amazing bulky setup sweeper thanks to contrary leaf storm, and access to a variety of (util) moves like glare, knock off, etc., and recovery in synthesis. it'll snowball past unprepared teams v easily.
Rhydon A --> A- / B+ (Add Buginium Z)
it has high stats and all and very threatening on paper, but it's just underwhelming in game and honestly piloswine is just better as an offensive ground
Sliggoo-Hisui A- --> B
it's slow and doesn't do anything
Magmar A- --> A / A+
very fast mon and punishes ServGolbat / PiloGurd structures well. belly drum magmar is an insane pick on screens.
Vigoroth A- --> B+
doesn't really do anything and matches up bad against common defensive options.
Clefairy B+ --> A-
clefairy does stuff with cm+moonlight+2a / provides good util with WishPort / TrickBarb etc. loads of potential as a glue mon and magic guard is cool.
Crocalor B+ --> A-
croc deals with a variety of stuff ranging from S tier servine to cm clef to magmar to misdreavus to pawn etc. brilliant defensive pick and the thing that is keeping me from nomming croc higher is cuz i find it awkward to fit it on teams.
Dunsparce B+ --> A-
insane mon, can roll teams with cm+2a+roost. its better than vigo tbh cuz ibeam / ep helps it deal with servine / croc etc.
Fraxure B+ --> A- ; Hakamo-o B --> A-
both have loads of potential as offensive dragons. dd / sd steelium frax / SubSDSShot hakamo can roll teams.
Mareanie A- --> B
doesn't do anything
Naclstack B+ --> UR
doesn't do anything
Pawniard B+ --> A- / A
punishes defog, good into future sight, sd steelium z rolls.
Gabite B+ --> A-
good ground type that can deal with pawniard, block ebuzz volts, beat magmar, etc.
Linoone-Galar UR --> B+ / A-
ok, so fsr, linoone-g is UR lol. its a brilliant offensive pick having access to all sorts of good moves, knock+dedge+pshot for evio sets or knock+facade for toxic orb. oh and switcheroo too. torb is an amazing speed control option and pressures common defensive cores very well, tho u need to pair it with smth like gurd for full potential or pawn gets free clicks.
Lairon C --> B
nice typing and good offensive potential with rocks+head smash+hslam. can punish BatServ well. overall a decent pick if ur looking for a breaker that also rocks.
1.3 The Trends: What's good?
I figured I would discuss the trends / archetypes a bit, while also posting a handy checklist so that new players (if there are any lol) have an easy time picking up the tier. first lets discuss the basics a bit.
1.3.1 The Golden Item: Eviolite
When in doubt, use eviolite. offensive or defensive. do not use asssault vest or heavy duty boots.
1.3.2 Sleep (Powder)
nfe doesnt have sleep moves clause so force 5v6 on ur opp!
1.3.3 Knock Off
knock the eviolite and cut the bulk
1.3.4 Trick / Switcheroo / Covet / Thief
trick the eviolite
1.3.5 Z Moves
change from sv. z moves make offensive mons stronger
1.3.6 Hidden Power
another change. use for coverage
Archetypes
, etc- these Pokemon form brilliant defensive backbones. Offensive Pokemon like 
etc. take full advantage of that. Balance and BO are great archetypes.
R8 don't open the spoiler
Trends
1.3.7
servine+golbat+gurdurr (alternatively: servine+golbat+tort) is in my eyes the most consistent defensive core right now. this core isn't easy to exploit and isn't passive at all, with servine being able to snowball and cripple stuff with knock / glare anytime, bat being fast and havin pivoting and gurd having bulk up / mach punch. serv deals with a variety of mons like smash wartortle, misdreavus, grounds etc, and golbat helps vs opposing roselias / servines / fightings. gurdurr sums up the core as the primary switch-in to pawniard and piloswine.
1.3.8
these two form a great balanced core and have been scaring tf out of players since old gens. these two help each other out by dealing with things the other hates (like pilo deals with bat for gurd, and gurd does knocking and dealing with will-o-wisps)
1.3.9
rose sets (toxic) spikes, and pawn punishes golbat / servine defogs. gurd is a problematic mu, but rose can deal with it.
1.3.10
classic voltturn core, ebuzz volts, thwack n rab uturns. thwackey deals with grounds, ebuzz with bats, rab with fires. all pressure defensive cores well.
I will not discuss all good cores cuz there's a thread for that (those will be updated in due time).
A handy checklist for ND NFE Building
1.4 The State of the metagame and the future
in my eyes, the metagame is fine as-is. pretty much every archetype (outside of stall) works fine which is a good sign. servine, rhydon, piloswine are potentially problematic elements but i am of the opinion Servine, piloswine and Rhydon are balanced, especially the latter (rhydon).
regarding unbans, i think sneasel (base), mr. mime-g and gligar should absolutely stay banned. sneasel-h can be tested cuz golbat / croc are on p much every team now anyway and its frail, but it may not stay for too long even after being freed. electabuzz is fine. alternatively, servine can be suspect tested but it's probably best to not do anything for a while. the meta's stabilizing with some (hazard stack / voltturn, mostly) cores standing out.
so that's it. it'll probably be my last nfe post for a while cuz im washed now. cheers.
NOTE: If you are interested in ND NFE by any chance (i am not), this post will help you a lot, trust me.
CONTENTS
1.1 Teamdump
1.2 VR Noms
1.3 Trends, building guide
1.4 State of the metagame, the future
1.1 NDOTPL Teamdump
Week 1 vs db: Z-Hqwil Classic (W)
waterium hqwil was borked at that time so i wanted to build with it. oh and shell smash wartortle cuz that thing goes hard. so i put tort+hqwil as my initial offensive core. servine next cuz its borked as well and beats 5 million threats of the tier and provides fog glare etc. i realised i was a bit slow, and chose lampent as my scarfer cuz trick is amazing (saved me). golbat checks stuff servine(+tort) have difficulty againt (like acro thwackey) and provides momentum, with super fang helping against mons like clef / rhydon. lastly, my rocker, my beloved dunsparce. now u could ask why i put dun. answer is i wanted a bulky rocker that could reliably deal with pawniard and is bulky enough to take volt switches (cuz i skipped ground type). dun also does funny stuff like freeze ur opp sometimes so its good.
Week 2 vs Hiusi guy: ThwackLix (L)
i was supposed to play axzel but he dodged me, unfort. i knew axzel leaned towards offensive builds a bit, mostly sun / hazard stack (if memory serves right) / 6 broken. i thought itd be funny to cheese him with thwackey+swirlix cuz in theory it was good against his builds, and i also put a gabite on there just in case he decides to run sun / hqwil. i didn't really put much thought on the team, tort+rose+gabite form the primary defensive core and vigo acts as speed control+secondary wincon, while also dealing with stuff like misdreavus ig.
unfortunately i ran into a CM+flamethrower clefairy which caused my doom :sob:
Week 3 vs Bella: Duosion Standard (W)
hqwil was banned so i figured duosion would be loads better now. bu gurdurr+duosion sounded like a nice duo cuz fsight punishes golbat roselia etc. i also figured servine and misdreavus will be loads better with hqwil gone so i put them too. golbat for fog and checking friends (kept servine defensive just in case) (im paranoid of smash tort). finally, my own rocker, and speed control (lol) (sucker :sob:), pawniard. servine 6-0d instantly.
Week 4 vs Sealoo: CM Hattrem Cheese (L)
wanted to load extra cheese this week. built this team keeping sealoo in mind. i knew he leant towards offensive builds with like frogadier etc., so i figured running cm hatt. monferno for rocks+pawn, tang for rhydon etc. bat cuz i find it difficult to build w/o it (checks grasses etc+fog). and then, the real stuff. TOXIC ORB LINOONE+DRAGON DANCE FRAXURE. linoone is slept on, its fast af, has knock, facade, and pshot. no 1 has the balls to run frax on non screens teams but i... i am built different (shouldve run hakammo-o but w/e)
this team is simply quite flawed and im not rly surprised i lost (owned by magmar). it has issues with stuff like ebuzz fires etc so i dont recommend it.
Week 5 vs CaoJie: Toxic Spikes Roselia+Z-Pawniard (W)
after the L w4 i knew i had to be serious (the slakings were in a tight spot lol), so i wanted to load a team as consistent and effective as possible. i scouted a bit and came to a conclusion: toxic spikes are great cuz everyone was running teams weak to them. but that was not enough, i needed a mon that could punish defog golbat / servine. pawniard was the perfect pick. fog? switch in and get the +2. gurdurr? knock it or use corkscrew crash. go rose, tspike again. gg. ngas koff wouldve been a pain ig but only 1 player was running it. then came PiloGurd, the NFE classic. SpinSmash tort is a nice wincon and fast bat (self-explanatory). thanks SBPC for building with me.
