(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Samtendo09]

>(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

Boy oh boy,

Priority moves are absolute cancer and I'm tired of pretending that its not, and its ridiculous that only 2 Pokemon(Technically 3 with Lele) have abilities to counter this, Bruxish with Dazzling and Tsareena with Queensly Majesty, that are both ZU ATM iirc

My solution would be a temporary metagame where mons like Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Pheromosa, Polteageist have the ability to reign free without Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Mach Punch etc,

That I disagree a lot. Alongside Rillaboom’s “true” signature in Grassy Glide that got rightfully nerfed in SV, there is Jet Punch that I took issue with as it’s on top of an already broken Pokémon, alongside Supreme Overlord not taking priority moves in Sucker Punch into consideration, but that’s it.

Priority moves are necessery to give slower Pokémon to snipe a faster target, and stronger priority moves tend to have necessary drawbacks so that they can’t get overwhelming. An example being First Impression or Fake Out only working on the user’s first turn out, or Extreme Speed having extremely limited distribution, and only Smeargle (via Sketch) and Arceus have STAB on this move. Faster Pokémon tend to drop using priority moves unless it’s for specifically very fast opponents.

Extreme Speed played a part on making Arceus retroactively banned in Gen 4 Ubers, but that’s one case of priority move turn a Pokémon too powerful compared to many other priority moves that didn’t made a Pokémon too powerful.

You said that priority is cancerous while not saying the issues Pheromosa caused in OU, being that it hit too hard and is too fast at the same time. Priority moves won’t be enough to stop it as their Trainer can and will them Focus Sash. There’s also Blaziken in Gen 5-7 and Mega Blaziken in Gen 6-7 that gets faster and faster via Speed Boost, and priority moves aren’t enough to keep them in OU either, so both gets banned in Ubers as a result.

Even if priority moves were that “cancerous”, there’s nothing stopping Greninja from running Water Shuriken or SwSh Cinderace running Sucker Punch. In general, Pokémon that are fast and become banned are due to how both hard hitting they are and also being fast, not just because of priority moves they have. Banning or deleting priority moves, likewise, would not accomplish anything other than leaving slower Pokémon with almost nothing to counter faster ones.

tl;dr priority moves are not to blame, and removing them will leave a negative impact for metagames

 

[Epicgamergod69]

That I disagree a lot. There is Jet Punch that I took issue with as it’s on top of an already broken Pokémon, alongside Supreme Overlord not taking priority moves in Sucker Punch into consideration, but that’s it.

Priority moves are necessery to give slower Pokémon to snipe a faster target, and stronger priority moves tend to have necessary drawbacks so that they can’t get overwhelming. An example being First Impression or Fake Out only working on the user’s first turn out, or Extreme Speed having extremely limited distribution, and only Smeargle (via Sketch) and Arceus have STAB on this move. Faster Pokémon tend to drop using priority moves unless it’s for specifically very fast opponents.

Extreme Speed played a part on making Arceus retroactively banned in Gen 4 Ubers, but that’s one case of priority move turn a Pokémon too powerful compared to many other priority moves that didn’t made a Pokémon too powerful.

You said that priority is cancerous while not saying the issues Pheromosa caused in OU, being that it hit too hard and is too fast at the same time. Priority moves won’t be enough to stop it as their Trainer can and will them Focus Sash. There’s also Blaziken in Gen 5-7 and Mega Blaziken in Gen 6-7 that gets faster and faster via Speed Boost, and priority moves aren’t enough to keep them in OU either, so both gets banned in Ubers as a result.

