July 14:
[10:07 PM] levi:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3587196/post-8184361
[10:07 PM] levi: i like this post a lot
[10:07 PM] levi: + zebramans finally starting to post :heart_eyes:
[10:23 PM] levi:
fatty idt people have been bringing up missy, dcae did bring up gar which isnt a gr8 comparison either but
[10:23 PM] levi: vulls at 85% in lcpl not 50%
[10:23 PM] fatty: huh
[10:24 PM] fatty: both dcae and zeb brought up bw
[10:24 PM] fatty: the only reason I can see that happening is the connection between a super high usage mon
[10:25 PM] fatty: and my 50% has nothing to do with usage it had to do with why it’s being used, pls reread
[10:25 PM] fatty: I am very much aware it is at 85% usage
[10:25 PM] levi: err am i misunderstanding
[10:26 PM] living so italian: it's amazing that people are comparing missy and vully
[10:26 PM] levi: u said its usage is mostly/at least 50%
[10:26 PM] living so italian: the only thing they have in common is their usage stat really
[10:26 PM] levi: also zebra brought bw in the context of
[10:26 PM] levi: it needing a lot of changes after the fact + people still being unhappy w it
[10:26 PM] levi: which i think is fair
[10:27 PM] fatty: vullabys high usage is very much due to the support it provides
[10:27 PM] fatty: this is what I’m getting at
[10:27 PM] fatty: throwing a percentage in there might not be smart
[10:27 PM] levi: thts fine ya
[10:27 PM] levi: but the 50% is confusing
[10:27 PM] levi: id prob just edit out
[10:28 PM] fatty: I changed
[10:28 PM] levi: :thumbsup:
11:12 PM] fatty: just ban vull already tho
[11:12 PM] fatty: we've seen the movie before
[11:12 PM] fatty: gonna be enough outcry, and if this goes to suspect
[11:13 PM] fatty: its 100% getting banned
[11:16 PM] levi: Ya the outcry is p severe
[11:16 PM] levi: I’d rather do it ASAP
[11:22 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: tbh it seems like the only people that don't want vulla gone are some of the council
[11:24 PM] fatty: id agree, and at that point im not gonna stand in the way of what the community wants
[11:24 PM] fatty: even if i think its a bad idea
[11:24 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think it's a bad idea too, but if that many people really want it, then who knows? Might actually improve the meta? Hard to tell at this point.
[11:25 PM] fatty: i think ur gonna get rid of a powerful mon but also get rid of a mon that helps check a plethora of mons and playstyles in the meta
[11:25 PM] fatty: i dont see the meta being fixed w/ this
[11:25 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I do wanna see how the discussion would pan out
[11:26 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: but I'm afraid that people are just gonna bandwagon and there won't be a balance in the suspect discussion
[11:26 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: which has been my biggest problem with LC suspects this gen
[11:27 PM] fatty: hmm its like u know the lc community
[11:27 PM] ninja: abra suspect was p balanced in thread i think
[11:27 PM] ninja: though idt this would be
[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: everyone is so set in their ways that they don't bother talking about it and just vote
[11:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: which I think for vullaby is really not as clear-cut as people think
[11:28 PM] fatty: ye thats been my point vulla rly is a special case
[11:28 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: People just look at 85 and COVERAGE OPTIONS and start saying the worst
[11:28 PM] fatty: exactly
[11:28 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: that's my fear with suspect
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I'm not blocking it purely because I fear a ban
[11:29 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: it's because I fear an ignorant ban
[11:30 PM] fatty: i dont like how ppl are completely discounting the timing of this and acting like because vulla is now more used than ever
[11:31 PM] fatty: is the reason its ban worthy now
[11:31 PM] tazz: i think the question is when
[11:31 PM] tazz: middle of open or middle of snake
[11:31 PM] fatty: if ur doing this
[11:31 PM] fatty: it needs to be done now
[11:31 PM] tazz: or end of snake
[11:31 PM] fatty: there is no point in doing this after snake
[11:35 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: at the very least doing the suspect now isn't rushing it since we've had a lot of time to think about it
[11:44 PM] levi: yea like meta being stabilized in time is 100% an issue
[11:44 PM] levi: the only way to minimize that is doing it now
[11:44 PM] levi: @ Pre-Existing Conditions if you agree then im gonna start prepping sth for tmrw even
[11:46 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: at this point we don't have a choice