1.2 VR Nominations
Piloswine S --> A+
Piloswine is an amazing mon, but i don't think it deserves S anymore. i believe it should be ranked with gurdurr. brilliant progressmaker, but i think it kinda struggles in the current metagame, being prone to getting out-offensed by pummeling ebuzz / servine / tort / gurd / hjk rab / frog etc.
Golbat A+ --> S
golbat is a brilliant defensive pick and u probably always need one on ur team to not fold to servine gurdurr and friends. also has a LOT of utility with u-turn / taunt / toxic / super fang whatever. base 90 speed is amazing.
Misdreavus A+ --> A / A- (Add Choice Scarf)
missy kinda struggles in the current meta, even after hqwil ban. it seems to have a lot of potential on paper but.. it fails in game? servine, golbat, ebuzz, pawn etc havent been friendly to it. scarf missy has a niche of being able to force (trick) scarf into common answers like golbat crocalor etc. while also acting as a speed control option.
Servine A- --> S (Add Normalium Z)
servine is probably the best mon in the metagame rn. having an amazing defensive profile thanks to its grass typing and good bulk, it already is an amazing defensive staple. but that doesn't end here, its an amazing bulky setup sweeper thanks to contrary leaf storm, and access to a variety of (util) moves like glare, knock off, etc., and recovery in synthesis. it'll snowball past unprepared teams v easily.
Rhydon A --> A- / B+ (Add Buginium Z)
it has high stats and all and very threatening on paper, but it's just underwhelming in game and honestly piloswine is just better as an offensive ground
Sliggoo-Hisui A- --> B
it's slow and doesn't do anything
Magmar A- --> A / A+
very fast mon and punishes ServGolbat / PiloGurd structures well. belly drum magmar is an insane pick on screens.
Vigoroth A- --> B+
doesn't really do anything and matches up bad against common defensive options.
Clefairy B+ --> A-
clefairy does stuff with cm+moonlight+2a / provides good util with WishPort / TrickBarb etc. loads of potential as a glue mon and magic guard is cool.
Crocalor B+ --> A-
croc deals with a variety of stuff ranging from S tier servine to cm clef to magmar to misdreavus to pawn etc. brilliant defensive pick and the thing that is keeping me from nomming croc higher is cuz i find it awkward to fit it on teams.
Dunsparce B+ --> A-
insane mon, can roll teams with cm+2a+roost. its better than vigo tbh cuz ibeam / ep helps it deal with servine / croc etc.
Fraxure B+ --> A- ; Hakamo-o B --> A-
both have loads of potential as offensive dragons. dd / sd steelium frax / SubSDSShot hakamo can roll teams.
Mareanie A- --> B
doesn't do anything
Naclstack B+ --> UR
doesn't do anything
Pawniard B+ --> A- / A
punishes defog, good into future sight, sd steelium z rolls.
Gabite B+ --> A-
good ground type that can deal with pawniard, block ebuzz volts, beat magmar, etc.
Linoone-Galar UR --> B+ / A-
ok, so fsr, linoone-g is UR lol. its a brilliant offensive pick having access to all sorts of good moves, knock+dedge+pshot for evio sets or knock+facade for toxic orb. oh and switcheroo too. torb is an amazing speed control option and pressures common defensive cores very well, tho u need to pair it with smth like gurd for full potential or pawn gets free clicks.
Lairon C --> B
nice typing and good offensive potential with rocks+head smash+hslam. can punish BatServ well. overall a decent pick if ur looking for a breaker that also rocks.
I figured I would discuss the trends / archetypes a bit, while also posting a handy checklist so that new players (if there are any lol) have an easy time picking up the tier. first lets discuss the basics a bit.
1.3.1 The Golden Item: Eviolite
When in doubt, use eviolite. offensive or defensive. do not use asssault vest or heavy duty boots.
1.3.2 Sleep (Powder)
nfe doesnt have sleep moves clause so force 5v6 on ur opp!1.3.3 Knock Off
knock the eviolite and cut the bulk
1.3.4 Trick / Switcheroo / Covet / Thief
trick the eviolite
1.3.5 Z Moves
change from sv. z moves make offensive mons stronger
1.3.6 Hidden Power
another change. use for coverage
Archetypes
, etc- these Pokemon form brilliant defensive backbones. Offensive Pokemon like etc. take full advantage of that. Balance and BO are great archetypes.hazard stack is amazing thanks to HDB not being used.
Spikes
(
)
Toxic Spikes
( )
mons like (thanks to them receiving a boost to defog) (appreciates chip on servine / rose) etc. benefit from hazards
Spikes
( )Toxic Spikes
( )mons like
(thanks to them receiving a boost to defog) (appreciates chip on servine / rose) etc. benefit from hazardsIt's good
is the best dual screens mon. popular picks on HO include 
etc.
is the best dual screens mon. popular picks on HO include etc.It's good.
Setter:
Abusers:
Setter:
Abusers:
setter: 
it's decent but mons like servine and pawn and good hazard removal makes it increasingly difficult to abuse.
it's decent but mons like servine and pawn and good hazard removal makes it increasingly difficult to abuse.
It... kinda sucks
Trends
1.3.7
servine+golbat+gurdurr (alternatively: servine+golbat+tort) is in my eyes the most consistent defensive core right now. this core isn't easy to exploit and isn't passive at all, with servine being able to snowball and cripple stuff with knock / glare anytime, bat being fast and havin pivoting and gurd having bulk up / mach punch. serv deals with a variety of mons like smash wartortle, misdreavus, grounds etc, and golbat helps vs opposing roselias / servines / fightings. gurdurr sums up the core as the primary switch-in to pawniard and piloswine.
1.3.8
these two form a great balanced core and have been scaring tf out of players since old gens. these two help each other out by dealing with things the other hates (like pilo deals with bat for gurd, and gurd does knocking and dealing with will-o-wisps)
1.3.9
rose sets (toxic) spikes, and pawn punishes golbat / servine defogs. gurd is a problematic mu, but rose can deal with it.
1.3.10
classic voltturn core, ebuzz volts, thwack n rab uturns. thwackey deals with grounds, ebuzz with bats, rab with fires. all pressure defensive cores well.
I will not discuss all good cores cuz there's a thread for that (those will be updated in due time).
A handy checklist for ND NFE Building
- Right defensive core (Hazard removal included): The S Class-> (grass) (crocalor) (wartortle)
- Ground / Volt Switch switch-in:
() - Hazards: (
) etc. - Future Sight ():
- Offense (check VR)
- Piloswine / Rhydon
- Servine
- Fightium Z Electabuzz
- CM / NP Misdreavus
- Bulk Up Gurdurr / Machoke
- Shell Smash Wartortle
- Magmar / Raboot
- CM Shenanigans (Dunsparce, Clefairy, etc.)
1.4 The State of the metagame and the future
in my eyes, the metagame is fine as-is. pretty much every archetype (outside of stall) works fine which is a good sign. servine, rhydon, piloswine are potentially problematic elements but i am of the opinion Servine, piloswine and Rhydon are balanced, especially the latter (rhydon).
regarding unbans, i think sneasel (base), mr. mime-g and gligar should absolutely stay banned. sneasel-h can be tested cuz golbat / croc are on p much every team now anyway and its frail, but it may not stay for too long even after being freed. electabuzz is fine. alternatively, servine can be suspect tested but it's probably best to not do anything for a while. the meta's stabilizing with some (hazard stack / voltturn, mostly) cores standing out.
so that's it. it'll probably be my last nfe post for a while cuz im washed now. cheers.
Last edited:
NFE Tiering Survey Results
Greetings folks, the NFE Council put out a survey...in the past (I cannot say recently here) and here were the conclusions the community came to.
There were 13 total responses, a welcomed spike from the previous 10 responses in the prior survey. A lot of these results were affected by some outliers so keep in mind when analyzing the results.
Now, without further ado, here are the responses!
We asked you, on a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy playing the current metagame?
7.5/10
This shows that the metagame is perceived well by most players, although there may be some desire for action to be taken on some Pokemon. Sometimes building can feel restrictive with the concrete threats that must be covered such as Rhydon, Servine, Electabuzz, and Frogadier. We will keep an eye on these threats but are overall happy with how the community feels about the metagame.
