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I know this is at topic that has been brought up many times (at least in early XY) but I think dwebble should be ranked quite a bit higher then he is atm. I'm not saying this because of his SR set but rather his berrysmasher set. I've used this set on many a team and got so sweeps with him it's crazy. He does have some quite obvious flaws like his not great relationship with mienfoo but his strenghths outweigh those flaws easily. His raw power good coverage and great speed are amazing if used right. and i think the way this meta has changed since early XY has gave him the edge he needs to be moved up to A. Admittedly I haven't been active in quite a while. This is the first team I built in quite a long time. I jumped in and so far havent lost a match since these three sweeps were done in consecution. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204850547 http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204851872 http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204853135
Dwebble faces a lot of competition from other Shell Smash users, and its inability to beat Fighting-types makes it difficult to utilize to the fullest unless the rest of its teammates are dedicated to removing them. Dwebble can stay where it is; the hazard setting set is its best set, and it is great on offensive teams, but it sits in the shadows of other Shell Smashers.
Actually, I face more problems with Dwebble than most Shell smashers. For one, it is neutral to Mienfoo, which other smashers don't have, and it has access to multi hit moves in rock blast to get rid of those pesky focus sashes. It is really bad if rocks are up, but if you play it correctly, Dwebble ca be a major threat that slaughters teams.
Actually, I face more problems with Dwebble than most Shell smashers. For one, it is neutral to Mienfoo, which other smashers don't have, and it has access to multi hit moves in rock blast to get rid of those pesky focus sashes. It is really bad if rocks are up, but if you play it correctly, Dwebble ca be a major threat that slaughters teams.
I feel that, if those are the qualities you enjoy dwebble for, you should use Shellder. Really bulky, rock blast and icicle spear, priority, better typing, skill link... The only reason you should use dwebble as a smasher is if you REALLY need the bug stab or knock off, both of which aren't too useful in this meta.
I know this is at topic that has been brought up many times (at least in early XY) but I think dwebble should be ranked quite a bit higher then he is atm. I'm not saying this because of his SR set but rather his berrysmasher set. I've used this set on many a team and got so sweeps with him it's crazy. He does have some quite obvious flaws like his not great relationship with mienfoo but his strenghths outweigh those flaws easily. His raw power good coverage and great speed are amazing if used right. and i think the way this meta has changed since early XY has gave him the edge he needs to be moved up to A. Admittedly I haven't been active in quite a while. This is the first team I built in quite a long time. I jumped in and so far havent lost a match since these three sweeps were done in consecution. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204850547 http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204851872 http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-204853135
Yeah keep Dwebble at B+, although shell smash is nice it requires a massive amount of team support. Dwebble in my oppinio works much better as a sturdy rock setter that gets KOff.
On the other other hand can I suggest Vulpix for A+ because in the free sun it gets, Fire blast hits like a truck and it can beat its weaknesses with Energy ball, as well as being able to use will-o-wisp or hypnosis.
Quick list of Pros/cons
+Free sun+ Fire blast hits like a truck
+It gets Energy Ball to deal with Rock, Ground, and steel types
+It hits 17 speed, which makes it faster than Pawn and speed ties with foo, bur and chen.
+It gets WoW, which helps it beat physical mons.
+A lot of mons like bellsprout love sun support
-Its weak to rocks
-drought only lasts 5 turns (8 with HR)
and i would like to see it move up to C- even but im unsure.
+ Contrary is a free +2 on Leaf Storm, plus it trolls Defog / Parting Shot / Memento / Intimidate (if mixed)
+ Taunt, Torment, Glare, Sub, Synthesis, and even Snatch are great status moves
+ good boosting moves in SD / Coil (non contrary sets only)
+ dual screens
+ Workable physical movepool (Knock Off / Leaf Blade / Aqua Tail / Pursuit)
= 17 Speed is fast but it ties with a lot
- Weak to 5 types (flying is really common, and erm have fun dealing with poison coverage on everyone)
- meager defenses are meager
- Good HP Types (Fire / Ground / Rock) require you to lose Speed
- Shit special movepool (hidden power / leaf storm / giga drain / energy ball / more grass STABS you dont need)
[quote="Jac,
Shit special movepool (hidden power / leaf storm / giga drain / energy ball / more grass STABS you dont need)[/quote]
But it gets Nature Power...
and i would like to see it move up to C- even but im unsure.
