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Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?
- Thread starter Gary
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This actually a very fair judgement in my opinion. Yes, they have the same BST and Movepool with only two stats swapped, however, both get the same moves besides one move, the Fusions. How can it be a hinderance? They only differentiate in one move, yet people still use this argument >.>
The two primary moves I listed that make it good are special moves. Kyurem-W has 170 special attack.
A 170 base stat hitting for neutral on the entire game hurts.
This also. It does have unresisted coverage (No, not Heatran because of Flash Fire being nullified by Teravolt (whatever it is for kyurem-w), it actually is hit neutrally)
Yes, but Outrage / Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw is all it needs on the physical side to be the monster it is. It having a great special movepool is just icing on the cake.
This is something that seems to be a common misconception among players when they first see Kyurem-B being OU and Kyurem-W being Ubers. For starters, Kyurem-B is a physical powerhouse that is cursed with a less then satisfactory physical movepool, so its forced to look into its special movepool for help. Also, its all out physical sets are walled by common Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn and Jirachi. Now, look at Kyurem-W. All it could ever need is in its special movepool, and because of that, it doesn't have to invest in its lower attacking stat to try and patch up its lack of coverage and movepool. So now, we have a 170 base special Attack powerhouse firing off STAB Draco Meteors, Focus Blasts, Ice Beams and sometimes Blizzards, Earth Power, and Fusion Flare to hit all of the Steel-types that would normally wall it. That leaves only two Pokemon, Chansey and Blissey, that can actually wall this thing successfully. Unlike Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W doesn't need to invest at all in Attack, because it has everything it could ever need in its special movepool, allowing it to invest fully in its monstrous Special Attack stat. Other than that, everything else in the tier is OHKOed by Draco Meteor or 2HKOed by anything else. The metagame is a LOT more prepared for physical attacks then it is for special attacks, and because of Kyurem-B's dependence on its lower 120 Special Attack, there isn't nearly as much of a worry in trying to wall it. Kyurem-W would be near impossible to prepare for because it would be overwhelming for any player lacking Blissey or Chansey. Kyurem-B isn't comparable because most of its coverage lies in its lower special Attack stat, while its Physical STABs can be walled quite easily by defensive Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Forretress, even Scizor. Kyurem-W on the other hand, can beat all of these things, and more. Oh and another thing, Kyurem-B is actually heavily crippled by its own nuking tool, Outrage, because once it uses it, it's very prone to being revenge killed. Kyurem-W on the other hand, can switch out.
While I understand your argument, of course its movepool is a hindrance. If Kyurem-B had a STAB, physical Ice-type move (Freeze Shock lol), it would probably be ubers. While being a great mixed attacker is awesome, being able to run 252 attack EVs with good coverage on a base 170 Atk stat is pretty ridiculous, so I think having a better physical movepool would be the one thing that would push it over the edge to Ubers. In fact, that was the reason it was brought down, because of its shallow physical move pool.
EDIT: Gary pretty much reading my mind, ninja'd
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 136-161 (38.63 - 45.73%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 197-232 (57.77 - 68.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 112-132 (31.63 - 37.28%) -- 96.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 197-232 (57.43 - 67.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With a little damage beforehand and even spikes, it can effectively defeat these all. True, Kyurem-W does have an easier time, but it can still muscle through.
But that wasn't really my point. My point is that Kyurem-W doesn't need jack shit to muscle through its counters, because frankly, it really doesn't have to. It can beat all the Steel-types with Fusion Flare, which is huge. I refuse to drop a thing that would force me to run Blissey on all of my teams if I want to successfully wall this thi-....
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 306-362 (46.93 - 55.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Well never mind. There's really nothing else I can say to try to sway you differently, because you're not understanding that 170 SpA with every coverage move with no counters Vs. Kyurem-B with one powerful physical STAB and 120 SpA with every coverage move but with a few counters is a HUGE difference. That, on top of the other things I just mentioned.
Getting tired of the Banded set being what people talk about as broken. You haven't faced broken until you've faced the mixed set which can beat every stall pokemon. The banded set locks itself into outrage and then gets killed off. The special set forces switches and 1/2hkos everything and without locking itself into a move. To beat it you need to hope they run Outrage over Fusion bolt/Dclaw while you have a ferrothorn and either chansey or politoed as its teamm8
Kyurem-B is pretty eh. I like the sub mixed set if you get an opportunity to set up (usually against rain teams), but that set in particular is walled to hell and back by Chansey, and the main thing you're supposed to switch in on (water types attacking with scald) have a high chance of burning you and taking away your mixed powers. The weakness to mach punch and bullet punch doesn't help either.
