Substitute/Swagger/T-Wave/Foul Play Liepard is just plain ridiculous. Using this strategy requires almost no skill at all. Smogon banned Sand Veil for having a 20% more likely chance to miss, but they won't ban Liepard for giving you a 75% chance to do absolutely nothing in one turn? Every time somebody sees a Liepard, they know the battle will be full of hax and annoying. Overall, I think the metagame would just be better without this hax monster.
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Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)
- Thread starter Raseri
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A few hours ago I faced FLCL's assist cat team on ladder (and the second time I just forfeited because fuck that). I didn't have Stealth Rock, one thing down. I had priority, two things. I had Taunt, that's three. And I only had one Pokemon FLCL could really set up Dark Pulse on. FLCL defeated me with only Liepard and by spamming Whirlwind, and getting a chance to sub and set up NP when Exeggutor came in. Sure it relied upon a lot of luck to get Exeggutor that many times but really he got it a lot less than he got other Pokemon. Unless you have like two Fake Out users and you're lucky with them (or all Pokemon that Liepard can't set up on, or Cradily, and have no SR) then really you're fucked. That's a lot of conditions to need to have to be able to get around it. Liepard's Swagger set, on the other hand, can be used by Purrloin and Murkrow just as effectively as when Liepard uses it (just slower). It also has lots of ways to get around it. If luck is against you, you lose Liepard, maybe get a few kills. It's a high risk high reward sort of set, because esp against physical attackers you risk a lot, but the reward is really good. Assistcat has no real risk in using it whatsoever, especially when it has the right sort of team built around it. The other special set on the other hand is really cool - the only special dark type at that speed tier, isn't broken because it can die to scarfers, Mach Punch, faster mons, etc and isn't reliant on whirlwind spamming to get what it needs. Then there's the pivot set, I haven't used it, but there is no way that set is broken, or banworthy from what I've heard of it. We bitch about swagger, sure, but it's not worth a ban, you can get around it. Assistcat... not really. so yea, I think Assist + Prankster should be banned here rather than Liepard.
Basically even if there's one thing Assistcat can set up on, you're pretty much fucked. Its high speed guarantees that it can outspeed and DPulse almost everything else once it's had a chance to set up NP a few times, which is impossible to stop at that point. :|
Basically even if there's one thing Assistcat can set up on, you're pretty much fucked. Its high speed guarantees that it can outspeed and DPulse almost everything else once it's had a chance to set up NP a few times, which is impossible to stop at that point. :|
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I might actually try to get reqs this time since we only needs 85 matches with at least a 75% win/loss ratio. To be honest, that's stupidly easy with Assist Liepard teams based on my previous experiences. I'm not a great player at all, yet I played somewhere around 100 matches in the course of about a week last month with that team (with probably 8 or 9 different alts) and lost less than 10 matches. Ironically, the worst games were lower on the ladder against players who ran no hazards at all (which became nearly non-existent as I climbed up the ladder), and even those could still be played around between the Switcheroo users, Haunter/Drifblim's Destiny Bond, Liepards natural offense, and possible Ditto sweeps. Well, the absolute worst were against other Liepard teams, but that's another nightmare altogether, lol. I have to say, these Assist teams are incredibly devoid of skill. Some teams match up well against them, some teams don't, but if you get a good matchup, you really have to choke to mess up a Liepard sweep. I'm not sure what the final ban choices would be, whether a ban/restriction on Assist or a straight-up Liepard ban, but if I can get reqs, I'll definitely be voting for some sort of ban or restriction.
I'll try to get more involved in the discussion in the next couple of days, as many of the comments in this thread are things that I have addressed in past occasions and wouldn't mind responding to again.
I'll try to get more involved in the discussion in the next couple of days, as many of the comments in this thread are things that I have addressed in past occasions and wouldn't mind responding to again.