[11:46 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I know some of you don't agree with this, but the community is so overwhelmingly in favour of it that we just have to trust them to actually hold a decent conversation
[11:47 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: on that note, if you guys do feel strongly about keeping vull in the meta, you need to make your voices loud and clear in the thread
[11:47 PM] levi: yea try to make it
[11:48 PM] levi: a two sided discussion at least
1:02 AM] levi: @ everyone any suggestions for the song
[1:31 AM] levi: if i dont receive any suggestions in time then i will pick an anime opening
[1:54 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: do not
[2:13 AM] ninja: sounds good @ levi
[3:02 AM] living so italian: if you pick an anime opening
[3:02 AM] living so italian: I delete the thread
[3:07 AM] living so italian:
[3:56 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Wanting vull gone is absurd
[3:57 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Absolutely not
[3:57 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Also don’t use that song
[3:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions:
[4:00 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity:
[4:00 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: But also don’t do a suspect
[11:00 AM] starmaster: lol
[11:00 AM] starmaster: what the fuck is the point of the council
[11:01 AM] starmaster: that’s so fucking ludicrous
[11:01 AM] starmaster: 2/3rds of the council is against this shit
[11:01 AM] starmaster: wow
[11:04 AM] starmaster: this is like if ou decided to suspect magearna
[11:04 AM] starmaster: Just because the public has been yelling for it for a year
[11:04 AM] starmaster: wow I just have no fucking words if you push this through with 3/9 council supporting
[11:05 AM] starmaster: why does this channel even exist
[11:06 AM] starmaster: maybe 4/9 if you include fatty and tazz but fatty is just legit just bending to the public which is retarded
[11:06 AM] starmaster: no matter what it’s not a majority
[11:07 AM] fatty: I’m not bending lmao I said I know what’s gonna happen
[11:07 AM] fatty: no where did I say let’s have a suspect
[11:08 AM] starmaster: Well I took “let’s ban vull already” to mean let’s have a suspect
[11:08 AM] fatty: and if it was gonna happen there’s no sense in waiting coz that’s even dumber
[11:08 AM] starmaster: but if you’re against it great
[11:08 AM] starmaster: that makes it 3/9
[11:08 AM] starmaster: I’m gonna cause a fucking issue if we have a suspect that 2/3rds of the council is against
[11:08 AM] starmaster: That’s beyond ridiculous
[11:11 AM] fatty: can we get an actual vote from council members
[11:11 AM] fatty: on if they want a vull suspect
[11:11 AM] fatty: coz that’s a super valid point
[11:12 AM] starmaster: I’m p sure everyone bar levi/ninja/tazz has stated they’re against
[11:12 AM] starmaster: but yea it can’t hurt
[11:13 AM] starmaster:
pre-Existing Conditions
Making Boombap Beats On Audacity @living so italian
Kingler12345
[11:13 AM] starmaster: formalities
[11:14 AM] Kingler12345: against a vullaby suspect, lol
[11:16 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: if there's an honest discussion about vullaby and a proper vote then I'd be fine
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: Vullaby is the metagame
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: It’s not a part of the metagame
[11:16 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: It absolutely is
[11:16 AM] fatty: ex fucking actly
[11:17 AM] fatty: ppl aren’t getting what this would do to the meta
[11:19 AM] starmaster: if you don’t think a suspect would happen the way it should then don’t support a suspect
[11:19 AM] starmaster: It’s that simple
[11:24 AM] levi: I mean yea, if 2/3 of you guys vehemently remain against it then there’s not much for me to do
[11:24 AM] levi: But I’m really not a fan of this distrust of the community
[11:24 AM] ninja: i think the suspect would go fine
[11:24 AM] ninja: like abra suspect
[11:24 AM] ninja: had balanced discussed and ended up not being banned
[11:24 AM] levi: I think the users who discuss and post now on discord have improved hugely over the past few years
[11:25 AM] levi: We’re way past the days where blarajan and fitzy72 were our top players
[11:25 AM] living so italian: vullaby is integral to the metagame
[11:26 AM] levi: It’s integral to an unpopular and heavily centralized meta why is this a good thing
[11:26 AM] levi: It’s deffo more unpopular than oras was at its end
[11:27 AM] levi: Oras reputation actually dropped through sm bc of revisionists
[11:27 AM] levi: I don’t know how it was in bw but that’s not exactly the gold standard anyways
[11:27 AM] living so italian: what's that have to do with our current metagame.