We asked you, on a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
6.3/10
These results indicate that in contrast to the enjoyability of the tier, it may have some elements that are inherently unbalanced. The same threats above still apply here, but there are also more offensive threats who can feel impossible to reliably cover on a team as well as in practice like Shell Smash Wartortle, Belly Drum/AoA Magmar, and certain Roselia variants with Sleep Powder or Spikes. We will keep an eye on the factors that may be inhibiting the balance of the metagame and work to improve this, but the median being an 8 is a good sign seeing who one of the 1 voters are...
We asked you, on a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Rhydon in the current tier?
3.15/5
Rhydon scored a 3.15, which is much higher than we'd like to see out of a Pokemon in the current metagame. With a whopping 135 Attack stat, barely anything can stand in its way defensively, while it serves as a very potent Stealth Rock user threatening the ubiquitous Golbat. Not only does Rhydon boast an incredible Attack, but also a ludicrous HP and Defense allowing to shrug off almost any physical attack in the metagame without a second thought, like Gurdurr's Drain Punch and Magmar's +6 Mach Punch. However, Rhydon is a slow wallbreaker with very exploitable weaknesses to Grass and Water most notably. This allows the omnipresent Grass-types like Servine, Roselia, and Tangela to shut down Rhydon in one hit, although none of them want to switch-in besides the latter due to Megahorn and and Roselia's poor physical bulk respectively. Water-types like Frogadier and Shell Smash Wartortle are staples of offensive teams capable of OHKOing Rhydon.
We asked you, on a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Electabuzz in the current tier?
3/5
Electabuzz has been a tier staple since the beginning, boasting an incredible 105 Speed stat as what is easily the fastest unboosted Speed tier in the meta accompanied by a solid Special Attack. However, common Grass-type Pokemon like Servine, Roselia, Ferroseed, and Tangela can check it throughout the course of a game with ease. Other walls like Regenerator Duosion, Tinkatuff, Corsola-G are also more than capable of preventing Electabuzz from claiming kills at will. But all these answer share one key flaw, their inability to block Volt Switch. Electabuzz can freely pivot to teammates capable of dispatching these walls like Pawniard, Magmar, and Crocalor while its checks often find themselves in a vortex of pivoting + hazard support from Electabuzz's teammates allowing it to position endgames very quickly once the aforementioned checks are chipped. Ground-type Pokemon like Piloswine, Rhydon, Gabite, and Marshtomp can block Volt Switch while OHKOing Electabuzz with Earthquake, however, Electabuzz has easy avenues around the first two with Z-Focus Blast then HP Ice or HP Grass for the latter two. Overall, Electabuzz is the premier offensive threat in the tier, however, it's not unbearable to deal with in-game. We will keep a close eye on both Electabuzz and Rhydon for the near future.
Retests
We asked you all about retesting 3 previously banned Pokemon, and it seems the player base was receptive to most of them in some way. Sneasel-H saw support to stay banned for the most part, boasting a potent STAB combination capable of dusting through the tier with a stellar 115 Speed stat, outpacing staples like Raboot, Frogadier, and Electabuzz. On the contrary, its cousin Sneasel shares identical stats and abilities, but with a Dark/Ice STAB combination. Notably, this grants it a STAB Knock Off and powerful Triple Axel capable of chewing through common Grass-types. However, it seems the player base believes it is manageable and deserves a chance, with common metagame Pokemon like Wartortle, Piloswine, Ferroseed, and Gurdurr effectively checking it. Lastly, Mr. Mime-Galar saw the most support to stay banned out of the 3, boasting Nasty Plot + STAB Freeze-Dry which is capable of utterly ripping the tier apart. If that wasn't enough, Rapid Spin can grant it a Speed boost capable of cutting through weakened offensive teams. This comes off a solid 90 Special Attack and stellar 100 Speed as well, so it is likely Mr. Mime-Galar stays banned.
Closing Thoughts
Gligar received a LOT of support to be unbanned in the extra thoughts section, providing a much needed Defog option and Ground-type for the tier. Piloswine's omnipresence could help limit it, and a potential Sneasel retest would support help keep it in check. The council will keep this in mind for the future and take what we believe is the best course of action on Gligar.
Overall, we thank you all for continued support of the metagame and hope you continue to enjoy it. Remember to call "LeonGod" aka zastra WASHED today.
Greetings folks, the NFE Council put out a survey...in the past (I cannot say recently here) and here were the conclusions the community came to.
There were 13 total responses, a welcomed spike from the previous 10 responses in the prior survey. A lot of these results were affected by some outliers so keep in mind when analyzing the results.
Now, without further ado, here are the responses!
We asked you, on a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy playing the current metagame?
7.5/10
This shows that the metagame is perceived well by most players, although there may be some desire for action to be taken on some Pokemon. Sometimes building can feel restrictive with the concrete threats that must be covered such as Rhydon, Servine, Electabuzz, and Frogadier. We will keep an eye on these threats but are overall happy with how the community feels about the metagame.
We asked you, on a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
6.3/10
These results indicate that in contrast to the enjoyability of the tier, it may have some elements that are inherently unbalanced. The same threats above still apply here, but there are also more offensive threats who can feel impossible to reliably cover on a team as well as in practice like Shell Smash Wartortle, Belly Drum/AoA Magmar, and certain Roselia variants with Sleep Powder or Spikes. We will keep an eye on the factors that may be inhibiting the balance of the metagame and work to improve this, but the median being an 8 is a good sign seeing who one of the 1 voters are...
We asked you, on a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Rhydon in the current tier?
3.15/5
Rhydon scored a 3.15, which is much higher than we'd like to see out of a Pokemon in the current metagame. With a whopping 135 Attack stat, barely anything can stand in its way defensively, while it serves as a very potent Stealth Rock user threatening the ubiquitous Golbat. Not only does Rhydon boast an incredible Attack, but also a ludicrous HP and Defense allowing to shrug off almost any physical attack in the metagame without a second thought, like Gurdurr's Drain Punch and Magmar's +6 Mach Punch. However, Rhydon is a slow wallbreaker with very exploitable weaknesses to Grass and Water most notably. This allows the omnipresent Grass-types like Servine, Roselia, and Tangela to shut down Rhydon in one hit, although none of them want to switch-in besides the latter due to Megahorn and and Roselia's poor physical bulk respectively. Water-types like Frogadier and Shell Smash Wartortle are staples of offensive teams capable of OHKOing Rhydon.
We asked you, on a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Electabuzz in the current tier?
3/5
Electabuzz has been a tier staple since the beginning, boasting an incredible 105 Speed stat as what is easily the fastest unboosted Speed tier in the meta accompanied by a solid Special Attack. However, common Grass-type Pokemon like Servine, Roselia, Ferroseed, and Tangela can check it throughout the course of a game with ease. Other walls like Regenerator Duosion, Tinkatuff, Corsola-G are also more than capable of preventing Electabuzz from claiming kills at will. But all these answer share one key flaw, their inability to block Volt Switch. Electabuzz can freely pivot to teammates capable of dispatching these walls like Pawniard, Magmar, and Crocalor while its checks often find themselves in a vortex of pivoting + hazard support from Electabuzz's teammates allowing it to position endgames very quickly once the aforementioned checks are chipped. Ground-type Pokemon like Piloswine, Rhydon, Gabite, and Marshtomp can block Volt Switch while OHKOing Electabuzz with Earthquake, however, Electabuzz has easy avenues around the first two with Z-Focus Blast then HP Ice or HP Grass for the latter two. Overall, Electabuzz is the premier offensive threat in the tier, however, it's not unbearable to deal with in-game. We will keep a close eye on both Electabuzz and Rhydon for the near future.
Retests
We asked you all about retesting 3 previously banned Pokemon, and it seems the player base was receptive to most of them in some way. Sneasel-H saw support to stay banned for the most part, boasting a potent STAB combination capable of dusting through the tier with a stellar 115 Speed stat, outpacing staples like Raboot, Frogadier, and Electabuzz. On the contrary, its cousin Sneasel shares identical stats and abilities, but with a Dark/Ice STAB combination. Notably, this grants it a STAB Knock Off and powerful Triple Axel capable of chewing through common Grass-types. However, it seems the player base believes it is manageable and deserves a chance, with common metagame Pokemon like Wartortle, Piloswine, Ferroseed, and Gurdurr effectively checking it. Lastly, Mr. Mime-Galar saw the most support to stay banned out of the 3, boasting Nasty Plot + STAB Freeze-Dry which is capable of utterly ripping the tier apart. If that wasn't enough, Rapid Spin can grant it a Speed boost capable of cutting through weakened offensive teams. This comes off a solid 90 Special Attack and stellar 100 Speed as well, so it is likely Mr. Mime-Galar stays banned.
