Little Cup Initial Banlist Discussion

[Elevator Music]

Unless Libelldra's calc is messed up I'm finding that Oran Berry is actually a better item than Evolution Stone on the Zuruggu that I posted.... (except against attacks that do just around 23 HP to Zuruggu like Adamant Komatana LO Brick Break lol)

I think that dispels that Evolution Stone argument in Zuruggu's case, though Evolution Stone is probably an item people want to look at still.....

 

[iss]

Phione can't turn into Manaphy in any way. Rotom can turn into Rotom-A.

 

[Naxte]

Phione can't turn into Manaphy in any way. Rotom can turn into Rotom-A.

Irrelevant. Rotom doesn't evolve into Rotom-A: it shifts forms and can shift back. If we're already changing the rules to count the ability to change forms as an "evolution" of sort should the Pokemon otherwise fulfill the LC criteria (a change done for essentially no other reason than just to allow Rotom), then why not also change them in such a way to allow a Pokemon that was clearly meant to be Manaphy's pre-evolution, but wasn't actually given that ability because Game Freak apparently wanted to maintain the whole "legendaries don't evolve into or from anything" thing? The point is, if we're changing the rules to make an exception for Rotom, there's no reason at all to just stop there, as it's no more a first form than Phione is. In other words, if we're going to make a loophole for Rotom, then there's no reason to not make one for Phione as well, as it's just as much of a pre-evo as Rotom is (read: not one at all according to the game, but one that many people consider to be one nonetheless because it basically has all the traits of one, save one technicality).

In any case though, this is how I was hoping you'd respond, as it illustrates my reasoning for how I feel on this issue: LC rules should not be changed at all, to allow a particular Pokemon, as that makes the line too murky. Right now, it's clear what should be allowed and what shouldn't. However, you allow Rotom on a technicality, and then you'll have people like myself who would want a similar technicality made for Phione. From there though, is where the problem starts: some people would still only want Rotom allowed but not Phione, the people that want both allowed still would, and there would surely be a few people that want Phione allowed but not Rotom, as well.

The point is, allowing them at all would just really destroy the clarity on what a LC-legal Pokemon is, as whether Rotom, Phione, and whatever other similar Pokemon GF introduces in the future should count are just pure opinion, and varies on the person, with each one having good reasons for what they believe should be added in under special rules.

To me, it just seems much simpler to avoid the issue entirely by avoiding opinions, arbitrary rules & distinctions and the like (as neither a ruleset that allows just Rotom or one designed to allow both Rotom and Phione would be better or more fair than the other), and letting the game decide, by using the Miracle of Evolution (pre-evo stone) item as a check to the other rules. If it works on the Pokemon, it's a first stage/form/whatever, and can be obtained at Level 5, it's fine, otherwise, it's out. As it turns out, the item doesn't work on either Rotom or Phione, so I still feel that neither should be allowed, but that's me.

 

[amphouse]

Phione can't turn into Manaphy in any way. Rotom can turn into Rotom-A.

By your logic, we make as well include land shaymin. Laugh, go ahead, that's the point. Rotom does not evolve, and that's that. It can change its form. So can shaymin. I wouldn't allow shaymin, that's my opinion. Same applies to rotom.

 

[iss]

Shaymin can't hatch from an egg. What don't you understand?

 

[Darkamber8828]

Shaymin can't hatch from an egg. What don't you understand?

For a pokemon to be useable in Little Cup, it must be an evolution.

Evolutions
1. Are able to become another pokemon (like, with different Base Stats)
1.1 Are unable to return to a previous form
2. Are able to hatch from an egg
3. Get a boost from Pre-Evolution Stone

Apparently, violation of one criteria means the pokemon is not useable in Little Cup.

Rotom violates 1.1 and 3, Shaymin violates 1.1, 2, and 3, Phione violates 1 (and therefore 1.1) and 3, Giratina violates 1.1 and 3.

No, no, no, no.

 

[amphouse]

I like your list, darkamber. I think that should clarify things.

I want to start a disscussion about an actual pre-evo; Komatana. Dark/Steel is probably it's biggest asset, but it's also a huge weakness because it dies to fighting.
It's stats are good, but all of them(accept sp. atk, for some reason) are worse than sneasel's stats, so we can't instantly ban it because of stats. All those resists, though... what do you think? I don't feel it should be banned.

 

[Screw-On Head]

Scyther is the only un-evolved pokemon in the game that has the same base stat total (500) as the pokemon it evolves into. Every other pokemon increases base stat total when it evolves. Shouldn't it be banned on this alone?

