It was tough deciding whether to pick yes or no but in the end with all the rain teams going around and priority everywhere it isn't as broken as you think. It's not like it can just OHKO everything. Many Pokemon like Politoed and Vaporeon can tank Earth Power and so many things can check it or outspeed and KO before it gets the chance to Rock Polish. I saw someone here mention how it was harder to handle than Genesect. All I have to say is no way not even close. Rock Polish Landorus is very similar to Trick Room Reuniclus but Reuniclus is much harder to check/counter based on my experience as it's immune to any form of passive damage and it's weaknesses aren't as common as Landorus weaknesses not to mention Reuniclus isn't 4 times weak to Ice Shard and Sucker Punch is very rare in OU. I know this topic is about Landorus but Reuniclus is just very similar at what it does not to mention Psychic hit's more things than Earth Power does so if Reuniclus isn't seen as broken then I just don't see why Landorus would be also Reuniclus takes hits much better.
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Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect
- Thread starter kd24
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Politoed cannot tank earth power. You can live one hit but again, you first have to send politoed in tanking an hp ice (in that process of playing arround you can be predicted and taking free damage). Even if you manage to bring politoed in safely, landorus just switches out. If the player can get another safe switch in to landorus (not that hard to achieve) you are forced to play arround again. Eventually you'll take free damage, and by free damage i mean 60%-100% to most mons in the metagame.
Once you take a hit from landorus you are in range to be ko'd, so that pokemon becomes dead fodder unless it's a fast sweeper.
You don't need to score OHKO'es to be broken, 50%+ to the whole metagame is goddam broken. Revenge killers can't switch in without risking death (try send mamo in vs earth power) so you have to sacrifice something before. And the worst part is that once you send your revenge killer, landorus switches out and you are already losing.
You also compare TR reuniclus to landorus. Landorus deals way more damage than reuniclus with better coverage. Also reuniclus needs a turn to set TR up and it'll be gone in 4 turns. Many things can wall 4 turns of TR reuniclus. Landorus needs no set up and has u turn. You have in mind rock polish Lando but I honestly find set up and full sweep strategies weaker and less useful than straight out damage and keeping momentum with switching ones.
Once you take a hit from landorus you are in range to be ko'd, so that pokemon becomes dead fodder unless it's a fast sweeper.
You don't need to score OHKO'es to be broken, 50%+ to the whole metagame is goddam broken. Revenge killers can't switch in without risking death (try send mamo in vs earth power) so you have to sacrifice something before. And the worst part is that once you send your revenge killer, landorus switches out and you are already losing.
You also compare TR reuniclus to landorus. Landorus deals way more damage than reuniclus with better coverage. Also reuniclus needs a turn to set TR up and it'll be gone in 4 turns. Many things can wall 4 turns of TR reuniclus. Landorus needs no set up and has u turn. You have in mind rock polish Lando but I honestly find set up and full sweep strategies weaker and less useful than straight out damage and keeping momentum with switching ones.
I didn't actually mention Keldeo when discussing his scenario thank you very much (I brought it up as an unrelated point), and I only mentioned Tar because he brought it up. If he had been happy to add more partners than I would have brought them up his the argument as well =] I also don't think the Latios playing is really doing any "n00b moves", the person I was responding to said they would bring in Latios (even on an HP Ice) and use DM, and thats what my arguments mentioned so ???. Perhaps you should mention how his own examples need more work than whining over mine!
Well done, you listed every uber mon we banned, massively missing the entire point of the thread. This is not a "Is Landorus-I uber?" thread, its a "Is Landorus-I worthy of a suspect test" thread. The various arguments put forward by myself, kd24, alexwolf, Pocket etc all argue for and against that topic. Whether Landorus-I is uber is entirely different so please address the "Is it suspect worthy" question, rather than straying off topic. Remember, just because something is (possibly) getting a suspect test does not mean said pokemon is broken, just that its worth testing. Stay on topic please.
Because "broken" is a subjective term, you say its not broken, and someone else might say that its broken, hence why we have suspect tests, so that the top players can vote so we can find a majority decision. If something is deemed to be "broken" then we ban it. Keldeo was decided not to be broken, but was tested because at the time, people really did think it was borderline, and wanted a suspect test to push for an in depth look. I say again, just because something is suspect tested does not mean it is or isn't broken.