Even if priority moves were that “cancerous”, there’s nothing stopping Greninja from running Water Shuriken or Cinderace running Sucker Punch. In general, Pokémon that are fast and become banned are due to how both hard hitting they are, not just because of priority moves they have. Banning or deleting priority moves, likewise, would not accomplish anything other than leaving slower Pokémon with almost nothing to counter faster ones.

tl;dr priority moves are not to blame, and removing them will leave a negative impact for metagames

Everything said here I agree with and in addition it fixes the issue of when you don't quite get the K.O. and you would get swept by a mon that is on like 2 hp

 

[Axiemeister]

speed is way too relevant of a stat competitively for priority moves to not exist, and it adds more strategy in-game specially when foes have them. i am team priority moves

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

That I disagree a lot. Alongside Rillaboom’s “true” signature in Grassy Glide that got rightfully nerfed in SV, there is Jet Punch that I took issue with as it’s on top of an already broken Pokémon, alongside Supreme Overlord not taking priority moves in Sucker Punch into consideration, but that’s it.

Priority moves are necessery to give slower Pokémon to snipe a faster target, and stronger priority moves tend to have necessary drawbacks so that they can’t get overwhelming. An example being First Impression or Fake Out only working on the user’s first turn out, or Extreme Speed having extremely limited distribution, and only Smeargle (via Sketch) and Arceus have STAB on this move. Faster Pokémon tend to drop using priority moves unless it’s for specifically very fast opponents.

Extreme Speed played a part on making Arceus retroactively banned in Gen 4 Ubers, but that’s one case of priority move turn a Pokémon too powerful compared to many other priority moves that didn’t made a Pokémon too powerful.

You said that priority is cancerous while not saying the issues Pheromosa caused in OU, being that it hit too hard and is too fast at the same time. Priority moves won’t be enough to stop it as their Trainer can and will them Focus Sash. There’s also Blaziken in Gen 5-7 and Mega Blaziken in Gen 6-7 that gets faster and faster via Speed Boost, and priority moves aren’t enough to keep them in OU either, so both gets banned in Ubers as a result.

Even if priority moves were that “cancerous”, there’s nothing stopping Greninja from running Water Shuriken or SwSh Cinderace running Sucker Punch. In general, Pokémon that are fast and become banned are due to how both hard hitting they are and also being fast, not just because of priority moves they have. Banning or deleting priority moves, likewise, would not accomplish anything other than leaving slower Pokémon with almost nothing to counter faster ones.

tl;dr priority moves are not to blame, and removing them will leave a negative impact for metagames

Except MOST mons with priority moves are pretty speedy Pokémon like Greninja, Infernape, Mega Pinsir, Lucario, again, don't take me out of context, I never said I wanted them removed I just wanted a temporary metagame where its gone because it creates an unfair pressure group in the metagame where you could set up a shell smash with your Omastar and your at 1 hp cause of sash and your opponent pulls out the BP Scizor at the last moment to sidetrack your sweep

With Grassy Glide it was a nightmare since it was priority and stab + grassy terrain

>Speed

I'm glad you brought this up,

I feel like this is a bigger problem of another issue, where Gamefreak really isn't giving mons the speed they need to actually sweep, Blacephalon, Thunderous, and Gengar are all victims of this, they would be monsters with specs but are too slow to execute a sweep and things like Koko, Greninja and Dragapult halt them in their tracks, if a mon is GOOD in my eyes they MUST have a speed at 122 or more, 120 honestly doesn't cut it,

like when was the last time you've seen the traditional swords dance chomp sweep??

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

Both Bruxish and Tsareena are NU and then there is also Farigiraf in PU which is actually quite a good pokemon in VGC (y’know, the main format they balance around?)

I was obviously making a joke, they were slapped in OU for a bit and then forgotten about and hilariously dropped so many tiers to the bottom, I feel like Sun and Moon had the slowest mons that gen, like none of the starters are even OU lol, I guess Inceniroar is incredibly useful in Doubles VGC I guess

If Bruxish got Dragon Dance I'd say it'll probably be UU or RUBL because of Strong Jaw, but its just so slow given the metagame that it can't do anything

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

Everything said here I agree with and in addition it fixes the issue of when you don't quite get the K.O. and you would get swept by a mon that is on like 2 hp

I've been a victim of the "about to win" and then the tryhard chips me down with priority/switch in spam,

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I've been a victim of the "about to win" and then the tryhard chips me down with priority/switch in spam,

When I started having a grasp on how competitive Pokemon works in Gen 6, I had a lot of fun boosting up with Volcarona and sweeping. During this time, I gained a dislike of Azumarill, because it would Aqua Jet my +3 Volcarona that "should" have swept my opponent's team.

