Monotype Viability Rankings

Anttya · Sep 17, 2015

Approved by Eevee General
Art by Disbelief

Monotype C&C

BW Viability Rankings
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If a link is dead, then no writeup has been written for that Pokemon. Feel free to reserve it.
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Welcome to the Monotype Viability Rankings. As most of you know, Monotype is completely different from OU in terms of viability. Instead of focusing on a Pokemon's flaws and the amount of roles they can perform, we're mainly focusing on how each Pokemon can fare against other type matchups. Abilities are valued more than normal, so consider them when you rank something. Pokemon are placed in either S, A, B, C, or D rank, with S only having Pokemon that can easily influence the game against a majority of type matchups, while D has Pokemon that are solely used for their moves or abilities.

How to put stuff in your Signature!

Rules:

- Flaming will not be tolerated.
- Post smartly, don't just be like "I liek Gogoat so it should be in S Tier!1!"
- Stay on topic. As much as I would like to see a petition saying that Ho-oh should be unbanned, not here please. :)
- You have 5 days to write the stuff you reserve.

How to rank:

If you want an example just click a Pokemon.

Include the Pokemon you're rating, the type, and what rank you want it to be.
Include at least 1 set. Some Pokemon may have more than one set.
Provide an explanation as to why you put it in that rank and how it fares in Monotype.

Pokemon with 2 typings will need 2 ranks. That's because Pokemon like Lanturn would be more useful on Water Monotypes than Electric Monotypes.

To-do / Reserve List:

Anything that isn't hyperlinked or if it isn't listed.

Monotype Viability Reviewers

These people will have the final say if a decision by the community cannot be reached or a pokemon is completely misplaced. If you have any questions or need help, please PM / VM these people.

Anttya

iVid

Monotype Viability Rankings
(Subject to change, they are in no particular order)

Want sets? Click here :D

Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel

S Rank

Chansey

Porygon2

Staraptor
A Rank

Diggersby

Mega-Lopunny

Mega-Pidgeot

Meloetta
B Rank

Miltank

Ditto

Heliolisk

Porygon-Z

Mega-Audino

Snorlax
C Rank

Smeargle

Exploud
D Rank

Blissey

Cinccino

Furfrou

Kecleon

Pyroar

Slaking

S Rank

Keldeo

Mega-Gallade

Mega-Medicham

Terrakion
A Rank

Breloom

Cobalion

Infernape

Heracross
B Rank

Conkeldurr

Lucario

Hawlucha
C Rank

Scrafty

Chesnaught

Heracross-Mega

Pangoro
D Rank

Hitmontop

Mienshao

Toxicroak

Machamp

Virizion

S Rank

Landorus-I

Mega-Gyarados

Skarmory

Zapdos
A Rank

Mega-Charizard Y

Dragonite

Landorus-T

Thundurus

Thundurus-T

Togekiss

Tornadus-T
B Rank

Mandibuzz

Gyarados

Aerodactyl
C Rank

Articuno

Hawlucha

Honchkrow

Mega-Pidgeot

Salamence

Staraptor

Aerodactyl-Mega
D Rank

Sigilyph

Xatu

S Rank

Mega-Venusaur

Scolipede

Gengar
A Rank

Drapion

Nidoking

Nidoqueen

Skuntank

Crobat
B Rank

Golbat

Tentacruel
C Rank

Roserade
D Rank

Qwilfish

S Rank
Excadrill
Hippowdon

Landorus-I
A Rank

Seismitoad

Garchomp
B Rank

Gliscor

Landorus-T

Krookodile
C Rank

Mega-Steelix

Quagsire

Diggersby

Nidoking
D Rank

Nidoqueen

Dugtrio

Rhyperior

Mega-Swampert

Golem

S Rank

Mega-Aggron

Mega-Diancie

Terrakion

Tyranitar
A Rank
Cradily

Omastar

Shuckle
B Rank

Rhyperior

Areodactyl-Mega

Tyrantrum

Diancie
C Rank

Tyranitar-Mega

Aerodactyl
D Rank

Archeops

Aurorus

Golem

Armaldo

Kabutops

Crustle

S Rank

Armaldo

Mega-Pinsir

Volcarona

Scizor
A Rank

Forretress

Galvantula

Heracross

Mega-Heracross

Mega-Scizor

Shuckle
B Rank

Yanmega

Scolipede

Vivillon
C Rank

Mega-Beedrill
D Rank

Volbeat

Accelgor

Crustle

S Rank

Mega-Sableye

Gengar
A Rank

Chandelure

Golurk

Jellicent
B Rank

Gourgiest-Super

Hoopa

Doublade
C Rank

Spiritomb

Trevenant

Shedinja

Rotom
D Rank

Cofagrigus

Mega-Banette

Misdreavus

S Rank

Heatran

Skarmory

Mega-Scizor
A Rank

Bisharp

Doublade

Excadrill

Ferrothorn

Magnezone
B Rank

Jirachi

Empoleon

Klefki

Durant
C Rank

Lucario

Cobalion

Scizor

Bronzong
D Rank

Forretress

Magneton

Mega-Steelix

Metagross

Registeel

Anttya · Sep 17, 2015

Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Fairy

S Rank

Mega-Charizard Y
A Rank

Darmanitan

Entei

Heatran

Infernape

Rotom-H

Torkoal

Victini

Volcarona
B Rank

Chandelure

Fletchinder

Volcanion
C Rank

Arcanine

Mega-Houndoom

Ninetales
D Rank

Camerupt-Mega

S Rank

Azumarill

Keldeo

Manaphy
A Rank

Alomomola

Cloyster

Empoleon

Lanturn

Mega-Gyarados

Mega-Sharpedo

Starmie

Swampert

Gyarados

Volcanian
B Rank

Politoed

Feraligatr

Suicune

Tentacruel

Mega-Swampert

Quagsire

Kingdra

Slowbro

Kabutops
C Rank

Sharpedo

Crawdaunt

Ludicolo
D Rank

Jellicent

Mega-Blastoise

Vaporeon

Mantine

Seismitoad

Gastrodon

S Rank

Ferrothorn

Mega-Venusaur
A Rank
Breloom

Cradily

Serperior

Whimsicott
B Rank

Rotom-M

Celebi
C Rank

Ludicolo

Roserade

Mega-Sceptile

Shiftry

D Rank

Levanny

Abomasnow

Tangrowth

Chesnaught

S Rank

Zapdos
A Rank

Raikou
B Rank

Luxray
C Rank

Thundurus-T
D Rank

Galvantula

Stunfisk

Jolteon

Magneton

Heliolisk

S Rank

Hoopa-Unbound

Mega-Gardevoir

Mew

Slowbro

Victini
A Rank

Gardevoir

Latios

Mega-Medicham

Meloetta

Mega-Gallade
B Rank

Azelf

Deoxys-S

Mega-Alakazam

Alakazam

Mega-Latias

Latias

Starmie

Jirachi

Gothitelle
C Rank

Uxie

Cresselia

Celebi

Deoxys-D

Metagross

Gallade
D Rank

Sigilyph

Reuniclus

Bronzong

Wobbuffet

Espeon

Malamar

Delphox

S Rank

Mamoswine
A Rank

Cloyster
B Rank

Articuno

Froslass

Lapras

Walrein

Mega-Abomasnow
C Rank

Mega-Glalie

Cryogonal
D Rank

Jynx

Regice

Aurorus

S Rank

Garchomp

Kyurem-B

Latios

Dragonite
A Rank

Hydreigon

Mega-Latias

Latias
B Rank

Dragalge

Mega-Garchomp
C Rank

Goodra

Zygarde

Salamence

Tyrantrum

Haxorus
D Rank

Kingdra

Druddigon

Noivern

S Rank

Hoopa-Unbound
A Rank

Hydreigon

Crawdaunt

Mega-Sharpedo

Weavile
B Rank

Krookidile

Sableye

Mega-Houndoom
C Rank

Honchkrow

Sharpedo

Umbreon

Mega-Absol

Zoroark

Cacturne
D Rank

Drapion

Spiritomb

Scrafty

S Rank

Azumarill

Clefable

Klefiki

Mega-Diancie
A Rank

Togekiss

Gardevoir

Mega-Gardevoir
B Rank

Whimsicott

Sylveon

Slurpuff
C Rank

Florges

Diancie
D Rank

Granbull

Aromatisse

Carbink

Anttya · Sep 17, 2015

From last thread, praise Eevee General for unlocking the old thread so I could snag this

Lando T (Flying): Intimidate, great bulk, great offensive and defensive typing. That should stay S ranked.

A huge problem with the viability rankings is that there was too many S ranked mons. Some types like Psychic might have more than 3 but Sae and I had to move down anything that wasn't metadefining. Lando's amazing, but it certainly isn't on par with Zapdos, and Skarmory.

Scolipede (Bug): I have little clue why that was opted for S rank tbh. It's a nice mon, but it doesn't benefit a ton besides good speed. It's by no means a Genesect repalcement, A rank is fine for that.

It is A ranked on Bug (Ignore the piratepad, people have messed w/ it)

Mega Gardevoir: Great wallbreaker, covers the dark weakness very nicely, and in some ways is just as good or better than gallade. That should remain S rank.

Once again, this raises the question "Is this metagame defining?" It's a deadly wallbreaker,

Omastar (Rock): It's nice for sweeping ground, but, it's often unreliable due to sash and no reliable hazards control on rock. B rank suits it best I feel.

If more people agree to this then I'll move it

Hoopa-U (Dark): Why this was dropped I have no clue. Dark's best way of covering fighting, and another great sweeper against fairy. S Rank imo.

