Format Discussion Monotype in Gen 7 Battle Factory and going forward

[Wigglytuff]

thread approved by frostyicelad

This is a thread regarding Monotype in Gen 7 Battle Factory. Please do not post if your post is only about the competitive merits of Monotype as a tier - I am not making any commentary on Monotype within this thread, only about Monotype within the context of Gen 7 Battle Factory.

I've been playing a lot of BF over the past year and have reason (see below) to believe that I have a good grasp on the format and am qualified to speak on it.

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and that's just my Gen8BattleFactory account, I have several with 80+ GXEs (my main has 86 I believe). I usually hover around the top of the ladder and at above 89 gxe.

I've played enough Battle Factory to know that the combination of competitively optimized sets and a random team generator will not produce fair matchups 100% of the time. It doesn't even do so the majority of the time. Most of the matchups that I run into in my 1500+ games on this account have had an imbalance where either I or my opponent had the advantage, and whoever won came down to whether the disadvantaged person was able to outplay well enough to offset the element of matchup. I would think that my high W/L ratio and GXE is evidence that I am both able to hold onto a win when I have the matchup advantage and able to flip a disadvantaged matchup a good portion of the time.

However, there is a small minority of games where the matchup advantage is to such a degree that it doesn't really matter how well the disadvantaged side plays (or how poorly the advantaged side plays, for that matter). You can see this in all of the tiers occasionally - Darkrai in Ubers is especially notorious, where if it hits Hypnosis you pretty much just win the game and if it doesn't, it at least takes down a mon if played half decently (Honchkrow in RU is also similar to this, most of the time it kills itself off of recoil and Life Orb rather than you actually having the tools to check it) - but generally the diversity of the tier is enough to keep this as a minority rather than a majority.

This is not the case in Monotype. By virtue of the combination of Same Type Clause, optimized sets, and a random team generator, 100-0 matchups are the standard rather than an occasional occurrence.

Here's a collection of games where I detail why the matchup is overwhelmingly unfair. They're not necessarily 100-0 matchups, but the matchup advantage is so high that the disadvantaged needs to lead perfectly, double perfectly, and hope that their opponents sets aren't the best ones in order to win. And I should add that a lot of them are just straight up 100-0 matchups.