From the OP of the thread in case you are still confused / unsure! (I bolded the important part)
I guess what im saying here is that comparing Landorus-I with ubers such as Deoxys-A is extreamely unfair considering this threads purpose is solely to see if its suspect worthy, that question as to whether it is Uber is an entirely different one and you can feel free to make your comparison IF and only IF we decide on holding a suspect test for it. We hold suspect tests for things that need a hard looking at, things the community is undecided on, things that are not clear cut simple. A suspect test lets us look at how the metagame can function without said suspect, is the metagame more fun, enjoyable, more desirable etc etc. Its why kd24 and I have been very careful to state that while we think Landorus-I is suspect worthy we have been reluctant to declare it as 100% Uber (kd might have changed his position idk but you get the point), please understand the difference, (its subtle ill grant you but it is there) and please do, continue to argue against Landorus-I, just make sure you arguments deal with the question as to if its worthy of a suspect test or not (That goes for everyone).
Thanks
Fair enough. In the end, I'm not too fussed whether we end up suspecting Landorus-I or banning it or not. I personally don't see the need, but if we go ahead with it, I want to make sure it's for the right reasons (in line with the reasons we banned everything else), not just it's overpowering and sweeps in certain team combinations.
I feel like Lando could be a suspect. As mentioned it can 2HKO nearly everything with the right move. His movepool also allows some shenanigans as he can crush a normal counter by using a non standard move. i.e. one just killed my sp def Celebi with Sludge Wave. I know poision isn't a great type, but it's an example of how he can screw you over with something unexpected. He doesn't even really need to be unpredictable as with a little support he can handle nearly the entire meta game.
It's true that you will often have to sack something to revenge lando however, the same could be said for many other threats. One example is terrakion. What pokemon in OU isn't 2HKOed by CC or stone edge? The same can go for things like choice specs latios. With prediction, your ferro can go down to HP fire. The point is that you might have to sack something to counter lando. However, that does not nessecarily mean that it is broken. Finally, as i stated in my previous argument, stop overestating lando's power. Even things like politoed can check lando as lando doesn't OHKO. Can lando force you to sack a pokemon? If it is being handled by a good trainer, i suppose so. Can a lando sweep an entire team or blow gaping holes in one? Not so much. I would also like to add that lando is not "centralizing the metagame". It isn't even on the top 10 in usage statistics. Yes, i suppose that there are many noobs, but if lando was that overpowered, people would be using it more, like they used genesect and torn-t.
I've highlighted the problems with your argument. Sure, landorus can be modest, but that means even more things outspeed. Now I'm going to state this part again. Many things, as highlighted in the OP can take 1 hit from Landorus, not 2. Many things outspeed Landorus, especially if it is Modest. So Landorus cannot come in and sweep now because odds are, I probably have something else that can tank a hit form Landorus. While in theorymon, this looks like I can force out Lando twice, that isn't how it works IRL. IRL, my opponent would have to guess which of these "counters" I'd bring and choose the appropriate attack.
Secondly, obviously when I said spam DM I was using a hyperbole. Very few people would spam DM when the opponent has a ferro waiting. The problem for most of these arguments is the pokemon attacking Lando is in a vacuum while Lando itself has a team built around it.
I do not feel like Landorus-I deserves a suspect test, at least not at this moment. Auto-weather, Terrakion and Keldeo all deserved to be suspected first.
Landorus-I has no true counter thanks to it's ability to run U-Turn and his unpredictability, but neither does Hydreigon and we aren't trying to suspect him. I understand that Sp. Attacking Landorus-I can two shot the majority of the format, but he relies upon Focus Blast for coverage which severely hampers his ability to sweep. Contrary to what most people seem to believe, Landorus-I isn't really all that great as a scarfer either as he is seriously outclassed by Mons like Terrakion at that respective task.
Landorus is no doubt one of the three or four best OU Pokemon, but I feel he is at about the right level for OU.
Landorus-I has no true counter thanks to it's ability to run U-Turn and his unpredictability, but neither does Hydreigon and we aren't trying to suspect him. I understand that Sp. Attacking Landorus-I can two shot the majority of the format, but he relies upon Focus Blast for coverage which severely hampers his ability to sweep. Contrary to what most people seem to believe, Landorus-I isn't really all that great as a scarfer either as he is seriously outclassed by Mons like Terrakion at that respective task.
