Movepool Revisions - Revenankh

[eric the espeon]

Approved and sponsored by tennisace.

If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. This is not a Policy Review thread, but requires intelligent posting and serious thought put into every post made.

Introduction:

This is the thread where we will be revising Revenankh's movepool. All aspects of Revenankh's movepool, including TM moves, Move Tutor moves, Level-Up moves, and Egg Moves will be revised according to the limits listed below and the requirements listed in this process guide article. All process details for the revisions can be found in this thread.

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits:

This is where the BSR Overall Rating and Movepool Limit are decided. In accordance with this process guide article, all CAPs must have a Overall BSR limit that is balanced by the maximum of that CAP's Very Good Move (VGM) limit. The calculator for the Overall BSR of a Pokemon can be found here.

Revenankh's Overall BSR: 289 (Good)

Revenankh's Resulting Movepool Size Limit: 85
Revenankh's Resulting VGM Limit: 40
​

Current Movepool:

Reference: Final Movepool, primary discussion thread, extra poll.
Move Count: 62
VGM Count: 35
​

Level-Up Moves

Total: 17
VGM: 8

Level Up Moves:
1. Ice Punch*
1. Wrap
1. Bide
3. Sand Tomb
7. Rock Tomb
10. Imprison
14. Arm Thrust
18. Mean Look*
21. Glare*
24. AncientPower
28. Shadow Punch*
32. Revenge
36. Power Whip*
45. Hammer Arm*
52. Grudge
52. Curse*
60. Moonlight*

TM/HM Moves

Total: 35
VGM: 19 (1 repeat)

TMs:
1. Focus Punch*
6. Toxic*
8. Bulk Up*
10. Hidden Power*
11. Sunny Day
12. Taunt*
15. Hyper Beam*
17. Protect*
20. Safeguard
21. Frustration*
26. Earthquake*
27. Return*
30. Shadow Ball*
31. Brick Break*
32. Double Team
37. Sandstorm
39. Rock Tomb
41. Torment
43. Secret Power
44. Rest*
48. Skill Swap
52. Focus Blast*
56. Fling
58. Endure
60. Drain Punch
63. Embargo
66. Payback*
68. Giga Impact
79. Dark Pulse*
80. Rock Slide*
82. Sleep Talk*
87. Swagger
90. Substitute*
HM04. Strength
HM06. Rock Smash

Egg Moves

Total: 11
VGM: 8

Egg Groups:
Indeterminate
Humanshape

Moves
Shadow Sneak*
Mach Punch*
Memento*
Spite
Destiny Bond*
Pursuit*
Ominous Wind
Knock Off*
Night Shade*
Nasty Plot*
Force Palm

Move Tutor Moves

Total: 0
VGM: 0

None

New Movepool WIP:

Move Count: 75
VGM Count: 37
​

Level-Up Moves

Total: 14
VGM: 6

Level Up Moves:
- Wrap
- Bide
5. Sand Tomb
9. Wring Out
13. Rock Tomb
18. Arm Thrust
23. Mean Look*
26. Glare*
29. Shadow Punch*
33. Revenge
38. Power Whip*
44. Hammer Arm*
52. Punishment
62. Moonlight*

TM/HM Moves

Total: 40 (1 Repeat (Rock Tomb))
VGM: 19 (1 Repeat (Return/Frustration))

TM01 Focus Punch*
TM06 Toxic*
TM08 Bulk Up*
TM10 Hidden Power*
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt*
TM15 Hyper Beam*
TM17 Protect*
TM18 Rain Dance*
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration*
TM26 Earthquake*
TM27 Return*
TM30 Shadow Ball*
TM31 Brick Break*
TM32 Double Team
TM37 Sandstorm
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest*
TM45 Attract
TM52 Focus Blast*
TM56 Fling
TM58 Endure
TM60 Drain Punch
TM63 Embargo
TM66 Payback*
TM68 Giga Impact
TM77 Psych Up
TM78 Captivate
TM80 Rock Slide*
TM82 Sleep Talk*
TM83 Natural Gift
TM85 Dream Eater
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute*
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash

Egg Moves

Total: 8
VGM: 4

Egg Groups:
Indeterminate
Humanshape

Moves
Shadow Sneak*
Curse
Mach Punch*
Memento*
Destiny Bond*
Ominous Wind
Nasty Plot*
Force Palm

