Me waiting for pheromosa,lele, and gene to get ban, but all jokes on the side the quick ban was something I question at first but reading up the reasons in the thread it makes sense now. Balance definitely appreciate this ban.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
If You want to keep smergel healthy You can slap sap strength on him and he might live hits and it hits grass pokemon too, idk I know some people have rocked nuzzle in the past just feel it might have some niche use
-1 248 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Smeargle: 102-120 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 248 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Smeargle: 102-120 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It's shocking how powerful choicescarf Garchomp is right now. People are running Magearnas, choice band Zygarde dog, Marowak, Toxapex, Xurkitree, and Kokos like no tomorrow and scarf Chomp crushes them all. He also secures a KO against scarf Lele when its at 76%, so keep that in mind as well. There's also a lot of players who just expect you to stealth rock instead of going right for the attack, or being faster than their offensive mon. You'd be shocked at how often I kill lead Kokos from who don't expect the scarf. The thing you really need to watch out for is Landorus T. A lot of time, that thing will be the one pokemon that stands between you and a total sweep.
Landorus, although very powerful, was definately not quickban worthy. I think quickbans should be reserved for extreme cases, such as with power construct and aegislash. This i feel should have been suspected before outright banned. Not that i think it would stay in OU anyways, I just think that quickbanning something that may have an argument on the other side isn't right
I mean I'm a little surprised it was quick banned, especially this early but ultimately it wasn't gonna be here so I can't really say I strongly disagree with banning it without a suspect.
So, after the Lando ban and like a month of metagame, what you guys think of Ash-Greninja? Is he a threat like Protean Greninja?
I think that he actually has a easy time getting into Ash form because with that speed he can revenge kill a lot of non scarf mons and Dark+Water+Ice give him great coverage, and when he is in that form, 2HKO at worst anything that cant resist Hydro+Pulse plus Water Shuriken for Phero.
I think that he actually has a easy time getting into Ash form because with that speed he can revenge kill a lot of non scarf mons and Dark+Water+Ice give him great coverage, and when he is in that form, 2HKO at worst anything that cant resist Hydro+Pulse plus Water Shuriken for Phero.
thats what I thought as well untill I ran into 2 of them in a row with gravity
Pretty sure Lando-I was top 10 in usage. Either way there's about 5 mons who need to go and Lando is one of them, so I won't complain if the order isn't what I was expecting.
The implications for the meta is pretty heavy. Specifically, Stall now isn't thinking about this. Two sheer-power users in OU remain that can smash stall. Hoopa-U who the council has instilled in me no confidence it'll be here when I wake up and Manaphy, who is set dependent on it. Lele is close but I feel there are definitive, viable options for the sets, or combinations of mons that will render Lele unable to present the same threat Hoopa U and Manaphy can provide.
Stall is unquestionably amazing right now. Really I've had no issue covering the majority of the meta with combinations like Tangrowth/Sableye/Toxapex, Venusaur/Fini/Psychic, CharizardX/Skarmory/Quagsire cores. Quag/Skarm/ZardX physdef and Chansey/Bulu/Rachi spdef is just a theory mold, but it's immediately apparent how hard this meta is becoming for non-dedicated taunt breakers to make headway vs stall. This team was also impossible as of 4:59 today but now is a completely viable meta option.
It's just a feeling but should we see Hoopa U out of the picture, this meta will look a lot like ADV in terms of bulk. The generation just didn't recieve a good balanced power spike. The strong mons were too strong and the rest just middling or bulky. Dear I say my immediate thought is the archtype is just a bit overtuned right now? Don't get me wrong, I'm excited. But the aspect of a challenge just feels diminished.
Stall is unquestionably amazing right now. Really I've had no issue covering the majority of the meta with combinations like Tangrowth/Sableye/Toxapex, Venusaur/Fini/Psychic, CharizardX/Skarmory/Quagsire cores. Quag/Skarm/ZardX physdef and Chansey/Bulu/Rachi spdef is just a theory mold, but it's immediately apparent how hard this meta is becoming for non-dedicated taunt breakers to make headway vs stall. This team was also impossible as of 4:59 today but now is a completely viable meta option.