Landorus is no doubt one of the three or four best OU Pokemon, but I feel he is at about the right level for OU.
I think you missed the point, I can make Landorus-I timid if you want (ill do less damage sure), the point still stands: Latios is a poor answer to Landorus-I, as its basically forced to use Surf, and if it actually gets a KO, then Tyranitar is trapping it (or Tyranitar can run Scarf and switch in not giving a fuck). You say "Many things in the OP can take a hit" but really, I pretty much see Celebi, Latias, Jellicent, Rotom-W and Gengar (everything else gets risky as fuck if SR + SS is up) from listed in the OP (I might have missed the odd thing but thats what stood out). That is not "many things" especially when 4 of them are Pursuit bait.
Now don't get me wrong, Landorus-I is not uncounterable / uncheckable, it has mons that can take a hit from it etc etc, the point I was trying to make is that Tyranitar can checkmate many of them, which makes them exceptionally hard to bring in. You see, when you bring in Specs Latios on a Landorus-I after its smacked you with an HP Ice, or if you have taken prior / residual damage or whatever, you want to even out the trade, you want to deal damage, however Tyranitar puts you in a nasty position because IF you get a KO, then you get trapped, and its 1 less obstacle to Landorus-I. Sure, you can double up on checks / counters (sorta proving my point but w.e) and Landorus-I can do the same, running lures or mons that overload its counters and around and around it goes.
I actually invite you to read kd24's post a few pages back, it had a similar situation you might enjoy. Basically, he had a Keldeo in against a Hippowdon, so the chap switched in Latias, taking the attack with ease. kd24 then stayed in with Latias, knowing if Latias attacked and defeated Keldeo, Tyrantiar would trap it, and Landorus-I would rain hell on the team (despite it having a secondary check in Jellicent), sure enough Latias switched right back out to Hippowdon (to counter the Tar switch in) and Hippowdon was slammed with a Hydro Pump, and basically that was the game.
Now obviously there are a few slightly differences since it was Keldeo being the aggressor but it illustrates my point, against Landorus, bringing in your counter / check is very risky when it is so easy to pay for it with Tyranitar waiting in the wings. If you don't like these "team arguments", then feel free to post 1 or 2 more mons of your own (Latios + ???) to your core (its commonly accepted that Tar / Keldeo / Landorus-I is the common 3 mon core that's getting discussed, but Tar / Landorus-I works just as well), instead of complaining!
Quoting so you see it
So yes, Landorus-I is often mentioned with partners just like other past suspects (Tornadus-T with its Rain and (often) Dug + Tenta), Gene + Dug etc etc), and while its true that sometimes, users have mentioned 2 pokemon vs 1, largely this is due to lack of infomation (ie someone lacking a 2nd pokemon). You just cannot throw out a "well Specs Latios beats Landorus-I end of story" simply because if you try that in an actual game, chances are you risk losing your Landorus-I counter / check. I think that this is the point some people are trying to make.
Anyway
This post has already gone on for far 2 long, and in feeling unwell atm so ill cut it short. Basically when you are throwing around checks and counters, please don't assume that Landorus-I lacks team support. I'm not expecting a full 6 vs 6 importable with pages of text summarising what happened on Turns 1-15 of your scenario, but mentioning something that can be pursuit trapped (when Tar is Landorus-I's #1 partner) and then yelling NOP DON'T MENTION TAR COS ITS JUST LANDORUS (not saying anyone actually is) doesn't cut it anymore.
TY if you actually read this tl;dr
Now don't get me wrong, Landorus-I is not uncounterable / uncheckable, it has mons that can take a hit from it etc etc, the point I was trying to make is that Tyranitar can checkmate many of them, which makes them exceptionally hard to bring in. You see, when you bring in Specs Latios on a Landorus-I after its smacked you with an HP Ice, or if you have taken prior / residual damage or whatever, you want to even out the trade, you want to deal damage, however Tyranitar puts you in a nasty position because IF you get a KO, then you get trapped, and its 1 less obstacle to Landorus-I. Sure, you can double up on checks / counters (sorta proving my point but w.e) and Landorus-I can do the same, running lures or mons that overload its counters and around and around it goes.