[11:27 AM] levi: I’m literally just saying our metagame is bad
[11:27 AM] starmaster: Or it could end up like the trapinch suspect lol
[11:28 AM] levi: And not particularly worth preserving
[11:28 AM] ninja: well
[11:28 AM] ninja: not a single person
[11:28 AM] ninja: posted in defence of pinch
[11:28 AM] levi: Who cares if it’s central to our metagame. Were literally trying to fix this meta
[11:28 AM] starmaster: because people r lazy as shit yea
[11:29 AM] starmaster: (Including myself there)
[11:29 AM] levi: Well there were literally four anti pinch users in total
[11:29 AM] levi: 3 on this council and the last one was serene
[11:29 AM] starmaster: That’s changed since then
[11:29 AM] levi: From what I’ve seen, literally the only regret wrt pinch was that we may have banned the wrong target
[11:30 AM] levi: Not that we shouldn’t have had a suspect
[11:30 AM] starmaster: regardless vull would go the same way
[11:32 AM] fatty: my problem would be community looks at usage and power
[11:32 AM] fatty: to make decisions
[11:32 AM] ninja: just set
[11:32 AM] fatty: I think this goes way beyond that
[11:32 AM] ninja: super high reqs
[11:32 AM] ninja: like 85
[11:32 AM] ninja: or smth
[11:33 AM] ninja: and if there's balanced discussion idt ppl are going to just bandwagon one side
[11:33 AM] levi: From what I know lily and serene are anti-ban too
[11:33 AM] levi: This is only going to be onesided if you guys let it be again
[11:33 AM] starmaster: that’s not true and you know it
[11:35 AM] fatty: ppl are sick of the meta i rly don’t think telling them to stick with the status quo
[11:35 AM] fatty: is a very convincing argument
[11:35 AM] levi: I mean we can go through the pinch voters
[11:36 AM] ninja: there was only
[11:36 AM] ninja: 32 voters for pinch
[11:36 AM] ninja: and theres 6 here + lily serene
[11:36 AM] ninja: thats rleady
[11:36 AM] ninja: 8 who would prob vote no ban?
[11:36 AM] levi: It’s literally just a matter of setting the bar high enough
[11:38 AM] starmaster: has quote voted recently
[11:38 AM] levi: no
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: not for lc
[11:38 AM] levi: i really don't agree w pinch just being the work of a hivemind anyways
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: but I would have voted no ban on most of the recent suspects
[11:38 AM] levi: i'm sure if you asked each and every one of those users they'd be able to arrive at the conclusion on their own
[11:38 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: maye I would have voted ban on pinch, idr
[11:39 AM] starmaster: I’m absolutely sure that’s nonsense
[11:39 AM] starmaster: Ppl just vote with their friends
[11:39 AM] ninja: i dont understand why the pinch suspect is brought up as an example when its entirely the fault of the anti-ban users for not posting anything
[11:39 AM] ninja: well
[11:39 AM] ninja: it still would've gotten banned but
[11:39 AM] ninja: no way it would have been as one sided
[11:39 AM] ninja: if the suspect thread was more than 1 pro ban post that had all of its arguments left entirely unopposed
[11:39 AM] starmaster: the pinch suspect isn’t my reasoning it’s just an example of how lc suspects can be terrible
[11:40 AM] starmaster: I don’t think vull should ever be suspected
[11:40 AM] ninja: the pinch suspect was partly terrible bc of no one anti ban posting anythign
[11:40 AM] starmaster: because 1. High usage isn’t equivalent to broken 2. It literally is the metagame and it’s too late to fix it no matter how optimistic you are
[11:41 AM] levi: i mean u were literally
[11:41 AM] levi: the biggest shaper of the meta last snake
[11:41 AM] levi: pre and post snake metas were hugely different, top level players having incentive to build every week
[11:41 AM] levi: makes a big difference
[11:41 AM] levi: so i don't agree w 2 at all
[11:42 AM] levi: 1 obv isn't true but the numbers are just too absurd, they're not a reason on their own but they're an illustration
[11:42 AM] starmaster: ofc it makes a difference but the fact is little cup has simply terrible hazard control outside of vull
[11:42 AM] levi: when vull has 85% and number 2 has 45%
[11:42 AM] starmaster: so matchup fishing nonsense is encouraged to a ridiculous degree
[11:43 AM] starmaster: and sure usage tells a story but
[11:43 AM] starmaster: lando used to have 75% usage in oras
[11:43 AM] starmaster: Didn’t mean it was ever remotely broken
[11:43 AM] starmaster: Clef has 70% now
[11:43 AM] starmaster: It’s still not banworthy ever
[11:43 AM] fatty: is everyone running z bb
[11:43 AM] levi: yea, theres literally twice as many teams not running clef as not running vull
[11:43 AM] levi: not rlly fatty it's just
[11:44 AM] fatty: from my understanding ppl are mad about z bb
[11:44 AM] levi: actually considered good now
[11:44 AM] starmaster: ,
[11:44 AM] fatty: and vulla havin “no counters”
[11:44 AM] ninja: huh clef is at
[11:44 AM] starmaster: ok fucking ubers then
[11:44 AM] ninja: 44
[11:44 AM] ninja: in wcop
[11:44 AM] levi: so it's +1 to an already v long list of sets
[11:44 AM] starmaster: Pdon has 99% usage
[11:44 AM] levi: well i'm 100% sure
[11:44 AM] levi: pdon would be banned
[11:44 AM] starmaster: It’s still not broken
[11:44 AM] levi: if ubers was a regular tier
[11:44 AM] levi: LOL
[11:44 AM] starmaster: no it wouldn’t
[11:44 AM] starmaster: It literally holds the tier together
[11:44 AM] starmaster: Same as vullaby
[11:44 AM] levi: yea i rlly dont agree w
[11:45 AM] levi: using the same tiering philosophy
[11:45 AM] starmaster: except crazier because it’s ubers
[11:45 AM] levi: as ubers here
[11:45 AM] fatty: ye ubers was a tier for a long time and pdon was considered the glue
[11:46 AM] fatty: like I was just saying in chat I think vull usage is a good thing
[11:46 AM] fatty: for this particular meta
[11:47 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: there's so much dumb shit that would be running around in LC
[11:50 AM] levi: webs and what else
[11:50 AM] levi: does vull seriously keep in check
[11:50 AM] levi: it's like
[11:50 AM] levi: the softest of soft checks
[11:50 AM] levi: for everything else
[11:50 AM] fatty: what
[11:50 AM] levi: snivy and foon?