It's just a feeling but should we see Hoopa U out of the picture, this meta will look a lot like ADV in terms of bulk. The generation just didn't recieve a good balanced power spike. The strong mons were too strong and the rest just middling or bulky. Dear I say my immediate thought is the archtype is just a bit overtuned right now? Don't get me wrong, I'm excited. But the aspect of a challenge just feels diminished.
I mean we'll see when the unreleased megas come like Medicham and Gardevoir...we also can't forget that Mega Mawile is coming back down to OU as well...
Medicham was never really the big issue for stall. Sable, doublade, cress, mew are the last gen counter, Slowbro should be decent check. I don't think we gained anything for it. Fini comes close and avoids 2hko but that's about it.
Gard is moreso a problem but again you have Celesteela this generation, Rachi/Skarm are traditionally good and that's on top of chansey to catch all if something goes wrong. Mawile's a proper wallbreaker but if Dugtrio's around, it's still contained and contained fairly well.
Nidoking's flaw has always been he can't beat chansey. It will have some set decisions, as last gen it went flamethrower for ferro, but this gen wants Tbolt for Mantine. However, with the Tapus around, this guy is going to be really good.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Mantine: 133-156 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 78.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah there's definitely potential coming but certainly right now it isn't here.
Gard is moreso a problem but again you have Celesteela this generation, Rachi/Skarm are traditionally good and that's on top of chansey to catch all if something goes wrong. Mawile's a proper wallbreaker but if Dugtrio's around, it's still contained and contained fairly well.
Nidoking's flaw has always been he can't beat chansey. It will have some set decisions, as last gen it went flamethrower for ferro, but this gen wants Tbolt for Mantine. However, with the Tapus around, this guy is going to be really good.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Mantine: 133-156 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- 78.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah there's definitely potential coming but certainly right now it isn't here.
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I'm surprised with the Landorus-I uickban mainly because i thought Genesect would get the boot first. But, it would have been banned at some point down the road.
Nidoking seems kinda meh, considering there's Nihilego who holds a better speed tier and Special Attack than Nidoking, but they both can't beat Chansey. Nidoking does have perks over Nihilego such as a slightly better movepool and mixed-attacker stats.
Also, I'm sure that Nintendo will release the missing mega stones considering a lot of them are coded onto the trainers that use them in the Battle Tree/Royale.
Nidoking seems kinda meh, considering there's Nihilego who holds a better speed tier and Special Attack than Nidoking, but they both can't beat Chansey. Nidoking does have perks over Nihilego such as a slightly better movepool and mixed-attacker stats.
Also, I'm sure that Nintendo will release the missing mega stones considering a lot of them are coded onto the trainers that use them in the Battle Tree/Royale.
Curious as to what your argument is against a Pokemon that killed just about everything with very little to challenge it. I mean, this is a forum and all, and discussions are what we do, so you may as well provide some fresh perspective among a thread that is 99% in favor of the ban.
So tell me: what did you see balancing it that the rest of us, including the OU council, didn't?
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
Gotta realize when someone without pull states an unbacked opinion it is always ignored by groups that've been around 10+ years, You're good people tho
I mean he never claimed it should have stayed only that he thought it warranted an actual suspect test as opposed to a quick ban because in his mind a quick ban should be a rare occurrence reserved for undeniably broken pokemon. Now I'm not sure whether or not I agree with that but that's really all he said lol.