+ Contrary is a free +2 on Leaf Storm, plus it trolls Defog / Parting Shot / Memento / Intimidate (if mixed)
+ Taunt, Torment, Glare, Sub, Synthesis, and even Snatch are great status moves
+ good boosting moves in SD / Coil (non contrary sets only)
+ dual screens
+ Workable physical movepool (Knock Off / Leaf Blade / Aqua Tail / Pursuit)
= 17 Speed is fast but it ties with a lot
- Weak to 5 types (flying is really common, and erm have fun dealing with poison coverage on everyone)
- meager defenses are meager
- Good HP Types (Fire / Ground / Rock) require you to lose Speed
- Shit special movepool (hidden power / leaf storm / giga drain / energy ball / more grass STABS you dont need)
Honestly no one cares about half those pros bc Leaf Storm is basically the only reason to run Snivy; however, Snivy still warrants a C+ or B- rank. It has a 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot that can't be taunted, which is what you'll use 90% of the time. Knock Off softens up checks by removing eviolites, and Glare is 100% paralysis. It has some flaws, but it can hold its own effectively in the late game.
Honestly no one cares about half those pros bc Leaf Storm is basically the only reason to run Snivy; however, Snivy still warrants a C+ or B- rank. It has a 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot that can't be taunted, which is what you'll use 90% of the time. Knock Off softens up checks by removing eviolites, and Glare is 100% paralysis. It has some flaws, but it can hold its own effectively in the late game.
You dont HAVE to use Contrary Snivy, it has other things to utilize, i was just merely bringing them to the table. I mean talking only about Contrary doesnt seem like it should be allowed to raise in my book but i mean if that's what helps it rise then alright. Also all the Grass STAB shit was being asinine. I mean Snivy doesn't learn a a whole lot of special moves ;;[/quote]
If we are talking bout Snivy on teams though, Snivy is a god. With the right support and on Sticky Web teams, Snivy could potentially sweep entire teams if the opponent isn't careful. Also, you can slap a couple of items on it, and suddenly, Snivy hits extremely hard, with Leaf storm and +2 Spa. You don't even need to run hidden fire or rock. Hidden ground and ice are also pretty good, and they hit stuff that snivy doesn't.
The fact that it needs some support to be run very effectively means that it isn't really worthy of A rank. I think somewhere in B is good as it's not something that you can just stick onto ur team and expect to do well.
If we are talking bout Snivy on teams though, Snivy is a god. With the right support and on Sticky Web teams, Snivy could potentially sweep entire teams if the opponent isn't careful. Also, you can slap a couple of items on it, and suddenly, Snivy hits extremely hard, with Leaf storm and +2 Spa. You don't even need to run hidden fire or rock. Hidden ground and ice are also pretty good, and they hit stuff that snivy doesn't.
I do want to point out that any birds potentially ruins Snivy's sweep as well as most of the time, birds being the main bane of Sticky Web teams. I've listed HP Ground in the list because it hits Rocks / Steels / Elecs and so it's important. HP Ice only hits Birds and enemy Grass types and i dont feel it's as efficacious as HP Rock which also hits Larvesta and other Fire types switching into Leaf Storm. HP Fire has notable for nailing enemy Grass types and Steel types, two types that would love to suck up a free Leaf Storm and then punish with say a Sludge Bomb or in Pawn's case, Knock Off + Sucker Punch. I would argue Rock is prolly the best typing because it covers the most of Snivy's switch-ins. Do not discredit those types.
The fact that it needs some support to be run very effectively means that it isn't really worthy of A rank. I think somewhere in B is good as it's not something that you can just stick onto ur team and expect to do well.
