Moltres (QC 3/3)

[Delko]

Moltres

The Phoenix has returned. Although it didn't get much new in gen 5, it can still a dangerous pokemon in UU.

Status: Skeleton
QC approvals: PK Gaming, Oglemi, Snunch

[Set]
name: SubRoost Staller
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Roost
move 3: Toxic / Will-o-wisp
move 4: Flamethrower / Air Slash
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe

[Set Comments]
- Moltres has good defensive typing and decent natural bulk, on top of that it also has a good stall ability; Pressure.
- Substitute and Roost keep Moltres healthy and status free.
- Toxic or Will-o-wisp are 2 great status move. Toxic will force more switches as the residual damage builds up faster, but Will-o-wisp also cripples physical attackers.
- When using Will-o-wisp as a status move, you can use Air Slash as the offensive moves so you're not walled by Flash Fire pokes.

[Additional Comments]
- Again, spinner is preferred due to the Stealth Rocks weakness.
- This set is effective with entry hazards set up, Donphan can set up Stealth Rock as well as Spin them away.

[Set]
name: Life Orb Sweeper
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
- Moltres is capable of plowing through unprepared team due to it's great STAB moves, great move coverage and decent bulk.
- Fire Blast and Air Slash for STAB, and Hidden Power Grass for coverage.
- Roost is for more durability while Flame Charge boosts Moltres' Speed.
- Life Orb give Moltres a big power boost, but if you choose Flame Charge over Roost, then you might consider Leftovers for the extra bit of recovery.

[Additional Comments]
- A spinner is preferred due to Moltres' 4X Stealth Rocks weakness.
- Chansey walls this set endlessly, therefor Hitmontop makes a great partner, as it can spin + scare off Chansey
- Alternatively, something that can prevent the set up of Stealth Rocks also makes good teammate, Taunt Ambipom or Magic Bounce Espeon do this well.
- Flame Charge (or even Agility) can be used over Roost to increase Moltres' speed a little.

[Set]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: U-turn
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
- Choice Specs Moltres is extremely powerful and will deal a hefty amount of damage to everything that dares switching in.
- Fire Blast and Air Slash for STAB, and Hidden Power Grass for coverage.
- U-turn will prevent Chansey from recovering of the entry hazards damage.

[Additional Comments]
- A spinner is preferred due to Moltres' 4X Stealth Rocks weakness, Donphan or Hitmontop are perfect partners.
- Entry hazards will prevent anything from switching in safely, and helps withering down Chansey and other special walls like Snorlax.
- Overheat can be used instead of Fire Blast for more power and slightly accuracy, you should make sure it's safe to switch however.
- A similar set is possible with a Choice Scarf.

 

[Delko]

Skeleton is done.
Any ideas about the sets?

 

[ParaChomp]

I would add Overheat to the choice set, 2 Overheats might be less powerful than 2 Fire Blasts but if it makes the foe faint, they'd obviously switch out to something with a fire resistance. Some people might want to hit a bit harder with U-turn making Naive / Rash nature and 4 Attack EVs an idea. Specs on the choice set? A mixed set?

Here's a support set (though I don't think it's such a good idea):

name: Support
move 1: Roost
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: U-turn / Roar
move 4: Tailwind / Sky Drop / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Max HP and Speed to strike first and for bulk. Roost to heal off damage and Will-O-Wisp to burn the foe. Tailwind support for the team coupled with U-turn is a good combo. Roar can be used with entry hazard support and an attempt to burn your foe's entire team. Sky Drop might seem like an bad choice but in this situation, it could be useful. You take the foe up with you were they receive damage from their burn and Moltres restores its health with Leftovers.

I still don't think this set will do that well but I think it's worth trying.

 

[Rakan]

Is Choice Specs worth a mention?

 

[Moo]

You need to mention Chansey on like.... every set, because it walls Moltres all day. This can also exploit Moltres' massive weakness to Stealth Rock, because Chansey will definetily force Moltres so switch out. Mention Hitmontop in particular, because it is a spinner which also threatens Chansey.

Xatu is cool too, because it nips the problem in the bud by reflecting Stealth Rock. This also helps Moltres offensively.

The SubRoost set is outclassed by Zapdos, which is faster, and is only 2x weak to Stealth Rock.