Umm @Freeroam

Mega Audino (Normal): As mentioned earlier, it is used less than the other 2 megas, but I feel it's still really great for stally teams, it has amazing defenses, and the part fairy typing is nice for fighting teams. It can still be A rank. (This 1 on the list is probably one of the more debatable ones)

Yeah it was talked about for a while. We finally decided on B Rank because Staraptor does the job almost as well, but it doesn't take a Mega slot. Melo does it pretty well, and it can handle Keld but it lacks recovery. It is also not on par w/ Lopunny and Pidgeot

Shuckle (Bug): Great for when you want hazards on 1 mon. Also has astounding defenses and a decent support movepull to go along with it (ex Knock Off, Encore, Toxic). A rank is good for it.

This was one of those things where I think that other hazard setters outclass Shuckle. Outside of having both Sticky Web and Rocks, it's outlcassed. Armaldo has Rapid Spin, Forre's good, Galv has offensive pressures etc. However, I can see why it'd be A Rank. Moving it back up.

Ambipom (Normal): Why was that ranked up lol? I don't see it as very good at all aside from its good speed stat. It's a gimmick if anything tbh. D rank.

I changed it from C Rank to unranked

Yanmega (Bug): With the loss of genesect, Yanmega makes a decent special sweeper thanks to speed boost. B rank.

If more people agree to this I'll move it up

Gourgeist (Ghost: It's a great defensive wall, and leech seed is a nice niche on ghost. Makes a great core with Jellicent as well. I think that should be bumped up to B rank.

Outside of Leech Seed it is outclassed by Mega Sab who has Magic Bounce, better recovery, and is "immune" to Knock Off.

Fletchinder (Fire): Ik this was C Rank b4, but it helps with a lot of neutral matchups, including dragon, and after 1 sd, it can basiclaly sweep. I wouldn't mind seeing this B ranked.

I'll move it up

Jirachi (Psychic): Idk why this was dropped to C. At least put it at B lol.

It was dropped to C because it is outclassed by Garde as a Scarf Healing Wisher (Garde beats Darks) If more people agree, I'll move it back up.

Mega Abomasnow (Ice): As it's typing isn't beneficial, I can assure you it is not on the same level as Mega Glalie. Helps a lot against water match ups, and its a nice bulky mon. Put it back at B.

Kk I'll move it back up

Tyrantrum (Dragon): With the loss of Mega Altaria, there's been a need for a new sweeper, and a lot of people including myself have opted for Dragonite. Tyrantrum is still an amazing wallbreaker nonetheless. I think it should be B ranked again tbh.

Idk about this one, mostly because people use Kyu / Band Nite to wallbreak, and they threaten w/e Tyrantrum threatens, but more.

Goodra (Dragon): Another sketchy move. It provides great coverage, and not to mention its an astounding defensive tank, with some compeition from Dragalge. They should be on the same level tbh, B rank.

What really hurts Goodra is that it doesn't have Recovery and it doesn't force switches as much as Drag. Drag can also provide support w/ Scald and Toxic Spikes. Idk about this one.

Mega Absol (Dark): Another 1 I'm debatable on. Definatley not Dark's best mega, but, it's on the same level as houndoom in terms of viability. B rank.

Kk moving it up

Cofagrigus (Ghost): This was another left unchanged, but I thought now would be the chance to say something. It's a nice defensive wall, and has a really nice ability to neutralize abilities on contact. Also, trick room is rly nice on ghost teams, since a lot of the mons bar Gengar and Chandelure are fairly slow. I wouldn't mind seeing this as C rank.

K I'll move it up (I got swept one of these :( )

Salamence: Overrated? Yes. Bad? Not at all, still a great sweeper even though it was so last gen. C/B rank.

It is outclassed by Dragonite, and the only reason why it was B rank was because it acted as a Defogger w/ Intimidate. At most, it'd be D because it's bad vs a majority of skilled players.

Granbull: Final 1. This was another mon that was left unchanged, but I wanna say something. As it does have low speed, 1, intimidate is a rly nice niche. 2, it can wreck steel pretty well with a mix of Close Combat and Fire Punch, and 3, overall, it's a nice physical wallbreaker. In a way it is outclassed by Azumarill, but by no means is it that bad. I can tell you it is not worse than running Florges. Plus, trick room fairy op :x. C Rank.

Fair enough, I'll move it up

These are my thoughts of the changes, I scrolled through and just made comments on what I didn't agree on. Lemmie know what yall think.

EDIT: Forgot a couple sorry.

Victini (Psychic): Psychic's best way of dealing with bug, and its on almost every team. It's got a ton of options for sets to run, and its overall a powerhouse. Needs to stay S ranked.

This was a hard decision, after tons of debate, Sae, and I decided on A because it was arguably less important than Bro and Mew, and offensively, Gallade / Hoopa "outclasses."

Klefki (Steel): While it does provide screens, its a nice fighting neutral, and priority twave, I don't see it being A rank on steel, especially since it has no reliable recovery. Great utility otherwise. I'm gonna vouch for B rank for that.

Another debatable thing, I can see your reasoning for B. If more people agree I'll move it up

Luxray (Electric): I get it, it's great, but this 1's very debatable whether it's A or B rank for sure. It is 1 of electric's few viable physical attackers, and it's a powerhouse, but it doesn't have a lot of speed, which is my main concern. B/A (idk about that 1).

Also debatable, but Sae and I decided on A because it is just as good as Eel, which is in A.

Mega Medicham (Fighting): Mega Altaria is gone, but it's still an amazing wallbreaker. The immediate power compared to needing to boost Gallade first is nice. Should stay S rank.

We had to lower the amount of S ranked mons, and this didn't quite make it. Mostly because of its inability to break Psychic (namely Bro), and it's pretty "slow" for a Fighting team.

Tyranitar (Dark): This 1 has me scratching my head a little bit, bc this is another very debatable one. It's an astounding special defensive tank, and it is one of Dark's best SR setters, it doesn't help with fighting very much. S/A (tbh leaning more towards A, but again not sure).

T-tar's amazing, trust me. It actually can help somewhat vs Fighting by t-waving switch ins, living scalds, breaking sashes w/ sand etc.

Mandibuzz (Flying): As Vid mentioned, with Zapdos back, I don't see much of a reason to keep this at A rank since it's pretty much outclassed, besides foul play. B rank.

It's in B Rank

Empoleon (Water/Steel): In Steel's case, same situation. I wanna see how this would be at A rank, due to fire neutrality, something that can hit/sweep ground, and is just a nice special attacker. As for Water, it is amazing hazards control, setting sr, and removing all hazards, its rly cool. It's also a nice grass neutrality, and roar is handy. My main problem is it's lack of recovery, hence why iI'm questioning "is it really S rank?" Idk, that's pretty borderline for me tbh. S/A rank.[/quote]
replies in the thingy

People use Emp as a Lando-I check, and it's pretty bulky with an AV on. There's always Alo if you want recovery, and the only reason it'd move down is because of Zapdos.

Dece1t · Sep 17, 2015

Anttya said:
From last thread, praise Eevee General for unlocking the old thread so I could snag this

Lando T (Flying): Intimidate, great bulk, great offensive and defensive typing. That should stay S ranked.

A huge problem with the viability rankings is that there was too many S ranked mons. Some types like Psychic might have more than 3 but Sae and I had to move down anything that wasn't metadefining. Lando's amazing, but it certainly isn't on par with Zapdos, and Skarmory.

Scolipede (Bug): I have little clue why that was opted for S rank tbh. It's a nice mon, but it doesn't benefit a ton besides good speed. It's by no means a Genesect repalcement, A rank is fine for that.

It is A ranked on Bug (Ignore the piratepad, people have messed w/ it)

Mega Gardevoir: Great wallbreaker, covers the dark weakness very nicely, and in some ways is just as good or better than gallade. That should remain S rank.

Once again, this raises the question "Is this metagame defining?" It's a deadly wallbreaker,

Omastar (Rock): It's nice for sweeping ground, but, it's often unreliable due to sash and no reliable hazards control on rock. B rank suits it best I feel.

If more people agree to this then I'll move it

Hoopa-U (Dark): Why this was dropped I have no clue. Dark's best way of covering fighting, and another great sweeper against fairy. S Rank imo.

Umm @Freeroam

Mega Audino (Normal): As mentioned earlier, it is used less than the other 2 megas, but I feel it's still really great for stally teams, it has amazing defenses, and the part fairy typing is nice for fighting teams. It can still be A rank. (This 1 on the list is probably one of the more debatable ones)

Yeah it was talked about for a while. We finally decided on B Rank because Staraptor does the job almost as well, but it doesn't take a Mega slot. Melo does it pretty well, and it can handle Keld but it lacks recovery. It is also not on par w/ Lopunny and Pidgeot

Shuckle (Bug): Great for when you want hazards on 1 mon. Also has astounding defenses and a decent support movepull to go along with it (ex Knock Off, Encore, Toxic). A rank is good for it.

This was one of those things where I think that other hazard setters outclass Shuckle. Outside of having both Sticky Web and Rocks, it's outlcassed. Armaldo has Rapid Spin, Forre's good, Galv has offensive pressures etc. However, I can see why it'd be A Rank. Moving it back up.

Ambipom (Normal): Why was that ranked up lol? I don't see it as very good at all aside from its good speed stat. It's a gimmick if anything tbh. D rank.

I changed it from C Rank to unranked

Yanmega (Bug): With the loss of genesect, Yanmega makes a decent special sweeper thanks to speed boost. B rank.

If more people agree to this I'll move it up

Gourgeist (Ghost: It's a great defensive wall, and leech seed is a nice niche on ghost. Makes a great core with Jellicent as well. I think that should be bumped up to B rank.

Outside of Leech Seed it is outclassed by Mega Sab who has Magic Bounce, better recovery, and is "immune" to Knock Off.

Fletchinder (Fire): Ik this was C Rank b4, but it helps with a lot of neutral matchups, including dragon, and after 1 sd, it can basiclaly sweep. I wouldn't mind seeing this B ranked.

I'll move it up

Jirachi (Psychic): Idk why this was dropped to C. At least put it at B lol.

It was dropped to C because it is outclassed by Garde as a Scarf Healing Wisher (Garde beats Darks) If more people agree, I'll move it back up.