Legal Egg Combinations:
Curse + Destiny Bond + Memento + Shadow Sneak (ADV Dusclops through ADV Weezing)
Force Palm (Hariyama, Lucario, Medicham)
Nasty Plot + Mach Punch (Infernape)
Curse + Destiny Bond + Memento + Nasty Plot + Shadow Sneak (Spiritomb)

Move Tutor Moves

Total: 15 (Repeats 1)
VGM: 8

AncientPower
Counter*
Helping Hand
Ice Punch*
Knock Off*
Metronome
Mimic
Mud-Slap
Ominous Wind
Pain Split*
Spite
Sucker Punch*
Superpower*
Trick*
Vacuum Wave*

Justification:

Initial thoughts:
- Movepool well within limits currently, but once I start adding tutor moves that may well change. Will probably make minimal notable competitive changes, Rev is largely a one trick pony.
- W-o-W is required by the Move-Type guidelines, but there was a specific poll to decide whether to include it which ended with a large majority against. This is the early CaP equivalent of a TL rejection, so unless someone comes up with a very convincing argument to add it in it will not be included.
- Other missing type-move and move-moves are: Vacuum Wave, Dream Eater, Psych Up, Rain Dance, Sucker Punch, Trick. So far, I can't see strong reasons against including them. SP could give it a bit of variety, but also a power boost and before the Pt tutor gave it huge distribution it was not considered at all. Leaning towards including it since it fits perfectly, but I'd like opinions.

Sorry about not posting it sooner, the power went out while I was mid way through writing this yesterday and stayed off most of the night. Will get a preliminary tutor list up asap, then work on the rest.

Edit:

Ok, got an initial movepool together. It's over the limits by some way, but that was my plan. Start over the limits and remove until it's comfortably within them, Rev does not need a huge movepool with it's ideally placed stats and a few key moves. Hopefully I'll make a few non BU sets roughly workable and introduce just a hint of variety.

I've included Superpower even though it was not decided as the primary fighting move in the poll. It will not become the primary fighting move on Rev since the 20 base power and 10 accuracy are offset by the -1 Atk/Def. It will allow more hit and run type sets to get a little use, though I don't expect any of them to be anything like as effective as the standard BU set. The other notable competitive moves added are Trick and Sucker Punch. Trick could just about make a CB set viable, and nearly everything gets it. Sucker Punch fits perfectly with Rev's flavor, and will be a fun but in my opinion, and that of #cap when I asked, probably minor addition to the BU set.

 

[Deck Knight]

Dusk uses spreadsheets but I prefer the old fashioned way.

Total Moves: 75
VGM: 39

Level-Up Moves

Total: 14
VGM: 6

Level Up Moves:
1. Wrap
1. Bide
2. Sand Tomb
6. Rock Tomb
10. Imprison
14. Arm Thrust
18. Mean Look*
22. Glare*
26. Shadow Punch*
30. Revenge
38. Power Whip*
46. Hammer Arm*
54. Grudge
62. Moonlight*

Level-Up move looks fine, but I don't like the aesthetics of Level 2 Sand Tomb. I usually use a hypen to denote initial moves (and H. for Heart Scale). So really it's just the aesthetics I think need work.

TM/HM Moves

Total: 36 (1 Repeat (Rock Tomb))
VGM: 19 (1 Repeat (Return/Frustration))

TMs:
TM01. Focus Punch*
TM06. Toxic*
TM08. Bulk Up*
TM10. Hidden Power*
TM11. Sunny Day
TM12. Taunt*
TM15. Hyper Beam*
TM17. Protect*
TM18. Rain Dance*
TM20. Safeguard
TM21. Frustration*
TM26. Earthquake*
TM27. Return*
TM30. Shadow Ball*
TM31. Brick Break*
TM32. Double Team
TM37. Sandstorm
TM39. Rock Tomb
TM41. Torment
TM43. Secret Power
TM44. Rest*
TM52. Focus Blast*
TM56. Fling
TM58. Endure
TM60. Drain Punch
TM63. Embargo
TM66. Payback*
TM68. Giga Impact
TM77: Psych Up
TM80. Rock Slide*
TM82. Sleep Talk*
TM85. Dream Eater
TM87. Swagger
TM90. Substitute*
HM04. Strength
HM06. Rock Smash

I've added in the type-move requirements sans Will-O-Wisp because of the polls of the time.

