Last 4th gen team, need help!!

[MrHands]

I don't make many teams so when I stumble across one that doesn't suck I tend to stick with it. For a brief moment this team loved watching Salamence get banned. Then the reality of Shaymin set in and I realized how easily it ripped my team apart more than anything else. I made some changes to compensate (bad ones) and.. here we are.

@ Lum Berry
Careful
252 HP / 220 Special Defense / 36 Speed

Spikes
Roost
Taunt
Brave Bird

I used to have Metagross here as he is capable of beating all major leads barring Infernape / Heatran / Skarmory / Forretress, but the terrible, terrible threat of Shaymin has forced me to run a better check. Still, Skarmory does very well as a lead. Agains Azelf I switch right to Tyranitar who will either get Taunted and throw a ****** off Payback at him or eat a Fire Blast / Psychic and lay rocks. Machamp will usually kill Skarmory in two hits, but not before I get a layer of Spikes and a Brave Bird on it. Lum Berry lets me stay in against Smeargle and Roserade and Taunt their sleep move. Though I can Taunt Swampert and Metagross I usually don't as they often switch right to a Heatran / random other counter.

@ Choice Specs
Timid
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Defense

Draco Meteor
Surf
Outrage
Yawn

Kingdra is a destructive monster with about 91% the Special Attack of Choice Specs Latias, yet Kingdra's Surf is 36% stronger. Max speed allows me to at worst tie with enemy Suicune and also outrun every single standard Kingdra set in OU as well as Adamant Lucario, Mamoswine, Scizor and Gyarados. Outrage is literally only for Blissey as even with a Timid nature a Bold Blissey switching in on Stealth Rocks takes a total of 69% minimim from two Outrages. Yawn is mostly filler but its convenient for at worst putting something to sleep (usually in an emergency situation) or at best racking up tons of Spikes and Stealth Rocks damage. To give you an idea of the massive destructive potential of Kingdra, offensive Suicune is always OHKOed by Draco Meteor after Stealth Rocks and a turn of Sandstorm. HP Electric is an option, but Surf breaks Empoleon's Subs (and 2HKOs 100% of the time after that) and Draco Meteor OHKOs Gyarados after rocks.

@ Shuca Berry
Adamant
252 Attack / 60 Speed / 196 HP

Close Combat
Extremespeed
Ice Punch
Swords Dance

Shuca Berry and HP EVs lets Lucario survive any Earthquake in OU weaker than Mamoswines CB hits, and any neutral attacks weaker than that. Zapdos Heat Wave also fails to KO, allowing Lucario to take down most of his counters. HP EV bulk gives me either a free hit against things like Gliscor, Flygon and Zapdos (Ice Punch + ES KOs all three) or lets me get a second Swords Dance in ideal situations which adds up to 115% what +2 LO Lucario reaches giving me some added OHKOs.

@ Lum Berry
Sassy
252 HP / 252 Special Defense / 4 Special Attack

Payback
Fire Blast
Stealth Rock
Rest

A horrifying combination of a lure and support pokemon. Payback OHKOs Azelf and 2HKOs anything weak to it. Fire Blast is chosen over Flamethrower for its ability to OHKO Specially Defensive Forretress and Breloom after Stealth Rocks while 2HKOing all Skarmory, something Flamethrower can't. Fire Blast does enough to enemy Lucario that they are in KO range for just about any attack on my team. Stealth Rocks is obligatory on any team while Rest keeps me alive. Lum Berry works as a Chesto-Rest combo and turns the tide on Spore / Toxic Spikes / Will-O-Wisp. Special Defense EVs and Sandstorm boost gives Tyranitar so much Special Defense he ends up with just 2% less than Bold Blissey, letting him stand his ground in the face of even HP Fighting.

@ Life Orb
Timid
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Defense

Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
Substitute
Pain Split

My primary switch in for Shaymin. Gengar can survive any Life Orbed hit and retaliate with a Pain Split, gaining back enough HP to survive the next blow and retaliate with a now lethal Shadow Ball. Not to mention Sub Pain Split Gengar sweeps teams. Gengar can handle Lucario and Infernape well enough but also beats Scizor. If I sub as Scizor comes in I can Pain Split back to full health, putting Scizor into KO range for Focus Blast. Gengar forces tons of switches as well as being a decent spin blocker.

@ Choice Scarf
Adamant
252 Speed / 252 Attack / 4 Defense

Earthquake
U-turn
Outrage
Thunder Punch

Revenge killer, not much to say. It spreads tons of Spikes damage by forcing Pokemon to flee, only to make them flee again when they take a U-turn and watch me send in a counter. I might put 112 Speed EVs into HP so I still outrun most Agiligross and have enough durability to tangle with SD Lucario. Thunder Punch strikes Gyarados down, doing 101 minimum while also doing decent damage against some things like Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicne and Gengar that I don't want to use Outrage on.

 

[Smith]

Hey man cool team, you have a lot of interesting moveslot choices that I enjoy, but I feel that some of them are not really up to par. Kingdra, really, shouldn't be running outrage in my opinion. Outrage with timid nature and no boost hits like a pussy and is extreme set-up fodder, again, because it is so weak. Blissey isn't really an issue for this team in my opinion, or at least not to the extent that you need a lure for her. Lucario and Tyranitar can both switch in and set up or damage her, Flygon can switch into any thunder waves and gengar any toxics, while u turning to somethin or setting up. Skarmory has taunt. So really the only member of your team troubled by Blissey is Kingdra himself, and really spikes and just pressure wear him out, the rest of the team tears him up.