Mega Abomasnow (Ice): As it's typing isn't beneficial, I can assure you it is not on the same level as Mega Glalie. Helps a lot against water match ups, and its a nice bulky mon. Put it back at B.

Kk I'll move it back up

Tyrantrum (Dragon): With the loss of Mega Altaria, there's been a need for a new sweeper, and a lot of people including myself have opted for Dragonite. Tyrantrum is still an amazing wallbreaker nonetheless. I think it should be B ranked again tbh.

Idk about this one, mostly because people use Kyu / Band Nite to wallbreak, and they threaten w/e Tyrantrum threatens, but more.

Goodra (Dragon): Another sketchy move. It provides great coverage, and not to mention its an astounding defensive tank, with some compeition from Dragalge. They should be on the same level tbh, B rank.

What really hurts Goodra is that it doesn't have Recovery and it doesn't force switches as much as Drag. Drag can also provide support w/ Scald and Toxic Spikes. Idk about this one.

Mega Absol (Dark): Another 1 I'm debatable on. Definatley not Dark's best mega, but, it's on the same level as houndoom in terms of viability. B rank.

Kk moving it up

Cofagrigus (Ghost): This was another left unchanged, but I thought now would be the chance to say something. It's a nice defensive wall, and has a really nice ability to neutralize abilities on contact. Also, trick room is rly nice on ghost teams, since a lot of the mons bar Gengar and Chandelure are fairly slow. I wouldn't mind seeing this as C rank.

K I'll move it up (I got swept one of these :( )

Salamence: Overrated? Yes. Bad? Not at all, still a great sweeper even though it was so last gen. C/B rank.

It is outclassed by Dragonite, and the only reason why it was B rank was because it acted as a Defogger w/ Intimidate. At most, it'd be D because it's bad vs a majority of skilled players.

Granbull: Final 1. This was another mon that was left unchanged, but I wanna say something. As it does have low speed, 1, intimidate is a rly nice niche. 2, it can wreck steel pretty well with a mix of Close Combat and Fire Punch, and 3, overall, it's a nice physical wallbreaker. In a way it is outclassed by Azumarill, but by no means is it that bad. I can tell you it is not worse than running Florges. Plus, trick room fairy op :x. C Rank.

Fair enough, I'll move it up

These are my thoughts of the changes, I scrolled through and just made comments on what I didn't agree on. Lemmie know what yall think.

EDIT: Forgot a couple sorry.

Victini (Psychic): Psychic's best way of dealing with bug, and its on almost every team. It's got a ton of options for sets to run, and its overall a powerhouse. Needs to stay S ranked.

This was a hard decision, after tons of debate, Sae, and I decided on A because it was arguably less important than Bro and Mew, and offensively, Gallade / Hoopa "outclasses."

Klefki (Steel): While it does provide screens, its a nice fighting neutral, and priority twave, I don't see it being A rank on steel, especially since it has no reliable recovery. Great utility otherwise. I'm gonna vouch for B rank for that.

Another debatable thing, I can see your reasoning for B. If more people agree I'll move it up

Luxray (Electric): I get it, it's great, but this 1's very debatable whether it's A or B rank for sure. It is 1 of electric's few viable physical attackers, and it's a powerhouse, but it doesn't have a lot of speed, which is my main concern. B/A (idk about that 1).

Also debatable, but Sae and I decided on A because it is just as good as Eel, which is in A.

Mega Medicham (Fighting): Mega Altaria is gone, but it's still an amazing wallbreaker. The immediate power compared to needing to boost Gallade first is nice. Should stay S rank.

We had to lower the amount of S ranked mons, and this didn't quite make it. Mostly because of its inability to break Psychic (namely Bro), and it's pretty "slow" for a Fighting team.

Tyranitar (Dark): This 1 has me scratching my head a little bit, bc this is another very debatable one. It's an astounding special defensive tank, and it is one of Dark's best SR setters, it doesn't help with fighting very much. S/A (tbh leaning more towards A, but again not sure).

T-tar's amazing, trust me. It actually can help somewhat vs Fighting by t-waving switch ins, living scalds, breaking sashes w/ sand etc.

Mandibuzz (Flying): As Vid mentioned, with Zapdos back, I don't see much of a reason to keep this at A rank since it's pretty much outclassed, besides foul play. B rank.

It's in B Rank

Empoleon (Water/Steel): In Steel's case, same situation. I wanna see how this would be at A rank, due to fire neutrality, something that can hit/sweep ground, and is just a nice special attacker. As for Water, it is amazing hazards control, setting sr, and removing all hazards, its rly cool. It's also a nice grass neutrality, and roar is handy. My main problem is it's lack of recovery, hence why iI'm questioning "is it really S rank?" Idk, that's pretty borderline for me tbh. S/A rank.

Thnx ant :)! I still don't know about tini as a rank tho, most bc of its sheer usage and versatility. And hoopa u, idk just move it up, it's op and can sweep fighting once any scarfer bade 80 and up are out /twave (mandi does a great job). Those are the only 2 I'd reconsider, bit thnx for clearing some of them up, looking back a couple I don't thinkk I needed to defend, like medi and goodra.

Arash · Sep 19, 2015

After playing poison exclusively for the past month or so, I would suggest these changes to the viability rankings (all for poison btw):

Nidoking S-rank -> A-rank

Nidoking may be a good wallbreaker, but it's crummy speed tier (for an attacker) and poor bulk with meh defensive typing mean that it can't handle priority or too many neutral hits. In addition, Nidoqueen is the defensive counterpart and frankly is as good at defending as Nidoking is at attacking. IMO they should be at the same rank (Nidoqueen is often preferred on a more defensive team build).

Ariados D-rank -> unlisted

Let's be honest; when have you ever seen an Ariados? Literally its only niche is sticky webz, which is only useful for HO poison (lol). Its frailty and crap defensive typing only gives it one chance to lay webs, which means that having a sturdy defogger / spinner is enough to counter Ariados. The possibility of using sticky webs does not warrant wasting a valuable teamslot on Ariados (and on poison, every team slot is so important for a good team)

Gengar A-rank -> S-rank

I typed up a mini essay in the old VR thread I don't feel like looking for, so I'll make this quick:

- Gengar has pretty good defensive typing for poison; while it's fairly frail it has 3 immunities (one to ground, which is so useful to poison) and immunities to fake out / espeed / mach punch mean that it doesn't fear priority as much. It also doesn't share ghost or dark weaknesses with any other poison pokemon, and helps scare away psychics with its speedy and powerful shadow ball.

- Its versatility means it can be tailored to fit on any team, and its movepool allows it to essentially choose what checks it. While not quite as versatile as Mew, it can run sets to beat whatever pokemon annoys the rest of your team, and can also run Destiny Bond for lulz.

Dece1t · Sep 19, 2015

Arash said:
After playing poison exclusively for the past month or so, I would suggest these changes to the viability rankings (all for poison btw):

Nidoking S-rank -> A-rank

Nidoking may be a good wallbreaker, but it's crummy speed tier (for an attacker) and poor bulk with meh defensive typing mean that it can't handle priority or too many neutral hits. In addition, Nidoqueen is the defensive counterpart and frankly is as good at defending as Nidoking is at attacking. IMO they should be at the same rank (Nidoqueen is often preferred on a more defensive team build).

Ariados D-rank -> unlisted

Let's be honest; when have you ever seen an Ariados? Literally its only niche is sticky webz, which is only useful for HO poison (lol). Its frailty and crap defensive typing only gives it one chance to lay webs, which means that having a sturdy defogger / spinner is enough to counter Ariados. The possibility of using sticky webs does not warrant wasting a valuable teamslot on Ariados (and on poison, every team slot is so important for a good team)

Gengar A-rank -> S-rank

I typed up a mini essay in the old VR thread I don't feel like looking for, so I'll make this quick:

- Gengar has pretty good defensive typing for poison; while it's fairly frail it has 3 immunities (one to ground, which is so useful to poison) and immunities to fake out / espeed / mach punch mean that it doesn't fear priority

Nidoking: Idk about that 1. It provides so much coverage to poison teams, and not to mention the part ground typing is pretty helpful offensively. I personally feel like that's S rank, especially if you look at the usage stats and how many people have it.

Ariados: I see your point, but it's a decent niche. For supporting slower mons like Nidoking or Dragalge, hey sticky webs may not be a bad idea. I think that can stay D rank.

Gengar: After seeing what everyone said about Gengar, I can change my opinion about that. I agree that should be S rank.

Arash · Sep 19, 2015

Stunfisk The Great said:
Nidoking: Idk about that 1. It provides so much coverage to poison teams, and not to mention the part ground typing is pretty helpful offensively. I personally feel like that's S rank, especially if you look at the usage stats and how many people have it.

Ariados: I see your point, but it's a decent niche. For supporting slower mons like Nidoking or Dragalge, hey sticky webs may not be a bad idea. I think that can stay D rank.

Dragalge has base 44 speed, and it would take 252+ speed with webs to outspeed adamant garchomp by a few points. Sticky webs would greatly benefit Nidoking and Gengar, but I'd rather run scarf on these pokemon if it means I get to use my Ariados moveslot on something like Tentacruel / Nidoqueen / another A-rank poisonmon

Nidoking, while certainly a fine choice for any poison team, is virtually guaranteed to be max sp. atk / max+ speed special attacker with 4 sheer force moves. (Earth Power / Flamethrower can be counted on, with the other 2 being a mix of poison/electric/ice or possible rock slide / superpower with minimal attack investment). However, its base 85 special attacking stat, even when boosted with sheer force, isn't terribly overpowering (for comparison, Nidoking's effective sp. attack stat is 350 factoring in timid / sheer force, compared to Gengar's 359). Nidoking's speed, however, leaves a lot to be desired; if it had lando-I's speed, I would definitely advocate an S-rank. However, it either needs to run a scarf to mitigate this (which cuts into its power even more) or resign itself to losing against most anything faster than it.