The thing that gets me is Landorus-i was undeniably worse in this meta than he was in ORAS when he got a full suspect. XY's quick bans were Mega Gengar, Mega Blaziken, Mega Khangaskhan and Deoxys Normal. Blanket, undeniably broken pokemon. But even then, there were discussion threads for MKhan and MGengar. And Lucarionite was suspected with Genesect, Deo-S and Deo-d if I recall correctly. Lucarionite, a mon so damn broken in OU, it not only lacked a counter for the mon as a whole, it very nearly lacked counters for individual sets and had access to three viable priority moves just to make sure it had few good checks. Landorus-i simply wasn't to the meta what those mons were. The reason I'm okay with Aegi being Quick banned this time is because we'd never seen a mon quite like it in XY so it had to shake out. We recognize Aegislash isn't the typical type and rather good enough on enough teams with enough sets to bend the meta. The distortion isn't so visible while he's in the meta, but rather when he's gone.
I'm a stickler for policy, rules and precedence. I feel like this was exactly the place the council should've exercised that, but failed to. And while I'm not on any one of the council's level in skill and maybe knowledge level of the tier, I can certainly say as a fact that we've given far more broken pokemon suspect tests. In the tier right now, I'd argue Hoopa-U is generically more oppressive. I think people are too tied up over Pheromosa and while I think Genesect is too rewarding for too little thought, it probably is fine. However, all of these, like Landorus-i, are subject to personal opinion.
Unless the council can prove that Landorus-i was as broken as Deoxys-N or Blaizken-Mega were last gen, which the post they made certainly didn't sound like they felt Lando-i was comparable, they really should explain what kind of precedence they're setting. I don't think it's too late to try a suspect but I also don't think they'll do it. Personally, it's a bit disappointing to see them not uphold the policies set forth prior with no good reasoning added for the change.
I'm a stickler for policy, rules and precedence. I feel like this was exactly the place the council should've exercised that, but failed to. And while I'm not on any one of the council's level in skill and maybe knowledge level of the tier, I can certainly say as a fact that we've given far more broken pokemon suspect tests. In the tier right now, I'd argue Hoopa-U is generically more oppressive. I think people are too tied up over Pheromosa and while I think Genesect is too rewarding for too little thought, it probably is fine. However, all of these, like Landorus-i, are subject to personal opinion.
Unless the council can prove that Landorus-i was as broken as Deoxys-N or Blaizken-Mega were last gen, which the post they made certainly didn't sound like they felt Lando-i was comparable, they really should explain what kind of precedence they're setting. I don't think it's too late to try a suspect but I also don't think they'll do it. Personally, it's a bit disappointing to see them not uphold the policies set forth prior with no good reasoning added for the change.
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I'm definitely not saying that this thing is balanced, because it definitely isn't and should it be suspected, I'd vote to ban it. However the point I was trying to get across is that it just wasn't broken enough to warrant a quick banning. This thing isn't much better than it was last gen, yet it got a full suspect then but not now it's suddenly deemed powerful enough for a quick ban. I feel like quick bans should be bans that absolutely nobody would disagree with and I can see an opposition to the ban, even though I'd disagree. The post above me did a much better job at explaining my position. Sorry if I was unclear before.
Y'know, it's not impossible to re-introduce a threat later in the metagame! Landorus and Aegislash are known quantities. Since both exhibited all the same broken characteristics as they did last gen, I don't see the harm in quick-banning them initially so that we can focus attention on the new potential suspects. It's hard to gauge whether something like Tapu Lele is overpowered, for instance, when Landorus is causing bulkier team archetypes to see much lower usage.
The problem I perceive is that Aegislash, the only returned-then-quickbanned-again case before Landorus-I here was a very unique case in terms of his effect on the meta. The nature of what Aegislash does means its sort of a "binary" analysis for me: either he still wraps the meta around himself or he does not. It's not quite like Garchomp, who was banned in Gen 4 and became OU when the metagame tools overall just evolved such that he didn't break everything over his knees.