Egg Moves

Total: 8
VGM: 4

Egg Groups:
Indeterminate
Humanshape

Moves
Shadow Sneak*
Curse
Mach Punch*
Memento*
Destiny Bond*
Ominous Wind
Nasty Plot*
Force Palm

Legal Egg Combinations:
Counter + Curse + Destiny Bond + Memento + Shadow Sneak (ADV Dusclops through ADV Weezing)
Counter + Force Palm (Hariyama)
Counter + Mach Punch (Hitmonchan)
Counter + Nasty Plot (Toxicroak)
Curse + Destiny Bond + Grudge + Memento + Nasty Plot + Shadow Sneak (Spiritomb)

Just filled out Egg Move combos for you, really.

Move Tutor Moves

Total: 19 (Repeats 1)
VGM: 11

AncientPower
Counter*
Gravity*
Headbutt
Helping Hand
Ice Punch*
Icy Wind
Knock Off*
Metronome
Mimic
Mud-Slap
Ominous Wind
Pain Split*
Seismic Toss*
Spite
Sucker Punch*
Superpower*
Trick*
Vacuum Wave*
Zen Headbutt*

Everything seems in order here.

Summary:

Add Rain Dance, Psych Up, and Dream Eater to TMs.

Everything is already there, really. It's not that important, but you do have room for Stone Edge if you want to add it or Thunderpunch if you want them.

 

[tennisace]

Playtesting has shown that Will-O-Wisp isn't broken in the least, even with the new overpowered stat spread. There was no actual TL override, just a poll back at the beginning of the cap process. I want to override this poll based on solid playtesting evidence and the new Type-Move requirements.

 

[Fuzznip]

In agreement with tennisace. When I think of Revenankh's concept, I don't believe he's just a Bulk Up abuser, he's also the ultimate spinblocker. This is why I think Will-O-Wisp needs to stay. Revenankh can fulfill a spinblocking role for every kind of style of team. Offensive teams use Bulk Up Revenankh to protect their entry hazards, while defensive teams use Will-O-Wisp Revenankh to protect their entry hazards. And, like tennis said, Will-O-Wisp isn't broken on Revenankh. It should stay IMO.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Hi. Finished a spreadsheet for this and found a few mistakes. You did great in counting your movepool, the counts are dead-on. You're a few over the limit, though, but there are lots of options for cutting it down that I see right away. You're also missing one or two of the T-M moves. (I know that WoW is disallowed) I recommend the following:

• Add Dream Eater and Psych Up to TMs (T-M move)
• Add the following moves (Because they appear on basically all Pokemon, as seen here): Rain Dance, Facade, Attract, Captivate, Natural Gift
• Remove the following VGMs: Zen Headbutt, Seismic Toss, Counter, Gravity, Pain Split
• Remove the following moves: Icy Wind, Headbutt, Metronome

This puts you at 76/36 by my counts. Now I know that 85/40 is the limit for Rev, but I really think he needs a smaller movepool by his very nature. He should be a predictable Pokemon with an extremely focused nature (Perfect Bulk Up User).

Also, by no means can we re-add Will-O-Wisp to Rev. We cannot overturn the TL decisions/polls for the NAM/AM discussion stages. That is a part of what makes these revisions objective.

Finally, I think the Level-Up movepool should be numbered a bit differently. Try on the following:

- Wrap
- Bide
5. Sand Tomb
9. Imprison
13. Rock Tomb
18. Arm Thrust
22. Mean Look
25. Glare
29. Shadow Punch
34. Revenge
38. Power Whip
46. Hammer Arm
54. Grudge
62. Moonlight

Good job so far, ete! :)

 

[Naxte]

Also, by no means can we re-add Will-O-Wisp to Rev. We cannot overturn the TL decisions/polls for the NAM/AM discussion stages. That is a part of what makes these revisions objective.

I don't understand, though--I thought the point of these revisions were to bring all the CAPs in line with the VGM, T-M, and M-M requirements. If we can ignore these requirements based on decisions made during the original CAP, then what is the point of these revisions in the first place? I mean, under that logic, we shouldn't be able to remove any move that wound up in Revenankh's original movepool, or add anything that wasn't, as it seems that most movepool decisions back then were decided along the same means .