[11:50 AM] fatty: it checks like everything
[11:51 AM] fatty: it’s a gasbra switch
[11:51 AM] levi: yea, it checks everything but not hugely well
[11:51 AM] fatty: it can check fighters
[11:51 AM] fatty: it doesn’t need to be hugely well lol
[11:51 AM] fatty: if it was amazing at it
[11:51 AM] fatty: yes it would be broken.
[11:51 AM] levi: like gastly and abra can ohko it after rocks
[11:51 AM] fatty: you can tailor to spd vulla
[11:51 AM] levi: the only set you can even include on a team and claim to be marginally less gastbra weak is scarf
[11:51 AM] fatty: are u rly arguing this
[11:51 AM] fatty: I’m done
[11:52 AM] levi: tbolt still
[11:52 AM] levi: ohkoes bj vull after rocks
[11:52 AM] levi: no matter the spread p sure
[11:52 AM] fatty: yes you can tech everything
[11:52 AM] fatty: it doesn’t change the fact that if played right it helps you with a ton of shit
[11:52 AM] fatty: soft or not
[11:52 AM] levi: it's a soft check
[11:52 AM] fatty: to many things
[11:53 AM] levi: i don't think soft checks are as valuable in holding the tier together as glue
[11:53 AM] levi: they'd be much more expendable in teambuilding if they weren't vull and good at everything else as well
[11:53 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: the reason vullaby is a problem now to people is that their ideal meta is one where every mon has a mon you can switch in mostly fearlessly, and you should be allowed to go to it many times throughout the game. this is why we banned pinch and got to a meta where it was ok to bring in onix on vulla without the fear of a trap. but now that hp grass, a tech that was found in mid 2017, is back thats not viable so we must ban it
[11:54 AM] starmaster: you’re just being ridiculous for the sake of it if you’re seriously arguing that vull doesn’t hold the tier together
[11:54 AM] fatty: ye I honestly don’t know what else to say
[11:54 AM] fatty: if u disregard that fact
[11:54 AM] fatty: there’s no argument to be had
[11:54 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: shrug that's honestly what I've been saying for two years now
[11:55 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: well then youve been perceptive
[11:55 AM] levi: huh
[11:56 AM] levi: vull does hold the tier together but i think it does so
[11:56 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: the community as a while has been vastly overrating onix for ages now and it annoys the shit out of me
[11:56 AM] levi: in a pretty ugly way
[11:56 AM] Making Boombap Beats On Audacity: what pinch did was make you admit your own helplessness in some way, the trick was saying "im going to get rocks, die, and pressure the vulla" rather than going "i need this one mon to come in again and again
[11:56 AM] levi: i'd way rather just take chances w whatever comes next
[11:56 AM] levi: than deal w the current iteration of the meta
[11:56 AM] ninja: i think its unhealthily centred around vull
[11:56 AM] ninja: and ya idt onix is rly that good either
[11:56 AM] ninja: but the fact its on 50% of teams
[11:56 AM] ninja: is solely due to vull being overwhelming
[11:56 AM] ninja: bc its the best vull answer
[11:57 AM] levi: shrug idt a pinch suspect is realistic, only a very small portion of the community actually thinks it wasnt broken
[11:57 AM] levi: well pinch cores
[11:58 AM] fatty: what does that even mean, in an ugly way
[11:58 AM] levi: and wanting to have safe switchins to a mon that carries as much utility as vull is fine i think
[11:58 AM] levi: like it's nbd if abra or gast is annoying to switch into bc they bring almost nothing else
[11:59 AM] fatty: if vulla is such a bad soft check
[11:59 AM] fatty: vs let’s say gasbra
[11:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: the impression I get is that people wanna spam foongus mirrors, fighters, and ferropsritz
[11:59 AM] fatty: what’re my checks in a vulless meta
[11:59 AM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and webs for free
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: and gastbra
[12:00 PM] levi: the same as the ones rn
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: oops that's a lot of threats
[12:00 PM] levi: minus one soft check
[12:00 PM] fatty: pawniard and diglett
[12:00 PM] fatty: you need that soft check
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I wish we had something to help check these
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: oops we banned that
[12:00 PM] fatty: for these mons I’m telling you lol
[12:00 PM] starmaster: the soft check gives you so much room to play around stuff
[12:00 PM] ninja: well if vull was gone
[12:00 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: welp guess LC is a matchup shitfest again
[12:00 PM] ninja: i think bringing pinch back
[12:00 PM] levi: yes that's exactly right @ Pre-Existing Conditions we banned PORYGON
[12:00 PM] ninja: could also follow
[12:01 PM] starmaster: anyway this suspect should literally never happen with 3/9 ppl in support
[12:01 PM] fatty: it’s not just “this mon beats this” stars right the sheer amount vull makes people think about plays
[12:01 PM] starmaster: And nobody is convincing anybody here