 

[zdrup15]

You need to mention Chansey on like.... every set, because it walls Moltres all day. This can also exploit Moltres' massive weakness to Stealth Rock, because Chansey will definetily force Moltres so switch out. Mention Hitmontop in particular, because it is a spinner which also threatens Chansey.

Xatu is cool too, because it nips the problem in the bud by reflecting Stealth Rock. This also helps Moltres offensively.

The SubRoost set is outclassed by Zapdos, which is faster, and is only 2x weak to Stealth Rock.

SubRoost is still viable with Flamethrower being a good boost against Shaymin, Celebi, Registeel and Cobalion. Sure, SR weakness sucks but pair it with Espeon or Donphan.

 

[prem]

are choice sets even viable on something with a x4 rocks weakness. it seems like it just needs too much support to pull of. im not saying it cant be used but i think it should only go into OO. i mean what if they kill your spinner and or magic bounce user, then you will get 1 or 2 switch ins max

 

[Moo]

Not really sure about Choice sets tbh. I might give it a try and let you know

 

[Delko]

Updated the OP!

Thanks for the feedback ^^

 

[Quilph]

About a week ago, in the interest of mixing things up a bit from my old OU team and incorporating weather into a team somehow, I brought Moltres on board and came up with this set. Bear in mind that I have used this only in the OU tier, so it has been tailored to handle that level of play. I've tried to be as comprehensive as possible so that others can determine which aspects are worth mentioning in the final analysis.

name: Sunny Sweeper
move 1: Agility
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: SolarBeam
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Ground
item: Lum Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Set Comments

As the set name implies, this is intended to be a sweeper, but for it to reach its absolute potential the sun must be out. This means that Ninetales will be a necessary teammate in every case. First, though, Moltres must find a safe opportunity to enter the fray and use Agility, as its base speed is simply not good enough on its own. Fire Blast reaches a base power of 270 when used by a fire Pokemon in the sun, and the slight inaccuracy that comes with it is more than made up for its incredible power. There are very few Pokemon that will not be roundly immolated, and OHKOed, by Moltres's Fire Blast if they are not immune or resistant to it. SolarBeam is the second essential component of this set as it handily dispatches water-based opponents, whose water moves are already halved in power due to sun. Being able to blast off a 120 power grass move with impunity is no laughing matter. Finally, Hidden Power Ice takes care of dragons, especially those who sport a x4 ice weakness, and who would otherwise cause Moltres serious problems.

Hidden Power Ground is a far more situational option which is arguably inferior, and it receives mention for one reason only: Heatran. The volcanic beast is the very best counter that exists against Moltres, bar none, as Flash Fire variants are immune to fire and Heatran double resists SolarBeam. Hidden Power Ice, obviously, is even more useless against him. Should Heatran get a fire boost, Moltres, and potentially the rest of the team, is placed in extreme peril with the sun shining. Hidden Power Ground is generally a 2HKO, which is the best Moltres can do about Heatran.

The given EVs provide Moltres with the highest Special Attack it can inherently obtain, which is essential to score OHKOs against the opposition. Thus, every set should run a Modest nature. Timid is unnecessary because, after a single Agility, Moltres outspeeds the entire metagame, even outspeeding Deoxys-S. At first blush the maximized Speed investment may seem excessive, but Moltres needs to be able to go faster than scarfed Heracross or Garchomp who will annihilate it with Stone Edge to maintain its sweep.

Concerning the item choice, the Lum Berry is listed so that Pokemon with Prankster, who have priority to inflict Moltres with a status condition, are much less problematic. Getting hit with any sort of status move is the surest way to shut down a sweeper, a possibility which must be countered at all costs. A Power Herb ensures that Moltres will not get trapped by SolarBeam, as mentioned below, and a Life Orb is a viable option for added power, but only if Stealth Rock has been cleared.

Other Options

Air Slash is an excellent STAB move in general, but Fire Blast remains the best option to deal with Fighting types as it will be more powerful. Its most valuable characteristic is the flinch rate, and for some Pokemon, especially Latios who is not OHKOed by Hidden Power Ice, scoring a flinch is the only way Moltres can muscle past them without taking damage. Roost is an excellent option for healing, particularly Stealth Rock damage, but when used as a sweeper Moltres can ill afford to let up on the attacks, and it also decreases Moltres's coverage potential.