Except the Sand Veil users don't have worse defensive stats than the likes of Rufflet and Piplup. The thing wth Swagger Liepard is that anything that isn't Wartortle or Bastiodon can 2HKO it, while most offensive Pokemon can easily OHKO it, and given the greater than 50% chance the opponent has of attacking through Swagger on the first turn, the odds aren't exactly in Liepard's favor. It's not even as hax-y as Togekiss, Jirachi, and Shaymin-S are in their respective tiers.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-cat-is-fine-too.3488669/
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-nu-49005
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-nu-48877
These should be included in the OP, as I think it will really help everyone to understand what is happening, (all credit to FLCL for making these). For people who don't understand the frustration with assist cat your homework is to watch these two replays and look at this RMT, as it will really help to clarify what people exactly think may be broken/uncompetitve/annoying af. This isn't meant to overstep my bounds or mini-mod or w/e, but I just think that people should be informed about what they are posting about.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-nu-49005
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oriserver-nu-48877
These should be included in the OP, as I think it will really help everyone to understand what is happening, (all credit to FLCL for making these). For people who don't understand the frustration with assist cat your homework is to watch these two replays and look at this RMT, as it will really help to clarify what people exactly think may be broken/uncompetitve/annoying af. This isn't meant to overstep my bounds or mini-mod or w/e, but I just think that people should be informed about what they are posting about.
I believe this officially counts as theorymonning.
To name the number of Magic Coat mons that don't get immediately walloped by Liepard: Wigglytuff, Tentacool, Magnemite, Electrode, Meganium, Togetic, Dunsparce, Corsola, Kecleon, Bastiodon, Probopass, Audino, Leavanny (good for you Aasgier), Vanilluxe, Klang. End list. Notice I did not say 'beat Liepard' because a misprediction means a +2 Dark Pulse to the face, to which most of these Pokemon simply cannot respond quickly enough to.
Now the thing with countering ShufflePard isn't that it is impossible, it's just that it worsens your team's matchup against everything else. I mean look at the above list: which of these Magic Coaters are you going to actually use?? Electrode, Probopass and Bastiodon seem to be the only legitimate options; the other Pokemon are either outclassed by better Pokemon (Jynx > Vanilluxe), do not have the moveslot for it, or are just worthless in battle.
Let's say I've prepared for ShufflePard, but now I have to take the worsened matchup into account. For instance, I've devised a Magnet Pull Probopass with Magic Coat to put Ditto in a lose-lose situation. Once it enters battle, I spam Magic Coat. If it Earth Powers me, Ditto won't get Stealth Rock into play. If it uses Stealth Rock, I keep using Magic Coat until it runs out of its 5 PP and Struggles itself to death. Pretty win-win yeah? The problem with this plan is that Probopass has limited use against other teams. Stealth Rock and Magic Coat already occupy 2 moveslots, leaving 2 moveslots for Power Gem, Earth Power, Volt Switch, and Toxic. If I do not have Magic Coat, Probopass would be able to work fine using 3 of these 4 moves, but the moveslot syndrome really shows here. Power Gem allows Probopass to actually take on Charizard instead of Volt Switching and leaving my teammates in open fire (kill me~), Earth Power allows me to actually hurt the Steels I trap, Volt Switch allows Probo to grab momentum and pivot, and Toxic wears down bulky targets, notably SubBU Braviary (which I will also need Power Gem for). Having access to only 2 of these really lessen's Probo effectiveness, all because its one moveslot is used against like a singular threat.
Taunt Liepard could combat ShufflePard, but is a highly risky move outside of that, since Liepard usually attracts attacks like the plague and it dies to one hit. Not to mention it has no room for PivotPard of even SwagPard's sets, so you're likely using Taunt Pard just for the sake of stopping ShufflePard. Pretty much the same thing with Cradily who cannot use Storm Drain to combat non-Liepard teams.
Now I know this is fairly reminiscent to things like Sleep Talk Metang just for Jynx, but at least there are alternatives like saccing your other Pokemon to sleep or do a ballsy move like switch in Scarf Primeape into Lovely Kiss. However, if you don't have the anti-ShufflePard move (or Pokemon) on your team you will likely lose.