I'm sorry, but I just don't see what's so objective about letting Revenankh get out of a T-M requirement that we've already had on it once and know that it's not broken, just because of a poll back then. It just seems to violate the spirit of these revisions to me to let Revenankh get out of these retroactive revisions based on one of the original polls. And looking over the thread, it seems that most of the posts against WoW fell into one of these three categories:
-No Reasoning at all
-Flavor ("Flaming Mummy")
-Worry over just doing something that Dusknoir does, but better.

The last one kind of fits in with the spirit of CAP2, but either way, Revy would have been Ghost/Fight while Dusknoir was pure Ghost, so there were differences. But really, for the large part, there was no competitive reasoning or anything as to why it shouldn't have gotten WoW; just a poll. And at least to me, that doesn't seem to be enough to let it get out of these new requirements.

If most people do feel differently though or this was the type of thing that was agreed upon in the discussion for these Revisions somewhere though, then I suppose I'll let it go, though.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I don't understand, though--I thought the point of these revisions were to bring all the CAPs in line with the VGM, T-M, and M-M requirements. If we can ignore these requirements based on decisions made during the original CAP, then what is the point of these revisions in the first place? I mean, under that logic, we shouldn't be able to remove any move that wound up in Revenankh's original movepool, or add anything that wasn't, as it seems that most movepool decisions back then were decided along the same means .

In case you weren't aware, we can even ignore those restrictions for our current and future CAPs. The T-M, M-M, and even movepool limits can be broken if the TL of a given CAP, during that CAP process, demands it. The point of these revisions is not to simply say "Hey, let's just force all past CAPs to adhere to all of the restrictions", it's to force all past CAPs to adhere to the restrictions not broken intentionally and willfully by the TL of that CAP during its process. Furthermore, remember that these movepool limits did not exist back then; we have to use cues from the past discussion threads to determine "Would they follow the movepool limits as set, or break them somehow?" For this reason, Fidgit is OK with having more than the allowed total moves and Rev is required to have fewer than the allowed total moves. These revisions are based in as much objectivity as we can possibly manage, while still trying to bring the previous CAPs in line with the new restrictions as if they had been around all along. (And thus deciding what the people of that time would have kept or removed in order to meet the requirements)

I'm sorry, but I just don't see what's so objective about letting Revenankh get out of a T-M requirement that we've already had on it once and know that it's not broken, just because of a poll back then.

Because that is what makes this an objective revision. We cannot contest the past polls and stipulations of the past TLs during their CAP process. It doesn't matter why it was disallowed in the past, only that it was disallowed, and that ties our hands here.

I'm sorry, but I cannot allow Will-O-Wisp onto Revenankh's movepool no matter what evidence or arguments are presented for why it should be there. I don't want to sound mean or harsh or anything here, but this is really just how these revisions are to work by design.

 

[eric the espeon]

Largely updated (not changed levels yet, will work on that tomorrow and tweak it a little), talked to RD about most of his suggestions. I agree entirely with RD's feelings on WoW. It not being broken is irrelevant, it was explicitly rejected by the original process, community, and TL. I do not think it would be right to go against that without vastly stronger arguments than those so far presented.

 

[Mektar]

I problably shouldn't be posting here with my level of experience, but might I suggest Crush Grip and Wring Out as Flavor moves? Revenankh has large hands that could perform either of those moves.

 

[eric the espeon]

Updated, changed a couple of flavor moves (Punishment and Crush Grip over Grudge and Imprison), fixed odd levels, added one more parent to DK's list (Infernape gets Mach Punch and gets Nasty Plot as a pre evo move).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

PS: Crush Grip might make sense from a flavor point of view, but it's Regigigas's signature move. (Especially at level 9?) You should use Wring Out instead, it's the exact same move but, you know, not signature.

 

[eric the espeon]

We can use signature moves, but you're right it probably is best to avoid them.. and Wring Out fits well too, so I'll switch to that.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Yeah, it just seems to me that we should avoid legendary signature moves unless the affects are really critical to the success of a CAP. (ie. Heart Swap Krilowatt is perfect for the concept) If a legendary signature move is VGM, it is disallowed by design unless explicitly allowed by the TL, for example.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, checked it all over. Everything looks good except that you miscounted the egg movepool VGMs (there are 5, not 4). Everything else appears to be in order, though, and even with that miscounting you're still under the 40 limit. Your final movepool is 75/38 with limits of 85/40, so I approve of this. I have attached my final spreadsheet for the movepool.

Great job, ete! :)