Counters and Support Options

Tyranitar, and to a lesser extent Hippowdon, are also solid counters to Moltres as they nullify the sun and, in Tyranitar's case, get a Sp. Def. boost. Additionally, if Moltres is trapped into using SolarBeam prior to a Sand Stream user appearing, it will be forced to remain on the field as SolarBeam becomes a two-turn attack with its power halved, putting it in an extremely vulnerable position.

Blissey, the classic bane of special attackers, remains just as troublesome as ever. She is only 3HKOed by Fire Blast in the sun most of the time. If Air Slash users get enough flinches Blissey can be defeated, but this very difficult to accomplish. Eviolite Chansey are similarly, if not more, bothersome.

It is well-known that Moltres possesses a hideous weakness to rock attacks, so rapid spin support is essential. Alternately, one could utilize either Espeon or Xatu's Magic Bounce to reflect back Stealth Rock when encountering Pokemon known for setting them up. As mentioned, Ninetales is necessary for the set to reach its full potential, so it is often necessary to keep Ninetales alive until the opponent's weather users have been defeated. Moltres is best used a late-game sweeper for this reason. Scouts such as Staraptor can help find out if the opponent has any of the above notable counters on their team.

Dream World

In the Dream World, Moltres gets Flame Body, which has a 30% chance to burn an opponent who uses physical attacks. Moltres can rarely afford to take such damage, but Flame Body is far more useful than Pressure, which only comes into play on stall sets. Moltres can often cause real trouble by switching into common Fake Out leads like Mienshao or Ambipom, who become quite useless should they get burned.

 

[Delko]

Unfortunatly, permaweather in the form of sun is banned from UU, so that set will not be as effective as you might think.

 

[Quilph]

You're quite right that the above strategy is impossible in UU, which is why I have been using the set in OU. Though Moltres may belong to the former tier, his usage is obviously permitted in higher tiers so I believe my analysis still has relevance.

 

[Oglemi]

If it's a set that's only for OU, than your argument belongs in the OU sub-forum. That has literally no relevance to the UU sub-forum even though Moltres is an UU Pokemon.

 

[Fireburn]

You could just slash Agility on the LO set over Flame Charge since it provides more of a Speed boost, I don't even understand why Flame Charge is on that set anyway when you can just use Agility. :/

 

[Delko]

Yeah, tbh I think about removing Flame Charge altogether.
During the time I tested Moltres the speed boost hardly came in handy. Things that beat Moltres are slower anyway (most of the time) and Roost is way more appreciated.

 

[Oglemi]

OK

- imo the set order should be SubRoost > LO

- get rid of Scarf. It's sorely outclassed by Victini, it's walled too hard by bulky Waters, Arcanine, Zapdos, and Chansey (you have to have God-like prediction to beat any of them), and it has that massive Stealth Rock weakness to be much use. It's also outpaced by a lot of common Scarf users, such as Staraptor and Flygon. I honestly don't see it working.

- Get rid of the Flame Charge slash on the LO set and just mention it in AC.

 

[Delko]

Okay, done.
Any more suggestion or can I start writting?

 

[breh]

what is the reasoning behind the ev spread of the subroost set?

 

[Delko]

what is the reasoning behind the ev spread of the subroost set?

Uneven HP EV's so it can switch into SR twice without dying, enough speed to outspeed base 80's and the rest is dumped in Defense.

 

[breh]

The only thing speed investment can really let you beat is Heracross, Deoxys-D, Mamoswine, and Honchkrow. I don't really feel that running enough to beat anything but Deoxys-D is really that vital, though.

IMO, put the speed in Def, make the leftover effort values SpA, and mention in AC that more speed can be run to outrun Deoxys-D (I believe this is the way that speed creep was supposed to be dealt with).

 

[PK Gaming]

Looking good Phoenix'

QC APPROVED (1/3)

 

[Oglemi]

Burn baby burn

QC 2/3

 

[Delko]

Another stamp please ^^

 

[prem]

get rid of the skeleton tag. it detracts qc people. god delko....

 

[Delko]

Cause you asked so nicely ^^