[12:01 PM] fatty: or do something different
[12:01 PM] fatty: I absurdly important
[12:01 PM] fatty: is
[12:01 PM] fatty: pls no I’m not playing a meta where checking threats is predicated on trapping things
[12:02 PM] fatty: that’s absolute bs
[12:02 PM] fatty: let’s stop with the pinch shit
[12:02 PM] starmaster: The mere presence of vull makes smth like abra think 5 times before clicking psychic
[12:02 PM] levi: if rocks aren't on the field or vull is a potential scarf, sure
[12:03 PM] ninja: oh honedge would be a good abragast check
[12:03 PM] ninja: w no vull
[12:03 PM] ninja: bc its bad rn since it lets vull in for free every tiem
[12:04 PM] starmaster: spdef vull still eats gleam after rocks
[12:04 PM] starmaster: Also come on that isn’t the reason honedgeis bad
[12:04 PM] starmaster: It also lets in everything else for free
[12:04 PM] ninja: well aside from like ig burr as well
[12:04 PM] ninja: idt giving free turns
[12:04 PM] starmaster: mienfoo, pony, foongus if smth isn’t asleep
[12:04 PM] ninja: to other stuff
[12:04 PM] ninja: is as threatening
[12:05 PM] levi: well if we really want to talk abt the mons that vull holds back significantly
[12:06 PM] levi: then we have to go into the lower subranks
[12:06 PM] levi: since again, it's mainly only going to be a soft check to the upper ranked mons
[12:23 PM] fatty: well it’s checks the majority of A+ rank
[12:24 PM] fatty: which are the strongest mons in question
[12:26 PM] levi: hard checks
[12:26 PM] fatty: counter?
[12:26 PM] fatty: nothing
[12:26 PM] levi: checks w some reliability
[12:26 PM] levi: like
[12:26 PM] fatty: all of them...
[12:26 PM] levi: leviToday at 12:05 PM
well if we really want to talk abt the mons that vull holds back significantly
then we have to go into the lower subranks
since again, it's mainly only going to be a soft check to the upper ranked mons
[12:26 PM] levi: why is this wrong
[12:26 PM] fatty: because ur the only one getting caught up in this dumb ass definition bullshit
[12:26 PM] levi: it holds back gastly, abra etc slightly
[12:27 PM] levi: not that well
[12:27 PM] fatty: hard check, soft check
[12:27 PM] fatty: it checks them
[12:27 PM] fatty: It makes them easier to handle
[12:27 PM] fatty: What else do you want
[12:27 PM] fatty: that’s all I’m getting at, that’s all that matters
[12:27 PM] levi: it does not check gastly as well as a dedicated gastly answer will. if your team is weak to gastly then vull shouldn't be your sole answer anyways
[12:27 PM] fatty: dedicated gas answers don’t exist lol
[12:28 PM] levi: you cannot slap vullaby onto a team and say your team is no longer weak to gastly
[12:28 PM] fatty: are u talking grimer
[12:28 PM] fatty: coz that mon is shit
[12:28 PM] fatty: yes no mon does that Levi
[12:28 PM] levi: even diglett does a much better job acting as a gastly answer
[12:28 PM] levi: than vullaby does
[12:28 PM] fatty: no way lmao
[12:28 PM] fatty: you stay in on the pursuit and eball
[12:28 PM] fatty: if ur talking coverage
[12:29 PM] fatty: if trying way to hard to make it seem like vull doesn’t check shit
[12:29 PM] fatty: when it clearly does
[12:29 PM] levi: eball is not nearly as good as tbolt
[12:29 PM] fatty: you’re
[12:29 PM] fatty: tbolt is literally only for vull
[12:29 PM] fatty: I hard disagree
[12:29 PM] levi: it does check things but theres this claim that it'll become a complete matchup fest
[12:29 PM] fatty: and u can still
[12:29 PM] levi: w.o vull
[12:29 PM] levi: which i just don't agree with
[12:29 PM] fatty: well I don’t claim that
[12:29 PM] fatty: I do think the meta will be worse off tho
[12:29 PM] levi: vull is influencing the meta dramatically
[12:29 PM] levi: i don't disagree w that
[12:29 PM] levi: obv
[12:30 PM] levi: but i think theres way more room for the meta to improve than to get worse
[12:30 PM] levi: is all
[12:30 PM] fatty: I think vullas usage tells a different story
[12:30 PM] levi: "holding the meta together" sure, it does that too but i don't think that's a reason to keep vull
[12:31 PM] fatty: People are more willing to bring a mon they know will get the job done and can play in a way to limit a ton of mons
[12:31 PM] fatty: then gamble with diversity and team matchup
[12:31 PM] fatty: there’s a ton of threats on the meta and vull tends to check a lot of them
[12:31 PM] fatty: whether soft or hard
[12:33 PM] levi: the difference between soft and hard check in this case is that if vull is the sole hard check to sth that's already borderline
[12:33 PM] fatty: if anything the role compression vull creates might allow for more consistent team construction
[12:34 PM] levi: then yea, there's good reason to believe vull's ban will make it an issue
[12:34 PM] levi: if there's a dozen ways to build a team that's more resistant to specific threats than including vull, since it's only a soft check
[12:34 PM] levi: it means we're down an easily splashable tool but there's way more likely to be room
[12:34 PM] levi: to still deal w it
[12:35 PM] levi: with other things that vull had previously been holding back
[12:35 PM] levi: consistent team construction - i think this is something we strive not to have?