 

[yiran]

Since I haven't really played Gen 4 LC but I have played Gen 5 LC I'll make some points. Just to clarify, I know we're not using PO's stats for ourselves, but I'm just, as said before, making some points. I searched the Gen 4 Ubers (Misdreavus, Sneasel, Tangela, Yanma, etc (Scyther wasn't included)) and they weren't used as much. Probably people trying out new pokemon.

http://91.121.107.186/LC Wifi/index.html

Dokkora is first because it has that fast and powerful Mach Punch
Kojofuu is second on the usage. Probably because it's got Fake Out. And a ton of other moves. It's also good as a lead with Inner Focus.
Zuruggu is the other new poke that has Fake Out. Quite bulky with good typing, I'll add.
Pururiru is probably just a Burungeru replacement.
Hippopotas is the Sandstorm starter.

Well, in any case, I'm not seeing new pokemon to be banned. As for old pokemon...

Scyther - Do I really need to explain? Just look at his stats.

Sneasel - This guy is fast and strong. Over the top. Also has a good movepool to abuse his stats.

Yanma - Speed Boost really explains it all. Nothing can outrun it after a few turns and then it kills everything.

Pre-evolution Stone - Seriously, walls would benefit so much from this that it's not funny. It's a free cosmic power up, and that's extremely useful for pokemon that have access to Instant Recovery that don't need leftovers.

Berry Juice - You basically heal 100% of your health. No thanks.

 

[Loves_Eo]

I think Zuruggu really needs to be banned. He has DD + 2 amazing stabs + Fake Out and respectable bulk along with overconfidence. He rapes pretty well all leads in LC by his stabs alone and is a great sweeper with DD + Overconfidence. That is, he deals with 4th Gen Leads quite well and from what I see a couple of 4th Gen leads as well.

Also, we should really stop discussing whether Rotom should be allowed in LC, because it was on that list for use as an example, and for another, why the hell we'd allow an OU pokemon in LC is beyond me.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

OK, this thread exploded after I fell asleep, so I'll respond to iss' list as i seems to be the major point now.

Pokemon:

Scyther - I support this ban, so no comments here.

Sneasel - See above.

Tangela - See above.

Yanma - See above.

Meditite - This deserves testing. No I'm serious. With Pururiru around, its HJK usage will suffer severe restriction. Besides, its not like super fast or anything, so its not impossible to revenge kill. I reiterate, this deservs a test.

Murkrow - Murkrow deserves testing. He's not impossible to kill, and doesn't have any degree of ridiculous bulk to compensate for being outprioritised.

Zuruggu - I can't believe you're serious when you say this. Sure, Zuruggu wreaks havoc with a single turn of set up, but so does frikkin' Moguryuu ad I don't see him on this banlist. Zuruggu's only priority is Fake Out, which doesn't really assist it in setting up, which is the basis of your argument.

Komatana - Komatana is no Scyther. The SD set is powerful yes, and you're pretty much forcing a ban of Komatana by putting Dokkora on your banlist. If you say that nothing can switch in without perfect prediction on Komatana or Zuruggu, congrats, LO Omanyte from Gen 4 says hello, so would you suggest we ban him in Gen 4?

Dokkora - If you're going to give that argument about "cannot be resisted late game", I really don't know what to say. Any sweeper can be unresisted if its checks are removed, so would you suggest we ban all sweepers?

Clamperl
Omanyte
Shellder
Purotooga

Really? Just because of Shell Smash, you're going to ban all of them? I mean, seriously iss, Shell Smash isn't broken, it leaves these Pokemon incredibly weak to priority, which is everywhere in LC. This resembles the period around Belly Drum Poliwag, priority just kills these things.

Rotom: Unban on technical reasons - Can't evolve, so shouldn't br unbanned.

Combee (M): Unban on technical reasons - See above.

Items:

Berry Juice - Ok this was broken in Gen 4, but it deserves an OFFICIAL test for Gen 5. Please don't bring PO into this, you guys had it banned really early, well before the current "metagame" had even developed.

Deepseatooth (if Clamperl is not banned) - See above. DST deserves a test.

Evolution Stone - "lol". Evo stone is by no means broken, things can sill bulldoze through these Pokeon. Besides, it is a way to revenge kill SHell Smash users. It deserves more time.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Scyther is the only un-evolved pokemon in the game that has the same base stat total (500) as the pokemon it evolves into. Every other pokemon increases base stat total when it evolves. Shouldn't it be banned on this alone?