Today, now that I have a marginally firmer grasp on how competitive Pokemon works, I realize that my Volcarona was never "about to win" against a team that still had an Azumarill in the back, I was too eager to boost up with Volcarona to see big number get bigger, and I should have waited until Azumarill was out of the picture before trying to sweep.

Basically, if you're "about to win" and your opponent turns it around with something as simple as switching or common priority, you were never about to win in the first place.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

When I started having a grasp on how competitive Pokemon works in Gen 6, I had a lot of fun boosting up with Volcarona and sweeping. During this time, I gained a dislike of Azumarill, because it would Aqua Jet my +3 Volcarona that "should" have swept my opponent's team.

Today, now that I have a marginally firmer grasp on how competitive Pokemon works, I realize that my Volcarona was never "about to win" against a team that still had an Azumarill in the back, I was too eager to boost up with Volcarona to see big number get bigger, and I should have waited until Azumarill was out of the picture before trying to sweep.

Basically, if you're "about to win" and your opponent turns it around with something as simple as switching or common priority, you were never about to win in the first place.

A bit late, but im glad you respectfully noticed me, after I texted you a year ago

In regards to your statement, I meant in the sense of "oh he has X Pokémon in the back that can sucker punch or bullet etc" the priority move schtick is the only reason why Mega Sceptile is so many tiers below and why Mega Mawile is even so high lol, it just seems hyperbolically cheap, and not fun to play around, especially since your faster and the other guy isn't,

and you said it yourself, he wasn't gonna beat you but had a mon that could hit you despite not having any speed

 

[Axiemeister]

I feel like this is a bigger problem of another issue, where Gamefreak really isn't giving mons the speed they need to actually sweep, Blacephalon, Thunderous, and Gengar are all victims of this, they would be monsters with specs but are too slow to execute a sweep and things like Koko, Greninja and Dragapult halt them in their tracks, if a mon is GOOD in my eyes they MUST have a speed at 122 or more, 120 honestly doesn't cut it,

like when was the last time you've seen the traditional swords dance chomp sweep??

it's funny that you mention garchomp because one of the reasons he was banned to ubers in his debut gen was specifically his trolly speed tier of 102 giving him an edge over the mons with the then-coveted 100 speed

nowadays, there are enough faster pokémon that such a speed tier is irrelevant, and that speed creep would actually be worse without priority moves. the offensive capability of the average mon has risen beyond the defensive capability, and sometimes the only way to survive is to hit first. if priority moves don't exist then the speed tiers might actually become the actual tiers of any metagame.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

A bit late, but im glad you respectfully noticed me, after I texted you a year ago

In regards to your statement, I meant in the sense of "oh he has X Pokémon in the back that can sucker punch or bullet etc" the priority move schtick is the only reason why Mega Sceptile is so many tiers below and my Mega Mawile is even so high lol, it just seems hyperbolically cheap, and not fun to play around, especially since your faster and the other guy isn't,

and you said it yourself, he wasn't gonna beat you but had a mon that could hit you despite not having any speed

It's a bit disingenuous to single out Aqua Jet Azumarill as "I would have won if you didn't have this mon with this move". Azumarill is just as restrictive to Volcarona as Blissey. Or Heatran/Latios/Toxapex/Gastrodon depending on what coverage you don't run. Or Scarf Garchomp. Or Focus Sash Alakazam.