So while Nidoking is a great mon to have on your side, it isn't really in the same class as Mega-Venusaur (who lets you essentially auto-win vs water and a few other types if played right), Gengar (see earlier post) or even Scolipede (who gets speed boost and is the best physical attacker overall available to poison)

Sae · Sep 23, 2015

scpinion you do realize you just tagged a bot right?...Not that I mind you calling Ant one but yeah my user is Sae Sae not Sae.

Hmm so we're discussing Gengar vs Nidoking? Well I don't really mind if they swap but I'll just list out some arguments to mull over. (Ariados idc if it stays or drops we didn't really care to clean up the lower ranks since they're irrelevant anyway). Gengar has the nice Levitate ability and really good SpA and Speed to act as a really nice revenge killer especially since it can stop stuff like Dragonite and fighting users from revenging it. Nidoking, on the other hand, has access to SR (I guess TS as well...) and the ability to break the Flying core. The last point is kind of important since Flying is the dominant type in the meta with a 12.78% usage. (To defend Scolipede's S-rank, it's utility to be a hazard lead, LO/Band, and overall usefulness against bad matchups like Psychic and Fire is pretty nifty.)

Anyway since most people really should know this I'll just lay out the types and let's see how this goes:

Flying
- Gengar again can put in some work against the sweepers, it's immune to Espeed from Dragonite so if you're Sashed or Scarf you can still revenge from here. Other than that Mandibuzz & Zapdos makes it kind of annoying to beat. Most common items were Scarf, Black Sludge, and Sash so I'm pretty sure most teams aren't going to be using LO+Thunderbolt (then again meta shift but the standard Shadow Ball, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, and HP Ice are still probably going to be trending). It does have the ability to beat Landorus-I with HP Ice which outright beats Poison, but it's kind of hard to do so against the defensive core.
- Nidoking with access to Ice Beam breaks through most Flying cores already, but it can supplement it with Thunderbolt if it's really thought necessary to beat some other trickier mons.
Psychic
- Gengar obviously can put in work. Scarf lets you revenge stuff, Sub+Wisp can put you in good positions, etc. This is really nice since
- Nidoking can't really do much except hit the slower mons and revenge kill after lots of chip damage.
- (Tbf though as Anttya says, you could just straight up sweep with a LO/Band Scolipede without having to worry about Meloetta walling your Gengar)
- (Another note, most Poison teams should be carrying a Drapion also to Pursuit trap important mons so the matchup honestly could just be Drapion + Scolipede. Gengar will just make the work be faster.)
Steel
- Gengar can do decent work here. Focus Blast lets it revenge kill some things and Sub+Wisp can be annoying as hell to all things not Heatran. Annoying thing here is that Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill can Equake you and the rest of the team (including Nido) but can be played around with Mega Venu or Crobat if you go that method.
- Nidoking kind of straight up destroys the Steel core. Earth Power and Flamethrower pretty much take care of everything. Really nifty cause Steel is immune to Poison so you can't just wear down these cores with Toxic Spikes.
Bug
- Gengar's Levitate I think is more prominent here as it can bypass the Sticky Web and still put in damage. It's also a Spin Blocker to prevent Forretress or Armaldo spinning away SR/TS so in this case Nido+Gengar complement each other. Taunt Gengar I guess could prevent Volcarona from getting QD up but I'm pretty sure 1v1 you don't really want to try that as Gengar is pretty frail.
- Nidoking can use SR to pressure the team, and it has access to wide variety of coverage which does include Flamethrower.
- Beyond that, they both don't deal with the issue of a Mega Pinsir sweep which is left to Weezing hopefully.
Water
- Gengar does alright against Water. It technically has Energy Ball+Thunderbolt coverage which is kind of unlikely (but hey this is Monotype so coverage is coverage). It doesn't do a lot in the matchup, but it doesn't do little. Basically it'll hold its own and give the opportunities for Mega Venusaur to do its thing. Note if you run LO+Focus Blast you have a high chance of sending Empoleon into Torrent range and while a Scald still won't kill you're taking 68.7 - 81.4% with the chance of Empoleon burning you without getting the satisfaction of the kill. At best you trade, at worst LO+burn just killed you.
- Nidoking can do enough damage to bulkier mons that are slower than it and also pressures the opponent if you can get it on a Lanturn. Empoleon can't really tank these Special hits from Nidoking so it's basically a free move if you get it in. Tentacruel (Water) can sponge hits from Gengar, but Nidoking proves to be problematic forcing it to switch so basically free damage there since they need Tentacruel as the backup strat to dealing with Mega Venu.
- Again the matchup is honestly just Mega Venusaur vs Water. Drapion will cover up the hits from Starmie so Starmie probably won't switch-in that much. Manaphy with Psychic might be annoying if it sets up, but Poison has ways to pressure it to not give the outright sweep.
Fighting
- Gengar is immune to most forms of priority here, outruns the infamous base 108 Spe users and can overall put in a lot of work. Not much more needs to be said since the immunity + 110 Spe means a lot.
- Nidoking provides to be pretty useful in the lead situation. If you're against Cobalion, even if you get Taunted you just Earth Power kill it. If you don't you get free SR to break other sashes that might be on the team (although Mega Venu kind of walls Breloom anyway but w/e). Against Infernape, getting that damage to put an Endeavor Ape into Sash range will be really useful as then you can pivot to Gengar directly to block Endeavor or save Gengar as it'll be immune to the Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch later.
- Poison should do well in this matchup, just don't let a Sub+SD Hawlucha or something somehow sweep you.
Dark
- Gengar can do a little bit I guess. The stray Focus Blast connecting is always nice, getting a Taunt or Wisp can be good, but it pretty much faces the problem of Mega Sableye. Also between all the stray Knock Offs, Sucker Punch, and Sandstorm damage potentially breaking a sash, honestly the best way to use it is to Destiny Bond and remove a core part of the Dark core.
- Nidoking can put a little bit more work depending whether or not the other side has an Umbreon. It technically can dent Ttar, beat Bisharp, dent Mandibuzz; but again it all really comes down to if there's an Umbreon.
- Other mons on the team are going to have to be responsible for this matchup most likely. The Dark core though is just really strong.
Dragon
- Gengar is immune to Espeed revenging Gengarr, it can speed tie the Lati twins, and can put damage on the entire team. Not bad at all.
- Nidoking is a weird case. It most likely won't put in much work except maybe laying down SR since most of the team outruns it. However, if you find out the Dragon user is using something slow like TankChomp or maybe sends in Dragonite after taking earlier damage then the Dragon user has to let something take a really big hit...unless Goodra but eh damage is damage.
Ground
- Well Gengar puts in work being immune to Equake. Wisp can shut down most of the Ground team, and since Exca isn't Mold Breaker, Gengar doesn't fear as much and can just pivot to Weezing to take some hits. Also very big swing factor for Gengar is being able to outrun Landorus-I and use HP Ice on it since Landorus kind of beats Poison by itself.
- Nidoking while being weak to Ground hits does alright here too. It can 2HKO or OHKO the entire opposing team except the Water/Ground mons. It's slower than Jolly Exca w/o Sand but faster than Adamant Exca and faster than Jolly Mamo (although Ice Shard). Nido is just in this really weird position in this matchup.
- Honestly, Gravity Ground sucks to play against, Lando-I can shit on you and there's a reason this matchup is usually one-sided. Is it doable? Yes, but this is really difficult.
Normal
- Gengar can beat Chansey if it has Taunt, Sub, or Trick. Actually Trick Gengar is probably your best bet here as it can just remove Eviolites and randomly cripple things by trading items all over the place and it messes with the other parts of the fat cores like Pory2 (Sub isn't going to be the most reliable thing here since if it's a Foul Play + Ice Beam it can still break the Sub most likely before you can wear it down). Focus Blast dents Diggersby and you're immune to revenge Quick Attack and immune to its other two dual STABs.
- Nidoking doesn't really get a chance to do much unless you break the core somehow. SR is always nice to have. Honestly, I don't see it doing much here unless you're the new meta Superpower Nidoking for Monotype.
Fairy
- They both put in work do I need to say more?
Fire
- Gengar can revenge kill MegaY and a lot of the non-Scarf users. If you are Scarf you can revenge the Scarf users, but just be wary not to let yourself be setup on by a Volcarona. Other than that Focus Blast does nicely to break Heatran balloons and whatnot.
- Nidoking can setup SR on Torkoal which is nice meaning you have free SR against the rest of the team. If it chooses to only Rapid Spin then it's a free kill.
  - 0 SpA Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 144-170 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
- Overall, Fire is considered a bad matchup for Poison but that's usually the case with the more defensive teams since they all break after Drought boosts, Victini with Psychic-type coverage, etc. Offensive/Balanced can actually do decently as they could just opt for LO/Banded Scolipede as Anttya would say.
(Skip Poison)
Ghost
- Gengar can revenge kill most things on the team. Just be wary of Shadow Sneak honestly. Not much more needs to be said other than that.
- Nidoking can getup SR which is basically impossible to remove unless they have Drifblim rofl. Other than that it can break Aegislash, kind of gets walled by Jellicent, and can threaten out the rest of the other defensive mons not named Mega Sableye (Ice Beam revenges Golurk, hits Trevenant/Gourgeist, Earth Power beats Chandelure, etc).
- Also note that if you can lay down TS you can wear down the Mega Sableye. Honestly I like Tentacruel for this match since it pressures out Mega Sables with Acid Spray and can get free TS for that reason.
Electric
- Gengar can do its standard thing of getting revenge kills. Pretty standard fare for Gengar. Focus Blast hits Magnezone, Shadow Ball hits most things, etc.
- Nidoking is immune to Electric STAB providing a better pivot in this match. It can get up SR fairly easily, it also walls out the Discharge/Toxic/Roost/Defog Zapdos even though I'd have thought they'd run Heat Wave somewhere on there (meaning it wouldn't have Toxic). While Roost + Pressure can PP stall you, Zapdos can't reliably switch in for fear of a predict and getting hit by an Ice Beam meaning it gets 2HKO'd.
- Honestly this matchup is mostly in Poison's hands...except if there is a Raikou. My personal favorite team so far for Lower Tier Monotype has been Electric precisely because it has the tools to beat all the types beneath Normal (yay Electric doesn't get walled by Chansey in this meta!) Basically don't get swept by SubCM Extrasensory Raikou. Raikou can usually setup on Mega Venu if they don't have Equake, it sets up on Tentacruel, and a couple of other mons. Also it's fast so it outruns Gengar, Nido, and the rest of the squad besides maybe a Crobat.
  - 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 134-160 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  - 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 250-296 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    - Nidoking can basically pressure Raikou into not going for the sweep. Raikou can freely go for a +1 on Gengar as it will just KO Gengar next turn thus getting two lefties turns. But if your Mega Venusaur is weakened it could be a straight up sweep either way.
- Even Scolipede might not be enough to beat Raikou since it can sub as you get the speed boost and then kill you with Extransensory if it already has a boost or you're already weakened. Even more so if Scolipede is a LO attacker meaning it can Sub stall it a bit to put it in range.
- (So yeah that's just thoughts if they have Raikou, not entirely relevant for standard meta, but Poison is a LTM type so I'm going to leave that there since I'm kind of responsible for that meta anyway.)
Grass
- They both put in work. Moving on.
Ice
- Gengar does its usual thing of revenge killing. Focus Blast breaks Ice teams apart and Shadow Ball can finish. Standard Gengar stuff.
- Nidoking can put a little bit of work, just not a lot. SR is nice to pressure teams, but Ice STABs and especially Ice Shard pressures Nido all game. If it can find the opportunity to outrun a slower Ice mon and doesn't have to fear Ice Shard than Flamethrower pretty much beats the entire team except Articuno (which again you can just keep using SR on it and sack Nido).
Rock
- Gengar can put in work with Focus Blast or with Wisp as nothing on Rock appreciates getting burned except maybe Craidily (since Omastar wants its sash intact for the Shell Smash sweep). Just be careful of AV Ttar and getting Pursuit trapped.
- Nidoking kind of just runs rampant against Rock. If it gets up SR, it breaks sashes. It doens't really fear Shuckle Infestation trapping it since immune to Toxic. And Earth Power dents most Rock mons except Mega Aero and Craidily (with the Sandstorm boost). AV Ttar or max SpD can take a hit, but it doesn't want to switch in all the time.
- Also other note: Mega Venusaur also is an annoying mon for Rock to beat so there's that.