I'd like to put some emphasis on that; Kyurem-B's Ice typing is more of a hindrance than a blessing. Sure it gets STAB Ice Beam, but without a STAB, physical Ice move, it doesn't really get the full offensive benefit of its Ice typing, meaning that extremely common Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, and Mach Punch, and Secret Sword) hurt.
What I'm trying to say is that Kyurem-B's Ice typing is not completely developed Offensively due to the lack of the STAB physical Ice move, so the horrible defensive drawbacks are definitely not worth it.
Yeah I mean the banded set clearly isn't broken either, you just sack your least important pokemon because there's obviously always a pokemon you don't need!
Then, as it has locked itself into outrage, I'll just revenge it, it can't switch!
Wait, it used Dragon claw? FUCK.
Oh wait, it's locked itself into outrage.. Now I just revenge it with my scarf terrakion.. Wait.. Scarf terrakion isn't even guaranteed to OHKO it when it has no defensive investment at all, because it's the OU pokemon with the best mixed bulk besides ferrothorn, along with that base 170 attack?
The only standard set that can both OHKO CB Kyurem-B and actually take 2 hits from it is Ferrothorn ( thanks to iron barbs <3 )? Hmm.. I don't see the problem here.
Then, as it has locked itself into outrage, I'll just revenge it, it can't switch!
Wait, it used Dragon claw? FUCK.
Oh wait, it's locked itself into outrage.. Now I just revenge it with my scarf terrakion.. Wait.. Scarf terrakion isn't even guaranteed to OHKO it when it has no defensive investment at all, because it's the OU pokemon with the best mixed bulk besides ferrothorn, along with that base 170 attack?
The only standard set that can both OHKO CB Kyurem-B and actually take 2 hits from it is Ferrothorn ( thanks to iron barbs <3 )? Hmm.. I don't see the problem here.
The fusion bolt set is completely stopped by Chansey. You take like 35% from a 100 EV/neutral nature fusion bolt and it only has 8 PP, which is easily stalled out. You can also use Scizor to take a hit and break the sub. Earth power is like a 3hko on banded Scizor, and I think a 4hko if you have lefties.
Banded Kyub has a base 95 speed. With stealth rocks up, virtually any offensive poke can outspeed and ohko. Gengar, Weavile, Zam, Terrakion, Hydreigon, Salamence, Keldeo, Garchomp, Tornadus, Thundurus-T are all viable answers (and I'm sure there are tons more I'm forgetting), and so are Scizor and Breloom, who don't outspeed but can ohko with priority.
Defensive teams might lose something if Ferro isn't healthy but he's a wallbreaker for a reason.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Lack of a Physical Ice STAB: Most common argument against banning Kyub. While I do agree it could use this, look at its current progress without it. "Breaking every wall with a mixed set? Needs a physical Ice attack :/" All of its checks are only checks. I believe a user summed it up earlier with the likes of begging that Kyub doesn't have a certain attack/item in order for a certain poke to counter it.
SR weakness: Does this stop the likes of Thundurus-T from coming in and hammering on your stuff? No. While you can argue that Kyurem's weaker and doesn't have a boosting move like Thundy, Kyurem can easily hit hard with Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt/Any special attack in its movepool. Plus it gets Roost, and you all know how well Ho-Oh/Lugia managed with that even with SR weakness.
Priority weakness: It can live a Scizor's Technician Choice Banded STAB Bullet Punch with no investment in HP and Physical Defense and a negative nature for Physical Defense. Sure, it barely hangs on and it only lives if at full HP, but the fact that it can take this, which is the most powerful priority on the face of the earth to it in OU, shows that it has enough bulk to mitigate that priority weakness unless you hit it with some extremely strong priority. Not only that, it kills that same Scizor with HP Fire, which most mixed sets run. If this isn't powerful, idk what is.
Erm, you don't assume SR on the other side of the field when countering/checking a pokemon.. But whatever. None of those pokes you listed can actually switch in, so if you're switched into a pokemon that doesn't happen to OHKO it, you still lose a poke.
I've said this before: Kyurem-B would not be improved very much, if at all, with Ice Punch/Ice Fang/Icicle Crash. Not because they have low BP (though something like a base 100 Ice Attack would help it 2HKO PDef Ferrothorn with a Choice Band), but because Dragon/Ice is pretty lacking in coverage. It really only helps you get through Ferrothorn, but uninvested HP Fire already 2HKOs 252/208 Ferrothorn. That's why Kyurem-W is Uber and Kyurem-B isn't, Fusion Flare.