All of these Pokemon can completely shut down Volcarona, but pretty much any Pokemon has other Pokemon that shut it down, even the busted ones. It's the job of the player to build a team of six that can fill those holes, plan out a win condition based on what they know about their opponent's team, and then pilot their team in such a way as to coax their opponent into exposing the threats to the win condition so that they can be removed or otherwise crippled into a non-threat.

To put it more simply, saying Mega Sceptile is bad because priority moves exist is like saying Abomasnow is bad because Fire-types exist.

 

[CPU]

A bit late, but im glad you respectfully noticed me, after I texted you a year ago

In regards to your statement, I meant in the sense of "oh he has X Pokémon in the back that can sucker punch or bullet etc" the priority move schtick is the only reason why Mega Sceptile is so many tiers below and my Mega Mawile is even so high lol, it just seems hyperbolically cheap, and not fun to play around, especially since your faster and the other guy isn't,

and you said it yourself, he wasn't gonna beat you but had a mon that could hit you despite not having any speed

Mega Mawile also has a better typing than Mega Sceptile and is just absurdly threatening because of Huge Power (plus its rather expansive coverage).

Meanwhile, Lightningrod isn't useless on Mega Sceptile but it certainly feels a little redundant on a Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Electric.

 

[Ironmage]

Mega Mawile also has a better typing than Mega Sceptile and is just absurdly threatening because of Huge Power (plus its rather expansive coverage).

Meanwhile, Lightningrod isn't useless on Mega Sceptile but it certainly feels a little redundant on a Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Electric.

And Intimidate still gets its effect of if you Mega instantly, Sceptile lacks a good boosting move for its higher offense, low Speed can also be patched by Trick Room in doubles, ...

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

It's a bit disingenuous to single out Aqua Jet Azumarill as "I would have won if you didn't have this mon with this move". Azumarill is just as restrictive to Volcarona as Blissey. Or Heatran/Latios/Toxapex/Gastrodon depending on what coverage you don't run. Or Scarf Garchomp. Or Focus Sash Alakazam.

All of these Pokemon can completely shut down Volcarona, but pretty much any Pokemon has other Pokemon that shut it down, even the busted ones. It's the job of the player to build a team of six that can fill those holes, plan out a win condition based on what they know about their opponent's team, and then pilot their team in such a way as to coax their opponent into exposing the threats to the win condition so that they can be removed or otherwise crippled into a non-threat.

To put it more simply, saying Mega Sceptile is bad because priority moves exist is like saying Abomasnow is bad because Fire-types exist.

Again we're talking about priority moves not speedier mons, I'm just pointing out Aqua Jet wasn't Azumarill's speed or anything it was one move it had,

Yes other mons you bought up halt Volcanrona but we aren't talking about them, we're talking about how priority moves go against the epithet of speed in pokemon and ruins avenues for comebacks both you and the opponent in the inverse would feel robbed of a win. i've dealt with priority spam, and things like Sucker Punch mindgames especially aren't fun on paper, not to mention the pursuit trap in as that comes along

>To put it more simply, saying Mega Sceptile is bad because priority moves exist is like saying Abomasnow is bad because Fire-types exist.

That's definitely taking me out of context, I said Mega Sceptile was one of the victims of this, along with several other non-mega mons, but Sceptile was in UU but Mamoswine Ice Shard pressure (pun intended) contributed to it being RU, Mamoswine has an insane amount of weaknesses but it's biggest problem is obviously its speed and that even a slowbro can waltz in and use flamethrower on it

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

it's funny that you mention garchomp because one of the reasons he was banned to ubers in his debut gen was specifically his trolly speed tier of 102 giving him an edge over the mons with the then-coveted 100 speed

nowadays, there are enough faster pokémon that such a speed tier is irrelevant, and that speed creep would actually be worse without priority moves. the offensive capability of the average mon has risen beyond the defensive capability, and sometimes the only way to survive is to hit first. if priority moves don't exist then the speed tiers might actually become the actual tiers of any metagame.