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They banned sand veil so that garchomp could be used in places other than ubers. As if your one garchomp counter happens to miss there ice move then you were screwed. Also there exist pokemon that are immune to confusion and pokemon that hold lum berries who can deal wth liepards.
Once I get reqs, which I am on track to do, almost halfway there, I'll test out divecats for a while. Much as I hate gimmicks...
Might give Purrloin a shot too.
(Also, finally faced a competently played Assist team for the first time about 40 matches in and lost miserably despite my best efforts. Reaffirms what I already knew through replays.)
Might give Purrloin a shot too.
(Also, finally faced a competently played Assist team for the first time about 40 matches in and lost miserably despite my best efforts. Reaffirms what I already knew through replays.)
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I use liepard with this strategy in RU with a NU team.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-54973092
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-54970856
Liepard Assit is broken, Ban Liepard + assist. Is broken in others tiers (RU, UU). In Ou is more easy to counter (Sandstorm, magic bouncers, hail, bulky pokemon with leftovers,....). But is dangerous. In Ubers is usable.
My UU team (and OU):
http://www.pokexperto.net/foros/index.php?topic=41234.0
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-54973092
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-54970856
Liepard Assit is broken, Ban Liepard + assist. Is broken in others tiers (RU, UU). In Ou is more easy to counter (Sandstorm, magic bouncers, hail, bulky pokemon with leftovers,....). But is dangerous. In Ubers is usable.
My UU team (and OU):
http://www.pokexperto.net/foros/index.php?topic=41234.0
Yeah, so I guess I've kind of changed my opinion about the assist+prankster or whirlwind or w/e ban, thanks to SilentVerse who made a really good argument at 1:30 am. Is assist + whirlwind broken on other things, definitely not, as they all get boned by any priority, kind of like riolu is not broken, you just need priority (granted this isn't stopped by sucker Punch). Is assist + prankster broken on other things? Maybe, but frankly not likely, as Purrloin is also out sped by Zangoose, Pinsir, and Samurott with priority, as well as getting boned even harder by Kanga and Swellow due to shit defenses. There is also the fact that Purrloin can't threaten to sweep at the end like Liepard can, as it will likely be KOed before it can get off that non-priority attacking move (it only has base 66 speed). If your team manages to prevent rocks from going up, you automatically win vs. Purrloin teams which isn't true of Liepard assist teams, as they can just shuffle you around to let Liepard set up. In fact, it is the combination of high base speed, nasty plot, prankster, and assist that breaks Liepard, a combination that nothing else really has. This is why I believe the logical choice is just to ban Liepard, not because of the swag play set, not because it is annoying, but because the only thing that has access to this broken combination is Liepard. If I decide to go for reqs I will try for it with a Purrloin assist team, as I think that will be the deciding factor if it is a liepard ban or a complex assist + whirlwind ban or w/e. Frankly I probably won't go for reqs though as I am busy with school, and it is kind of a slap in the face to "make reqs" and then be told you still don't get to vote. (Don't get me wrong ras, I totally get why reqs are the way they are, as in other tiers people qualify to vote that probably aren't even qualified to post in the forums, lol). So yeah, if you decide to go for reqs, please try a purrloin assist team, because if that isn't broken just ban the big cat.
Hold on a second. Currently Stealth Rocks are being used almost all the time due to their power and metagame defining nature. It's to the point where pokemon are insanely viable or complete trash just because of one move. This is undeniable. So when a strategy like Assistpard comes along and uses the omnipresence of rocks against the user you want to ban it? Assistpard is just an anti-metagame strategy that abuses the reliance of stealth rocks while doing seemingly nothing against a hazardless team. Just because a strategy fulfills a niche against the "normal" team doesn't mean it's broken.
Ban Liepard and you ban creative play.
Ban Liepard and you ban creative play.
Liepard can still set up Nasty Plots and Substitutes on various mons even if SR are not present, like Musharna, and can force those in through using AssistWhirlwind.
Yes, it is far more devastating against SR teams, but it can pull even wins against quite a few teams that don't have hazards because some mon is set-up bait for some reason.