Landorus-I I would place in a similar category in concept: even if he ultimately is still too powerful, it's not absurd to think the meta could reach a point where he's great without being broken. Compare this to Pheromosa, who is essentially Deoxys-N (obviously quickbanned) with U-Turn, Bug/Fighting STAB (two STAB boosted types being hard to wall) and pivot potential, while even being marginally faster (it outspeeds MEGAS whose explicit selling point is being fast without absurd power like Aerodactyl). I don't see this mon being healthy for the OU metagame as long as we are in a state that Deoxys-N is as well.
But Pheromosa is new and we wanted to give it a chance. I'll let that slide to a degree, but then we have old unbans that are not even on a mild decline. One argument I saw brought up is that Landorus-I gets better because for every 1 Pokemon introduced that beats him, 50 are introduced that he murder. But then you have mons like Genesect, who don't really care about what is specifically introduced as long as the state of the metagame doesn't see some drastic overhaul. Unless the OU offensive metagame in general regularly outspeeds Scarf Genesect, it's not really going to get worse at what it does, Download Wallbreaking and absurdly easy Pivoting with U-Turn. Genesect is much easier to make a snap "he's still unhealthy" judgement than Landorus-I is, and that judgement, to me, feels like what a Quickban would be reserved for.
Not saying Landorus-I was healthy enough to stay, but it perplexes me both that he got a Quickban and that he saw this reaction before Pheromosa, Genesect, or some things I don't even think are broken like Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko. Genesect is the same nuclear momentum generator it always has been, and Pheromosa is an offensive Lightning Bruiser that seems to have only 3 things that can reliably check it (ignoring U-Turn Pivoting): Toxapex, Mantine, and Alolan Marowak, and I'd debate Mantine at that.
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And for Alolan Marowak, I would never be stupid enough to think Pheromosa is the only reason it got big. It's an excellent answer to several other prominent Metagame threats, but I think it can also be agreed that the sheer power Pheromosa has over the tier was a significant factor in him making Top 2 (discounting Aegislash) usage compared to, say Top 10.
I'm rambling a bit, but I'm just legitimately confused why the Council deemed Landorus-I a more immediate concern, and to such a degree as to quick ban him before things that I (and I would assume a sizable number of other users) consider more unhealthy and worthy of a quickban than he.
Landorus-I I would place in a similar category in concept: even if he ultimately is still too powerful, it's not absurd to think the meta could reach a point where he's great without being broken. Compare this to Pheromosa, who is essentially Deoxys-N (obviously quickbanned) with U-Turn, Bug/Fighting STAB (two STAB boosted types being hard to wall) and pivot potential, while even being marginally faster (it outspeeds MEGAS whose explicit selling point is being fast without absurd power like Aerodactyl). I don't see this mon being healthy for the OU metagame as long as we are in a state that Deoxys-N is as well.
But Pheromosa is new and we wanted to give it a chance. I'll let that slide to a degree, but then we have old unbans that are not even on a mild decline. One argument I saw brought up is that Landorus-I gets better because for every 1 Pokemon introduced that beats him, 50 are introduced that he murder. But then you have mons like Genesect, who don't really care about what is specifically introduced as long as the state of the metagame doesn't see some drastic overhaul. Unless the OU offensive metagame in general regularly outspeeds Scarf Genesect, it's not really going to get worse at what it does, Download Wallbreaking and absurdly easy Pivoting with U-Turn. Genesect is much easier to make a snap "he's still unhealthy" judgement than Landorus-I is, and that judgement, to me, feels like what a Quickban would be reserved for.
Not saying Landorus-I was healthy enough to stay, but it perplexes me both that he got a Quickban and that he saw this reaction before Pheromosa, Genesect, or some things I don't even think are broken like Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko. Genesect is the same nuclear momentum generator it always has been, and Pheromosa is an offensive Lightning Bruiser that seems to have only 3 things that can reliably check it (ignoring U-Turn Pivoting): Toxapex, Mantine, and Alolan Marowak, and I'd debate Mantine at that.
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And for Alolan Marowak, I would never be stupid enough to think Pheromosa is the only reason it got big. It's an excellent answer to several other prominent Metagame threats, but I think it can also be agreed that the sheer power Pheromosa has over the tier was a significant factor in him making Top 2 (discounting Aegislash) usage compared to, say Top 10.