Okay I did my 17 type analysis. Most of this knowledge should be already known but I just went ahead and made it transparent so people don't have to think it out as much. I'm probably missing some important factors, but this took longer than I thought and now I'm going to be late to class.

If you got to the end of reading all those matchups, and believe Gengar is S-rank and Nidoking is A-rank, again I don't mind; that was the purpose of me listing this. Tag Anttya if you want it changed cause she's the only one who can actually change the post and makes the final decision. And to Anttya yeah I did more work, you're welcome -_-

Josh · Sep 23, 2015

^excellent post, except 1 thing.

Sae Sae said:
we didn't really care to clean up the lower ranks since they're irrelevant anyway

I can't really say I agree with this. The point of the lower half of viability rankings is that the mons are still viable, just not as viable/in as many scenarios. The lower ranked mons most definitely aren't supposed to be irrelevant. If a mon is irrelevant, it shouldn't be ranked at all. Yes, lower ranked mons aren't as important, but they are still relevant and shouldn't be ignored. What's the point of even having lower rankings if you aren't going to bother with them?

SubMindRaikou · Sep 23, 2015

I would also like to say that Gengar should be s rank in honour of Dream Eater Gengar :]
Also for the steel matchup the scariest thing is probably mega venusaur since its so hard to wear down to the point were I run Jirachi just to take care of it, which makes Gengar eve scarier since it outspeeds with scarf and so it can weaken it a bunch unlike nidoking, however that is just how I deal with Mega Venusaur and that is more team matchup. Also Gengar can take on Air Balloon defensive heatran since it cant do much back except with fire stab (assuming its epower lava plume toxic rocks) but once Gengar takes out the balloon it doesnt do much after.
However I feel like its easier to make a poison team without nidoking than it is to do without gengar and overall gengar is more s rankish while nidoking is a rankish with nidoqueen imo (they both do similar things but queen is better at bulking and hazards and king is better at attacking)

Sae · Sep 23, 2015

Joshz said:
^excellent post, except 1 thing.

I can't really say I agree with this. The point of the lower half of viability rankings is that the mons are still viable, just not as viable/in as many scenarios. The lower ranked mons most definitely aren't supposed to be irrelevant. If a mon is irrelevant, it shouldn't be ranked at all. Yes, lower ranked mons aren't as important, but they are still relevant and shouldn't be ignored. What's the point of even having lower rankings if you aren't going to bother with them?

Yeah that was bad wording on my part since I kind of rushed through all of this and it still took me about an hour to do rip. What I meant by irrelevant is that cleaning up the lower ranks was irrelevant to the issue of cleaning out the VR. The major problems were with the S-B ranks and spending additional time trying to fix the lower ranks after debating on the other stuff would be more time consuming especially since the initial debate already took a few hours. I still love using the C & D ranks, but again it's not like clearing them out is an important issue atm especially after we were all tired just debating S-ranks for as long as we did.

Yeah rip now I have 5 min for class, but yeah sry about the wording, and if there's any other mistakes I can explain them later.

Arash · Sep 24, 2015

Tagging Anttya as I still believe Gengar is S-rank and Nidoking is A-rank.. SubMindRaikou says it best below:

SubMindRaikou said:
I would also like to say that Gengar should be s rank in honour of Dream Eater Gengar :]
Also for the steel matchup the scariest thing is probably mega venusaur since its so hard to wear down to the point were I run Jirachi just to take care of it, which makes Gengar eve scarier since it outspeeds with scarf and so it can weaken it a bunch unlike nidoking, however that is just how I deal with Mega Venusaur and that is more team matchup. Also Gengar can take on Air Balloon defensive heatran since it cant do much back except with fire stab (assuming its epower lava plume toxic rocks) but once Gengar takes out the balloon it doesnt do much after.
However I feel like its easier to make a poison team without nidoking than it is to do without gengar and overall gengar is more s rankish while nidoking is a rankish with nidoqueen imo (they both do similar things but queen is better at bulking and hazards and king is better at attacking)

Although Sae brings up good points about Nidoking using SR, Nidoqueen in all honesty is a better SR setter due to better defenses and just enough offensive pressure with sheer force and the same coverage as Nidoking.

After all the comments about Gengar in this thread and the old VR thread, along with my own playtesting with both Gengar / Nido / other Nido, I believe that Gengar should move to S-rank, and Nidoking / Nidoqueen are both A-rank material (Nidoking is more of an A+ honestly, but is closer to A than S in my book).

Anttya · Sep 24, 2015

Sae Sae said:
scpinion you do realize you just tagged a bot right?...Not that I mind you calling Ant one but yeah my user is Sae Sae not Sae.

Hmm so we're discussing Gengar vs Nidoking? Well I don't really mind if they swap but I'll just list out some arguments to mull over. (Ariados idc if it stays or drops we didn't really care to clean up the lower ranks since they're irrelevant anyway). Gengar has the nice Levitate ability and really good SpA and Speed to act as a really nice revenge killer especially since it can stop stuff like Dragonite and fighting users from revenging it. Nidoking, on the other hand, has access to SR (I guess TS as well...) and the ability to break the Flying core. The last point is kind of important since Flying is the dominant type in the meta with a 12.78% usage. (To defend Scolipede's S-rank, it's utility to be a hazard lead, LO/Band, and overall usefulness against bad matchups like Psychic and Fire is pretty nifty.)

Anyway since most people really should know this I'll just lay out the types and let's see how this goes:

Flying

Gengar again can put in some work against the sweepers, it's immune to Espeed from Dragonite so if you're Sashed or Scarf you can still revenge from here. Other than that Mandibuzz & Zapdos makes it kind of annoying to beat. Most common items were Scarf, Black Sludge, and Sash so I'm pretty sure most teams aren't going to be using LO+Thunderbolt (then again meta shift but the standard Shadow Ball, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, and HP Ice are still probably going to be trending). It does have the ability to beat Landorus-I with HP Ice which outright beats Poison, but it's kind of hard to do so against the defensive core.

Nidoking with access to Ice Beam breaks through most Flying cores already, but it can supplement it with Thunderbolt if it's really thought necessary to beat some other trickier mons.

Psychic

Gengar obviously can put in work. Scarf lets you revenge stuff, Sub+Wisp can put you in good positions, etc. This is really nice since

Nidoking can't really do much except hit the slower mons and revenge kill after lots of chip damage.

(Tbf though as Anttya says, you could just straight up sweep with a LO/Band Scolipede without having to worry about Meloetta walling your Gengar)

(Another note, most Poison teams should be carrying a Drapion also to Pursuit trap important mons so the matchup honestly could just be Drapion + Scolipede. Gengar will just make the work be faster.)

Steel

Gengar can do decent work here. Focus Blast lets it revenge kill some things and Sub+Wisp can be annoying as hell to all things not Heatran. Annoying thing here is that Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill can Equake you and the rest of the team (including Nido) but can be played around with Mega Venu or Crobat if you go that method.

Nidoking kind of straight up destroys the Steel core. Earth Power and Flamethrower pretty much take care of everything. Really nifty cause Steel is immune to Poison so you can't just wear down these cores with Toxic Spikes.

Bug

Gengar's Levitate I think is more prominent here as it can bypass the Sticky Web and still put in damage. It's also a Spin Blocker to prevent Forretress or Armaldo spinning away SR/TS so in this case Nido+Gengar complement each other. Taunt Gengar I guess could prevent Volcarona from getting QD up but I'm pretty sure 1v1 you don't really want to try that as Gengar is pretty frail.