Closing Thoughts
Gligar received a LOT of support to be unbanned in the extra thoughts section, providing a much needed Defog option and Ground-type for the tier. Piloswine's omnipresence could help limit it, and a potential Sneasel retest would support help keep it in check. The council will keep this in mind for the future and take what we believe is the best course of action on Gligar.
Overall, we thank you all for continued support of the metagame and hope you continue to enjoy it. Remember to call "LeonGod" aka zastra WASHED today.
Attachments
Kartana, Mega Gardevoir, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, and Enamorus are banned from Natdex Convergence 
| hidin | Runo | TheShowdownHoedown | Velcroc | Orangex | RESULT | |
| Gardevoir-Mega | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | 5-0 BAN |
| Ogerpon-Hearthflame | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | 5-0 BAN |
| Enamorus | BAN | BAN | BAN | DNB | BAN | 4-1 BAN |
| Fishious Rend | BAN | DNB | DNB | DNB | DNB | 1-4 DNB |
| Kartana | BAN | BAN | Abstain | BAN | BAN | 4-0 BAN |
| Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | BAN | Abstain | BAN | DNB | DNB | 2-2 DNB |
Kartana was an extremely centralizing threat with multiple good sets such as Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Swords Dance Life Orb. It could abuse the higher BP of STAB moves Power Whip and Iron Head. It had very few good checks, the best of which being Tera Poison Dondozo which could ignore any boosts it had from Beast Boost or Swords Dance. Celesteela was often used to 'check' it but it loses to Swords Dance sets and can be easily worn down by common partners such as Tapu Bulu, which could both boost Kartana's power, and put checks in range of Kartana. The sheer power and versatility, combined with the snowball potential of Beast Boost made it too much for the tier to handle
While it was originally unbanned alongside the banning of Boomburst, Nasty Plot sets proved to be too much when used in conjuction with strong coverage with Fire Blast to hit Steel-types like Celesteela. The most reliable forms of counterplay was RegenVest Cresselia and putting pressure on it offensively. It beat the very common core of LandoPexSteela and was incredibly hard to check defensively.
Ogerpon was mainly broken here for the same reasons it was broken in NDOU. However, in Natdex Convergence it can use Chlorophyll alongside strong Drought users such as Entei or Arcanine. With Tera Fire giving it an Attack boost, it could break through teams easily.
Togekiss with good stats. It could use Nasty Plot to set up, and then sweep teams with a 60% flinch Air Slash, a very strong Moonblast with a 60% chance to lower Special Attack, and your choice of coverage between Earth Power for Toxapex and Flamethrower for Celesteela. It was very unhealthy as checking it often came down to how many flinches Air Slash gets.
I Have Never experienced natdex convergence, but here are my first impression of it globally, let me know If I am wrong here.
Teleport alomomola wishpass seems crazy, as Well as population bomb mlop. I dunno how this work or If it is Even legal but i'll try to avoid to mention banlisted things. The dual wingbeat gyarados is impression but I Give impressions: expanding force lele-> Too much. Very interesting options inteleport ledian. aegislash is imo one of The scariest With now Even more options With gholdengo's good as gold And movepool (you must run stance change on offensive sets tho) gholdengo swords dance new meta. sadly mega garde is banned cuz psychic surge then mega And expanding force on every oppo. ironpress steela seems fair to me, And finally has recovery! Unsure about toxic corv tho. I think spikes ironpress steela is very decent, And So is intimidate tinglu. some niche superpower contrary spdef snorlax bit holy what is that aqua step urshifu-R???
very niche things
-knock off wow scald sr infenape
-ceaseless edge crawdaunt
-trick room aggron mega
-nuzzle tapu koko
-weak armor blacephalon
-sticky web kleavor
-intimidate [too much things]
-fur coat snorlax
-unaware slack off wow teleport pyro ball fire types
-swords dance quick atk ursaluna
-probably more that I miss here.
Teleport alomomola wishpass seems crazy, as Well as population bomb mlop. I dunno how this work or If it is Even legal but i'll try to avoid to mention banlisted things. The dual wingbeat gyarados is impression but I Give impressions: expanding force lele-> Too much. Very interesting options in
very niche things
-knock off wow scald sr infenape
-ceaseless edge crawdaunt
-trick room aggron mega
-nuzzle tapu koko
-weak armor blacephalon
-sticky web kleavor
-intimidate [too much things]
-fur coat snorlax
-unaware slack off wow teleport pyro ball fire types
-swords dance quick atk ursaluna
-probably more that I miss here.
hey guys im here with some news
Ursaluna Bloodmoon has been quickbanned from National Dex Mix and Mega!
table of votes:
Reasoning:
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is capable of blasting past most teams, thanks to its signature move Blood moon, access to CM, recovery, insane special attack stat and good bulk. it could viably run lucarionite, manectite, absolite, and the -ates (pinsirite/altarianite), thereby forcing teams to have multiple answers in the same team because Blood Moon (move) being so strong literally claims a kill everytime it comes in. for example, CM psyshock lunala, though it answers luc / mane / absol, cannot reliably beat -ates. non-ampharosite toxic blissey has trouble dealing with altarianite, etc. as a cm sweeper it could brute force past most defensive options (like lati mage loses) and snowball, and its naturally high bulk+access to recovery makes it incredibly difficult to reliably revenge kill (often needing 2 rkillers lol like: 252 Atk Kartana @ Metagrossite Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon @ Lucarionite: 300-354 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; luna-bm can also run pinsirite btw). all in all, ursa-bm was too good at trading and the strain it puts on the builder was quite simply too much- so... RIP.
Ursaluna Bloodmoon has been quickbanned from National Dex Mix and Mega!
table of votes:
| zastra | Clas | Eledyr | Ryan | Rifk | db | FINAL VERDICT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ursaluna-B | BAN | DNB | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN | BAN |
Reasoning:
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is capable of blasting past most teams, thanks to its signature move Blood moon, access to CM, recovery, insane special attack stat and good bulk. it could viably run lucarionite, manectite, absolite, and the -ates (pinsirite/altarianite), thereby forcing teams to have multiple answers in the same team because Blood Moon (move) being so strong literally claims a kill everytime it comes in. for example, CM psyshock lunala, though it answers luc / mane / absol, cannot reliably beat -ates. non-ampharosite toxic blissey has trouble dealing with altarianite, etc. as a cm sweeper it could brute force past most defensive options (like lati mage loses) and snowball, and its naturally high bulk+access to recovery makes it incredibly difficult to reliably revenge kill (often needing 2 rkillers lol like: 252 Atk Kartana @ Metagrossite Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon @ Lucarionite: 300-354 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; luna-bm can also run pinsirite btw). all in all, ursa-bm was too good at trading and the strain it puts on the builder was quite simply too much- so... RIP.
