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Middle Cup
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
- Status
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4- Def Marill: 73-87 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
We really needed this last generation. Marill is arguably the best switch-in to Combusken right now, even more so than Lampent, seeing that it doesn't even fear a stray Shadow Claw (which would otherwise OHKO Lampent). Marill also has some unique utility in its ability to switch-in to most Dragon-types without fearing much in terms of damage (Gabite's Earthquake is an issue however).
Admittedly, I overlooked Marill as a quality Fairy-type in Middle Cup. However, I feel that it's safe to say that it along with Togetic are the best members of that type in this metagame.
We really needed this last generation. Marill is arguably the best switch-in to Combusken right now, even more so than Lampent, seeing that it doesn't even fear a stray Shadow Claw (which would otherwise OHKO Lampent). Marill also has some unique utility in its ability to switch-in to most Dragon-types without fearing much in terms of damage (Gabite's Earthquake is an issue however).
Admittedly, I overlooked Marill as a quality Fairy-type in Middle Cup. However, I feel that it's safe to say that it along with Togetic are the best members of that type in this metagame.
Yeah, I used Marill a lot and I think bulky CB is its best set atm, to run enough speed to outpace stuff like Duslops. I used max speed BD a little bit and it's pretty good, since most of the meta that outspeeds it is destroyed by +6 Aqua Jet.
This part bugs me, and I feel something needs to be said about it. If one were to ever use a Belly Drum Marill, max speed is not how to do it. Once set up, you'll typically be using Aqua Jet, and priority isn't relatively common in this metagame. Speed is not an issue for Marill. Instead, max out its HP in order to beef up its survivability. Marill will play a lot like Azumarill does in OU - using as much bulk and power to muscle through its opposition. Marill won't find much time to use Play Rough or Superpower unless it naturally gets the jump on that Pokemon. Anything faster really won't need much more than an Aqua Jet.
Here's some calculations I did against some switch-ins to Marill / Aqua Jet resists and how they fare against a +6 Aqua Jet (while switching in):
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dusclops: 94-112 (63.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marill: 100-118 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Croconaw: 79-93 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Porygon2: 108-127 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sliggoo: 96-114 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wartortle: 49-58 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Lombre: 46-54 (33.8 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dragonair: 55-66 (32.7 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 49-58 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swadloon: 46-54 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sealeo: 54-63 (27.4 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quilladin: 45-53 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 43.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 42-51 (24.4 - 29.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marill: 100-118 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Croconaw: 79-93 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Porygon2: 108-127 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sliggoo: 96-114 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wartortle: 49-58 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Lombre: 46-54 (33.8 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dragonair: 55-66 (32.7 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 49-58 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swadloon: 46-54 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sealeo: 54-63 (27.4 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quilladin: 45-53 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 43.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 42-51 (24.4 - 29.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So here lie some of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier mixed with anything that resists Aqua Jet. There is very little in this tier that really wants to mess around with that Aqua Jet once set up outside of the bottom seven Pokemon on that list, and one of which isn't even remotely viable in Middle Cup. Also, do note that three of the Pokemon in those calculations are Dragon-type, and should never switch in on Marill regardless. These calculations support that you're safe enough to just spam Aqua Jet without having to worry about being predicted on the switch. That right there further supports that running any form of a Speed investment on Marill is pretty useless. Marill is slow; it has base 40 Speed. Many of the Pokemon it outspeeds are quickly put down by any of its moves, or aren't worth using in Middle Cup. The Pokemon that tie Marill however, are of no threat to Marill. Other Pokemon at Base 40 Speed include Gurdurr, Lairon, and Eelectrik. Maybe running at most 4 Speed EVs to avoid the tie with Lairon could be considered, but running Max Speed is silly. It doesn't allow Marill to catch any offensive threats it may face, and it's better off invested elsewheres, specifically HP, to beef up Marill and let it take some resisted hits if need be.
You can all thank me later when Marill becomes the #1 threat in Middle Cup once everyone sees that there really isn't anything capable of switching into it once it's set up with Stealth Rock support. I didn't even know it was such a monster until I ran those calculations.
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No one is safe.
Water absorb Poliwhirl and Palpitoad are immune to Aqua Jet and outspeed.
However, neither can take out Marill reliably. Both would do well, though, or one of them and entry hazards.
I did not make up the aim for the horn next time, the ps damagecalc does it.
However, neither can take out Marill reliably. Both would do well, though, or one of them and entry hazards.