Nidoking can use SR to pressure the team, and it has access to wide variety of coverage which does include Flamethrower.

Beyond that, they both don't deal with the issue of a Mega Pinsir sweep which is left to Weezing hopefully.

Water

Gengar does alright against Water. It technically has Energy Ball+Thunderbolt coverage which is kind of unlikely (but hey this is Monotype so coverage is coverage). It doesn't do a lot in the matchup, but it doesn't do little. Basically it'll hold its own and give the opportunities for Mega Venusaur to do its thing. Note if you run LO+Focus Blast you have a high chance of sending Empoleon into Torrent range and while a Scald still won't kill you're taking 68.7 - 81.4% with the chance of Empoleon burning you without getting the satisfaction of the kill. At best you trade, at worst LO+burn just killed you.

Nidoking can do enough damage to bulkier mons that are slower than it and also pressures the opponent if you can get it on a Lanturn. Empoleon can't really tank these Special hits from Nidoking so it's basically a free move if you get it in. Tentacruel (Water) can sponge hits from Gengar, but Nidoking proves to be problematic forcing it to switch so basically free damage there since they need Tentacruel as the backup strat to dealing with Mega Venu.

Again the matchup is honestly just Mega Venusaur vs Water. Drapion will cover up the hits from Starmie so Starmie probably won't switch-in that much. Manaphy with Psychic might be annoying if it sets up, but Poison has ways to pressure it to not give the outright sweep.

Fighting

Gengar is immune to most forms of priority here, outruns the infamous base 108 Spe users and can overall put in a lot of work. Not much more needs to be said since the immunity + 110 Spe means a lot.

Nidoking provides to be pretty useful in the lead situation. If you're against Cobalion, even if you get Taunted you just Earth Power kill it. If you don't you get free SR to break other sashes that might be on the team (although Mega Venu kind of walls Breloom anyway but w/e). Against Infernape, getting that damage to put an Endeavor Ape into Sash range will be really useful as then you can pivot to Gengar directly to block Endeavor or save Gengar as it'll be immune to the Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch later.

Poison should do well in this matchup, just don't let a Sub+SD Hawlucha or something somehow sweep you.

Dark

Gengar can do a little bit I guess. The stray Focus Blast connecting is always nice, getting a Taunt or Wisp can be good, but it pretty much faces the problem of Mega Sableye. Also between all the stray Knock Offs, Sucker Punch, and Sandstorm damage potentially breaking a sash, honestly the best way to use it is to Destiny Bond and remove a core part of the Dark core.

Nidoking can put a little bit more work depending whether or not the other side has an Umbreon. It technically can dent Ttar, beat Bisharp, dent Mandibuzz; but again it all really comes down to if there's an Umbreon.

Other mons on the team are going to have to be responsible for this matchup most likely. The Dark core though is just really strong.

Dragon

Gengar is immune to Espeed revenging Gengarr, it can speed tie the Lati twins, and can put damage on the entire team. Not bad at all.

Nidoking is a weird case. It most likely won't put in much work except maybe laying down SR since most of the team outruns it. However, if you find out the Dragon user is using something slow like TankChomp or maybe sends in Dragonite after taking earlier damage then the Dragon user has to let something take a really big hit...unless Goodra but eh damage is damage.

Ground

Well Gengar puts in work being immune to Equake. Wisp can shut down most of the Ground team, and since Exca isn't Mold Breaker, Gengar doesn't fear as much and can just pivot to Weezing to take some hits. Also very big swing factor for Gengar is being able to outrun Landorus-I and use HP Ice on it since Landorus kind of beats Poison by itself.

Nidoking while being weak to Ground hits does alright here too. It can 2HKO or OHKO the entire opposing team except the Water/Ground mons. It's slower than Jolly Exca w/o Sand but faster than Adamant Exca and faster than Jolly Mamo (although Ice Shard). Nido is just in this really weird position in this matchup.

Honestly, Gravity Ground sucks to play against, Lando-I can shit on you and there's a reason this matchup is usually one-sided. Is it doable? Yes, but this is really difficult.

Normal

Gengar can beat Chansey if it has Taunt, Sub, or Trick. Actually Trick Gengar is probably your best bet here as it can just remove Eviolites and randomly cripple things by trading items all over the place and it messes with the other parts of the fat cores like Pory2 (Sub isn't going to be the most reliable thing here since if it's a Foul Play + Ice Beam it can still break the Sub most likely before you can wear it down). Focus Blast dents Diggersby and you're immune to revenge Quick Attack and immune to its other two dual STABs.

Nidoking doesn't really get a chance to do much unless you break the core somehow. SR is always nice to have. Honestly, I don't see it doing much here unless you're the new meta Superpower Nidoking for Monotype.

Fairy

They both put in work do I need to say more?

Fire

Gengar can revenge kill MegaY and a lot of the non-Scarf users. If you are Scarf you can revenge the Scarf users, but just be wary not to let yourself be setup on by a Volcarona. Other than that Focus Blast does nicely to break Heatran balloons and whatnot.

Nidoking can setup SR on Torkoal which is nice meaning you have free SR against the rest of the team. If it chooses to only Rapid Spin then it's a free kill.

0 SpA Torkoal Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 144-170 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

Overall, Fire is considered a bad matchup for Poison but that's usually the case with the more defensive teams since they all break after Drought boosts, Victini with Psychic-type coverage, etc. Offensive/Balanced can actually do decently as they could just opt for LO/Banded Scolipede as Anttya would say.

(Skip Poison)

Ghost

Gengar can revenge kill most things on the team. Just be wary of Shadow Sneak honestly. Not much more needs to be said other than that.

Nidoking can getup SR which is basically impossible to remove unless they have Drifblim rofl. Other than that it can break Aegislash, kind of gets walled by Jellicent, and can threaten out the rest of the other defensive mons not named Mega Sableye (Ice Beam revenges Golurk, hits Trevenant/Gourgeist, Earth Power beats Chandelure, etc).

Also note that if you can lay down TS you can wear down the Mega Sableye. Honestly I like Tentacruel for this match since it pressures out Mega Sables with Acid Spray and can get free TS for that reason.

Electric

Gengar can do its standard thing of getting revenge kills. Pretty standard fare for Gengar. Focus Blast hits Magnezone, Shadow Ball hits most things, etc.

Nidoking is immune to Electric STAB providing a better pivot in this match. It can get up SR fairly easily, it also walls out the Discharge/Toxic/Roost/Defog Zapdos even though I'd have thought they'd run Heat Wave somewhere on there (meaning it wouldn't have Toxic). While Roost + Pressure can PP stall you, Zapdos can't reliably switch in for fear of a predict and getting hit by an Ice Beam meaning it gets 2HKO'd.

Honestly this matchup is mostly in Poison's hands...except if there is a Raikou. My personal favorite team so far for Lower Tier Monotype has been Electric precisely because it has the tools to beat all the types beneath Normal (yay Electric doesn't get walled by Chansey in this meta!) Basically don't get swept by SubCM Extrasensory Raikou. Raikou can usually setup on Mega Venu if they don't have Equake, it sets up on Tentacruel, and a couple of other mons. Also it's fast so it outruns Gengar, Nido, and the rest of the squad besides maybe a Crobat.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 134-160 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 250-296 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nidoking can basically pressure Raikou into not going for the sweep. Raikou can freely go for a +1 on Gengar as it will just KO Gengar next turn thus getting two lefties turns. But if your Mega Venusaur is weakened it could be a straight up sweep either way.

Even Scolipede might not be enough to beat Raikou since it can sub as you get the speed boost and then kill you with Extransensory if it already has a boost or you're already weakened. Even more so if Scolipede is a LO attacker meaning it can Sub stall it a bit to put it in range.

(So yeah that's just thoughts if they have Raikou, not entirely relevant for standard meta, but Poison is a LTM type so I'm going to leave that there since I'm kind of responsible for that meta anyway.)

Grass

They both put in work. Moving on.

Ice

Gengar does its usual thing of revenge killing. Focus Blast breaks Ice teams apart and Shadow Ball can finish. Standard Gengar stuff.

Nidoking can put a little bit of work, just not a lot. SR is nice to pressure teams, but Ice STABs and especially Ice Shard pressures Nido all game. If it can find the opportunity to outrun a slower Ice mon and doesn't have to fear Ice Shard than Flamethrower pretty much beats the entire team except Articuno (which again you can just keep using SR on it and sack Nido).

Rock

Gengar can put in work with Focus Blast or with Wisp as nothing on Rock appreciates getting burned except maybe Craidily (since Omastar wants its sash intact for the Shell Smash sweep). Just be careful of AV Ttar and getting Pursuit trapped.

Nidoking kind of just runs rampant against Rock. If it gets up SR, it breaks sashes. It doens't really fear Shuckle Infestation trapping it since immune to Toxic. And Earth Power dents most Rock mons except Mega Aero and Craidily (with the Sandstorm boost). AV Ttar or max SpD can take a hit, but it doesn't want to switch in all the time.

Also other note: Mega Venusaur also is an annoying mon for Rock to beat so there's that.

Okay I did my 17 type analysis. Most of this knowledge should be already known but I just went ahead and made it transparent so people don't have to think it out as much. I'm probably missing some important factors, but this took longer than I thought and now I'm going to be late to class.

If you got to the end of reading all those matchups, and believe Gengar is S-rank and Nidoking is A-rank, again I don't mind; that was the purpose of me listing this. Tag Anttya if you want it changed cause she's the only one who can actually change the post and makes the final decision. And to Anttya yeah I did more work, you're welcome -_-

Sigh idk what to say, you sure you're not sick or something?

Anyways, nice analysis. I decided to swap Nidoking and Gengar's places because after reading Arash's stuff on the old VR thread they made sense, and it's pretty obvious that he understands Poison (way more than me xd)

Arash · Sep 24, 2015

Anttya said:
Sigh idk what to say, you sure you're not sick or something?