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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1388921650-np45iv2b5q5kgq4wca72gn1pjxbm4m2pw
I got this game while I was writing the thread. First Monotype roll of the day, and unsurprisingly the matchup is stupid.
I just have no win condition. There is no way to keep hazards up against a Tentacruel, so there's really no way to chip Suicune enough to maybe aim for a Stakataka Trick Room Z-Rock sweep. There's no real way to stop the Gyarados either. I'll admit I didn't play this optimally, but either way, Gyarados gets at least 2 kills and at that point, I don't have enough mons to break the Gastro, Azu, and Suicune.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1388265906-24fg8zm7e0pujx7ckwnfkl0ejgno5olpw
I actually choked this one, but the only reason I was in a winning position to choke was because my opponent played this poorly. Because I have no physical attackers, AV Muk walls my entire team. Z-Conversion Porygon-Z might be a possible win con, but Shadow Ball is first, so it gets easily picked off by Muk if I Z and if I don't Z, it doesn't really kill anything. So, my wincon was getting up rocks and hoping to chip down AV Muk enough that I'm able to kill it with Mega Audino (lmao) and also get chip on the other mons so that my Scarf Meloetta can sweep with Psychic. It's very easy for my opponent to counter this - just don't bring out Muk. The other mons are sufficiently tanky enough to handle my Porygon 2 (defensive mon), Ditto (pretty limited utility in Mono if not against dragon), and Audino Mega (lmao). Worst case scenario, I get a kill on something with Meloetta Psychic and then Muk can Pursuit trap and then I have no way of breaking the team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1386464705-2g03pk2xoi0zprkbch4rimb8tpmfab9pw
Electric v Electric. You might think that the matchup is more even, but that's not even really true.
I don't have a wincon here. As soon as webs go up, I can't touch Thundurus-T, Mega Mane, Galvantula. My Lanturn will no longer outspeed Golem-A, Raichu-A no longer outspeeds Rotom-Mow. I guess I can win if I make the perfect doubles every time, but eventually I'll slip up and then the checks to Thund-T will get picked off. I suppose I should've kept my Manectric unMega'd and tried harder to preserve Lanturn, but it's very easy for my opponent to just pressure my other mons.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1386463276-bq6qv7qxo5teaxpp9rtljw3cmm4q530pw
Ground vs Poison. I win via timeout but it's not hard to see that there's no way I was winning this otherwise. My best shot is through Ice Beam Nido, which doesn't outspeed most of my opponent's team (especially if Diggersby is scarf, which I would presume a Diggersby lead to indicate) and it doesn't even really do that much to Pert. As soon as rocks go up, Crobat can't manage all 6 ground types on its own and all it takes is one prediction to take it out and then sweep with Earthquake from any mon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1386015967-itz6v7kszv09uu433apedbidyvyy9ripw
Psychic vs Rock. The presence of Metagross just invalidates everything. I don't even have to predict, because banded mash kills everything. All I need to do is keep Sash Alakazam in the back until Minior shell smashes, and there's no way I can lose this.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1383373399-4kj1l4eleh4e05ryi6mcuk93ilj0l3epw
Sub with Chesnaught on any mon that's not Aero and collect win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1381685032-sleuuefkd3r5rw34hl8esxsfievb5zmpw
Dragon type in general is just overpowered as hell. All my opponent has to do is break Bisharp's sash with Rocks, DD with Altaria on any of Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Cacturne (lol), and win. Z-Dragalge can force progress to speed up this process.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1381056000-bf2awqzbuneh4ypyrof8wi3yu2u5rbppw
I got outplayed as fuck, but my criticism with this situation is that the game comes down to 2 Pursuit vs Sucker Punch mind games. If I win those, I win. If I mess up on one, I lose. I don't think that a game should come down to two incredibly short term predictions. It's not a complete matchup win like the others, but I think it illustrates the general problem with Monotype in BF.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1377216061-8vhg1sz3b8p9te0tdupxjsetue4vdxhpw
This was actually a pretty cool game where I used Kyu-B Teravolt to maintain my Disguise on Mimikyu while setting up. Still doesn't change that this was a 100-0 matchup.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1377195922-9l7ud29cok6mhi8da0vbm243os8v43epw
I can't both break the A-muk, amoonguss, and Venusaur while still defending against the NP Toxicroak and Nihilego.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1376867992-fnk6ns3563gp8iuylnormvlgmqvxieipw
Once rocks go up, I can't keep them off (because apparently Monotype runs 0 speed Tentacruel or something...), and after rocks, Life Orb craw jet or knock cleans everything except for Skuntank which gets taken down by everything that's not Crawdaunt. There's no way to win this.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1373741385-l9yvztjzwyriiav9n7v5mjv3tkguo4epw
Fire type is overpowered because I think it always gets Torkoal to set sun, whereas Rock/Water/Ice/Ground don't necessarily have weather setters to change that. Not that it matters, because I pulled Ice type and had no chance anyway.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1372456674-h71a0u1zn0174mdp7ye2obuaa1tfr2npw
This is a game that really irritates me because it was a game against one of the best ladderers and I actually played this as reasonably well as possible, and that wasn't enough for the matchup.
Everything hinged on whether Krookodile was scarf or not. If it was Scarf, then I had no chance of winning. All Natu has to do is get up rocks and then Knock on Rotom-Frost when it comes in. If it's not Scarf, I still have to outplay to make sure that I either have rocks up to break the possible sash on Dugtrio so that I can sweep with Scarf Rotom-Frost Blizzard or Scarf Xurk energy ball. My rocker is Golem-A, which dies to pretty much everything on Natu's team. Unfortunately the krook was scarf so all of that was moot.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1371915581-csm2e4au9hxkcn9vhu7vabysefmlk1bpw
This game is irritating for another reason. excuse me in the chat trying to educate this clown.
There is nothing I can do vs stored power Latias, except for Dynamic Punch confuse hax + stone edge crit. I actually get this, but then he freezes my Quagsire and I just lose after that.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1360599313-ioeqmub9tlqchf5sljphmdoodmykixnpw
This is actually the first time I've ever had a 6 turn game. Thanks Monotype!