I actually invite you to read kd24's post a few pages back, it had a similar situation you might enjoy. Basically, he had a Keldeo in against a Hippowdon, so the chap switched in Latias, taking the attack with ease. kd24 then stayed in with Latias, knowing if Latias attacked and defeated Keldeo, Tyrantiar would trap it, and Landorus-I would rain hell on the team (despite it having a secondary check in Jellicent), sure enough Latias switched right back out to Hippowdon (to counter the Tar switch in) and Hippowdon was slammed with a Hydro Pump, and basically that was the game.
Now obviously there are a few slightly differences since it was Keldeo being the aggressor but it illustrates my point, against Landorus, bringing in your counter / check is very risky when it is so easy to pay for it with Tyranitar waiting in the wings. If you don't like these "team arguments", then feel free to post 1 or 2 more mons of your own (Latios + ???) to your core (its commonly accepted that Tar / Keldeo / Landorus-I is the common 3 mon core that's getting discussed, but Tar / Landorus-I works just as well), instead of complaining!
Quoting so you see it
Please mention this "mystery mon" because nothing is more irritating at having to argue against a scenario, when that person suddenly adds an unnamed mon (Iv been open with the partners iv been using so I don't think im guilty of? (if so sorry but I think iv been careful)), Just tell us your core, and we can judge for ourselves if your argument holds true, because most things cannot switch into CB Tar / RP Landorus-I and its pretty difficult :/
Its called Team Preview, and it lets me see exactly what mons you have that can go toe to toe with Landorus-I, lets me make justified calls such as HP Icing a switch, what move is best to use etc etc. Don't act like doing the above is so hard, team preview makes things much easier for players of any skill level to do. With team preview I can see, ok so I need SR here, a Latios trapped HERE, the enemy Keldeo using SS HERE so Landorus-I can sweep and that's my gameplan. It doesn't mean ill auto win the game by any means, but I can instantly see what checks + counters you have, so I can justify using RP (against balance I can often attack w/o boosting first) or something else and so on and so forth.
This is a fair argument, its been discussed a fair bit and its an issue I guess. I don't think people are really mentioning a team tho, its usually Landorus-I + Keldeo + Tar, or Landorus-I + Tar. The point is, talking about Landorus-I individually (in a vacuum) and in a team setting are both valid. You see, ladder players such as myself have gone out a tested Landorus-I, and some of us have found it suspect worthy (and yes, some haven't and I 100% respect their decision) due to our playtesting experience. This isn't theroymon, this is actual perceptions as a result of games being played. The examples being given are (often enough), actually, examples that occur / occured in games. This isn't the 1v1 metagame here, pokemon is played with 6 mons which is why there are certain arguments that address this. If real life playtesting wasn't relevant, heck we could prolly just have a vote right now.
So yes, Landorus-I is often mentioned with partners just like other past suspects (Tornadus-T with its Rain and (often) Dug + Tenta), Gene + Dug etc etc), and while its true that sometimes, users have mentioned 2 pokemon vs 1, largely this is due to lack of infomation (ie someone lacking a 2nd pokemon). You just cannot throw out a "well Specs Latios beats Landorus-I end of story" simply because if you try that in an actual game, chances are you risk losing your Landorus-I counter / check. I think that this is the point some people are trying to make.
Anyway
This post has already gone on for far 2 long, and in feeling unwell atm so ill cut it short. Basically when you are throwing around checks and counters, please don't assume that Landorus-I lacks team support. I'm not expecting a full 6 vs 6 importable with pages of text summarising what happened on Turns 1-15 of your scenario, but mentioning something that can be pursuit trapped (when Tar is Landorus-I's #1 partner) and then yelling NOP DON'T MENTION TAR COS ITS JUST LANDORUS (not saying anyone actually is) doesn't cut it anymore.
TY if you actually read this tl;dr
As for my own thoughts on Landorus, I'm kind of on the fence. I think Landorus will get banned if it gets suspected. Landorus is a borderline Uber. It's an amazing sweeper that requires honestly little effort on the player's side to use. Unless Landorus is trying to sweep right away, its counters will be weakened by the time it gets in. I took the team kd posted for a spin on the ladder and was rather surprised. If I got Landorus in (which wasn't that hard with Jirachi's U-turn and double switching), I had an almost guaranteed sweep. Celebi and Latias were slaughtered by Tyranitar. The only issue I honestly had was Gengar, but even that could be dealt with via Hidden Power Ice and weakening it. Landorus has an amazing typing, isn't affected by Spikes and resists Stealth Rock, and has amazing coverage.