Well, there are approximately 1.2 people who advocate Scyther being in Little Cup OU, so...exceptions to these rules can rot in Ubers.

Moguryuu isn't that great, but otherwise, I agree with Destiny Warrior.

Is the general consensus that Missy is solidly not-uber? As lucid as someone awake on caffeine at midnight, I can't see what's changed for it. Komatana gets Sub-->Wowed, since it only runs Sucker Punch, every other new Dark-type is dealt with similarly, bar Zuruggu, but you're not supposed to use Ghosts to beat it.

 

[v]

Alright, no more Rotom discussion. I allowed it because I thought we might be able to quickly reach a consensus, but it turned out to mostly just be rehashed arguments repeated over and over again. Here is the LC staff's official stance on the matter:

A Little Cup-legal Pokemon must undergo evolution, which is defined as an irreversible process in which a Pokemon becomes a different Pokemon and is explicitly labeled by the game as evolution. It must also not have a pre-evolutionary form.

Rotom fails to satisfy any of these requirements. Same to Phione. BST is not a factor, nor should it ever be, so Scyther is "elligible," but from the looks of it, it's not long for the metagame.

 

[Venser]

First off, can we stop the discussion of whether Rotom or Phione deserve to be integrated into this metagame? They both do not fit the criteria. I'd rather wait until we determine a banlist to add new 'mons into the metagame.

@nighthawk: I do not believe DeepSeaTooth on CLamperl deserves an initial ban, and here's why:

Even after a Shell reak, Clamperl sits at 26 speed, and more importantly, has NO priority. This makes it easy pickings for Gunk, who is totally immune to one of its move, and can kill it off with priority due to its lowered defenses. Gunk is ALREADY very common, and you're going to need him for Speed Boost Carvanha(according to Serebii, he's available, and the UT thread doesn't seem to have been updated properly...) anyway, so it isn't really overcentralizing.

This post makes the point I was going to make. IMO the only Shell Breaker that needs to be banned is Purotooga and Shellder due to their access to priority.

Most people might laugh at this post, but I see it as a way to move Gen V LC forward quickly and efficently:

Pokemon:

Scyther [B]Yes, unquestionably.[/B]
Sneasel [B]Same as Scyther.[/B]
Tangela [B]Same, especially with the possiblility of infinite sun.[/B]
Yanma [B]UGH go away. Definite ban.[/B]
Meditite [B]Priority makes this a beast. Definite ban/first test.[/B]
Murkrow [B]Deserves testing, but not an immediate ban.[/B]
Zuruggu [B]Annoying, but deserves a test. Removal of Pre-evo stone hampers this a little.[/B]
Komatana [B]I need to test this, I don't have an opinion yet.[/B]
Dokkora [B]Woo, does this need a ban. It's in the top of the stats and the battle's I've watched show this to be dominant.[/B]
Clamperl [B]Lack of Priority hurts this, and if we ban Deepseatooth I can see this sticking around.[/B]
Omanyte [B]Needs a test.[/B]
Shellder [B]One of the earliest tests. Shell Smash+Priority+Skill Link Abuse=Suspect.[/B]
Purotooga [B]Deserves an immediate ban, from what I've seen.[/B]

Rotom: Unban on technical reasons [B]No. It doesn't fit the criteria.[/B]
Combee (M): Unban on technical reasons [B]W/E[/B]

Items:

Berry Juice [B]YES[/B]
Deepseatooth (if Clamperl is not banned) [B]YES[/B]
Evolution Stone [B]YES[/B]

 

[Darkamber8828]

Dokkora is a definite ban?

Doesn't have nearly the same stats as Machop, sans 100 acc Dynamicpunch, plus Mach Punch?

If we banned every pokemon at the top of the tier, we would eventually run out of pokemon, right?

 

[v]

Stop saying "this needs a test." This thread is not for talking about what needs a test. This thread is about what is undoubtedly broken and requires no test to ban. Future posts that say "I think this Pokemon warrants testing" will be deleted and warned. I have edited the OP to reflect this.