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1360042023-ppqaa76s530nh6qoei05snyj6f1c7c3pw
I botched this pretty bad but cmon. Meloetta handles the special attackers and then grabs a kill on pretty much everything, and then Bewear handles the physical attackers and sleeps once it gets too low.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1357915042-mg2xupexd2r82vcgbk16s52feni5c8cpw
On first glance, it looks like I should easily win this. However, you'll notice that I only have Physical attackers. The Mew outspeeds all of them and has Wisp. There is actually no reason I should win this - I manage to do it by catching the mew with Shadow Sneak, but that's due to my opponent's inexperience. The Lati is possibly Healing Wish too so my opponent doesn't even have to keep Mew above 50% or whatever. After that, just wall with Rachi, Lati, and Melo. Melo is specs HP fire so eventually I lose.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1350979221-960fhp760vta5n695k9u34wjgkyc9xwpw
I won this by annoying my opponent into forfeiting. Not sure why they forfeited, they still won. This is a 100-0 matchup if played reasonably, which my opponent didn't.

I would estimate this to be 70% of my Monotype games since I started keeping track since June 1st. The other 30% I felt like my/the opponent's misplaying was the primary reason for loss, rather than matchup. I've talked to other players around the top and Monotype is also their least favorite tier to pull for similar reasons.

That's an assessment of Monotype in BF in the field. It's not as simple as Ghost wins vs Psychic, but it is very common that one Pokemon's set is optimized to just dominate an entire type. Multiply that by 6 pokemon per team and it's not a surprise that such lopsided games end up happening at such a high frequency.

I don't think much more argumentation is needed, but here's other things about Monotype in BF that suck:

# of sets per mon:
Here's an image of the sets for Garchomp, a pretty versatile mon, in the usage based tiers:

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Here's 3 images of Garchomp sets in Monotype:

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My guess (not a Monotype player) is that these sets are split between Ground and Dragon type teams, but I haven't noticed any distinction in practice. In any case, it makes it incredibly difficult to actually know what the Garchomp in front of you is gonna do. Is it going to Mega and tank your +1 Psychic? Is it going to Z-Fire and take out your Skarmory? Is it going to dodge your attack from random Sand Veil? All of this contributes to the general variance experienced in Monotype in BF.


Dragon is OP as hell:
Dragon just fucks up everything EXCEPT for Fairy. Steel's not even that good against it, between Garchomp, Fire Fang Mence, Dragonite usually carrying Earthquake, and the Latis, you can usually manage steel.


Conclusion:
The combination of optimized sets, random team generator, and Same Type Clause inevitably leads to situations where the game is almost completely out of the players' hands in the majority of cases. Even if it's not as simple as Dark owns Psychic, the fact that the battle is decided at team preview remains.

A while ago, I suggested that Team Preview be added to randbats in a pretty obvious measure to increase the competitiveness of randbats (and this has only increased in merit since Dynamax happened). I was told that if I wanted "balanced rands," I should play Battle Factory. How can we, in good faith, suggest people to play Battle Factory as a fair metagame if 1/8 tiers generates unwinnable matchups a majority of the time? I propose that we remove Monotype from Battle Factory.

As far as I'm aware, all of my objections to Monotype in BF apply to Gen 8 (not a monotype player tho) so if this proposal is accepted, it should also be applied to the eventual Gen 8 Battle Factory.

 

[Celever]

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. Monotype is my least favourite randomised meta, and is a significant reason why I have little interest in BF at all. Rolling the dice as to whether you have any chance of winning feels like a waste of time, and while unwinnable matchups are a necessary feature of randbats, it's such a rarity in any other format that it's copeable.

Beyond that pragmatic stance, I also struggle with the principle of having Monotype there. Monotype is a format that has fundamentally different rules than every other format in Battle Factory, owing to Same Type Clause. Every other format in BF has the same clauses, including LC (granted you could describe the level 5 cap as technically an additional clause but it's generally not considered as such). For this reason, Monotype has always been an ugly duckling that is principally different to the other BF formats. If it was included just because it became an official Smogon format in Gen VII then I understand it, but Smogon Doubles has been an official Smogon format since Gen V. It would actually be more consistent to then have random double battles thrown into BF alongside Monotype, rather than one or the other; at that point BF would include every official Smogon format, if that's the aim.

There's also the important note that Monotype Random Battle already exists. Of course, BF is different to regular random battles because the sets are pre-made rather than semi-random. However, Wigglytuff provides a good example of how Monotype tends to have more sets per Pokémon than other BF formats, and I think most Monotype Random Battles players would say that monorands is superior to the version of it in BF anyway.

So I support this change and if it happens I would probably play BF more. As it stands, Monotype sours me too much that I don't even touch it, despite really liking it in concept and often enjoying BF roomtours when they happen until I get Monotype in them.