Yes, it is far more devastating against SR teams, but it can pull even wins against quite a few teams that don't have hazards because some mon is set-up bait for some reason.
a) most people in this thread do not want to entirely ban liepard, just the assist strategy in some way
b) the assist strategy in question has one specific team associated with it, and you're pretty much required to use those six pokemon (with the exception of a choice between haunter/drifblim) since those 6 pokemon need to cover extremely specific roles in the metagame.
Do you consider many people using the exact same team creative? You might want to check your definitions there.
I agree with almost everything in this post. Purrloin is probably not broken with Prankster Assist as even fairly weak priority will wreck it (Swellow's quick attack is a guaranteed OHKO unless Purrloin has eviolite but no lefties recovery is awful on something that likes to sub so much). There aren't many teams that have to make any sort of wild adjustment to beat Purrloin easily. Even without priority Purrloin can't KO bulky crap like audino at +6 and pretty much everything will KO back. Basically Purrloin sucks ass.
It kinda boils down to if you want to just ban Liepard to avoid banning possibly non-broken stuff (like Assist Purrloin and Persian) or ban Prankster + Assist/Whirlwind to preserve Liepard. The second approach does keep Pivotpard and some of Liepard's other cool sets in the tier while removing all vestiges of Assist phazing but to be honest banning crap like Assist Persian and Purrloin just because they're not fun (and people like Pivotpard) might set a dangerous precedent.
Liepard with Assist + Prankster is broken. There are many Pokémon like Musharna or without Signal Beam Scald Alomomola, that if it is run against a team with the Assist strategy, it means almost authomatic loss as Liepard can keep using Whirlwind until that Pokémon comes and then set up Sub, Nasty Plot and sweep. It also makes entry hazards setters quite bad to run, and teams that want to counter this strategy aren't good in general in the NU metagame.
A team that depends on match-up to win or loss, and these match-ups are generally good for it, and even with bad match-ups it can play around them if well played and teams with Pokémon that trouble it aren't usually very good... It should clearly not exist, not even in RU and UU. There is also the fact that Assist vs Assist is ridiculous.
C'mon, let's run Choice Band Linoone in every team!
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Liepard: 249-294 (92.22 - 108.88%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
--Then the Liepard user just swithces out to Intimidate Arbok or their Ghost *facepalm*.
A team that depends on match-up to win or loss, and these match-ups are generally good for it, and even with bad match-ups it can play around them if well played and teams with Pokémon that trouble it aren't usually very good... It should clearly not exist, not even in RU and UU. There is also the fact that Assist vs Assist is ridiculous.
C'mon, let's run Choice Band Linoone in every team!
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Liepard: 249-294 (92.22 - 108.88%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
--Then the Liepard user just swithces out to Intimidate Arbok or their Ghost *facepalm*.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55059263
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55060131
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55063439
There was a 4th battle where I beat a Kangaskhan because I have Protect on Purrloin and kept blocking Fake Out. In my first 4 ladder battles, I faced 4 things that should hinder a team like mine (Fake Out from Kangaskhan, Volt Switch Probopass, No SR and a couple of Flying-types, and Quick Attack Swellow). I beat all 4. You can make the argument that my opponents weren't that good, and I wouldn't disagree. However, Purrloin still accomplishes the exact same thing that Liepard does. This is why I want Assist + Phazing or Assist + Prankster or just Assist banned: it doesn't particularly matter which abuser you use in my opinion. For reference, the Purrloin set I'm using is Assist / Substitute / Protect / Toxic.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55060131
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55063439
There was a 4th battle where I beat a Kangaskhan because I have Protect on Purrloin and kept blocking Fake Out. In my first 4 ladder battles, I faced 4 things that should hinder a team like mine (Fake Out from Kangaskhan, Volt Switch Probopass, No SR and a couple of Flying-types, and Quick Attack Swellow). I beat all 4. You can make the argument that my opponents weren't that good, and I wouldn't disagree. However, Purrloin still accomplishes the exact same thing that Liepard does. This is why I want Assist + Phazing or Assist + Prankster or just Assist banned: it doesn't particularly matter which abuser you use in my opinion. For reference, the Purrloin set I'm using is Assist / Substitute / Protect / Toxic.