252+ Atk Poliwhirl Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marill: 214-252 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwhirl: 629-740 (232.1 - 273%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marill Aqua Jet vs. Water Absorb Poliwhirl: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwhirl: 629-740 (232.1 - 273%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marill Aqua Jet vs. Water Absorb Poliwhirl: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Palpitoad Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Marill: 250-296 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Palpitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Marill: 178-210 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palpitoad: 447-526 (153 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marill Aqua Jet vs. Water Absorb Palpitoad: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Palpitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Marill: 178-210 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palpitoad: 447-526 (153 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marill Aqua Jet vs. Water Absorb Palpitoad: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
I did not make up the aim for the horn next time, the ps damagecalc does it.
Swadloon is the only Pokemon in this metagame with Sticky Web.
On the topic of hazards:
Rapid Spin users
Wartortle
Defog users
Pidgeotto
Golbat
Nuzleaf
Togetic
Vibrava
Prinplup
Staravia
Stealth Rock users
Graveler
Boldore
Piloswine
Pupitar
Lairon
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Rhydon
Chansey
Marshtomp
Metang
Grotle
Monferno
Prinplup
Gabite
Palpitoad
Krokorok
Spikes users
Roselia
Whirlipede
Quilladin
Toxic Spikes users
Nidorina
Nidorino
Roselia
Whirlipede
Frogadier
Sticky Web users
Swadloon
Rapid Spin users
Wartortle
Defog users
Pidgeotto
Golbat
Nuzleaf
Togetic
Vibrava
Prinplup
Staravia
Stealth Rock users
Graveler
Boldore
Piloswine
Pupitar
Lairon
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Rhydon
Chansey
Marshtomp
Metang
Grotle
Monferno
Prinplup
Gabite
Palpitoad
Krokorok
Spikes users
Roselia
Whirlipede
Quilladin
Toxic Spikes users
Nidorina
Nidorino
Roselia
Whirlipede
Frogadier
Sticky Web users
Swadloon
This looks fun, is there an mc ladder on showdown?
I want this to be a thing, I would play it a lot.
One pokemon I think would be interesting is Sliggoo. It has very good Special Stats and three very interesting abilities in Hydration, Sap Sipper, and Gooey. It also learns Draco Meteor which pushes up its viability a lot.
A rain team set up:
Sliggoo @ Choice Specs
Nature: Modest
Ability: Hydration
EV's: +252 HP, +252 Special Attack, +4 SpD
-Draco Meteor
-Sludge Wave
-Ice Beam/Muddy Water
-Thunderbolt
It reaches a special attack of 436 with Specs. I would be excited to try this out!
One pokemon I think would be interesting is Sliggoo. It has very good Special Stats and three very interesting abilities in Hydration, Sap Sipper, and Gooey. It also learns Draco Meteor which pushes up its viability a lot.
A rain team set up:
Sliggoo @ Choice Specs
Nature: Modest
Ability: Hydration
EV's: +252 HP, +252 Special Attack, +4 SpD
-Draco Meteor
-Sludge Wave
-Ice Beam/Muddy Water
-Thunderbolt
It reaches a special attack of 436 with Specs. I would be excited to try this out!
I'm willing to bet that Chansey, Porygon-2 and Combusken are likely to be quite overpowered / centralising, particularly the two normal types, and will probably need to be banned fairly soon after implementation. Don't forget Chansey was banned from UU last generation, and that tier contained powerhouses far stronger than this metagame, like Darmanitan and Mienshao!
Dusclops is the bulkiest thing in MC aside from Chansey and would be difficult to defeat, and Kadabra will be a powerful sweeper. Pikachu with Light Ball is still exceedinly frail but with less walls and less priority users to worry about it will be much more powerful. Rhydon is insane in this meta with incredible bulk and bar-none the highest Attack stat in Middle Cup.
This meta is gonna need a lot of balancing, IMO.
Dusclops is the bulkiest thing in MC aside from Chansey and would be difficult to defeat, and Kadabra will be a powerful sweeper. Pikachu with Light Ball is still exceedinly frail but with less walls and less priority users to worry about it will be much more powerful. Rhydon is insane in this meta with incredible bulk and bar-none the highest Attack stat in Middle Cup.
This meta is gonna need a lot of balancing, IMO.
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Fair enough.
It might be interesting to note that Duosion has the highest Special Attack stat in MC (Base 125) and works well as a Trick Room user with great bulk boosted by Evilite, Recover and either Magic Guard or Regenerator... though by-and-large Kadabra will outclass it with high base speed and will generally have more power thanks to preferring Life Orb over Eviolite.