 

[ORAS-Mega]

As someone who has spent a good amount of time on battle factory, I cannot stress how frustrating it is to be climbing and be dealt a hand as monotype. Fire vs Steel (with no heatran), water vs electric, which is my favorite because all the electric types know grass knot anyways, and so on. It's not frustrating because it ruins my laddering, its frustrating because its not even competitive at that point. Even when I get the "good" side of this match up, its not a good win. It just feels like, oh you're lucky, here's a win.

Now here in my opinion is the key part that monotype is missing. Being able to choose what type you want to use.

Let me elaborate. I have played a bit of gen7 monotype, and I have also seen some tournament plays. There are unfavorable match ups, but not 0-100 like battle factory makes them. This is because most of the times, people get to make their teams and set very specific sets that can counter most types they are glaringly weak to. In monotype on battle factory though, its like "here, make the best of it". Which is part of the challenge yes, but when it comes to monotype, especially between two high ladder players on an unfavorable MU, the one with the bad hand has to wait until the other person messes up. Which most of the times is a hopeless wait and does in no way really showcase skill.

I know the same sentiments can be said of any random format, that there is more "luck" than skill especially dependent on what mons were given to the players, but monotype just sets itself different as in my opinion, the luck gained here can clearly outweigh the skill you bring most of the time.

For reference, here's showing that I spend

too much time

on this ladder. And will probably continue to do so. But monotype in my opinion should go, because I don't think there is an efficient way to balance a meta like this unless everything became standardized which would be even more complicated and cause some other types to auto lose.

 

[Irpachuza]

Hi guys! First of all, let me tell you that I love seeing the community posting and debating about our formats! Thanks!

We've been speaking about the BF situation for a while now, between Rands Staff and the codeowner, and there is a broad consensus that both gens of BF need some set twitching and updating. Re: Gen8 BF, there are no solid planifications for it, we'll have to wait for the formats to stabilize (I see u, DPP remakes).

Regarding the Monotype issue, we hear and agree that battles decided on team preview should be a no go on a randomized format, since ofc you can't even choose your team and all becomes just exhausting and negative. Atm, tho, we don't think that the first measure should be cutting out a whole section of the format, specially because the premise of it is having every official Smogon singles format.

Let me intentionally take a repeated critic to the current BF Monotype state from the three great players here:

# of sets per mon:
(...)
My guess (not a Monotype player) is that these sets are split between Ground and Dragon type teams, but I haven't noticed any distinction in practice. In any case, it makes it incredibly difficult to actually know what the Garchomp in front of you is gonna do. Is it going to Mega and tank your +1 Psychic? Is it going to Z-Fire and take out your Skarmory? Is it going to dodge your attack from random Sand Veil? All of this contributes to the general variance experienced in Monotype in BF.

There's also the important note that Monotype Random Battle already exists. Of course, BF is different to regular random battles because the sets are pre-made rather than semi-random. However, Wigglytuff provides a good example of how Monotype tends to have more sets per Pokémon than other BF formats, and I think most Monotype Random Battles players would say that monorands is superior to the version of it in BF anyway.

In monotype on battle factory though, its like "here, make the best of it". Which is part of the challenge yes, but when it comes to monotype, especially between two high ladder players on an unfavorable MU, the one with the bad hand has to wait until the other person messes up. Which most of the times is a hopeless wait and does in no way really showcase skill.

I know the same sentiments can be said of any random format, that there is more "luck" than skill especially dependent on what mons were given to the players, but monotype just sets itself different as in my opinion, the luck gained here can clearly outweigh the skill you bring most of the time.

Although the only issue presented on this thread isn't sets, but MUs as a whole, I think (and this is a personal suggestion, not accorded nor decided to implement with the codeowner) that a first step on trying to "fix" monotype, to make it more fair and playable, could be refactoring it's sets. i.e. aiming to (a) lower the number of possible sets rolled, reducing variance, and (b) priorizing to keep sets with better coverage, cutting the too-team-dependant sets that may become fodder on bad MUs. I believe this sounds like a feasible "first aid" measure.

What do you think, could (a) and (b) change enough the dynamics of MonoBF to make it "playable"? Ofc, in the future i'd love to see all sets revamped and updated, but does this sound as a good first try? Would you like to suggest another approach on (or besides) set changes?

 

[Wigglytuff]

For the sake of transparency, I want to note that I've linked this thread in and solicited the opinions of an unofficial Monotype community and also made sure that one of the Monotype TLs is aware of the thread.