Anyways, nice analysis. I decided to swap Nidoking and Gengar's places because after reading Arash's stuff on the old VR thread they made sense, and it's pretty obvious that he understands Poison (way more than me xd)

Thanks Anttya, poison has been my favorite since Gen 1 (which would have been its golden age if not for Alaka-broken)

I've been dabbling in rock recently and will probably post some playstyles once I know what I'm talking about, but I noticed you don't have a link for Tyrantrum (rock), so....

Tyrantrum for B rank (Rock)

Tyrantrum has a unique typing that helps rock teams defensively due to grass and water neutrality (electric resistance doesn't hurt, either). Unfortunately, its dragon typing is useless offensively. Tyrantrum can go one of two routes with attacking due to its two abilities:

- Strong Jaw: Getting a STAB boost on jaw moves is super awesome for something with fire/ice/thunder fang and crunch. This variant will typically run DD, as it isn't all that powerful unboosted and kinda slow; DD patches up both of these problems at once. Fire Fang in particular helps it beat Skarm/Ferro, and Ice beats Lando/Gliscor after 1 DD (all of these are a pain for Rock teams to face). This variant is useful for its coverage options, and with Crunch / DD and the same speed as Mega-Tyranitar, it is a good substitute for it that doesn't eat up your mega slot. Doesn't take bullet punches as well as MegaTar (takes mach punches better though, and trades aqua jet weakness for ice shard weakness) but it can eat 1 unboosted Scizor bullet punch and OHKO with jaw-boosted fire fang. Most rock teams have plenty of mons with rock attacks, so a set with no STABs is even better in mono than in OU.

- Rock Head: This trades coverage for sheer power; Head Smash with no recoil doesn't leave very many switch ins, and most of the things that resist Rock hate taking EQ. Rock/EQ is usually the extent of the coverage here, and as such it can afford to run a "double-dance" set with hone claws / rock polish. Dragon STAB is kinda meh, as neutral Head Smash does more than SE dragon claw, and Outrage locks you in which usually results in Tyrantrum dying.

Tyrantrum, despite having crappy special defense and being kinda slow without boosts (+2 speed fails to outspeed scarf Keldeo, which sucks), is a viable option for rock teams looking for a boosting mon or something that can stomach some priority attacks. I mean, cmon:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 273-322 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Thunder Fang vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 398-470 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 206-246 (63.3 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 332-392 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

... and it's a freaking T-REX!! probably the best design to come out of Gen 6 art, imo

EDIT: Since I don't know how to link posts, I'm just gonna tag Anttya...

Vid · Oct 6, 2015

I'd like to bring up a rank change concerning a Pokemon that has been gaining lots of momentum in the monotype meta. Cloyster (Water) I have seeing it more and more on water teams and it is being used very effectively by many of players that have found success with it. This Pokemon makes flying, dragon, and grass match ups a bit easier for water which are key match ups (flying more specifically) to have a Pokemon to give you the W late game. I feel like this growing trend of people using Cloyster on water teams should be reflected on the viability rankings. Cloyster B-->A (Water)

Dece1t · Oct 10, 2015

I know the activity here the last week hasn't been amazing, I thought I'd spark some discussion.

Mega Gardevoir A Rank -> S Rank (Psychic)

To be fairly honest I was never for it being dropped in the first place. It's a great wallbreaker, forms an outstanding offensive core with Hoopa-U, and is a very notable threat to dark teams. I personally think it is better than Mega Gallade in terms of viability, and it is still the most used mega right now. If anything I'd drop Mega Gallade to A rank, and rise Gardevoir to S rank. I don't think this is needed, but I'll provide a sample set anyways.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt / Protect / Calm Mind

This can work as a great anti lead, or a formidable wallbreaker. The rest is pretty self explanatory.

Neimenko · Oct 11, 2015

I agree with this nom. I found mega gardevoir much more useful against dark (gallade is more useful vs. steel tho). I'd also slash substitute on last slot. It helps against bisharp to possibly avoid sucker punch.

Dece1t · Oct 12, 2015

There's another nom I wanna make for viability rankings as well, this isn't for a pokemon tho.

Remove the * from the Viability

@allfallsdown mentioned this some time ago, and I agree with him 100%. I don't see the point of it. If a pokemon is naturally very good, that's still beneficial to a type (and some of them don't make sense, ex diancie on rock). If a pokemon is naturally good, they still benefit a type a lot, bc they're using it. I don't see a real point in adding that to the system, and I wouldn't mind it being removed.

Wish9 · Oct 13, 2015

Stunfisk The Great said:
I know the activity here the last week hasn't been amazing, I thought I'd spark some discussion.

Mega Gardevoir A Rank -> S Rank (Psychic)

To be fairly honest I was never for it being dropped in the first place. It's a great wallbreaker, forms an outstanding offensive core with Hoopa-U, and is a very notable threat to dark teams. I personally think it is better than Mega Gallade in terms of viability, and it is still the most used mega right now. If anything I'd drop Mega Gallade to A rank, and rise Gardevoir to S rank. I don't think this is needed, but I'll provide a sample set anyways.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt / Protect / Calm Mind

This can work as a great anti lead, or a formidable wallbreaker. The rest is pretty self explanatory.

Considering Dark is still pretty strong atm and Psychic doesn't really have much to break through Mega Sableye, I completely agree.

Physical Tyranitar · Oct 30, 2015

Tyranitar from S Rank to A Rank in Monotype Dark
Ok it pains me to say this, but Tyranitar doesn't really have a place in S Rank. It's a staple, but it is nowhere near as centralizing as other staples like Hoopa-Unbound, Sableye, Mandibuzz, Bisharp, and others. Tyranitar's typing doesn't really matter, as it still takes a lot of damage from Bug Types, and while it has Sand Stream, which boosts it's Special Defense to the highest in the game potentially, this is actually detrimental to it's Dark Type teammates. Yes, it has Stealth Rock, and it is a common staple, but in my opinion, it isn't as centralizing to be S Rank.

I also noticed that all of my reviews for Pokemon were deleted after the Monotype Viability Thread, which wouldn't be really agitating to me, but it seems that the "Musharna For D Rank" and "Mega Lopunny for S Rank" were pretty justified in my opinion. The Monotype Council, if you feel that these ratings are not needed, please let me know why so I can improve my rating presence otherwise.

all falls down · Oct 30, 2015

Physical Tyranitar said:
Tyranitar from S Rank to A Rank in Monotype Dark
Ok it pains me to say this, but Tyranitar doesn't really have a place in S Rank. It's a staple, but it is nowhere near as centralizing as other staples like Hoopa-Unbound, Sableye, Mandibuzz, Bisharp, and others. Tyranitar's typing doesn't really matter, as it still takes a lot of damage from Bug Types, and while it has Sand Stream, which boosts it's Special Defense to the highest in the game potentially, this is actually detrimental to it's Dark Type teammates. Yes, it has Stealth Rock, and it is a common staple, but in my opinion, it isn't as centralizing to be S Rank.

I also noticed that all of my reviews for Pokemon were deleted after the Monotype Viability Thread, which wouldn't be really agitating to me, but it seems that the "Musharna For D Rank" and "Mega Lopunny for S Rank" were pretty justified in my opinion. The Monotype Council, if you feel that these ratings are not needed, please let me know why so I can improve my rating presence otherwise.

I wholeheartedly disagree with moving Tyranitar to A. It's so incredibly unique and adds so much to Dark teams that you really lose nothing from using it. Apart from being useless against Fighting (even then, it can set up rocks against a choice locked Pokemon or if it has Chople it can set up rocks and cripple Pokemon), it's useful in every single matchup. Its access to Stealth Rock shouldn't be downplayed because some form of hazards is pretty much essential to every team, and Bisharp as a Stealth Rock user isn't quite as good, whereas Krookodile struggles to fit in teams.

Aside from its access to hazards, its an amazing special sponge that can deal with a lot of Pokemon that threaten Dark; Dark's core is really weak to strong special attackers; without Tyranitar, Pokemon like Charizard, Heatran, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Kyurem-B, and Zapdos can steamroll the whole team. Even with minimal investment, it can serve as a last minute check to threatening pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie, as it is the only thing that will survive a fairy STAB move and can revenge kill. Even though its Rock typing isn't ideal, its stats and movepool alone are enough to make it a staple for Dark teams. It can even pull off an offensive set with or without its mega, though that set is probably not the most helpful.

As for your other nominations, Musharna is quite literally terrible and should never be ranked on this list, but I can see Lopunny moving up.

vlmufa · Oct 31, 2015

Salamence from D --> B (Dragon)

Ok, so, to make it clear I saw salamence D rank on dragon but if you click on the link it brings you up to an analysis for A rank, which is weird. Not sure if it's a mistake that needs to be fixed but I'm going to make an analysis anyway.

Why B?
Salamence is one of the best scarfers on dragon that doesn't ignore a superior set if running scarf. That means you can consider Latios as a better scarfer, but scarf Latios is outclassed by Life orb+Defog. Salamence has a great ability in Moxie which allows it to run a powerful scarf set that gains more power the more faints it gets. Its base 135 attack stat allows it to get easy faints and possibly wallbreak after 1 Moxie boost. It gives dragon an awesome late game sweeper.

Alternatively, Salemence can run a Dragon Dance set, but it's arguably outclassed by Dragonite so I don't consider it B rank.

Scarf Salamence

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Iron Tail / Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast

Outrage is its main STAB that can sweep teams. Earthquake OHKO's Heatran and hits other steel types that Outrage can't touch. Iron tail is used for fairies and provides great pressure for dragon mono. Fire blast is to hit physical walls like Skarmory and Ferrothorn that cant be hit by Earthquake for effective damage.

Now seeing that the dragons standing at B tier are: Kingdra, (which isn't all that great, maybe consider a drop?) Dragalge, (which just provides a Fairy check and Toxic Spikes) and Mega Latias (which is outclassed by normal Latias), I believe Salamence deserves to be up there (or possibly even A rank?).