Yeah you're right; I realized what I said was wrong cause I was trying to find reasons to run Icicle Crash over hp Fire when people started posting about it. However, the argument of bad physical movepool is still important, as something like Fire Punch would probably be preferred over hp fire (not trying to get all theorymon itt, but lack of coverage is the culprit in keeping Kyurem-B OU)
Kyu-B is definitely one of the strongest pokemon in the OU meta right now, but I wouldn't call it broken because it can be checked without TOO much trouble, although without a doubt it influences team building a lot because of its strengths.
You're not asking the right questions. Why do I need to worry about a slight accuracy drop on certain moves when 80-90% of the time I can net more possible KOs with better speed, better STABs and an awesome offensive typing? (Garchomp/Terrakion) How about having absolutely no safe switch-ins due to a nigh-permanently disabling move? (Spore) What is your justification for singling out Kyurem-B in a tier where all around better offensive Pokemon with no limitations roam?
There are many Pokemon who can place you in a position to win the game by themselves and are not even being considered for a ban. They are called sweepers, and they wrote the book on what an offensive Pokemon is supposed to be in OU. Kyurem falls short of that precedent by several leagues because it is easy to force out, overrun, and completely incapable of facilitating a sweep. The only exceptional role I've seen Kyurem-B play is as a stallbreaker, and, well, good luck finding enough stall teams to fight for him to be broken.
Banded Kyurem-B shouldn't be the focal point of what is "broken", rather, the mixed sets (regardless, Kyu-B isn't broken imo). A 170/120 attack spread is one of the best attack spreads in the game (sans Rayquaza) and Kyurem-B's overall movepool is definitely enough to get rid of some checks.
But again, I definitely think that Kyu-B isn't broken. Being weak to two of the four priority moves (Mach Punch and Bullet Punch) is bad, especially when the Pokemon that are using them (like Scizor) are very common in OU. Second, Stealth Rocks. SR prevents Kyu-B from switching in and out a lot, which is essential especially on Choice sets. Even bulky Sub sets suffer from SR. This leaves Kyu-B open for revenge killing, which is fairly easy to do with the 95 base Speed. Even if it switches out, it still suffers the SR damage, making KOing it easier.
Combine all these facts, and Kyu-B is a very good OU Pokemon, but not broken. ...at least from my perspective.
But again, I definitely think that Kyu-B isn't broken. Being weak to two of the four priority moves (Mach Punch and Bullet Punch) is bad, especially when the Pokemon that are using them (like Scizor) are very common in OU. Second, Stealth Rocks. SR prevents Kyu-B from switching in and out a lot, which is essential especially on Choice sets. Even bulky Sub sets suffer from SR. This leaves Kyu-B open for revenge killing, which is fairly easy to do with the 95 base Speed. Even if it switches out, it still suffers the SR damage, making KOing it easier.
Combine all these facts, and Kyu-B is a very good OU Pokemon, but not broken. ...at least from my perspective.
If Hydreigon gets in safely he can guarantee a dead poke too. He's not exactly OP tho.
If hydreigon gets in safely he has to make a massive prediction to make sure he doesnt waste draco meteor or superpower power. Kyurem requires no such a thing because he doesnt depend on crippling moves.
Outraging a Ferro for Kyub is just as bad as using Draco on a Ferro for Hydreigon. Worse actually, because Ferro can ohko a locked in Kyub, while Hydreigon can just switch. Still requires prediction.
The only thing Ice Shard would do is supplant Mamoswine as a Dragon Slayer. It doesn't help its coverage nor patch its speed. And before you ask,
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 103-123 (23.19 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 84-100 (18.91 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO
yes, Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom's Mach Punch are still stronger.
EDIT: Hydreigon isn't as popular a wallbreaker because he relies on an attack that drops his main offensive stat and even then he's got a 45 base stat gap to cover. Kyurem-B's Special Attack is only 5 base points less than Hydreigon's, there is an ENORMOUS power gap. Hydreigon still KOs Ferrothorn at -2 with Fire Blast after it's taken a Draco Meteor, but... Why am I even here? It's not really a fair comparison at all to make. Hydreigon is neat (I wrote his OU Overview, I'm a fan of the Pokemon) and base 98 Speed is cool but no one should be questioning who is the superior breaker.
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