Atm, tho, we don't think that the first measure should be cutting out a whole section of the format, specially because the premise of it is having every official Smogon singles format.

The thing with this is that a distinction is being drawn between singles and doubles because yes, obviously there is a clear and objective difference between singles and doubles. However, I would argue that there is also a clear and objective difference between Same Type Clause and no Same Type Clause. It is not apparent to me that Monotype should be automatically grouped in with the other singles tiers; there is enough of a difference that such a move needs to be justified.

You're probably wondering what I think about LC then, because there's also a clear and objective difference between Lvl 100 and Lvl 5. I would actually argue that many players would say that LC also has a high amount of variance. However, the difference is that the variance is more reliant on who makes 1 (one) (really it only takes one, usually) hard read in the game rather than who rolls the right matchup. That is something that players can work with.

Although the only issue presented on this thread isn't sets, but MUs as a whole, I think (and this is a personal suggestion, not accorded nor decided to implement with the codeowner) that a first step on trying to "fix" monotype, to make it more fair and playable, could be refactoring it's sets. i.e. aiming to (a) lower the number of possible sets rolled, reducing variance, and (b) priorizing to keep sets with better coverage, cutting the too-team-dependant sets that may become fodder on bad MUs. I believe this sounds like a feasible "first aid" measure.

What do you think, could (a) and (b) change enough the dynamics of MonoBF to make it "playable"? Ofc, in the future i'd love to see all sets revamped and updated, but does this sound as a good first try? Would you like to suggest another approach on (or besides) set changes?

This is a point brought up by members of the Monotype community. Some sets are meant for certain types (no Giga Drain on Mega Venusaur is bad on Poison but fine on Grass), but the team generation algorithm doesn't distinguish between these. They also believe that certain mons should be taken out (and apparently were added against their will), such as Mega-Audino, which does nothing in any game ever.

My response to this is that modifying the sets could certainly improve things, but the ultimate reality that you can pull Ice vs Fire or Dragon vs Fairy will always remain, and no amount of set changes will change the fact that those are simply unwinnable/unlosable matchups. And we don't pick what type we pull. I would also like to note the Electric vs Electric example in the OP, which you might presume to be a more even matchup, where the game more or less comes down to Webs vs No Webs. Is there a rational set modification that would address the fact that not all Electric teams will pull webs, but the ones that do will almost certainly win when against another Electric team that doesn't?

That's not to say that I want a metagame where there will never be 100-0 matchups - let's not be ridiculous, that doesn't happen in any of the BF tiers. However, I believe that, regardless of whatever changes are made, Mono will continue to pull overwhelmingly unfair matchups a majority of the time. There's just too much importance on the typing of your and your opponent's mons and too much reliance on niche sets to handle unfavorable matchups for a random number generator to effectively handle it. You would have to nerf everything that's remotely good to flatten the strength of mons, and at that point you have to ask if what you're playing is even Monotype.

Monotype should be removed from BF for the time being and readded at a later time once it can be shown to be as competitive as the other singles tiers in BF. I understand that there's not much attention on this thread because BF players don't really go on Smogon and the Randbats subforum is pretty hidden to those that do. I will continue to get the opinions of top ladderers in Gen 7 BF, but I promise you that every single one of them rolls their eyes when they pull BF during an intense laddering session.

 

[Wigglytuff]

I will continue to get the opinions of top ladderers in Gen 7 BF

re: this

Some of the people I ask don't want to make a Smogon account to post, so instead I'll post their thoughts from the battle chat/PMs.

My methodology is /ranking every single person I play, and if they have a GXE of above 82% (in line with the standard requisite GXE to participate in suspect tests in Smogon) I ask them 3 questions:
1: Are you interested in giving your opinions about the possible removal of Monotype in Battle Factory?
2: Do you think Monotype rolls overwhelmingly unfair matchups? (Overwhelmingly unfair being that there is no real chance someone with the bad matchup can win)
3: If yes, about what % of your Monotype games are those? Would you say above 50% or below 50%?
4: Is this % significantly lower or higher compared to the other tiers?