I'm also curious about Lucario. I love that set and everything, but again it seems to me like you're luring for luring's sake. That set works best when paired with DD Tyranitar, or something else that benefits from the removal of Gliscor/Hippowdon. I'd recommend either switching to a standard set with a different move, probably either Bullet Punch or Jolly + Crunch, which actually works for this team because spikes help make it up. Alternatively, if you really love that set, you could make a major change and switch your Tyranitar to a DD variant and put stealth rock on Skarmory- although really I think it's simpler and better for the team to just change Lucario.

Beyond that, this team is actually really cool and does an excellent job of abusing spikes. The one major weakness I see is to SD Lucario with Bullet Punch, but using Jolly on Lucario fixes this (nobody runs jolly and bullet punch!). I hope this all helps, good luck.

 

[MrHands]

Hey man cool team, you have a lot of interesting moveslot choices that I enjoy, but I feel that some of them are not really up to par. Kingdra, really, shouldn't be running outrage in my opinion. Outrage with timid nature and no boost hits like a pussy and is extreme set-up fodder, again, because it is so weak. Blissey isn't really an issue for this team in my opinion, or at least not to the extent that you need a lure for her. Lucario and Tyranitar can both switch in and set up or damage her, Flygon can switch into any thunder waves and gengar any toxics, while u turning to somethin or setting up. Skarmory has taunt. So really the only member of your team troubled by Blissey is Kingdra himself, and really spikes and just pressure wear him out, the rest of the team tears him up.

Thats fair enough. To be honest I haven't once had to use Outrage. What do you think I should use instead? Draco Meteor + Surf has all my bases covered and Yawn helps against random Baton Passers. Signal Beam might work since its a clean OHKO on Celebi. Its about as useless as Outrage otherwise and Draco Meteor 2HKOs. Dragon Pulse or HP Electric work too.

I'm also curious about Lucario. I love that set and everything, but again it seems to me like you're luring for luring's sake. That set works best when paired with DD Tyranitar, or something else that benefits from the removal of Gliscor/Hippowdon. I'd recommend either switching to a standard set with a different move, probably either Bullet Punch or Jolly + Crunch, which actually works for this team because spikes help make it up. Alternatively, if you really love that set, you could make a major change and switch your Tyranitar to a DD variant and put stealth rock on Skarmory- although really I think it's simpler and better for the team to just change Lucario.

Ah, good point. This team has changed a lot in the time I've used it. At first Lucario was here to lure and destroy Zapdos and Rotom (I had Crunch at first) so Suicune (over Kingdra) could sweep. But now Lucario is still Shuca because he almost works as a weird defensive check for a lot of stuff. Things like Mamoswine, +1 Gyarados, Kingdra, Starmie, Flygon, Gliscor, Zapdos etc. The difference between staying in and getting a KO usually beats having to switch out even with a more offensive set. Lucario has won me so many games and prevented losses by simply not dying.

But I do agree Crunch > Ice Punch might help. Zapdos has become less common and is 2HKOed by +2 Extremespeed (or OHKOed by +4) anyway and Rotom / Gengar are really annoying. Gliscor could beat me but Sand Veil gives him a 20% chance of doing that anyway.

Beyond that, this team is actually really cool and does an excellent job of abusing spikes. The one major weakness I see is to SD Lucario with Bullet Punch, but using Jolly on Lucario fixes this (nobody runs jolly and bullet punch!). I hope this all helps, good luck.

Thank you!

 

[MrHands]

Bump :(

Maybe chance Flygon to be Jolly with more speed, yet enough Defense to take a +2 Lucario Extreme speed. Enough Speed to outpace Jolly Gyarados (IIRC, I don't currently).

Also Dragon Pulse > Outrage on Kingdra. Outrage hasn't helped and there have been a few moments where it would have been nice to not be forced to Draco Meteor.

 

[ShinyAzelf]

Don't put Yawn on Kingdra. Either get rid of Choice Specs, or use Waterfall. Yawn doesn't help much and doesn't provide much support to the rest of your team either.

Does your Lucario with that EV Spread work? Its probably better off being faster, but if taking hits is what you want, I guess you could stick with it.

Maybe try Fire Blast over Thunderpunch on Flygon, because in my experience, it has worked better. Fire Blast takes out unexpected Forretress for a 1-2HKO (depending on EV spread) and helps more against Skarmory. Flygon should also run a Jolly nature because its job is to revenge kill, and with Jolly nature, it can outspeed a Tyranitar who has Dragon Danced twice, before revenge killing it with Earthquake.

Good luck!

 

[MrHands]

Why use Waterfall?. Outrage already does pitiful damage. Yawn can get rid of Baton Pass chain and sometimes help against stall. What is Waterfall doing for me?

Lucario works great. 60 Speed EVs outruns 88 Speed Rotom and helps outpace max speed Scizor. The rest goes into HP to survive random Brick Breaks, Zapdos Heat Wave and almost any Earthquake in the game. Try it some time! Its the best Lucario I've ever used.

I agree about Thunderpunch and Fire Blast on Flygon and I would switch if not for Flygon being my best way to take out Gyarados.