I'm rambling a bit, but I'm just legitimately confused why the Council deemed Landorus-I a more immediate concern, and to such a degree as to quick ban him before things that I (and I would assume a sizable number of other users) consider more unhealthy and worthy of a quickban than he.
LOL, Landorus actually gained reliable switchin this gen
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 146-172 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Before bashing me that "omg, 43% is still a shitton" here is thing:
-Focus blast has this beutifull 70% acc making it really unreliable
-There are better moves to pack on Lando like rock polish, stealth rocks, hp ice, knock off.
-Lando is easili 2hko back after sr
Of coures lando is still broken, it's good that this thing is gone.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 146-172 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Before bashing me that "omg, 43% is still a shitton" here is thing:
-Focus blast has this beutifull 70% acc making it really unreliable
-There are better moves to pack on Lando like rock polish, stealth rocks, hp ice, knock off.
-Lando is easili 2hko back after sr
Of coures lando is still broken, it's good that this thing is gone.
p2
Banned deucer.
just because it wasn't phero doesn't mean its a reason to bitch about the ou council and their tiering policy
to said people: have you considered that they're trying to give newly introduced mons more time in the tier before having a knee jerk reaction and immediately banning them? and do you also realise how many people are overrating the living shit out of phero, it's still broken but you can't seriously tell anybody that banning lando-i was a shitty decision.
lando has a good 2 gens of use which can attest to its absurd brokenness, phero has a whopping 4 weeks of use, there's a big difference.
to said people: have you considered that they're trying to give newly introduced mons more time in the tier before having a knee jerk reaction and immediately banning them? and do you also realise how many people are overrating the living shit out of phero, it's still broken but you can't seriously tell anybody that banning lando-i was a shitty decision.
lando has a good 2 gens of use which can attest to its absurd brokenness, phero has a whopping 4 weeks of use, there's a big difference.
I was trying Z-Memento and Mega Gyarados because of how amazing Z-Memento could open up set up opportunities and I found myself needing a stallbreaker.
Naturally, I choose CM Landorus.
I know it wasn't a popular set, but what does stall have for Z-Memento + CM Landorus? Literally nothing. CM Landorus already invalidates stall, espec with some of its main counters being either really bad or not available, and using it with Z-Memento just let me play with CM Landorus aggressively: set up CM and break 1-2 stallmons, usually the counter mons, swap out before dying, Z-Memento back to Landorus mid game, and literally clean up for free.
It was so dirty and easy. I don't think genesect can invalidate any playstyle like that to the degree of Landorous. Only Phermosa comes close, but since it is a new pokemon, I can see why the council would wait on its suspect / not quickbanned.
Naturally, I choose CM Landorus.
I know it wasn't a popular set, but what does stall have for Z-Memento + CM Landorus? Literally nothing. CM Landorus already invalidates stall, espec with some of its main counters being either really bad or not available, and using it with Z-Memento just let me play with CM Landorus aggressively: set up CM and break 1-2 stallmons, usually the counter mons, swap out before dying, Z-Memento back to Landorus mid game, and literally clean up for free.
It was so dirty and easy. I don't think genesect can invalidate any playstyle like that to the degree of Landorous. Only Phermosa comes close, but since it is a new pokemon, I can see why the council would wait on its suspect / not quickbanned.
So many biased balance users LOL. I disagree with the quickban completely. Lando-I obviously fared much worse in this metagame than the previous ones and a quick ban was the last thing it needed. I dont know why the fuck people keep repeating the same irrelevant "lando has a good 2 gens of use which can attest to its absurd brokenness" when this meta is clearly isn't like those.
First of all, this metagame introduced a huge sarge of fast powerful attackers along with previous ones such as Phero, Tapu Koko, Gren, buff to rain, Megas like MegaGross getting that boosted speed on the first turn etc to just extend the long list of revenge killers lando has.