Golbat is very fast, bulky and strong in MC; 75/70/75 defenses augmented by Eviolite and Roost along with a great defensive typing make it ridiculously hard to wear down; only STAB supereffective attacks from powerful Pokemon such as Kadabra, Piloswine and Sneasel can 2HKO a heavily defensively-invested Golbat, and in the meantime they will have to risk taking moves such as Super-Fang, U-Turn, Brave Bird or Taunt to ruin their plans.
I also reckon Klang is an overlooked threat here; after a Shift Gear, a 252+ Attack / 252 Spe Klang reaches 426 Attack (around the power of a Life Orb Rhydon) and 398 Speed (faster than a +1 positive natured Combusken or almsot any choice scarfer in the tier), not to mention the natural bulk and resistances that his Eviolite and Steel typing provide. Yes some opposing steels and excessively bulky things like Dusclops can tank his Wild Charge / Gear Grind / Return coverage but once its counters are gone, it just has to set up for one turn and then this thing is downright terrifying to face.
It might be interesting to note that Duosion has the highest Special Attack stat in MC (Base 125) and works well as a Trick Room user with great bulk boosted by Evilite, Recover and either Magic Guard or Regenerator... though by-and-large Kadabra will outclass it with high base speed and will generally have more power thanks to preferring Life Orb over Eviolite.
Golbat is very fast, bulky and strong in MC; 75/70/75 defenses augmented by Eviolite and Roost along with a great defensive typing make it ridiculously hard to wear down; only STAB supereffective attacks from powerful Pokemon such as Kadabra, Piloswine and Sneasel can 2HKO a heavily defensively-invested Golbat, and in the meantime they will have to risk taking moves such as Super-Fang, U-Turn, Brave Bird or Taunt to ruin their plans.
I also reckon Klang is an overlooked threat here; after a Shift Gear, a 252+ Attack / 252 Spe Klang reaches 426 Attack (around the power of a Life Orb Rhydon) and 398 Speed (faster than a +1 positive natured Combusken or almsot any choice scarfer in the tier), not to mention the natural bulk and resistances that his Eviolite and Steel typing provide. Yes some opposing steels and excessively bulky things like Dusclops can tank his Wild Charge / Gear Grind / Return coverage but once its counters are gone, it just has to set up for one turn and then this thing is downright terrifying to face.
Heroes and Cons Eviolite is banned.
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
Wherever you want; just challenge someone to a game.
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
You can vote for it to get a ladder here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...onth-month-9-averagemons-m10-noms-up.3481155/
Thank goodness, that will make dealing with Chansey, Dusclops and such a lot easier.
Notably, this means Kadabra is easily better than Duosion since they are both very frail without Eviolite, so Duosion needs trick room to work whereas Kadabra is the joint fastest Pokemon in the tier with Electabuzz.
Magmar seems like it could be a great choice; base 93 speed is pretty damn fast here, and 95/100 offenses are great for mixed attacking sets, epsecially consideirng Magmar's expansive movepool. Fire Blast / Flare Blitz, Thunderpunch, Focus Blast, Hidden Power, Psychic, Cross Chop, and even Mach Punch along with Will-O-Wisp would make it quite a threat IMO, and it certainly has a high BST for Middle Cup. Aside from its poor physical bulk, Magmar would be a difficult thing to deal with for a lot of teams.
I'm still thinking that Combusken will be broken... Speed Boost, Swords Dance and its typing and offenses, along with a great attacking movepool and the option to Baton Pass to another Pokemon just combine to make an overwhelming and almost certainly overcentralising force.
Togetic is, I think, the only Pokemon who can use the combination of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass, and has decent special bulk and a good support movepool including things like Wish, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Roost and Heal Bell. It's stat (especially Speed) aren't anything to write hom about aside from its special Defense, but I'd still consider this a good and highly usable supporter.
Fraxure is a stupidly powerful Dragon Dancer, while Dragonair and Croconaw can also use it to a lesser degree (they both get good priority moves too). Shelgon is an amazingly bulky Dragon Dancer too, and Pupitar gets Dragon Dance along with STAB EdgeQuake coverage.
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
I'm super hyped for this as OM of the month. I'm surprised no mention has been made yet of Pikachu; fast, extremely powerful mixed offenses with Light Ball, Extreme Speed, Volt Switch, Nasty Plot, etc. This mon seems like a force to be reckoned with.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
A meta where Pikachu is viable?!? SIGN ME UP LET'S GET THIS HAPPENING YEAAAAAAAAAH
Assuming PS has updated since last night, this is currently playable on main as challenge only. It will be available to ladder at the start of February.
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