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Having built a lot of teams (teamdump coming after finals) for NDOTSL, I have decided to make a personal VR:
Gods (nothing is in order)
S
Xerneas (Spe, Def, SpD)
Arceus-Water (Any)
Primal-Groudon (Spe, SpA, SpD)
A+
Primal-Kyogre (Atk, Spe, Def)
Zacian-Crowned (SpA)
Arceus-Normal (Any)
Arceus-Ground (Any)
Arceus-Fairy (Any)
A
Arceus-(most other forms)(Any)
Eternatus (Atk, Def, SpD)
Kyogre (Atk, Spe, Def)
Groudon (Spe, SpA, SpD)
Yveltal (Spe, Def, SpD)
Necrozma-DM (Spe, SpA, SpD)
Calyrex-Ice (SpA, Spe)
B
Mega-Mewtwo-Y (Def, Atk, SpD)
Kyurem-Black (Spe, SpD, Def)
Shuckle (HP Only)
Ho-Oh (Spe, Def, SpA)
Pheromosa (Def, SpD)
Deoxys (Def, SpD, HP)
Giratina (Atk, SpA, Spe)
Kyurem-White (Spe, Def, SpD)
Rayquaza (Def, SpD, Spe)
C
Mega-Mewtwo-X (Def, SpD, HP)
Zekrom (Spe, SpD, HP)
Palkia-Origin (HP, Def, Atk)
Palkia (HP, Spe, Def)
Giratina-Origin (Spe, Def, SpD
Dialga (Spe)
Dialga-Origin (Spe, Atk)
Lunala (Spe, Def)
Zamazenta-Crowned (SpA)
Reshiram (Spe)
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (Atk, Def)
The rest aren't really worth using imo
Receivers
S+
Melmetal (Spe)
S
Gliscor (HP, SpD, Atk)
S-
Alomomola (SpD, Def)
Tapu Koko (SpA, HP)
A
Skarmory (HP, SpD)
Gholdengo (HP, Spe)
Zygarde-50% (SpD, Atk)
Dragapult (SpA)
Dondozo (SpD)
Clodsire (Def)
Skeledirge (SpD, Spe)
Chien-Pao (Atk)
Alakazam-Mega (Def, HP)
A-
Tapu Fini (HP, SpA)
Rotom-Wash (HP, Spe, SpA)
Ferrothorn (HP)
Volcarona (Def)
Landorus-T (HP, SpD, Def, Spe)
Landorus-I (SpA, Spe)
Great Tusk (SpD, Spe)
Urshifu-Single-Strike (Spe, SpD)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (SpD, Spe)
B
Clefable (Def)
Tapu Lele (Spe, Def)
Baxcalibur (Spe)
Tornadus-T (HP, Def, SpD, SpA)
Victini (Atk)
Samurott-Hisui (Atk, Spe)
Zamazenta-Hero (Atk)
Lopunny-Mega (Atk)
Diancie-Mega (HP)
Annihilape (Spe, Def, SpD)
Hawlucha (Atk)
Iron Hands (Spe, SpD)
Ogerpon-Wellspring (Atk, Spe)
Palafin (SpD, Any)
Magnezone (HP, Spe)
There are a lot of other niche pokemon that are probably viable but i dont feel like ranking 50 unmons. If you have any suggestions feel free to throw me a ping in ndomcord
Gods (nothing is in order)
S
Xerneas (Spe, Def, SpD) Arceus-Water (Any) Primal-Groudon (Spe, SpA, SpD)A+
Primal-Kyogre (Atk, Spe, Def) Zacian-Crowned (SpA) Arceus-Normal (Any) Arceus-Ground (Any) Arceus-Fairy (Any)A
Arceus-(most other forms)(Any) Eternatus (Atk, Def, SpD) Kyogre (Atk, Spe, Def) Groudon (Spe, SpA, SpD) Yveltal (Spe, Def, SpD) Necrozma-DM (Spe, SpA, SpD) Calyrex-Ice (SpA, Spe)B
Mega-Mewtwo-Y (Def, Atk, SpD) Kyurem-Black (Spe, SpD, Def) Shuckle (HP Only) Ho-Oh (Spe, Def, SpA) Pheromosa (Def, SpD) Deoxys (Def, SpD, HP) Giratina (Atk, SpA, Spe) Kyurem-White (Spe, Def, SpD) Rayquaza (Def, SpD, Spe)C
Mega-Mewtwo-X (Def, SpD, HP) Zekrom (Spe, SpD, HP) Palkia-Origin (HP, Def, Atk) Palkia (HP, Spe, Def) Giratina-Origin (Spe, Def, SpD Dialga (Spe) Dialga-Origin (Spe, Atk) Lunala (Spe, Def) Zamazenta-Crowned (SpA) Reshiram (Spe) Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (Atk, Def)The rest aren't really worth using imo
Receivers
S+
S
Gliscor (HP, SpD, Atk)S-
Alomomola (SpD, Def) Tapu Koko (SpA, HP)A
Skarmory (HP, SpD) Gholdengo (HP, Spe) Zygarde-50% (SpD, Atk) Dragapult (SpA) Dondozo (SpD) Clodsire (Def) Skeledirge (SpD, Spe) Chien-Pao (Atk) Alakazam-Mega (Def, HP)A-
Tapu Fini (HP, SpA) Rotom-Wash (HP, Spe, SpA) Ferrothorn (HP) Volcarona (Def) Landorus-T (HP, SpD, Def, Spe) Landorus-I (SpA, Spe) Great Tusk (SpD, Spe) Urshifu-Single-Strike (Spe, SpD) Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (SpD, Spe)B
Clefable (Def) Tapu Lele (Spe, Def) Baxcalibur (Spe) Tornadus-T (HP, Def, SpD, SpA) Victini (Atk) Samurott-Hisui (Atk, Spe) Zamazenta-Hero (Atk) Lopunny-Mega (Atk) Diancie-Mega (HP) Annihilape (Spe, Def, SpD) Hawlucha (Atk) Iron Hands (Spe, SpD) Ogerpon-Wellspring (Atk, Spe) Palafin (SpD, Any) Magnezone (HP, Spe)There are a lot of other niche pokemon that are probably viable but i dont feel like ranking 50 unmons. If you have any suggestions feel free to throw me a ping in ndomcord
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Primal Groudon and Swellow are banned from Natdex Godly Gift
| Aera | Clas | NeonJolteonWasUsed | Orangex | The Dragon Master | Total | |
| Primal Groudon | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | DNB | 4-1 BAN |
| Swellow | Ban | Ban | DNB | Ban | Ban | 4-1 BAN |
Primal Groudon has been a force to be reckoned with since the mass unban paired with the definition change. Its exceptional offenses paired with high base power moves like Precipice Blades, Heat Crash, Overheat, and Solar Beam made it incredibly difficult to check. It was one of the best gods defensively as well, being able to stave off powerful threats such as Zacian, Xerneas, and Kyogre. What ultimately pushed it over the edge was its the versatility in its sets that all had widely different answers. Trying to check it offensively would be met with Rock Polish, whereas defensive answers could fall to either Swords Dance or Mixed sets. As a result of these factors Primal Groudon was decided to be too much for the tier to handle.
Swellow had one simple task in the tier: click Choice Specs Boomburst and watch stuff drop. With a special attack donation from gods like Eternatus or Mewtwo in tandem with Scrappy it quickly became unwallable, being able to 2HKO common specially defensive options like Clodsire and Alomomola. With coverage from moves like Heat Wave basically nothing could check Swellow defensively barring the rare Heatran, while its solid 125 base speed meant only a select number of Pokemon could check it offensively or revenge kill it. Ultimately Swellow was decided to be too difficult to keep in check.
Chien-Pao is another Pokemon still on our radar as its exceptional speed and power when given an attack donation make it one of the biggest threats on the physical side. While it can struggle against select defensive options like Rotom-Wash, Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Scizor, the overall pool of answers to it is pretty shallow. Ultimately we delayed voting on it as the reintroduction of Magearna could provide yet another defensive answer to it for teams. On that note we are retesting Magearna back into the tier and will come with a definitive verdict on its place soon.
Finally, Kris and Runo have stepped down as council members, myself and Orangex replacing them. We thank them for their time invested in the tier.
Terastallization is Banned From Natdex Little Cup (Flittle and Scraggy unbanned)
| Rarre | Charis | Flou | Melody | Roldski | |
| Vote | Abstain | Ban | Ban | Ban | Abstain (but probably DNB) |
After several months of delay, a whole team tour, and a promise of another natdex lc tour by Runo (bribery is effective against the Natdex LC council),we have deemed tera too much for the tier. Tera was very polarizing since the beginning of the generation, leading to the ban of Scraggy. As it turns out, Scraggy was not the only mon to abuse tera to an unhealthy degree.
With Tera blast Fire or Ice, Voltorb-H could break through it's short list of checks and had basically perfect coverage, which coupled with the best speed stat in the tier meant it was an extremely hard mon to stop.
Tera Fairy would remove its weakness to Sucker Punch, which was the main way of checking it, while also powering up Dazzling Gleam to OHKO most variants of Vullaby, one of it's main checks.
Tera Psychic removes it's weakness to Timburr Mach Punch, one of the main ways of checking it and also allowing it to OHKO Fighting Types like Mienfoo and bulkier poisons that could be used to soft check it like Foongus and Marenie.
+2 248 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Tera Water Clamperl Surf vs. 124 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Tera Ghost allowed Nasty Plot sets to avoid damage from Fake Out and Mach Punch which were the main ways of chipping it down after it set up, leading to unhealthy 50/50s where you would have to Knock Off a dark type and risk giving it +2 speed while it was setting up.
There are many other mons that would abuse Tera but these are the main ones that caught our attention. It would be insane to ban all of these mons from the meta, so the council decided to remove the common feature that made all of these mons unhealthy. In short, Tera is Banned and Flittle and Scraggy are freed from Natdex LC.