Arash · Nov 1, 2015

vlmufa said:
Salamence from D --> B (Dragon)

Now seeing that the dragons standing at B tier are: Kingdra, (which isn't all that great, maybe consider a drop?) Dragalge, (which just provides a Fairy check and Toxic Spikes) and Mega Latias (which is outclassed by normal Latias), I believe Salamence deserves to be up there (or possibly even A rank?).

I agree that Salamence deserves a bump up, but I think C rank may be more suitable. The B-tier dragons all do something that no other Dragon can't:

- Kingdra is neutral to Ice, and can run either an offensive Rain Dance set with Water/Dragon/Steel coverage (with the ability to go either physical or special with equal effectiveness, which adds to your teambuilding options) or it can run the CritDra set, spamming Meteors without a care in the world. No Fairy is going to enjoy eating Crit/Sniper'd hydro pumps except for Azumarill / Whimsicott, and you can still run Flash Cannon for these two. Kingdra imo is fine in B rank.

- Dragalge is neutral to Fairy, and is Dragon's only source of Toxic Spikes (if you care). I already detailed above how Dragalge actually loses to the most common fairies you'll see (Mega-Gardevoir and Azumarill), and on a fairy team Klefki will switch in all day and set-up Light Screen to make Dragalge extra worthless. This thing is also slow as molasses and cannot take physical hits well. Unless someone can make a case for Dragon needing a toxic spiker real bad, Dragalge is more C-rank material imo.

- Mega Latias is definitely not outclassed by regular form; it gains a significant bump in bulk, +30 BST to its special attack (not quite as much as life orb's boost, but it doesn't sap 10% of your health each turn either), and it's not like you have a missed opportunity cost of running other megas on Dragon (Garchomp maybe, but normal Garchomp is also very effective with other items). Latias may outclass it on a purely offensive set due to items, but Mega-Latias has superior defenses and is better at both a support set and a bulky CM set. Mega Latias is a great example of a B rank mon for Dragon.

Salamence, on the other hand, faces competition from other Dragons for your scarfer on the team. It is true that the scarf set is Salamence's best set overall, but when you have the choice to run Garchomp / Latios / Latias / Kyurem-B on the same team, designating one of these as a scarfer isn't that hard. Each of these does something Salamence can't (Chomp is immune to T-wave and gets STAB on EQ as well as access to Iron Head and Poison Jab, Latis can use trick and Psyshock helps hit on both sides of the spectrum, and Kyu-B is neutral to Ice Shard and gets Fusion Bolt / Iron Head).

Salamence isn't as crappy as Flygon (the other D-rank Dragon), but C-rank IMO is more suitable for it.

Also, while we're here...

Zygarde (Dragon) --- C-rank --> B-rank (credit to Shadowfollowed on DeviantArt for the sick artwork):

Zygarde faces competition from Garchomp and (lol) Flygon as your Ground/Dragon slot. However, Zygarde does some things Garchomp cannot do, and has proven invaluable with (IMO) its best set on Dragon, the coil set:

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Max investment in special defense along with its ridiculous HP means that Zygarde lives through most HP ices and even some Ice Beams from weaker mons, while Coil boosts your Defense alongside your Attack and Accuracy. After one coil, Stone Miss becomes Stone Hit (>100% acc), and it has access to the coveted ExtremeSpeed (after +2 or so, it will kill a surprisingly large number of faster threats after Stealth Rocks).

STAB Earthquake is valuable vs Steels, and Fairies generally aren't going to want to take Stone Edges and Xspeed from this thing. No Dragon move because it's covered by the rest of your team, and Rock/Ground/Normal coverage hits everything neutrally except for Bronzong (if you ever see one in mono).

Zygarde overall has more to offer to mono-dragon than the current C-rank mons, Dragalge, and Salamence. It can also run a DD set to some effect, but this is usually outclassed by Dnite who also gets Xspeed and is more bulky with Multiscale intact. Overall B-rank is suitable for it, IMO.

Also, since i don't know how to link posts, tagging Anttya here as well as the Tyrantrum post from earlier.

Dece1t · Nov 1, 2015

Arash said:
I agree that Salamence deserves a bump up, but I think C rank may be more suitable. The B-tier dragons all do something that no other Dragon can't:

- Kingdra is neutral to Ice, and can run either an offensive Rain Dance set with Water/Dragon/Steel coverage (with the ability to go either physical or special with equal effectiveness, which adds to your teambuilding options) or it can run the CritDra set, spamming Meteors without a care in the world. No Fairy is going to enjoy eating Crit/Sniper'd hydro pumps except for Azumarill / Whimsicott, and you can still run Flash Cannon for these two. Kingdra imo is fine in B rank.

- Dragalge is neutral to Fairy, and is Dragon's only source of Toxic Spikes (if you care). I already detailed above how Dragalge actually loses to the most common fairies you'll see (Mega-Gardevoir and Azumarill), and on a fairy team Klefki will switch in all day and set-up Light Screen to make Dragalge extra worthless. This thing is also slow as molasses and cannot take physical hits well. Unless someone can make a case for Dragon needing a toxic spiker real bad, Dragalge is more C-rank material imo.

- Mega Latias is definitely not outclassed by regular form; it gains a significant bump in bulk, +30 BST to its special attack (not quite as much as life orb's boost, but it doesn't sap 10% of your health each turn either), and it's not like you have a missed opportunity cost of running other megas on Dragon (Garchomp maybe, but normal Garchomp is also very effective with other items). Latias may outclass it on a purely offensive set due to items, but Mega-Latias has superior defenses and is better at both a support set and a bulky CM set. Mega Latias is a great example of a B rank mon for Dragon.

Salamence, on the other hand, faces competition from other Dragons for your scarfer on the team. It is true that the scarf set is Salamence's best set overall, but when you have the choice to run Garchomp / Latios / Latias / Kyurem-B on the same team, designating one of these as a scarfer isn't that hard. Each of these does something Salamence can't (Chomp is immune to T-wave and gets STAB on EQ as well as access to Iron Head and Poison Jab, Latis can use trick and Psyshock helps hit on both sides of the spectrum, and Kyu-B is neutral to Ice Shard and gets Fusion Bolt / Iron Head).

Salamence isn't as crappy as Flygon (the other D-rank Dragon), but C-rank IMO is more suitable for it.

Also, while we're here...

Zygarde (Dragon) --- C-rank --> B-rank (credit to Shadowfollowed on DeviantArt for the sick artwork):
View attachment 52163

Zygarde faces competition from Garchomp and (lol) Flygon as your Ground/Dragon slot. However, Zygarde does some things Garchomp cannot do, and has proven invaluable with (IMO) its best set on Dragon, the coil set:

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Max investment in special defense along with its ridiculous HP means that Zygarde lives through most HP ices and even some Ice Beams from weaker mons, while Coil boosts your Defense alongside your Attack and Accuracy. After one coil, Stone Miss becomes Stone Hit (>100% acc), and it has access to the coveted ExtremeSpeed (after +2 or so, it will kill a surprisingly large number of faster threats after Stealth Rocks).

STAB Earthquake is valuable vs Steels, and Fairies generally aren't going to want to take Stone Edges and Xspeed from this thing. No Dragon move because it's covered by the rest of your team, and Rock/Ground/Normal coverage hits everything neutrally except for Bronzong (if you ever see one in mono).

Zygarde overall has more to offer to mono-dragon than the current C-rank mons, Dragalge, and Salamence. It can also run a DD set to some effect, but this is usually outclassed by Dnite who also gets Xspeed and is more bulky with Multiscale intact. Overall B-rank is suitable for it, IMO.

Also, since i don't know how to link posts, tagging Anttya here as well as the Tyrantrum post from earlier.

Some of these tbh I disagree with. Salamence despite not being as good as it was in gen 5, is certainly still a good sweeper, that I feel deserves b rank. Same for Dragalge, as it's a nice bulky tank, and a niche of hitting fairies super effectively, that should remain b rank. If anything, Kingdra is more c rank than it. Latias, I agree with you there. Zygarde, while an interesting mon, besides glare, Garchomp completely c outclasses it in ever way possible, that I think is c ranked.

Arash · Nov 1, 2015

Stunfisk The Great said:
Some of these tbh I disagree with. Salamence despite not being as good as it was in gen 5, is certainly still a good sweeper, that I feel deserves b rank. Same for Dragalge, as it's a nice bulky tank, and a niche of hitting fairies super effectively, that should remain b rank. If anything, Kingdra is more c rank than it. Latias, I agree with you there. Zygarde, while an interesting mon, besides glare, Garchomp completely c outclasses it in ever way possible, that I think is c ranked.

Salamence's problem isn't so much that it got worse from last gen, but rather that fairies were introduced (it cannot just click Outrage late game and watch things die). Mence is good at DD/scarf/mixed sets, but you only have 6 pokemon you can have on your team, and Salamence is flawed in that it doesn't offer something unique that can't be covered by another, higher-ranked Dragon.

Dragalge to be honest I could see at either B or C, but in my experience it doesn't do a great job at stopping fairies. It can switch into most fairy attacks and does OK vs Mega-Diancie, so I could see this going either way...

Zygarde has access to Coil, ExtremeSpeed, DD, and Glare, which IMO is enough to not be considered completely outclassed by Garchomp since these are all things Garchomp cannot do. Garchomp is overall a better Ground/Dragon sure (and can use a mega stone) but Zygarde has enough things going for it to have a better rank than the likes of Tyrantrum / Drudiggon / Goodra and pals.

Monotype Viability Rankings

Anttya

Anttya

Anttya

Dece1t

Arash

Dece1t

Arash

Sae

In the midst of Orre

Josh

=P

SubMindRaikou

Sae

In the midst of Orre

Arash

Anttya

Arash

Vid

Our life is what our thoughts make it

Dece1t

Neimenko

Dece1t

Wish9

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze

all falls down

thanks ugly god

vlmufa

Arash

Dece1t

Arash

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