[12:35 PM] levi: like i'd rather a more diverse meta
[12:36 PM] levi: preferably not at the huge cost to balance but i think balance and diversity are the two things
[12:36 PM] levi: we're supposed to go for
[12:36 PM] fatty: solid tournament team construction that doesn’t border on the line of matchup
[12:37 PM] levi: ok
[12:37 PM] levi: how do we feel of the quality of the meta last snake
[12:37 PM] levi: beginning and/or end
[12:37 PM] levi: or the avg or w.e
[12:37 PM] fatty: I didn’t play snake
[12:38 PM] fatty: I can’t really comment
[12:38 PM] levi: well u were semi active right
[12:38 PM] levi: did u at least have a rough imperssion
12:39 PM] fatty: idk the only time I’ve had a real problem with the meta
[12:39 PM] fatty: was pinch gasbra
[12:39 PM] fatty: I don’t think the meta I bad rn
[12:40 PM] fatty: but to your previous point, i think its way more important to keep a mon that blankets a ton of shit
[12:40 PM] fatty: rather than one that keeps 1 think countered / hard checked
[12:40 PM] fatty: if that other thing is considered broken without its hard counter
[12:40 PM] fatty: then u ban it too
[12:40 PM] levi: well realistically if a single mon was keeping something else in check
[12:40 PM] levi: then the thing being kept in check was prob broken anyways yea
[12:41 PM] levi: im just not rlly seeing the importance in keeping a potentially broken mon just bc it's a soft blanket check
[12:42 PM] levi: ig it's relaly just coming down to
[12:42 PM] levi: how we feel of the meta rn
[12:42 PM] fatty: yea thats also true
[12:42 PM] fatty: if u dont like the meta, its because of vulla
[12:42 PM] fatty: and naturally you want it gone
[12:43 PM] fatty: altho shrug is the outlier lol
[12:43 PM] fatty: i think
[12:43 PM] levi: i think star kingler might be too?
[12:43 PM] levi: like the anti-pinch faction
[12:43 PM] levi: minus serene who votes anti ban every time bc he "doesnt want to build"
[12:44 PM] levi: anti-pinch ban*
[12:44 PM] fatty: yeah ig
[12:44 PM] starmaster: well I don’t think pinch should have been banned and I liked the meta better with pinch personally
[12:45 PM] starmaster: but I don’t think this meta is bad
[12:45 PM] levi: ah
[1:47 PM] tazz: I think this meta is fine as well
[9:46 PM] ninja: i understand ppl being anti ban but i dont get why there is such opposition to even a suspect
[9:46 PM] ninja: given there is clearly a significant demand for it
[9:46 PM] ninja: the lack of faith in the community to carry out the suspect properly seems ridiculous to me
[9:46 PM] ninja: personally I think the LC community has voted correctly on every single vote in SM
[9:46 PM] ninja: and the only one that was super one sided was the pinch suspect
[9:47 PM] ninja: which as previously stated is entirely the fault of the anti-ban ppl for not posting anything
[9:59 PM] fatty: because suspect = ban
[10:00 PM] ninja: yes i think that's a ridiculous approach
[10:00 PM] fatty: and if the majority of council thinks it shouldnt be suspected
[10:00 PM] fatty: i dont see the problem at all
[10:00 PM] ninja: i dont understand why there is such a lack of faith
[10:00 PM] ninja: in the community
[10:00 PM] fatty: its not ridiculous lol
[10:00 PM] ninja: ok bc they are equating suspect with ban
[10:00 PM] fatty: whats the point of the council
[10:00 PM] ninja: so obv they will never support
[10:00 PM] ninja: a suspect
[10:00 PM] ninja: there is no reason a suspect should be equated with ban
[10:01 PM] fatty: again if majority of council is against a suspect
[10:01 PM] fatty: what ur your reasoning for it being ridiculous
[10:01 PM] fatty: is*
[10:01 PM] ninja: no im saying
[10:01 PM] ninja: the logic of suspect = ban
[10:01 PM] ninja: is ridiculous
[10:02 PM] living so italian: I think perceiving it to not be a ban is potentially damaging
[10:02 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I guarantee you if vull gets suspected it'll be banned with an extremely high %
[10:03 PM] ninja: theres 6 ppl here alone + lily and serene
[10:03 PM] ninja: at the bare minimum
[10:04 PM] fatty: ik ur trying to think of the best ninja
[10:04 PM] fatty: but im sorry if its suspected its 100% getting banned lol
[10:05 PM] fatty: just look at the suspect we've had this gen
[10:05 PM] fatty: the only reason abra was saved
[10:05 PM] fatty: was coz of pinch
[10:05 PM] ninja: i think it would get banned but
[10:05 PM] ninja: idt it would be so one sided
[10:05 PM] ninja: that good posts wouldnt be able to persuade people
[10:06 PM] living so italian: ???