Also, Lando-I took a big hit with the added checks in Mantine, Tapu Bulu, Celeestela which are all top tier mons. Now Lando can get past them easily but this causes a severe 4MSS on Lando's part. In previous gen, Earth Power, Focus Blast and HP Ice were set in stone and you could still get a strong wall breaker with the 4th move being any of Knock Off, CM or Sludge Wave. But this gen, Lando has to choose which mon should it get completely walled by, Mantine or Bulu. And if it caters to both then either Gliscor, or SKarmory or Chansey rises up as a 100% counters. Not to mention Celeestela is a very good check and can help play around Lando. So can Rotom-W. Lando also lacks any form of recovery, common weakness in Ice and Water and suspectible to both Burn and Poison so wearing it down isn't hard either. I didn't even mention all those random checks you can just "invent" by slapping on an Assault Vast in any farely bulky mon (Tangrowth, Slowbro, Conk etc). But wait, there's more. Lando-I doesnt have the sheer OHKOing capability of something like Hoopa meaning you can stay in with something like Amoongus or Ferrothorn to get of stun spore, spore or a toxic. It doesnt have the endurance or status protection or insane boosting move the likes of Manaphy or Xukitree has and it's main coverage moves have a lot of immunities meaning you can switch in your Thundy on a predicted Earth Power and force it out, something much harder to vs other wall breakers such as a Specs Hoopa spamming Dark Pulse or the bulky hard to OHKO Manaphy.
From what I see, Lando simply forced Balance users to make skillful decisions and switches, run combination of mons to get around it safely rather than 1 solid "beats every set" counter. The way it should be to deal against wallbreakers. They're called wall breakers for a reason. Could it be broken? maybe and maybe not. But definitely far from quick ban worthy. The council loves Phero too much.
First of all, this metagame introduced a huge sarge of fast powerful attackers along with previous ones such as Phero, Tapu Koko, Gren, buff to rain, Megas like MegaGross getting that boosted speed on the first turn etc to just extend the long list of revenge killers lando has.
Also, Lando-I took a big hit with the added checks in Mantine, Tapu Bulu, Celeestela which are all top tier mons. Now Lando can get past them easily but this causes a severe 4MSS on Lando's part. In previous gen, Earth Power, Focus Blast and HP Ice were set in stone and you could still get a strong wall breaker with the 4th move being any of Knock Off, CM or Sludge Wave. But this gen, Lando has to choose which mon should it get completely walled by, Mantine or Bulu. And if it caters to both then either Gliscor, or SKarmory or Chansey rises up as a 100% counters. Not to mention Celeestela is a very good check and can help play around Lando. So can Rotom-W. Lando also lacks any form of recovery, common weakness in Ice and Water and suspectible to both Burn and Poison so wearing it down isn't hard either. I didn't even mention all those random checks you can just "invent" by slapping on an Assault Vast in any farely bulky mon (Tangrowth, Slowbro, Conk etc). But wait, there's more. Lando-I doesnt have the sheer OHKOing capability of something like Hoopa meaning you can stay in with something like Amoongus or Ferrothorn to get of stun spore, spore or a toxic. It doesnt have the endurance or status protection or insane boosting move the likes of Manaphy or Xukitree has and it's main coverage moves have a lot of immunities meaning you can switch in your Thundy on a predicted Earth Power and force it out, something much harder to vs other wall breakers such as a Specs Hoopa spamming Dark Pulse or the bulky hard to OHKO Manaphy.
From what I see, Lando simply forced Balance users to make skillful decisions and switches, run combination of mons to get around it safely rather than 1 solid "beats every set" counter. The way it should be to deal against wallbreakers. They're called wall breakers for a reason. Could it be broken? maybe and maybe not. But definitely far from quick ban worthy. The council loves Phero too much.
Dude, Z-Memento plus any god damn Ok wall-breaker invalidates stall
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