Banning Liepard as a whole is just pointless and redundant. Assist + Prankster might not be entirely broken on Purrloin, but it's still damn hard to play around, as tennisace has pointed out, and it still is stupidly uncompetitive. I cannot say enough just how much this whole strategy revolves around team matchup (a Musharna on the opponent's team without Signal Beam pretty much guarantees a win ffs) and luck. It's been irking me that people keep saying we should ban Liepard, not at all an unhealthy Pokemon for the metagame on its own, just because of the Assist + Prankster combination, rather than making a complex ban or just ban Assist as a whole. Remember: Assist holds no competitive value. It might not be outright broken on anything that's not Liepard, hell, it tends to be completely useless most of the time, but the move by itself simply involves no skill in any shape or form and therefor does not fit in with the idea of what is seen as competitive.
Ban Assist, ban Assist + Prankster, ban Assist+ phazing, any of these is alright, but for fuck's sake do not ban Liepard.
Ban Assist, ban Assist + Prankster, ban Assist+ phazing, any of these is alright, but for fuck's sake do not ban Liepard.
The funny thing is that depending on the Ninjask set (aka does he have X-Scissor), your opponent could have won that second game, no? If Toxic missed on Ninjask, once it was the lastmon, it could either KO you or get a sub up. Speed Boost would allow him to get a Substitute up before getting Tricked by Drifblim after which he could stall out any Destiny Bond attempts. Getting at least one speed boosts ahead of your Ditto means you won't necessarily outspeed it despite scarf and you were also at half health so it'll KO you first. And Shiftry obviously doesn't like X-Scissors.
And here's the rub! Despite the fact that this team lacked Stealth Rock and had a Ninjask, who largely beats this Assist team, minus Arbok, he still would have only had a 20% chance of winning, based on whether or not Toxic hit or missed. The strategy HAS to go, by some format. Even Purrloin can pull it off stupidly ok-ish, though obviously it's very inferior.
(but yes you were facing idiots and I'd rather see Purrloin in a decent match against a decent player...)
In my opinion as someone who uses SwagCat there are times when it just won't work for you and ends up being dead weight.
However, AssistCat is completely broken. Swellow's Quick Attack and Linoone's Extreemespeed are all you can really do to it, and they simply put are not on everyone's teams.
However, Pivot Liepard and such I've heard are a great help to use and are far from broken, so just ban assist.
However, AssistCat is completely broken. Swellow's Quick Attack and Linoone's Extreemespeed are all you can really do to it, and they simply put are not on everyone's teams.
However, Pivot Liepard and such I've heard are a great help to use and are far from broken, so just ban assist.
This was my original thought process as well, but as someone pointed out to me, CB Cresselia wasn't broken in RU, but all Cresselia were banned. Banning a move/ability combo because it is broken on one mon is a dangerous presedence, so if assist Purrloin is broken, then yes an assist + prankster ban is okay, otherwise your options are ban liepard or do not ban liepard. Remember bans are often based on the best set, even if other sets aren't broken (physical kyurem-white is probably not broken in OU, but we don't allow it anyways). A more apt analogy is quiver pass venomoth is broken in RU but they didn't ban quiver pass + sleep powder (the only broken set), they banned venomoth.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55098039
Me vs Sidfrid on ladder. Since it's an extremely boring battle: we tied at the end because I'm kind of an idiot / got a bit unlucky with Primeape switch-ins / lost a coinflip at the end. Again, Purrloin does almost just as well as Liepard and performs basically the same role.
Me vs Sidfrid on ladder. Since it's an extremely boring battle: we tied at the end because I'm kind of an idiot / got a bit unlucky with Primeape switch-ins / lost a coinflip at the end. Again, Purrloin does almost just as well as Liepard and performs basically the same role.
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