[10:06 PM] living so italian: be real
[10:06 PM] fatty: ur literally contradicting yourself
[10:06 PM] living so italian: you get 1, maybe 2 people who could change their mind after discussion
[10:06 PM] fatty: why would a council, that is majority in favor of not suspecting / banning
[10:06 PM] fatty: be willing to suspect something
[10:06 PM] ninja: bc suspect is being equated w ban
[10:07 PM] ninja: when it shouldnt be
[10:07 PM] fatty: where its assuredly going to be banned
[10:08 PM] fatty: its our job to think what we believe is best for the lc metagame
[10:09 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I think there should be some education done in the metagame thread first
[10:09 PM] ninja: i rly dont think that the result is beyond doubt
[10:09 PM] fatty: ok but again thats not the only reason
[10:09 PM] fatty: council members are against vull ban
[10:09 PM] levi: If you want some education done then you better do it asap @ Pre-Existing Conditions
[10:10 PM] levi: We ideally want to get the suspect done by snake signups if it does happen so
[10:13 PM] levi: I think our circumstances are unique enough that we can genuinely look into it
[10:26 PM] fatty: dude im getting sick of this
[10:26 PM] fatty: we've only ever done what we thought was best for the community
[10:26 PM] fatty: and somehow we're being vilified
[10:27 PM] levi: well
[10:27 PM] levi: star and kingler i imagine are looking to cater more to lc's image in tours
[10:27 PM] levi: but that's important too, they're on council for a reason
[10:27 PM] fatty: everyone is qualified to be on council
[10:27 PM] levi: but yea it's just
[10:27 PM] fatty: do ppl not get
[10:27 PM] levi: easy to villify council bc everything's done behind closed doors
[10:27 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I just don't think the fuckin bird is broken
[10:27 PM] fatty: why the fuck
[10:27 PM] fatty: there is a council
[10:28 PM] fatty: if we just catered to communitys bandwagoning needs
[10:28 PM] fatty: there is absolutely no reason for council
[10:28 PM] fatty: also idg what image has to do w/ this
[10:28 PM] fatty: i also play metagames other than lc
[10:29 PM] fatty: my interest is in lc
[10:36 PM] fatty: anyways
[10:36 PM] fatty: can we get a decision on what we're doing
[10:36 PM] fatty: coz this is very timely
[10:37 PM] fatty: are we voting on a suspect
[10:37 PM] fatty: ig not SUPER timely because we have 2 weeks or so but its definitely better earlier
[10:37 PM] fatty: than later
[10:38 PM] starmaster: well
[10:38 PM] starmaster: nobodys minds r changing
[10:39 PM] starmaster: its 6 to 3 against a suspect
[10:39 PM] starmaster: so i dont see a point in dragging this on
[10:39 PM] fatty: ye id just like it set in stone
[10:39 PM] fatty: if thats the case
[10:39 PM] starmaster: yea
[10:39 PM] levi: well again i want to think if
[10:39 PM] levi: there's a way we can get around that
[10:39 PM] levi: like set up a suspect in a way that works for you guys too
[10:40 PM] levi: even if posting a vull thread rn as usual isn't on the table
[10:41 PM] fatty: why are we trying to circumvent
[10:41 PM] starmaster: idk what that means
[10:42 PM] starmaster: how can a suspect work in any other way
[10:42 PM] levi: well im discussing
[10:42 PM] levi: joltage's suggestion rn
[10:42 PM] starmaster: which is?