I think now that Landorus is worthy of a suspect test. See, even if I failed to sweep with Landorus, there was nothing my opponent could do about the next attacker I brought in, as kd alluded to. Unless I somehow lost every attacker on my team, my opponent would be overwhelmed. I don't think Landorus, as a single entity, is broken. However, I think Landorus on a well-built team is. Forget calling it team support; you're simply adding the best Pokemon to achieve your win condition. Landorus is a lethal sweeper when used with even the most minimal of support, and for this it at least deserves a suspect test.
I think now that Landorus is worthy of a suspect test. See, even if I failed to sweep with Landorus, there was nothing my opponent could do about the next attacker I brought in, as kd alluded to. Unless I somehow lost every attacker on my team, my opponent would be overwhelmed. I don't think Landorus, as a single entity, is broken. However, I think Landorus on a well-built team is. Forget calling it team support; you're simply adding the best Pokemon to achieve your win condition. Landorus is a lethal sweeper when used with even the most minimal of support, and for this it at least deserves a suspect test.
In the top 30 in OU (suspect February), the following pokemon can take 1 hit from RP Lando and outspeed (or take 2 hits and not outspeed) - Keldeo, Latios, Celebi, Latias, Jellicent (small chance of 2HKO), Gengar. Going down the list obviously will add more and more pokemon to this list, not to mention scarfers and checks.
Now say the only answer I had to Landorus on my team were Keldeo and Latios - both over 25% in suspect usage and number 2 and 3 most used. You send in Lando, what would you use? EP hurts Keldeo, Latios is immune, HP Ice does peanuts to Keldeo and hurts Lati. So I have a 50/50 chance of getting something in relatively untouched (assuming you are smart and don't RP), and now I have a strong attacker on the field capable of doing damage.
Just because Lando hurt Lati, doesn't mean most teams are screwed either. They usually have a scarfer, or something that can take one hit as a check. Sorry for the short reply but I tried to get this down quickly before work. More detail later.
Now say the only answer I had to Landorus on my team were Keldeo and Latios - both over 25% in suspect usage and number 2 and 3 most used. You send in Lando, what would you use? EP hurts Keldeo, Latios is immune, HP Ice does peanuts to Keldeo and hurts Lati. So I have a 50/50 chance of getting something in relatively untouched (assuming you are smart and don't RP), and now I have a strong attacker on the field capable of doing damage.
Just because Lando hurt Lati, doesn't mean most teams are screwed either. They usually have a scarfer, or something that can take one hit as a check. Sorry for the short reply but I tried to get this down quickly before work. More detail later.
Here is a complete list of all the pokemon that can take a hit and hit back to KO (not including SR)? It's a lot longer than four pokemon. They are:
Politoed
Vaporeon
Jellicent
Latios
Latias
Celebi
Rotom-W
Chansey/Blissley (3HKOed, can stall with toxic)
Keldo
Thunderus-T
Tornadus
Dragonite(assuming multiscale is up)
Zapdos
Scizor (doesn't OHKO but can counter because BP has priority)
Gyrados
Gengar
Conkeldurr
Slowbro (not common but still...)
Azumarill (again, not common)
Hippowdon (assuming it has ice fang)
Swampert
Gastrodon
THe following pokemon cannot OHKO but can take a hit and 2HKO (or 3HKO for a few of them), meaning that they can counter if lando has taken prior damage.
Venasaur
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Espeon
Volcanera
Reuniclus
Kingdra
Forretress
Finally, these pokemon can check it situationally:
Ditto (transforms and KOs with HP ice)
Alakazam w focus sash intact
Heatran w air baloon intact
Amoogus (Puts to sleep with spore)
Infernape (Standard leap ape w focus sash intact)
Cloyster w focus sash intact
Lucario (LO extremespeed can take it out if on low health)
CB terrakion (before lando RPs, it can do a huge chunk with stone edge)
Mamoswine
Weavile
Abomasnow
Donphan
Jolteon (before it sets up)
Starmie (before it sets up)
Most choice scarfers before it sets up
I would also like to repeat that lando is not dominating the metagame. It is not even on the top ten in usage stats. If lando was truely broken, it would be overcentralizing the metagame and would be used on the majority of teams.
EDIT: other than tornadus. Thunderus and zapdos, all of the pokemon in the first list can take a hit assuming SR is up. Of the second list, volcanera cannot take a hit if SR is up(although you would probably run it with a spinner. As i said, a lot of the checks in the third list are situational. Even if Sr is up, there are more than 4 counters.