 

[Banryu]

Most people might laugh at this post, but I see it as a way to move Gen V LC forward quickly and efficently:

Murkrow: With Brave Bird and Sucker Punch as well as very good speed, there is no real counter to Murkrow. Combine that with very good Special Attack and access to Heat Wave, and Murkrow is just overwhelming. Mischievous Heart can also be used for a priority Substitute and Roost.
I don't know that Murkrow would still be as much of an issue nowadays... Dratini's Extremespeed will beat it after a boost from a Dragon Dance or a Choice Band (I think), and there are a lot more things now than before that pose a threat to Murkrow. Defensively-bulky Rock-types like Onix and Aron aren't easily beaten by him, as each resists two of the mentioned attacks and is only neutral to the last... these are just a few examples, perhaps not even the best ones, but the bottom line is that I don't think Murkrow is immediately broken. :0

Zuruggu: Zuruggu is incredibly bulky and with access to Dragon Dance, Amnesia, and Bulk Up is almost impossible to wall. 130 BP HJK is also overwhelming, and when you take into account 75 BP Drain Punch and a STAB Crunch, it's not a free switch-in for Ghosts and Psychics either. Overall, I feel Zuruggu is incredibly broken.
I agree with Dracoyoshi on this one. Zuruggu needs Prevo Stone to be seriously broken... without that or BJ, it is still threatening, but not brokenly unbeatable.

Dokkora: While Ghosts might wall it fairly soundly, they can be removed by Komatana or Stunky. Once they are out of the way, Dokkora easily sweeps with Mach Punch and a Rock move. A Guts Mach Punch is almost impossible to wall unless you are being really defensive. Late-game, Dokkora has almost no counters.
Underlined stuff is what I have a problem with.Replace 'Ghosts' with certain Pokemon, and the same is true of any sweeper in Little Cup, or any other metagame, for that matter. If it requires help to be 'broken', then it isn't broken.

Rotom, Combee (M): I'm going to unban Rotom as now there's a huge difference between Rotom and Rotom-A: typing. I feel this is enough to be a substitute for evolution. Combee (M) is just silly, so I have no issues with it being unbanned.
......okay, Vader said no more Rotom discussion. Fine. I honestly think it's completely absurd that it was even brought up in the first place... >____>

Evolution Stone: This makes defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery almost unbeatable without multiple crits, especially those who can set up while recovering off damage (see: Zuruggu, Lileep). Lileep was very annoying and difficult to beat without Evolution Stone, but with it it is almost unbeatable.
...actually, I think this is a good argument for this cause. My concern with Prevo Stone is that it doesn't break the multitude of other Pokemon that can use it, so is it broken if it breaks one or two keystone Pokemon? So what do you ban, the Prevo Stone that breaks one or two Pokemon, or the Pokemon that it breaks? I honestly have no idea how to address that.

I had a lot of comments on this, so I just added mine into the quote in green letters.

v I can appreciate the sentiment behind this, however, I think you're going about it the wrong way. Smogon isn't a monarchy, it's a community, and the community makes the decisions as a group. :0 I definitely agree that suspect tests should be kept to a minimum in LC (and OU as well) this time around, but I honestly don't see the sense in banning top-tier Pokemon only on the grounds that they COULD be broken.

I'd just like a last word here. I really want Gen V LC not to be like Gen IV OU, where suspect tests were done almost non-stop. What do we want? We want a stable metagame that is fun to play. Put it this way: if you don't want a man to be upset with politics, don't give him two sides to an argument. Give him one. Better yet, give him none. Do we really want to overburden ourselves with suspect tests? I certainly don't, and I hope you'll come to agree with me too.

We can do whatever we like about Rotom later. Right now I'm just trying to get it technically unbanned.

Also, these two quotes are kind of contradictory, just sayin'.
(Unban Rotom, then reban it again when we find out it's broken? Wut? I thought you wanted to keep suspect testing to a minimum, dude. :0 )

 

[Heysup]

@ iss's list;

this is completely the wrong idea. We need to be 100% sure about any specific minor possibilities that a Pokemon may not be broken. The Pokemon you listed, while I have actually played with them, you really can't think that they are broken. I mean think about it, Dokkora is very similar to Machop. It has a trade off, Dynamic Punch vs Mach Punch. I can't even believe you put it on your list, the fact that it was even considered is concerning, but putting it on your list.....

Shell Smash is overrated as fuck. You can't possibly think that in the most priority intense metagame in the existence of Pokemon that any move reducing you to -any defenses will be overpowering.

I severely oppose that banlist.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

When you have a Pokémon that packs a punch even in non-little cup, it is a given that Scyther should be banned.

 

[iss]

@Heysup: I don't think we'll completely adopt my banlist. However, I was shocked to see so many broken Pokemon absent from other people's banlists. My post was simply a reminder to the community that we don't want endless testing. I'd rather test something to be LC OU than test it to be LC Uber.