I decided to share my thoughts on this decision here due to me being muted from the ndlc cord because of corruptionTerastallization is Banned From Natdex Little Cup (Flittle and Scraggy unbanned)
Rarre Charis Flou Melody Roldski Vote Abstain Ban Ban Ban Abstain (but probably DNB)
After several months of delay, a whole team tour, and a promise of another natdex lc tour by Runo (bribery is effective against the Natdex LC council),we have deemed tera too much for the tier. Tera was very polarizing since the beginning of the generation, leading to the ban of Scraggy. As it turns out, Scraggy was not the only mon to abuse tera to an unhealthy degree.
With Tera blast Fire or Ice, Voltorb-H could break through it's short list of checks and had basically perfect coverage, which coupled with the best speed stat in the tier meant it was an extremely hard mon to stop.
Tera Fairy would remove its weakness to Sucker Punch, which was the main way of checking it, while also powering up Dazzling Gleam to OHKO most variants of Vullaby, one of it's main checks.
Tera Psychic removes it's weakness to Timburr Mach Punch, one of the main ways of checking it and also allowing it to OHKO Fighting Types like Mienfoo and bulkier poisons that could be used to soft check it like Foongus and Marenie.
+2 248 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Tera Water Clamperl Surf vs. 124 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Tera Ghost allowed Nasty Plot sets to avoid damage from Fake Out and Mach Punch which were the main ways of chipping it down after it set up, leading to unhealthy 50/50s where you would have to Knock Off a dark type and risk giving it +2 speed while it was setting up.
There are many other mons that would abuse Tera but these are the main ones that caught our attention. It would be insane to ban all of these mons from the meta, so the council decided to remove the common feature that made all of these mons unhealthy. In short, Tera is Banned and Flittle and Scraggy are freed from Natdex LC.
After discussion with the NDOMs leaders, the metagame approval process was modified to align with ND Other Tiers’ policy. If you want to submit a metagame for approval, make sure it follows the following guidelines:
- The council should have some experience with Smogon tiering and with playing the game in general. We won’t require you to have insert-big-tournament-name winner level of the game, but showing you already have some experience will significantly increase the odds of your metagame to be improved.
- Your metagame has to have some resources ready, to help new players to get into your metagame. Sample teams in particular, and to a lesser extent a viability ranking/list, are very good things to have.
- There needs to be a decent amount of interest for your metagame for it to be approved.
STABmons
Pokemon
Archaludon: I like the typing of this mon. I'm unsure how well it will do in this metagame because it doesn't gain that much from STAB. Doom Desire or Fickle Beam sets seem interesting.
Hydrapple: I like this as a defensive response to Ogerpon-Water with Strength Sap, especially since Ogerpon-Water wants to run SD, Surging Strikes and Jet Punch on 75% of its sets. Apple Acid means that it isn't passive. However, it is a slow Pokemon in an offense-dominated metagame, and strong defensive Grass types like Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu give it even more competition.
Gouging Fire: Strong Fire that could carry Sun alongside Roaring Moon and Great Tusk. Does have a bit of competition with Mega Charizard X. There could be niche differentiation, though, since Mega ZardX hits harder in general (making it better for offence and Screens). Dragon Dance + Glaive Rush + Bitter Blade sounds nasty. Could run something bulky to check Pokemon like Bulu.
Raging Bolt: Strong special attacking stat but meh speed for the metagame. This could be a slow, bulky trader if it has a niche. Pretty good user of Thunderclap since Electric/Dragon has nice coverage in this meta. Also, a decent check to Gyarados fwiw.
Iron Boulder: This gets stronger in STABmons with Photon Geyser, Accelerock and Diamond Storm. However, it doesn't like the commonness of Beak Blast users nor strong priority users like Mega Scizor, Volcanion, Manaphy, Urshifu etc.
Iron Crown: This could be a funky Stored Power user with its decent bulk. Gets Take Heart too. Slower than Jirachi but much stronger. I can see this on Screens to help deal with specific Stall-mons.
Terapagos: Stellar Terapagos is banned as a casualty of the Tera ban. I still think this is too much with CM, Boomburst, Earth Power and Soft Boiled. Ursaluna Blood Moon on crack, if you can believe that.
Pecharunt: Yeah, we'll get this out of the way immediately. Interesting Pokemon. 88/160/88 is fine for the metagame and the typing is middle of the road. However, with the natural ability + movepool combo combined with access to an expanded movepool in STABmons, I can see this running either a Bulky Calm Mind set with Moongeist Beam (which is a worse ghold tbh) or a defensive mortal spin + infernal parade user (Glowking at home).
Moves
Convergence
Nope. This thing is most likely broken on its own, let alone the fact that it will open a can of worms surrounding bulky normal sweepers.
This existing means that Dialga is safely locked away in Ubers. Aside from that, this seems more like a receiver mon with slightly better special defences than Hisui-Goodra (which isn't the best mon in the metagame, regardless). This could work alongside a drizzle user like Inteleon or Manaphy to make a wall-breaking combo. Shell Armour, Sap Sipper, Stamina, Sturdy, and even Light Metal and Gooey are all wonderful tools to help optimise Archaludon.
Stamina is a nice tool to donate to Goodra (which has immensely better special but middling physical bulk). Yeah, you can use Archaludon for the same niche, but having a greater special bulk is more valuable for this role imo.
I'll be blunt, Gouging Fire is an inferior Mega Charizard X in pure damage output. However, the ability to run an item like Heavy Duty Boots or pull Photosynthesis shenanigans gives it an angle that ZardX can't replicate. Zard-X plays similarly to in AAA where it's a late-game cleaner with Drought. Gouging-Fire, instead, uses drought support to break holes in the opposition. I can see this pushing Heat Rock over the edge, but counterplay does exist with fat water types (ala Dozo) and phys def Lando. Swords Dance + Scale Shot also sounds nice, but the 2-turn setup is less reliable. With access to Roost from ZardX and Turtonator's movepool (Rapid Spin, Body Press etc.), it could also pull off a niche defensive set that can capitalise on its ability to switch into certain physical attackers in the tier and mess around with set-up Celesteelas.
Turtonator gets some nice tools from Gouging Fire ig, but the extra competition effectively cancels the buff out.
It's crazy how Grass / Dragon fumbles so much in convergence despite having much going for it. Mega Sceptile is a pretty scary Pokemon because it inherits from Grass types, not grass/dragon mons. Hydrapple might be the answer to a lot of issues plaguing Grass/Dragon types with its respectable bulk allowing it to abuse Apple Acid, Alolan Exeggutor and Mega Sceptile's special movepool (Flamethrower, Focus Blast, etc.) combined with pivoting options in Teleport (from eggy) or U-turn (from Flapple) to act as a slow regenerator pivot.
Appletun could be slightly better with regen, but the stat lines are too similar to Hydrapple to matter meaningfully. Eggy Alola does get better as a TR sweeper with Nasty Plot from Hydrapple and Fickle Bleam on top of good coverage. I can see it working as an alternative to Mega Ampharos. Flapple gets nothing as usual.
Probably the scariest mon in this list ngl. Levitate is a nice defensive ability, though competes heavily Quark Drive (interestingly, Levitate Iron Boulder can beat Lando running EQ and Facade only by out-boosting). It gets Acrobatics from Lunatone and Solrock, and Flare Blitz from Solrock, which helps it immensely coverage-wise. Normalium-Z Explosion or Double Edge is another possible route. If anything, Convergence accentuates all the things that make this mon scary in standard play. Even a Lead Set with either Taunt Rocks or Taunt Dual Screens sounds feasible (although it would be a waste of such a strong Pokemon).
Nobody is running Solrock and Lunatone.
Steel / Psychic is perhaps the most underrated type in convergence. Despite being loaded with Jirachi, Bronzong and Metagross, all the Pokemon seem mediocre. Iron Crown could change this trajectory as it looks like a potent Z-Celebrate abuser with its solid stat spread. Plus, Clear Body from Metagross, Levitate from Bronzong and Serene Grace from Jirachi all have their own unique situational applications. IronPress or Cosmic Press is another route. As are offensive Calm Mind Sets. Thank god stored power is banned!
Side note: the DLC granting Metagross Knock-Off means Jirachi can now pull off utility sets. Metagross getting SD from Iron Crown is also cool, although it's just Kingambit at home.