Yea, speed creep has been such a huge problem since Greninja came along, Chomps best days were in Gen 5 to early Gen 6, Gengar as well,

If they actually gave Chomp dragon dance then it'd be formidable and actually do something, I don't know why are they are so stubborn, they gave it scale shot but it doesn't do much since it softens up Chomp due to the def drop and your wasting a move slot given scale shot doesn't hit multiple times and doesn't have much power,

I can't understand a mon that's 100 speed and 115-120 SP ATK or ATK which is mons like cool mons Zapdos and etc

if its scarfed it does too little damage, but Specs is beneficial but if the opposition is speedy your kinda cooked, an example is Thunderous both incarnate and therian,

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

Mega Mawile also has a better typing than Mega Sceptile and is just absurdly threatening because of Huge Power (plus its rather expansive coverage).

Meanwhile, Lightningrod isn't useless on Mega Sceptile but it certainly feels a little redundant on a Pokémon with a 4x resistance to Electric.

Yea, it should've gotten adaptability hands down, its design compliments it as well as its gaining extra appendages, I thought they were giving it nasty plot like they did with hydreigon?? I guess not, it does have work up but +1 SP Attack is nothing compared to +2

While its not "useless" its best in doubles with a discharger, if your in singles your opponent is very very likely to read that if lets say your swapping out your Pelliper on your opponent sending out Koko and they go for Dazzling Gleam or HP Ice onto our lovely Green lizard friend

 

[Antihaxxer]

>(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

Boy oh boy,

Priority moves are absolute cancer and I'm tired of pretending that its not, and its ridiculous that only 2 Pokemon(Technically 3 with Lele) have abilities to counter this, Bruxish with Dazzling and Tsareena with Queensly Majesty, that are both ZU ATM iirc

My solution would be a temporary metagame where mons like Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Pheromosa, Polteageist have the ability to reign free without Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Mach Punch etc,

Don't forget Farigiraf with Armor Tail ! With both Hyper Voice, Trick Room, decent typing and nice stats, and the ability to stop Priority moves in VGC, that giraf is amazing!

 

[Castersvarog]

Both Bruxish and Tsareena are NU and then there is also Farigiraf in PU which is actually quite a good pokemon in VGC (y’know, the main format they balance around?)

Plus there’s the new Upper hand that straight up counters priority moves.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

And of course, there's the fact common Priority moves that can be used anytime, e.g., Aqua Jet and its clones, only have 40 BP, so it's not going to OHKO a decently bulky Pokémon.
Grassy Glide Grassy Surge Rillaboom is an outlier, but I suppose this is balanced by both Grass being a meh offensive type and the fact you can remove Grassy Terrain with Defog or another Terrain. In theory.

And speaking of Priority, is it true there are zero -2 priority moves when every other bracket from +5 (Helping Hand) to -7 (Trick Room) is used? That's a weird oversight.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

And of course, there's the fact common Priority moves that can be used anytime, e.g., Aqua Jet and its clones, only have 40 BP, so it's not going to OHKO a decently bulky Pokémon.
Grassy Glide Grassy Surge Rillaboom is an outlier, but I suppose this is balanced by both Grass being a meh offensive type and the fact you can remove Grassy Terrain with Defog or another Terrain. In theory.

And speaking of Priority, is it true there are zero -2 priority moves when every other bracket from +5 (Helping Hand) to -7 (Trick Room) is used? That's a weird oversight.