I dont want to propose such a high rank for a mon who needs a lot of team support. As much as i love Snivy it's not something that can come in on it's own and wreck shit. It thrives off of team support. Without it, it's just not going to pull it's weight effectively. C- is fine in my books. C is kinda pushing it. But it should def move up.
If we are talking bout Snivy on teams though, Snivy is a god. With the right support and on Sticky Web teams, Snivy could potentially sweep entire teams if the opponent isn't careful. Also, you can slap a couple of items on it, and suddenly, Snivy hits extremely hard, with Leaf storm and +2 Spa. You don't even need to run hidden fire or rock. Hidden ground and ice are also pretty good, and they hit stuff that snivy doesn't.
The right support is 1/2 birds checks, trappers for bulky poison and EH setter, too much support for a rank A mon since you can't just take him in a team without having many flaws
I've never played with or against Snivy so I'll not get into that discussion. Instead, I'd like to nominate Skrelp for at least A-.
Adaptability has taken Skrelp from niche pick to what I think is the best Poison-type in the metagame behind Croagunk, and the best Water-type behind Chinchou. With it, 15 Special Attack (or Attack, since those stats are the same) Skrelp has an effective Special Attack stat when using its STABs that is slightly higher than Abra's:
236 SpA Abra Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Abra was turned into a Poison-type for this calculation)
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
196 SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
Couple that with high power STAB moves, and you've got a Pokemon that can hit hard while boasting 23/21/21 defenses after Eviolite. Its slow Speed is a problem of course, but it at least ties with Timburr and Porygon and outspeeds Spritzee and minimum Speed Snubbull. Skrelp is very hard to switch into with all that power, and can run a Hidden Power to smack otherwise solid switch-ins like Ferroseed and Croagunk. That said, I don't think Hidden Power is necessary on Skrelp, and instead opt for RestTalk to patch up its inability to recover, which is probably its biggest weakness and the reason why its so low on the rankings in the first place. Honestly, Ferroseed and Croagunk are just two Pokemon, and since Croagunk is walloped by Sludge Wave/Bomb anyway, going with RestTalk is my recommendation. Just run Ponyta or Timburr with Skrelp and it will patch those weaknesses up. Skrelp's typing is also very good, resisting Fighting, Poison, Steel, Fairy, Fire, Ice, and Water, all of which except for Ice are relevant in the current metagame. As for weaknesses, Volt Switch, Psychic, and Earthquake aren't fun weaknesses to have, but none of those bar an LO Abra Psychic can actually OHKO it, meaning Skrelp can take one of those moves in a pinch and severely weaken or KO a Pokemon in return. Skrelp deserves better than B+.
I've never played with or against Snivy so I'll not get into that discussion. Instead, I'd like to nominate Skrelp for at least A-.
Adaptability has taken Skrelp from niche pick to what I think is the best Poison-type in the metagame behind Croagunk, and the best Water-type behind Chinchou. With it, 15 Special Attack (or Attack, since those stats are the same) Skrelp has an effective Special Attack stat when using its STABs that is slightly higher than Abra's:
236 SpA Abra Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Abra was turned into a Poison-type for this calculation)
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
196 SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
Couple that with high power STAB moves, and you've got a Pokemon that can hit hard while boasting 23/21/21 defenses after Eviolite. Its slow Speed is a problem of course, but it at least ties with Timburr and Porygon and outspeeds Spritzee and minimum Speed Snubbull. Skrelp is very hard to switch into with all that power, and can run a Hidden Power to smack otherwise solid switch-ins like Ferroseed and Croagunk. That said, I don't think Hidden Power is necessary on Skrelp, and instead opt for RestTalk to patch up its inability to recover, which is probably its biggest weakness and the reason why its so low on the rankings in the first place. Honestly, Ferroseed and Croagunk are just two Pokemon, and since Croagunk is walloped by Sludge Wave/Bomb anyway, going with RestTalk is my recommendation. Just run Ponyta or Timburr with Skrelp and it will patch those weaknesses up. Skrelp's typing is also very good, resisting Fighting, Poison, Steel, Fairy, Fire, Ice, and Water, all of which except for Ice are relevant in the current metagame. As for weaknesses, Volt Switch, Psychic, and Earthquake aren't fun weaknesses to have, but none of those bar an LO Abra Psychic can actually OHKO it, meaning Skrelp can take one of those moves in a pinch and severely weaken or KO a Pokemon in return. Skrelp deserves better than B+.