[10:42 PM] fatty: vulless ladder
[10:42 PM] levi: leviToday at 9:39 PM
JoltageToday at 9:23 PM
Feel free to tell me to shut the hell up, but is there any reason we can’t run a Vull-less ladder for a period and then have the council make a decision regarding whether or not to have a public test. I’m thinking something similar to the dig test from Oras except in two potential stages
i like this a lot
it's a lot less extreme than actually basing the results of the test on the suspect-less ladder
we're only deciding whether a broken mon should be suspected
and even though it's kinda weird i think we can make a serious case for it, it might be what we need
bc we have: a generally agreed to be broken mon (not to the degree of some of our banlist), that has been an extremely central piece of of a meta that's nearing its end (not much time to fix the meta up after if something goes wrong, which is hard to predict given how influential the suspected mon is - this means it's harder to just say "broken = suspect")
[10:42 PM] levi: posted this in bigwig
[10:42 PM] fatty: id be down
[10:42 PM] fatty: but
[10:42 PM] fatty: only if we still had a council vote after
[10:43 PM] levi: yea 100%
[10:47 PM] ninja: what's different last yr vs now
[10:47 PM] living so italian: the announcement of the new game
[10:48 PM] levi: yea
[10:48 PM] levi: stuff related to the post-vull meta
[10:48 PM] levi: as opposed to themeta now
[10:48 PM] ninja: i personally do not think that should change anything
[10:48 PM] ninja: like
[10:49 PM] ninja: there's still easily enough times
[10:49 PM] ninja: time
[10:49 PM] ninja: its less than 4 months since pinch was banned
[10:49 PM] ninja: esp w snake on i think the meta would
[10:49 PM] living so italian: wow it's been 4 months since pinch was banned?
[10:49 PM] ninja: easily stabilise
[10:50 PM] fatty: yes i def woulda suspected vulla around when gull was suspected
[10:50 PM] fatty: but i was also very much against that
[10:50 PM] living so italian: pinch didn't have quite the stranglehold on the meta
[10:50 PM] living so italian: that vully does
[10:50 PM] living so italian: I think pinch had less than abra did
[10:50 PM] living so italian: at the time of the suspects
[10:51 PM] fatty: i think it being too late is 100% a valid argument now
[10:51 PM] fatty: altho i dont think its the best argument
[10:51 PM] living so italian: oh I 100% agree
[10:51 PM] ninja: well i mean ppl will still play it
[10:51 PM] ninja: going into gen 8
[10:51 PM] living so italian: it's a bad argument
[10:51 PM] ninja: esp if it doesnt have all the mons or w/e
[10:51 PM] living so italian: then we can suspect it
[10:51 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: I just think the meta's in a nice spot
[10:51 PM] living so italian: during gen 8
[10:51 PM] ninja: if vull isnt getting suspected i would also support a gull retest fwiw
[10:51 PM] ninja: would heavily prefer vull though
[10:52 PM] fatty: ok mb not a great argument to stand on, but if ur looking for something to sway u
[10:52 PM] living so italian: I wouldn't be opposed to a resuspect
[10:52 PM] fatty: wingull
[10:52 PM] living so italian: as long as it isn't sun
[10:52 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: Sun can stay gone
[10:52 PM] fatty: but i would be very against doing a resuspect of gull for the sake of it
[10:53 PM] fatty: thats the problem w/ mons like gull the dont provide amazing utility so whats the point of resuspecting in the minds of most ppl
[10:53 PM] ninja: well i think w no pinch it wouldnt be as good
[10:53 PM] ninja: and would make the meta more diverse
[10:53 PM] fatty: i mean pinch wasnt at its peak
[10:54 PM] fatty: in gull meta
[10:54 PM] fatty: but kinda agreed
[10:54 PM] ninja: ye but pinch gull was still
[10:54 PM] ninja: p good
[10:54 PM] fatty: ye
[10:55 PM] fatty: i think wingull would be a very good resuspect
[10:55 PM] living so italian: fuck off shrug
[10:55 PM] living so italian: LOL
[10:55 PM] fatty: if that was on the table
[10:55 PM] Pre-Existing Conditions: If bringing back wingull is the final straw to getting people to stop using onix for good...im down
[10:55 PM] fatty: if ur running double bird ur at a discerable disadvantage for certain mons
[10:56 PM] ninja: i also think more ppl are using 19 speeders
[10:56 PM] ninja: than in gull meta
[10:56 PM] fatty: and it forced different arcs
[10:56 PM] fatty: and ye it has more comp at 19 spe now
[10:56 PM] fatty: vulla was def less used
[10:56 PM] fatty: in gull meta
[10:56 PM] fatty: while gull was not "dominant" in terms of usage
July 17:
[1:13 PM] tazz: i’ll prob vote against a vull ban and ill post against it but i think we should still suspect it
[1:14 PM] tazz: just in an effort to be responsive
[1:14 PM] tazz: I would rather not do a wingull resuspecf