But what about things like Sucker Punch or 40 bp priority moves with Technician? or adaptability stab just curious, food for thought, all good faith, I probably should've made it clear I was refering to that mainly as well, cause since

Azumarill + Aqua Jet = Stab
Scizor + Bullet Punch = Stab
Bisharp + Sucker Punch, 70 BP and the opponent has to use an attack move but its strong STAB after Swords Dance etc

 

[Axiemeister]

And speaking of Priority, is it true there are zero -2 priority moves when every other bracket from +5 (Helping Hand) to -7 (Trick Room) is used? That's a weird oversight.

when gen 3 expanded the concept of priority further, they left +2 and -2 vacant. the fact +2 eventually got moves on it makes me think they did this on purpose, much like moderators leave reserved posts at the beginning of a thread. i guess there's just less ideas for negative priority moves that would be good

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

when gen 3 expanded the concept of priority further, they left +2 and -2 vacant. the fact +2 eventually got moves on it makes me think they did this on purpose, much like moderators leave reserved posts at the beginning of a thread. i guess there's just less ideas for negative priority moves that would be good

I think the idea of a negative priority U-Turn/Volt Switch would be pretty neat, after all things like Dragon Tail and Roar exist so why not the inverse

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I think the idea of a negative priority U-Turn/Volt Switch would be pretty neat, after all things like Dragon Tail and Roar exist so why not the inverse

Teleport has essentially been that since Gen 8, seeing use on defensive Pokemon like Clefable and Blissey that appreciate a way to preserve momentum and sponge damage for their incoming teammates.

There definitely is more design space to explore, though. Unfortunately, negative-priority moves have pretty much exclusively been viable on defensive mons, because attacking moves have experienced so much power creep over the years that a hypothetical negative-priority attack would need to be obscenely strong to be worth using.

 

[Hugin]

Teleport has essentially been that since Gen 8, seeing use on defensive Pokemon like Clefable and Blissey that appreciate a way to preserve momentum and sponge damage for their incoming teammates.

There definitely is more design space to explore, though. Unfortunately, negative-priority moves have pretty much exclusively been viable on defensive mons, because attacking moves have experienced so much power creep over the years that a hypothetical negative-priority attack would need to be obscenely strong to be worth using.

There are a few negative priority attacks. And checking exactly how many there are left me very annoyed.

Hide

(Note that Beak Blast sits at -3 in games where it exists).
The mechanic for Avalanche/Revenge is "If you get hit, this move is more effective". That's roughly the same as the mechanic for Shell Trap(this move only works if you get hit) and similar to Beak Blast, which hits no matter what but burns the oppt if you get hit. They should all be at -3 with Focus Punch at -4. That way Avalanche can interrupt Focus Punch, while all of the "Come on and hit me" moves are the same priority. I know this doesn't matter, since nothing uses any of those moves competitively and only rarely in-game, but there's no reason for Shell Trap to work one way and Avalanche work some other way.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

There are a few negative priority attacks. And checking exactly how many there are left me very annoyed.

Hide

View attachment 577979

(Note that Beak Blast sits at -3 in games where it exists).
The mechanic for Avalanche/Revenge is "If you get hit, this move is more effective". That's roughly the same as the mechanic for Shell Trap(this move only works if you get hit) and similar to Beak Blast, which hits no matter what but burns the oppt if you get hit. They should all be at -3 with Focus Punch at -4. That way Avalanche can interrupt Focus Punch, while all of the "Come on and hit me" moves are the same priority. I know this doesn't matter, since nothing uses any of those moves competitively and only rarely in-game, but there's no reason for Shell Trap to work one way and Avalanche work some other way.

Eh, Shell Trap is weird. It has negative priority if it fails, but if it succeeds it goes off immediately after the attack that triggered it. Which doesn't matter in singles but in doubles you can do stuff like fast Bulldoze into Weakness Policy into firing off a +2 Shell Trap before the opponent can act.

Would have been cool if it went off immediately after being hit, like before any of the activating attack's secondary effects go off. Imagine trying to U-turn and getting exploded before you can even switch.

 

[pika pal]

Would have been cool if it went off immediately after being hit, like before any of the activating attack's secondary effects go off. Imagine trying to U-turn and getting exploded before you can even switch.

Which SHOULD be how it works since the concept is the Shell is rigged and explodes on contact, i.e. as the Pokemon hits but before it retreats. Like theoretically the attack should work like Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin damage (albeit it's an attack move for Phys instead of passive damage for Contact moves)