Politoed
Vaporeon
Jellicent
Latios
Latias
Celebi
Rotom-W
Chansey/Blissley (3HKOed, can stall with toxic)
Keldo
Thunderus-T
Tornadus
Dragonite(assuming multiscale is up)
Zapdos
Scizor (doesn't OHKO but can counter because BP has priority)
Gyrados
Gengar
Conkeldurr
Slowbro (not common but still...)
Azumarill (again, not common)
Hippowdon (assuming it has ice fang)
Swampert
Gastrodon
THe following pokemon cannot OHKO but can take a hit and 2HKO (or 3HKO for a few of them), meaning that they can counter if lando has taken prior damage.
Venasaur
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Espeon
Volcanera
Reuniclus
Kingdra
Forretress
Finally, these pokemon can check it situationally:
Ditto (transforms and KOs with HP ice)
Alakazam w focus sash intact
Heatran w air baloon intact
Amoogus (Puts to sleep with spore)
Infernape (Standard leap ape w focus sash intact)
Cloyster w focus sash intact
Lucario (LO extremespeed can take it out if on low health)
CB terrakion (before lando RPs, it can do a huge chunk with stone edge)
Mamoswine
Weavile
Abomasnow
Donphan
Jolteon (before it sets up)
Starmie (before it sets up)
Most choice scarfers before it sets up
I would also like to repeat that lando is not dominating the metagame. It is not even on the top ten in usage stats. If lando was truely broken, it would be overcentralizing the metagame and would be used on the majority of teams.
EDIT: other than tornadus. Thunderus and zapdos, all of the pokemon in the first list can take a hit assuming SR is up. Of the second list, volcanera cannot take a hit if SR is up(although you would probably run it with a spinner. As i said, a lot of the checks in the third list are situational. Even if Sr is up, there are more than 4 counters.
As much as I love smogan's extensive list... If you go by precedent, Excadrill could be checked by a similar number of healthy Pokemon and actually had a decent list of counters. Also, Excadrill wasn't such an early game powerhouse, was dependent on weather and ruined by Politoed, Air Balloon Excadrill and Gliscor which were 3 of the most common Pokemon. Plus this was all before Keldeo, Lando-T and Techniloom existed.
I know this thread isn't about Excadrill, but I'm just pointing out that Landorus has more going for it than something sitting in ubers.
I know this thread isn't about Excadrill, but I'm just pointing out that Landorus has more going for it than something sitting in ubers.
Excadrill is quite different and more powerful than Landorus because it had similar levels of power (albeit a bit lower), but didn't need to boost its speed. It also had a much better defensive typing (resistant to most forms of priority, and Mach Punch was crappy back the time). Not only did it ruin offensive teams because it outsped and revenged everything (and swept), but it also fucked up stall teams since it was virtually impossible to spin block. I know there are a couple more checks to it now, but it was definitely better than Landorus by a long shot. Also, if you look at Excadrill's counters, you only had bulky Pokemon that couldn't fit on offensive teams at all, while Landorus has checks that can exist whatever team style you want to use. If you want to run stall, Celebi and Blissey and stuff like that have little problems with Landorus, balance has Latias, while offensive teams carry Latios or they tend to carry a truckload of priority and no setup opportunities for Landorus at all.
This is not an argument. Excadrill destroyed speed tiers. Most things above 110 base speed were absolutely useless in that metagame without set-up. We should judge this case by whether the pokemon we are looking at is over-centralizing, or in this case, if it might be over-centrailizing.
For the other person , the reason I didn't I didn't make a comprehensive list is because I wanted to pick a teammate from the scenario that was extremely common.
I had written up a response to most of the "checks" on your list, but my internet freaked out and I lost it. I really don't feel like spending another half an hour typing that up again, so I'll just respond to this part.
Usage has very little to do with how broken something is, so you can stop bringing that up. Deoxys-D was only at about 7.11% usage before its ban, sitting at #32. Tornadus-T was at just 7.20% usage prior to its ban. Excadrill and Thundurus had lots of usage, but neither made the top 10 in the month before their ban. Deoxys-S also failed to make the top 10 until the month it was actually suspected. There are other examples, such as Wobbufett in 4th Gen (I can't remember the exact usage, but I know it didn't make top 10 either). Just because a Pokemon doesn't have really high usage doesn't mean that it isn't broken or that it doesn't influence the metagame in a negative way.