 

[Heysup]

@Heysup: I don't think we'll completely adopt my banlist. However, I was shocked to see so many broken Pokemon absent from other people's banlists. My post was simply a reminder to the community that we don't want endless testing. I'd rather test something to be LC OU than test it to be LC Uber.

We don't test from Ubers to OU, so what you're stating kind of makes no sense. You put Pokemon on your banlist based on something that we aren't doing. Do I need to point out how illogical that is...?

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I personally tested Shell Smash on a team with dual screens, and trust me, its overrated as hell. Too frail, and Meditite/Gunk destroy almost all the Shell Smahsers with Fake Out + priority.

 

[wyndamn]

I think that i´ll agree with ISS list since is the most viable for me too of all that i have seen here, even if there are somethings that are not too viable but most of them look OK.

 

[Banryu]

Rotom can't evolve.
I... won't bother.

Yeah, don't. :0 You'll get in trouble with Vader. Besides, the fact that he even suggested Rotom in the first place rather speaks for itself.... >___>

Back on topic, then... ...I basically have little else to contribute, other than opposing certain ban choices. For the most part, I agree with the more conservative ban lists such as those put forth by Heysup, SDS and Vader... I believe I'll be more inclined to vote for fewer Pokemon, but Vader's (the smallest) list did not include Berry Juice, which I am strongly opposed to.

So this is the list of initial bans I'd most like to see, I think:

Pokemon:
- Scyther
- Sneasel
 
Items:
- Berry Juice

I know little about Tangela or Yanma except by word of mouth and theorymonning, so I'm excluding them from my list... They sound quite strong, but I basically just don't know. Scyther and Sneasel, however, I don't feel I need to know much about to see that they're banned, and I experienced Berry Juice's brokenness firsthand, and feel very strongly that it should be banned as well.

As far as iss's 'message' goes, I agree that I would also like the period of suspect-testing and banning in the LC metagame to go by quickly, but 'quickly' to me doesn't mean 'let's avoid testing as much as possible or better yet, altogether'. :0 We can cross THAT bridge when we get there, but for now, I think Vader is right... this is not the place for it.

 

[Crux]

Pokemon:

Scyther
Sneasel

Items:

None

I’m echoing Vader here.

The point of this thread is to discuss what we think should be our initial ban list for Gen V LC, and to be honest, Scyther and Sneasel are the only Pokémon broken enough to warrant an auto ban.

Scyther is completely over the top. Scyther has the best stat spread in LC. It combines raw power with insane defense. It has the ability to boost that offensive power with Swords Dance and has access to Technician boosted priority in the form of Quick Attack in order to deal with anything that out speeds it (and even that is difficult to do.) Give it a Scarf and it can spam STAB U-Turn, OHKOing a great number of Pokémon. It is nearly impossible to deal with.

Sneasel is in pretty much the same vein as Scyther, but it exchanges power and bulk for more speed. With access to Swords Dance, STAB priority in the form of Ice Shard and the highest unboosted speed in Little Cup, Sneasel is also a serious threat.

The reason my ban list is so small is because in my opinion, Scyther and Sneasel are the only Pokémon good enough to warrant an auto ban, without even being tested. Yanma, Tangela and whatever else you put forward, may well be broken. In fact, they probably are, but are they good enough to deserve an instant ban?

I am not saying that the Pokémon that are not on my ban list should be tested; I am saying that they are not good enough to be banned without being tested, if that makes sense. In my opinion, the only Pokémon that are good enough to be placed on an initial ban list are the ones that I have mentioned. The same goes for the items that others have put forward, they may well break some Pokémon, but that does not make them good enough to be placed on our initial ban list. In terms of Shell Break, I think it is overrated. After the defense drop, the user of the move is very easily revenge killed.

We are looking for a desirable metagame; that is what we are hoping to achieve by starting with a ban list. We have to decide what we want LC to be, and I don't particularly think that moving such a large number of Pokémon to Ubers is a good idea. As Vader said, the metagame which includes these Pokémon is easily palatable and playable. Personally, I quite enjoy the direction which it has taken with the inclusion of these "broken" Pokémon. It is both interesting and fun.

I don’t quite understand the direction which others have taken in regards to their proposed initial ban lists. It doesn’t make much sense to me to slap everything that has an Attack stat that is over 19 and/or has access to a boosting move and priority. We have dealt with things like this before, and whilst they may be broken, they are certainly not good enough to be banned straight away.

Whilst I would like to start this metagame with a completely clean slate, Scyther and Sneasel are simply too good. The others, as I've already said, may well be too much for LC; however they are simply not enough to warrant an instant ban.