Plays very similarly to Mega Ampharos. Mega Ampharos leverages the movepool it shares with other mono electrics to be a threatening trick room sweeper with utility options in slack-off. Raging Bolt cannot pull from a move pool as deep since it relies on Ampharos-Mega and Dracozolt. It will play like a Specially Offensive Dracozolt with strong coverage (Electric/Dragon is way scarier specially) and valuable priority. This does feel like a special Dracozolt with that absurdly high special attack stat and workable speed to boot. Sand Rush Raging Bolt could be a legitimate option, although Dracozolt's kill power is hard to pass up for most sand teams. Mold Breaker Raging Bolt will fit wonderfully onto many teams thanks to its ability to shut down stuff like Unaware Chansey with Taunt and Calm Mind. Protosynthesis acts as a middle ground between the two sets with the 1-time ability to boost speed or special attack. Movepool additions like Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Taunt from Dracozolt, and Cotton Guard, Focus Blast and Agility from Mega Ampharos help add an extra dimension to this Pokemon. I can see this paired with Koko to create a deadly rising voltage core.
Dracozolt has 2 modes: Mold breaker stall killer and Sand Rush. With Raging Bolt bringing along Protosynthesis, it's interesting how the metagame responds to it. Sand Rush Dracozolt had issues thudding into defensive structures, whilst Mold Breaker could be outgunned by faster offensive threats. Protosynthesis means that Dracozolt can play like Mega Sharpedo - sit in the back and clean up when all the answers are weakened. Dragon Hammer is an excellent STAB to facilitate this set.
I wonder how healthy Raging Bolt will be for the metagame. It can break through many teams by itself and pushing Dracozolt Bolt Beak spam to new levels isn't the healthiest thing for a metagame.
We don't know the full move pool for this. Regardless, it would appreciate the Focus Blast donation from Gengar. Maybe it'll help out Gengar in return, maybe not. Tbh, Gengar is a bit underexplored at this point. Competition from Blacephalon is tough, but Nasty Plot + that typing + levitate surely has to count for something.
NFE
Let's put our thinking caps here. What do you think a 535 BST Steel/Dragon Pokemon will do in a metagame where the average BST is in the 390s, dominated by Grass, Poison and Water types? Fighting/Ground types are in the tier, but how many can confidently take a Specs Draco Meteor from Duraludon? Not to mention that Modest is free since most of the stuff that can outspeed you won't OHKO you bar +2 Gabite or Focus Blast Electabuzz.
Still, having a few room tours with this thing would be fun.
This could go either way. On one hand, this Pokemon is pretty passive. On the other hand, this Pokemon has better bulk than Porygon-2 and has reliable recovery to boot. I like this as a Pokemon that limits Rhydon and Electabuzz, but I wonder if the bulk makes it unkillable for most teams. Growth isn't the best set-up move, but I could see Growth-sets being the tipping point for this Mon.
Questions for the Crowd
Pokemon
Archaludon: I like the typing of this mon. I'm unsure how well it will do in this metagame because it doesn't gain that much from STAB. Doom Desire or Fickle Beam sets seem interesting.
Hydrapple: I like this as a defensive response to Ogerpon-Water with Strength Sap, especially since Ogerpon-Water wants to run SD, Surging Strikes and Jet Punch on 75% of its sets. Apple Acid means that it isn't passive. However, it is a slow Pokemon in an offense-dominated metagame, and strong defensive Grass types like Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu give it even more competition.
Gouging Fire: Strong Fire that could carry Sun alongside Roaring Moon and Great Tusk. Does have a bit of competition with Mega Charizard X. There could be niche differentiation, though, since Mega ZardX hits harder in general (making it better for offence and Screens). Dragon Dance + Glaive Rush + Bitter Blade sounds nasty. Could run something bulky to check Pokemon like Bulu.
Raging Bolt: Strong special attacking stat but meh speed for the metagame. This could be a slow, bulky trader if it has a niche. Pretty good user of Thunderclap since Electric/Dragon has nice coverage in this meta. Also, a decent check to Gyarados fwiw.
Iron Boulder: This gets stronger in STABmons with Photon Geyser, Accelerock and Diamond Storm. However, it doesn't like the commonness of Beak Blast users nor strong priority users like Mega Scizor, Volcanion, Manaphy, Urshifu etc.
Iron Crown: This could be a funky Stored Power user with its decent bulk. Gets Take Heart too. Slower than Jirachi but much stronger. I can see this on Screens to help deal with specific Stall-mons.
Terapagos: Stellar Terapagos is banned as a casualty of the Tera ban. I still think this is too much with CM, Boomburst, Earth Power and Soft Boiled. Ursaluna Blood Moon on crack, if you can believe that.
Pecharunt: Yeah, we'll get this out of the way immediately. Interesting Pokemon. 88/160/88 is fine for the metagame and the typing is middle of the road. However, with the natural ability + movepool combo combined with access to an expanded movepool in STABmons, I can see this running either a Bulky Calm Mind set with Moongeist Beam (which is a worse ghold tbh) or a defensive mortal spin + infernal parade user (Glowking at home).
Moves
Electro Shot: Rain electric types (like Zapdos and Thundurus formes) will run this move. Really solid alternative to Thunder that's better for the 8 turns that rain goes up for.
Tera Starstorm: Inferior Boomburst. If Boomburst ends up being banned, then this will replace it.
Fickle Beam: I'm not sure how to feel about this move. It will most likely be restricted because the ability to randomly get a 160 BP move can be seen as uncompetitive. However, at the same time, it's a weaker Dragon Pulse. Hydrapple should be fine even with this move since the Pokemon has the same issues in STAB as it does in OU (slow, awkward defensive typing).
Burning Bulwark: Not many Fire-type Pokemon click protect in this Metagame, so I'm not sure how useful this is long-term. Something like Heatran could run this on ToxTect sets as an alternative for Protect.
Thunderclap: Priority Sucker Punch for electric types is an interesting option, but most electric types are strapped for coverage as is with all the ground types in the tier and the miscellaneous special walls. I think it could be legitimately broken on something like Xurkitree, but having to sacrifice 3 slots for Set Up move and 2 electric STAB options could be a limitation that keeps Xurk from spamming the yellow button.
Mighty Cleave: Goated rock move. This will be the go-to rock move unless you want the power of Diamond Storm or the quirks of Accelerock and Stone Axe.
Tachyon Cutter: Stronger flash cannon for special attacking steels that can't miss. Few steels will use this, but I can see Specs Magnezone or Heatran running this move as an alternative to Steel Beam or Flash Cannon.
Hard press: This is Wring Out but with a pitiful Z-move power.
Dragon Cheer: Doubles exclusive move.
Alluring Voice: Very situational move for defensive Pokemon. Something like Unaware Clefable could run this, but confusion got nerfed hard in gen7.
Temper Flare: Temper Flare, like Stomping Tantrum, is a good coverage move but a crappy STAB move. Fire types already have access to strong physical STAB options like Bitter Blade, Fire Lash, Pyro Ball and Sacred Fire. Even Raging Fury has a more immediately beneficial secondary effect. Still, I can see this move being useful on something like Mega Charizard X since the other moves it normally runs (Earthquake and Dragon Claw) have common immunities.
Supercell Slam: This is an Electric Jump Kick. Electric types already have access to the stronger and more accurate Plasma Fists as is. I don't see why you run this.
Psychic Noise: Good move to shut down defensive Pokemon. Most Pokemon that could conceivably run this (think Hoopa-U or Mega Gardevoir) already get it. However, there are other special attacking Psychic types like Meloetta and Victini that don't.
Upper Hands: I love this move in a priority spam meta. Even if it becomes predictable, the ability to pick off priority users at low HP at any point in time is valuable. Distribution is also low enough for this not to be an issue itself.
Malignant Chain: Jumping ahead here, but this is the strongest poison move (tied with Side Shell Arm) and has a nice secondary effect.
Tera Starstorm: Inferior Boomburst. If Boomburst ends up being banned, then this will replace it.
Fickle Beam: I'm not sure how to feel about this move. It will most likely be restricted because the ability to randomly get a 160 BP move can be seen as uncompetitive. However, at the same time, it's a weaker Dragon Pulse. Hydrapple should be fine even with this move since the Pokemon has the same issues in STAB as it does in OU (slow, awkward defensive typing).
Burning Bulwark: Not many Fire-type Pokemon click protect in this Metagame, so I'm not sure how useful this is long-term. Something like Heatran could run this on ToxTect sets as an alternative for Protect.
Thunderclap: Priority Sucker Punch for electric types is an interesting option, but most electric types are strapped for coverage as is with all the ground types in the tier and the miscellaneous special walls. I think it could be legitimately broken on something like Xurkitree, but having to sacrifice 3 slots for Set Up move and 2 electric STAB options could be a limitation that keeps Xurk from spamming the yellow button.
Mighty Cleave: Goated rock move. This will be the go-to rock move unless you want the power of Diamond Storm or the quirks of Accelerock and Stone Axe.