On a side note, Landorus actually did hit #11 on the last suspect ladder, so he has come very close to the top 10 in the recent past.
I said that they could TAKE A HIT AND KO BACK not switch in. I concede that you may have to sack something to stop lando. Once again, the same can be said for many other pokemon. CB terrakion comes to mind. SO does choice specs latios. A good player can also predict a HP ice and switch in safely. Also, I was referring more to the standard RP sweeper set because that was the one that was considered most broken (or at least the one people are talking most about in the thread). If you are running the physical set, there is a whole new set of counters, namely pokemon that can tank the edgequake combo. If you are running mixed, you lose out on coverage for at least a few of the pokemon there. By the way, I don't think the standard landous runs u-turn.
Or not, predicting is like to flip a coin, 50%. If you are right you think: “I’m super-professional player”. If you make mistake, you think: “I’m stupid, it was a FocusBlast-HPIce-EarthPower-Psychic-SludgeBomb”.
I think we must consider all possibilities of Landorus, and we mustn't put the focus in the special Landorus. Landorus is an unpredict pokemon with the ability of: breaking stall with a special version, sweeping with a physical version, using a scarf version,... If we discuss about Landorus, I must consider Landorus totally, IMO.
PD: Excuse my English.
The list of pokemon I made could still check most variants. Admittedly, few of them can switch in safely, but after you sack something, they can KO lando. Unless it is a choice band or choice specs variant, all if the pokemon can take a hit and counter back if it is the special variant and most can for the physical variant. While landorus may have different sets, it has similar counters/checks to both. For example, rotom-w is a good answer to both the physical and the special check. Unless it runs HP fire, CB scizor can check lando assuming it is at max health or close to max health. The point is, while lando is unpredictable, it has similar checks.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.W_M said:
- Last time I checked Ice Shard was an OHKO.
- And Azumarril's Aqua Jet is an OHKO after rocks or with rain, and Landorus can under no circumstances do more than 60% damage to it.
- Scizor can also 2HKO if he switches in at predicted rock polish or revenge (Earth Power needs a 2HKO 60%+ of the time and that's even after rocks)
I mean sure go ahead with your discussion. But please stop twisting facts to make it look like Landorus is some Godly Genesect incarnate, by pulling bullshit facts out of your ass. Priorities are a perfectly fine 'check' in scenarios and hard counters if it's stuff like Mamoswine. These statements just lead the discussion in circles and we end up nowhere. Just a bunch of people 'proving' each other wrong and acting real smartass.
About Scizor. It's right, you are wrong:
Detailed Result:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs 248 HP/0 SpDef Scizor: 79,88% - 93,88%
Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 55,49% - 65,2%
About Azumarril, I said in SandStorm conditions, you are assuming in rainy conditions the aqua jet, and I assumed the earthquake in sand conditions, it's right too:
Detailed Result:
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Azumarill: 80,2% - 94,31%
Scizor and Azumarril could be OHKO after rocks. Mamoswine can revenge Lando, I didn't say the contrary. Review my message, your calculator and don't fool about my intentions.
The physical set has no bearing on this discussion, W_M. Do not attempt to bring it into the discussion when this suspect discussion is about Special Landorus. We've established at this point physical Landorus is in no way broken. On top of that, you're using the old Garchomp fallacy where a Landorus has all major sets at the same time, special Landorus can't Earthquake Azumarill.
I've seen this a couple of times, and it's been making me twitch every time I read it, with regards to the other pokemon that 'you can't switch in to'. I would just like to point out that Choice Band Terrakion and Choice Specs Latios are both, well, Choiced. Same goes for Choice Specs Politoed and Choice Band Kyurem-B. The bottom line is, in order for these pokemon to be insanely powerful, they have to choose a move to get locked in to.
Landorus-I does not get locked in to it's attacks. It more or less gets a Life Orb boost for free with Sheer Force, making it insanely powerful without the drawback of getting locked in to a move. This makes it much more threatening; as opposed to something like Terrakion, who, once locked in to Close Combat, will get walled by Gengar lol.
Admittedly, without Protect, it can be hard to predict what a choiced user will do, but it's a significant downside to these other powerhouses that ought to be noted.
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