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xomdlo

(didnt get the last question on this one, apologies)

"""wiggleetuff"""

4G3NC DomVIII

Salazzle to Rank1

Shabbeaugosse

user declined to answer the standardized questions
"its just common sense"

blitzburgh

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlefactory-1403972044-y5dogqkp0j9awvygof5x7ha0ef0aq0rpw
(user disconnected shortly after the above screenshot)

michews

i got the entire conversation here because there seemed to be some confusion about whether this would apply to monorands and because their opinion didnt make sense (they'd be fine with removing monotype but think monotype isn't actually worse than the other tiers?), normally i wouldn't go so far as to clarify peoples opinion

glasses-kun/BX

gregante

BlondeSasukeUchiha

standard gen8

'

mahiro1

DnB

player was in a hurry and might leave their thoughts as a reply to the thread later

The top of the ladder is made up almost exclusively of people that are above 82% GXE so hopefully I can get a lot of opinions in here. Obviously I won't ask known alts twice. Please speak up in the thread if you see something problematic about my methodology.

 

[hoplitejoe]

Yo,
I also play waaaay too much battle factory, mostly as Marlingl, where I'm normally somewhere in the top 10.

It's pretty commonly held that monotype sucks in battlefactory. Being a quietish ladder, a rough matchup can really sting around the top of the ladder as most of the time you're gonna be playing vs people much lower than you, meaning you could drop 30 points from a loss. Some of this is inherent to the format of the tier, sometimes you will get matchups you just can't play your way out of, but this does feel much more common on monotype.

So the next question is why are the games more often unbalanced in monotype? The amount of sets, and the varying quality of those sets are definitely an issue, but I quite often can call a game before seeing my oppos sets, based on what mons we have. I'm more inclined to think it's due to team building in monotype. In most formats you build for prominent threats within a tier ie. in sm OU do I have a suitable ash gren check (or three). Once you randomise the team building, while you can no longer guarantee checking these mons, it's also not an issue because the threats are also randomised. Compare this to monotype, where while you do need to cover threats, you also need to cover typings. Unlike in other tiers, the need to cover these doesn't go away once you randomise the mons you face, and you may just end up with no gameplan vs a certain typing.

I've only ever played a little monotype, so I may be off on how it's best to build for it. I do lean towards Monotype is just not going to work well in battle factory even after fiddling with sets.

That said, I would be up with seeing improvements to what we have rather than removal, as monotype has always been a part of gen 7 battle factory. I would like it not to be in for gen 8 though, whenever it happens.

 

[Blitzburgh]

I 100% agree with this thread. I started playing bf probably 2 months ago and have really enjoyed it as a fun tier to play and have been consistently getting to top 10 on ladder. It is quite annoying though when you are working really hard to gain 10 pts every time you win on high ladder and then get a brutal monotype mu and lose 40 pts in one game.

 

[Wigglytuff]

I know the sample size we're working with is rather small, but I think the overlying consensus is pretty clear with about 10 responses indicating that Monotype in BF is clearly more matchup based than the other tiers and all but one agreeing that Monotype pulls unwinnable matchups more often than not. Of course, I'll continue to gather other opinions but I highly doubt you would get anything different from the opinions we see here.

I want to address a common thread I've seen amongst those that aren't as adamant on removal.

Atm, tho, we don't think that the first measure should be cutting out a whole section of the format, specially because the premise of it is having every official Smogon singles format.

we should regulate out the super unwinnable type matchups - see salazzle to rank1's thoughts

That said, I would be up with seeing improvements to what we have rather than removal, as monotype has always been a part of gen 7 battle factory. I would like it not to be in for gen 8 though, whenever it happens.

The general sentiment is that we should look into possible improvements first before we consider removal.

I would not have made the suggestion to remove Monotype if I thought there was a viable chance for improvements to make Monotype as competitive as the other singles tiers in BF. I don't, though that doesn't mean I'm opposed to contributing to such an endeavor. But, how much sense does it make to try to make improvements in a situation where
1) ladder is dead so we can't see if the improvements we make even do anything
2) even if the ladder wasn't dead, you have a 1/8 chance of pulling monotype so how do you even test if your improvements are improving anything
3) the dev (as far as im aware) is not awfully concerned with improving gen 7 battle factory and is probably going to be more focused on the upcoming gen 8 battle factory release after BDSP drop
?

I have a lot of respect for the people that I quoted (that's why I solicited their opinions) but I just don't think it makes sense to try to keep Monotype in BF when the overwhelming unfairness is this apparent and the rate at which we can improve things is so slow. It would be much more prudent to remove Monotype from BF, add it into a separate format, and have it tested by the best Battle Factory players. As stated before, I'd be willing to participate in such an endeavor. However, I really cannot agree that anything can possibly come out of drip feeding improvements to the existing BF and see this defense as a diplomatic attempt to keep the status quo with no justification as to why we (bf players) should have to continually deal with such lopsided matchups.