Pawniard's speed is so bad that Mienfoo outspeeds it without scarf. That's a huge weakness and imo it's enough to keep it below A-.
Citing one Pokemon that beats another is a really bad argument against moving something up the viability rankings. We are all obviously aware that most Psychic-types beat Skrelp. That doesn't mean it isn't good at what it does. I agree its positive traits far outweigh its negatives and therefore, a move to A- is suitable. It can outmaneuver its counters and it has so few switch ins.
Also, people are running Scald/Sludge Wave/ResTalk when it has the same Attack level and Gunk Shot, which decimates specially defensive pokemon that switch in, along with Waterfall, a similar-powered Scald that sacrifices a pretty nifty 30% burn rate for a 20% flinch. Skrelp is an incredibly versatile pokemon that can go Physical, Special, ResTalk, Toxic Spikes. It also gets play rough and anything with play rough is auto cute this is more than enough to push Skrelp to A-
Edit: Skrelp isn't flinching anything with it's slow as fuck speed bar Timburr and Spritzee kek
Pawniard's speed is so bad that Mienfoo outspeeds it without scarf. That's a huge weakness and imo it's enough to keep it below A-.
Citing one Pokemon that beats another is a really bad argument against moving something up the viability rankings. We are all obviously aware that most Psychic-types beat Skrelp. That doesn't mean it isn't good at what it does. I agree its positive traits far outweigh its negatives and therefore, a move to A- is suitable. It can outmaneuver its counters and it has so few switch ins.
Pawniard can switch out of Mienfoo. Gothita, after trapping and killing your wall by tricking his scarf into him, can still switch into your Skrelp and kill him with no problem.
Pawniard can switch out of Mienfoo. Gothita, after trapping and killing your wall by tricking his scarf into him, can still switch into your Skrelp and kill him with no problem.
196 SpA Adaptability Skrelp Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gothita: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Skrelp needs to have a good bit of prior damage for Gothita to revenge kill it, and gets OHKOed if its running Hydro Pump. Scald may be standard, but I like to run Hydro Pump even if it does miss way too much.
We shouldn't be talking about how easily it is killed by Gothita, who's sole job is to get rid of stuff like SKrelp, we should be talking about what skrelps job is, to kill annoying stuff like spritzee and other really stally stuff. Skrelp murders a lot of common mons, like Mienfoo and Pawniard, two very common mons that threaten many teams. Most fighting types can't touch Skrelp, and neither can many flying types, while skrelp hits back hard. Skrelp does its one job well, wrecking havoc to the other team, and trying to hit as hard as you can.
196 SpA Adaptability Skrelp Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gothita: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Skrelp needs to have a good bit of prior damage for Gothita to revenge kill it, and gets OHKOed if its running Hydro Pump. Scald may be standard, but I like to run Hydro Pump even if it does miss way too much.
Dank Horsea hits hard as hell, and has some solid bulk for it. IT shares it's typing with Tenta meaning it's a good fodder vs Fighting types. While it's movepool isnt the best, it has powerful enough options to utilize.
I do want to say LoboMuzenza dont get into the mindset you are displaying when searching for negatives like that.
To make your argument better i would state that Skrelp gets worn down easily and has terrible recovery options. But even then, the positive outweigh the negatives in this case.
Even if Goth traps, it has to gamble against Skrelp's HP, we all know Goth doesnt slap things. Diglett is the same way. It needs LO to deal significant damage which worsens it's longevity.
In the end Skrelp is cute and dank and deserves to rise up bc ORAS was nice enough to give it the diddly.