Tachyon Cutter: Stronger flash cannon for special attacking steels that can't miss. Few steels will use this, but I can see Specs Magnezone or Heatran running this move as an alternative to Steel Beam or Flash Cannon.
Hard press: This is Wring Out but with a pitiful Z-move power.
Dragon Cheer: Doubles exclusive move.
Alluring Voice: Very situational move for defensive Pokemon. Something like Unaware Clefable could run this, but confusion got nerfed hard in gen7.
Temper Flare: Temper Flare, like Stomping Tantrum, is a good coverage move but a crappy STAB move. Fire types already have access to strong physical STAB options like Bitter Blade, Fire Lash, Pyro Ball and Sacred Fire. Even Raging Fury has a more immediately beneficial secondary effect. Still, I can see this move being useful on something like Mega Charizard X since the other moves it normally runs (Earthquake and Dragon Claw) have common immunities.
Supercell Slam: This is an Electric Jump Kick. Electric types already have access to the stronger and more accurate Plasma Fists as is. I don't see why you run this.
Psychic Noise: Good move to shut down defensive Pokemon. Most Pokemon that could conceivably run this (think Hoopa-U or Mega Gardevoir) already get it. However, there are other special attacking Psychic types like Meloetta and Victini that don't.
Upper Hands: I love this move in a priority spam meta. Even if it becomes predictable, the ability to pick off priority users at low HP at any point in time is valuable. Distribution is also low enough for this not to be an issue itself.
Malignant Chain: Jumping ahead here, but this is the strongest poison move (tied with Side Shell Arm) and has a nice secondary effect.
Convergence
Nope. This thing is most likely broken on its own, let alone the fact that it will open a can of worms surrounding bulky normal sweepers.
This existing means that Dialga is safely locked away in Ubers. Aside from that, this seems more like a receiver mon with slightly better special defences than Hisui-Goodra (which isn't the best mon in the metagame, regardless). This could work alongside a drizzle user like Inteleon or Manaphy to make a wall-breaking combo. Shell Armour, Sap Sipper, Stamina, Sturdy, and even Light Metal and Gooey are all wonderful tools to help optimise Archaludon.
Stamina is a nice tool to donate to Goodra (which has immensely better special but middling physical bulk). Yeah, you can use Archaludon for the same niche, but having a greater special bulk is more valuable for this role imo.
I'll be blunt, Gouging Fire is an inferior Mega Charizard X in pure damage output. However, the ability to run an item like Heavy Duty Boots or pull Photosynthesis shenanigans gives it an angle that ZardX can't replicate. Zard-X plays similarly to in AAA where it's a late-game cleaner with Drought. Gouging-Fire, instead, uses drought support to break holes in the opposition. I can see this pushing Heat Rock over the edge, but counterplay does exist with fat water types (ala Dozo) and phys def Lando. Swords Dance + Scale Shot also sounds nice, but the 2-turn setup is less reliable. With access to Roost from ZardX and Turtonator's movepool (Rapid Spin, Body Press etc.), it could also pull off a niche defensive set that can capitalise on its ability to switch into certain physical attackers in the tier and mess around with set-up Celesteelas.
Turtonator gets some nice tools from Gouging Fire ig, but the extra competition effectively cancels the buff out.
It's crazy how Grass / Dragon fumbles so much in convergence despite having much going for it. Mega Sceptile is a pretty scary Pokemon because it inherits from Grass types, not grass/dragon mons. Hydrapple might be the answer to a lot of issues plaguing Grass/Dragon types with its respectable bulk allowing it to abuse Apple Acid, Alolan Exeggutor and Mega Sceptile's special movepool (Flamethrower, Focus Blast, etc.) combined with pivoting options in Teleport (from eggy) or U-turn (from Flapple) to act as a slow regenerator pivot.
Appletun could be slightly better with regen, but the stat lines are too similar to Hydrapple to matter meaningfully. Eggy Alola does get better as a TR sweeper with Nasty Plot from Hydrapple and Fickle Bleam on top of good coverage. I can see it working as an alternative to Mega Ampharos. Flapple gets nothing as usual.
Probably the scariest mon in this list ngl. Levitate is a nice defensive ability, though competes heavily Quark Drive (interestingly, Levitate Iron Boulder can beat Lando running EQ and Facade only by out-boosting). It gets Acrobatics from Lunatone and Solrock, and Flare Blitz from Solrock, which helps it immensely coverage-wise. Normalium-Z Explosion or Double Edge is another possible route. If anything, Convergence accentuates all the things that make this mon scary in standard play. Even a Lead Set with either Taunt Rocks or Taunt Dual Screens sounds feasible (although it would be a waste of such a strong Pokemon).
Nobody is running Solrock and Lunatone.
Steel / Psychic is perhaps the most underrated type in convergence. Despite being loaded with Jirachi, Bronzong and Metagross, all the Pokemon seem mediocre. Iron Crown could change this trajectory as it looks like a potent Z-Celebrate abuser with its solid stat spread. Plus, Clear Body from Metagross, Levitate from Bronzong and Serene Grace from Jirachi all have their own unique situational applications. IronPress or Cosmic Press is another route. As are offensive Calm Mind Sets. Thank god stored power is banned!
Side note: the DLC granting Metagross Knock-Off means Jirachi can now pull off utility sets. Metagross getting SD from Iron Crown is also cool, although it's just Kingambit at home.
Plays very similarly to Mega Ampharos. Mega Ampharos leverages the movepool it shares with other mono electrics to be a threatening trick room sweeper with utility options in slack-off. Raging Bolt cannot pull from a move pool as deep since it relies on Ampharos-Mega and Dracozolt. It will play like a Specially Offensive Dracozolt with strong coverage (Electric/Dragon is way scarier specially) and valuable priority. This does feel like a special Dracozolt with that absurdly high special attack stat and workable speed to boot. Sand Rush Raging Bolt could be a legitimate option, although Dracozolt's kill power is hard to pass up for most sand teams. Mold Breaker Raging Bolt will fit wonderfully onto many teams thanks to its ability to shut down stuff like Unaware Chansey with Taunt and Calm Mind. Protosynthesis acts as a middle ground between the two sets with the 1-time ability to boost speed or special attack. Movepool additions like Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Taunt from Dracozolt, and Cotton Guard, Focus Blast and Agility from Mega Ampharos help add an extra dimension to this Pokemon. I can see this paired with Koko to create a deadly rising voltage core.
Dracozolt has 2 modes: Mold breaker stall killer and Sand Rush. With Raging Bolt bringing along Protosynthesis, it's interesting how the metagame responds to it. Sand Rush Dracozolt had issues thudding into defensive structures, whilst Mold Breaker could be outgunned by faster offensive threats. Protosynthesis means that Dracozolt can play like Mega Sharpedo - sit in the back and clean up when all the answers are weakened. Dragon Hammer is an excellent STAB to facilitate this set.
I wonder how healthy Raging Bolt will be for the metagame. It can break through many teams by itself and pushing Dracozolt Bolt Beak spam to new levels isn't the healthiest thing for a metagame.
We don't know the full move pool for this. Regardless, it would appreciate the Focus Blast donation from Gengar. Maybe it'll help out Gengar in return, maybe not. Tbh, Gengar is a bit underexplored at this point. Competition from Blacephalon is tough, but Nasty Plot + that typing + levitate surely has to count for something.
NFE
Let's put our thinking caps here. What do you think a 535 BST Steel/Dragon Pokemon will do in a metagame where the average BST is in the 390s, dominated by Grass, Poison and Water types? Fighting/Ground types are in the tier, but how many can confidently take a Specs Draco Meteor from Duraludon? Not to mention that Modest is free since most of the stuff that can outspeed you won't OHKO you bar +2 Gabite or Focus Blast Electabuzz.
Still, having a few room tours with this thing would be fun.
252 Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This could go either way. On one hand, this Pokemon is pretty passive. On the other hand, this Pokemon has better bulk than Porygon-2 and has reliable recovery to boot. I like this as a Pokemon that limits Rhydon and Electabuzz, but I wonder if the bulk makes it unkillable for most teams. Growth isn't the best set-up move, but I could see Growth-sets being the tipping point for this Mon.
252 Atk Choice Band Libero Raboot Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dipplin: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Questions for the Crowd
- Interested to hear thoughts on how the new changes affect ND AAA or ND GG from the vets here.
- Thoughts on Dipplin and Duraludon in NFE?
- Any Pokemon I underrated for STABmons or Convergence? Overrated? lmk
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