I would like to ask for a timeframe from the people in control of what happens to BF. I think we've received about as many opinions as we ever will - though I'll still keep trying to get more despite my limited availability - and the Monotype community has had ample time and warning to object to this. In fact, this is what one of the Monotype leaders had to say when I approached him directly:

so clearly they're also in agreement that something is not working in Mono for BF.

 

[DnB]

agree with the monotype ban, it feels like the worst tier to get when playing gen7BF, everything else has already been said

by removing it, we could add another tier tho: SM ZU
i played it a lot when it was current gen and i have to say: this meta is soo good. would be a lot of fun to have in battle factory :)

also, i would like to see the removal of certain mons, mainly gothitelle from ubers, or at least change the set from the PP stall one to something else. it just feels like a dead weight most of the time, and in the situations where it is good, you know that you will spend the next 10 minutes just clicking rest & confide, which is not fun for both players. i feel like the removal of this mon alone would make the whole battle factory experience


also, is there some support for other old gen battle factory tiers? gen 6 BF is already implemented in friendly challenges, would love to see a ladder for it.
and maybe some guys are down to create sets for gen 1-5 battle factory, would love to play those too and i would support this for sure :)

 

[Wigglytuff]

I spoke with Monotype Tier Leader Zap about his thoughts on this thread and Monotype in Battle Factory. We're in agreement that there's certainly a lot to be improved, and with his expertise in Monotype, he was able to inform me of some potential fixes that I hadn't previously thought of.

The last time I posted in this thread, I was skeptical about the capability to improve Monotype in BF. After hearing Zap's (and other Monotype mainers') suggestions, I am now cautiously optimistic. However, like everything on PS, changes cannot be made without a developer. I was informed that the dev for BF is Kris.

I am asking PS and Rands Leadership: in light of the overwhelming community support for removal or improvement of Monotype in Battle Factory (see my post containing several opinions of battle factory players not part of smogon and the above posts), if there is any plan to update or modify Battle Factory with respect to Monotype. Virtually everyone has been burned enough to want flat out removal, and even the few that didn't believe that Monotype is significantly behind the other tiers in terms of competition. Everyone wants to see the situation improved.

I am also offering my help. I reached out to rands staff following the SM UU Quagsire ban to request an update for Quagsire to be removed from the UU pool since it's literally not UU. It's been a couple months and I do believe I was stalled to death by a Quagsire a couple days ago. Is the issue a lack of dev resources?

Over two weeks ago, I made the following promises to a rands staff member acting as liaison between me and whoever is deciding whether changes will be made (seriously, who are these people? and why are they not addressing the complaints publicly?) and to Zap a couple of hours ago, and I am now ready to commit them to the public. If PS Leadership allows me to, I am willing to:
1) be in active contact/create a community of the most experienced battle factory players
2) include monotype auth in said community/contact
3) if ps auth are not willing to set up a separate format for just monotype on the main server, set up a server and do that
4) take the suggestions for improving monotype from the community and implement them in code
5) find and utilize as close to an objective gauge for improvement as possible
6) be willing to discuss the reimplementation of monotype if it can be brought up to the same standards of competition as the other tiers

I have experience working with code from the Randbats Movepool Spreadsheets and the Randbats Calc that I created and also from the real life lab that I work with. I am a top and active battle factory player and I'm in contact with other experienced battle factory players. I am in a monotype jerk. I have a fantastic track record as a contributor, from both my time in the Rands Auth and all the other things I do around this site. I am well positioned to realize all of the promises made above. I must ask if the same capability is present in the current configuration.

My one stipulation, if allowed to take point on this, is that Monotype is removed. A large sample of players have expressed discontent with it at present, and it makes no sense to require them to play it through the incredibly arduous process of improving something with a random number generator.

I have presented this proposal to Mono TL Zap and he supports this course of action. There are more than one current Rands Staff Members who have privately expressed agreement with my thread and are frustrated at the glacial pace of things. I myself question what the hold up is; it seems pretty simple to me. If there are plans to improve Battle Factory, announce them. If not, why wouldn't you accept the help of a proven contributor who is willing to take all measures to provide a better product?

Tagging Kris (dev) Aeonic (ps admin) Irpachuza (rands staff) teal6 (head TD) for answers.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

I spoke with Monotype Tier Leader Zap about his thoughts on this thread and Monotype in Battle Factory. We're in agreement that there's certainly a lot to be improved, and with his expertise in Monotype, he was able to inform me of some potential fixes that I hadn't previously thought of.

The last time I posted in this thread, I was skeptical about the capability to improve Monotype in BF. After hearing Zap's (and other Monotype mainers') suggestions, I am now cautiously optimistic. However, like everything on PS, changes cannot be made without a developer. I was informed that the dev for BF is Kris.

I am asking PS and Rands Leadership: in light of the overwhelming community support for removal or improvement of Monotype in Battle Factory (see my post containing several opinions of battle factory players not part of smogon and the above posts), if there is any plan to update or modify Battle Factory with respect to Monotype. Virtually everyone has been burned enough to want flat out removal, and even the few that didn't believe that Monotype is significantly behind the other tiers in terms of competition. Everyone wants to see the situation improved.

I am also offering my help. I reached out to rands staff following the SM UU Quagsire ban to request an update for Quagsire to be removed from the UU pool since it's literally not UU. It's been a couple months and I do believe I was stalled to death by a Quagsire a couple days ago. Is the issue a lack of dev resources?

Over two weeks ago, I made the following promises to a rands staff member acting as liaison between me and whoever is deciding whether changes will be made (seriously, who are these people? and why are they not addressing the complaints publicly?) and to Zap a couple of hours ago, and I am now ready to commit them to the public. If PS Leadership allows me to, I am willing to:
1) be in active contact/create a community of the most experienced battle factory players
2) include monotype auth in said community/contact
3) if ps auth are not willing to set up a separate format for just monotype on the main server, set up a server and do that
4) take the suggestions for improving monotype from the community and implement them in code
5) find and utilize as close to an objective gauge for improvement as possible
6) be willing to discuss the reimplementation of monotype if it can be brought up to the same standards of competition as the other tiers

I have experience working with code from the Randbats Movepool Spreadsheets and the Randbats Calc that I created and also from the real life lab that I work with. I am a top and active battle factory player and I'm in contact with other experienced battle factory players. I am in a monotype jerk. I have a fantastic track record as a contributor, from both my time in the Rands Auth and all the other things I do around this site. I am well positioned to realize all of the promises made above. I must ask if the same capability is present in the current configuration.

My one stipulation, if allowed to take point on this, is that Monotype is removed. A large sample of players have expressed discontent with it at present, and it makes no sense to require them to play it through the incredibly arduous process of improving something with a random number generator.

I have presented this proposal to Mono TL Zap and he supports this course of action. There are more than one current Rands Staff Members who have privately expressed agreement with my thread and are frustrated at the glacial pace of things. I myself question what the hold up is; it seems pretty simple to me. If there are plans to improve Battle Factory, announce them. If not, why wouldn't you accept the help of a proven contributor who is willing to take all measures to provide a better product?

Tagging Kris (dev) Aeonic (ps admin) Irpachuza (rands staff) teal6 (head TD) for answers.

Paths moving forward have been discussed at length among the room owners of the Random Battles room and any solution to this will take time and manpower that is currently in short supply but will be more prevalent in the future, as several of us plan to actively help out the efforts with the future development of battle factory formats. Please be patient for both improvements to gen 7 battle factory and other randomized formats. We would appreciate not having further mass tags until this point. Limit it to discussion for now. The action will come.

 

[Annika]

Hi, I'm the head programmer and code owner of randomized formats. I will note that I don't play competitive Pokémon much; I prefer programming to playing when it comes to Pokémon.

Personally, I don't think that it makes sense to include Monotype in the normal Battle Factory rotation; the other tiers all have similar rules, differing primarily by which Pokémon are allowed to be used, while Monotype restricts team composition in a fundamentally different way. However, I don't have anything against the concept of battles with randomized teams of Monotype-viable sets adhering to Same Type Clause.

Reading this discussion, it seems like the main issue that competitive Battle Factory players have with Monotype is that it can have unfair matchups which make Battle Factory ratings less accurate (since they are more affected by luck). I think that's a reasonable complaint, although my objection to Monotype in Battle Factory is from a more philosophical standpoint.

Going forward, I am going to remove Monotype sets from [Gen 7] Battle Factory, but also add a separate [Gen 7] Monotype Battle Factory ladderable format specifically for the Monotype-viable Battle Factory sets. As with any new ladder format, if this new format proves to be unpopular, it will be made challenge-only.