You make that seem like such a tragedy; Ubers is a lovely metagame. Also, keep in mind that Blaziken and Deoxys-N were booted before Gengarite.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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The first bans were Blaziken and Deoxys-N, gen 3 Pokemon.
Of course, that wasn't so much a ban as it was simply returning them both to their previous tier- that is, they were Uber in Gen 5 and went right back there after a quick review showed nothing had changed, other than possibly making them more dangerous than before. At least Gengar got a break from Ubers in Gen 5 before being banished there once again- and Kanga hasn't even been OU since GSC.
Every time we put a Pokemon in Ubers, it's a confession to me that Game Freak's put something into the game the majority of the battle system simply can't handle. It's power creep. I don't like that.
Yeah let's use meg kanga and speed boost(normal) blaziken on the same team O.o
Supernova
Uh what? Gengar's been OU since RBY and it stayed OU. It just had a set for ubers in DDP. And Gengar wasn't banned, it's MEGA FORM was banned. And it was banned because it had Shadow Tag. Heck, I'm not sure if Ubers can stand up against it. If you want proof then look this and click on all the generation tabs.
http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/gengar
The biggest problem I have with Mega KK is the effect that it has on metagame diversity. People speaking out against a ban are quick to point out the 2 or 3 (viable) pokemon that can deal with it's most common set, the problem though, is that everything outside of those select few get totally destroyed. Teams are pretty much required to have one of the few Mega KK counters in order to have a chance of victory against an opponent using Mega KK. Additionally, because it can so easily dismantle almost all popular and otherwise effective physical walls, it reduces the viability of running a team that relies on pokémon such as Gliscor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Rotom-W, Landorus-T or Hippowdon for the majority or their teams physical sponging requirements, as they are all 2HKOd after a PuP boost. Also, even the most effective counters can be dealt with by running a less common set, for example, even Sableye (which almost everyone against banning Mega KK has brought up) suddenly looks rather foolish switching in on a Mega KK as it sets up a sub.
In short, I believe that Mega KK is worthy of a ban because, even though there are a few strategies that can deal with it's most common set(s) effectively, those strategies are simply too few and are almost a 100% requirement in order to deal with it, and I think that this reduces the options that one has when constructing a viable competitive team, restricting the diversity of the metagame.
I, for one, have no interest in playing a tier where one of your six pokémon slots are reserved for one of a small handful of essential pokémon because of the virtue of their ability to counter 1 overwhelming threat.
In short, I believe that Mega KK is worthy of a ban because, even though there are a few strategies that can deal with it's most common set(s) effectively, those strategies are simply too few and are almost a 100% requirement in order to deal with it, and I think that this reduces the options that one has when constructing a viable competitive team, restricting the diversity of the metagame.
I, for one, have no interest in playing a tier where one of your six pokémon slots are reserved for one of a small handful of essential pokémon because of the virtue of their ability to counter 1 overwhelming threat.
*Table flip* COUNTERS DO NOT MAKE SOMETHING NOT BROKE
For the love of fucking god people stop this! Skarmory IS NOT A COUNTER it can whirlwind a mega khan out with its lovely -priority. What does this mean? IT TAKES DAMAGE EVERYTIME IT DOES THIS. Lucario is a CHECK for you people who do not get it: CHECK=/=COUNTER. You people have managed to give me a god damn headache allready, I wonder how many times we've looped around the circle? Lucario CANNOT come in on a PuP, or a +2 return. My apologies for the overly abusing bold but it just seems people cannot get the message, lets hope hammering it in helps...
Beating a dead horse there, mate. We've gone over your exact argument several times now, and the guy you're quoting is pages back. I'd advise dropping it; based on the overall consensus in this thread, the ban is imminent.
It won't, someone will bring it up within three pages again. I'd put money on it.
Well I don't write entire posts in the matter of seconds, theres people who have faster typing fingers than mine.
You might as well just run full physical and fire punch the bastards.
It doesn't get Fire Punch until Pokebank, not that it's still going to be around then.
Yes, it neeeds to be banned for sure. "Mega kangaskhan is not that hard to counter" = "My ladder ranking is 1400 and I have been playing against noobs who just put Kangha in some random team regardless of team support or actually using it"
A properly used kanga in a well thought team (for example, laying sticky web, using heatran to take the WoW sableye and kill the ferrothron, or whatever) is very scary.
A properly used kanga in a well thought team (for example, laying sticky web, using heatran to take the WoW sableye and kill the ferrothron, or whatever) is very scary.
Same here, why hasn't anyone put up a poll yet? I know that the gengarite poll didn't go over well because many arguements were for banning it but the poll was 50/50. Still, I'd like to see how the voting turns out.
Imo what makes it even scarier is teammates with healing wish. Everybody thinks that a burned mega-kang is out for the rest of the game more or less (that's the attitude I've been seeing, and that's still not true but) but with healing wish, you can take advantage of that attitude and smack the team with another mega-kang, at full health, while its checks and counters were worn down by the first attempt.
A dangerous strategy in general to face, but damn does mega-kang shine with it.
A dangerous strategy in general to face, but damn does mega-kang shine with it.
So khan should be banned, because as we've stated, if khan comes in at full heath, it literally requires something to die to kill it.
Its bulk prevents priority users from taking it down with priority, and they get KO'd back.
its speed limits the amount of things to that can revenge it, forcing slower mons to use scarfs, and because of it's bulk, lack the power to revenge kill it.
Its combination of bulk and power allows it to take a hit, then kill back.
Anything fast enough to kill it is also too frail, and thanks to khans bulk, they can't kill it, and get killed back
Its combination of speed, bulk and power literally requires a sacrifice so something can come in and take it down. Nothing lives switching into this thing.
Nothing can reliable switch in and live. Not even ferrothorn, especially with the ease it sets up, inculding ON ferrothorn.
Its combination of speed bulk and power means it should go live in ubers.
I can't think of one mon who can hard counter this. Hard counter is like switching into something to the point where it can't touch it, like switching jellicent into Keldeo. Keldeo can't do anything, and must switch. At + 2 Khan 2HKOs skarm, and even if you whirlwind it out, khan is still out there, its not gone, and probably at full health. You probably just traded 60% of your skarms health to die later. Any smart khan user carries crunch, and even if you can burn khan, its literally capable of killing confagrious and powering through the burn with more power up punches. When you face this thing, you literally have to sacrifice whatevers out, so khan can either take prior damage and be revenged, or so the ghost checks (not counters, they still die) can get a safe switch in. Every tried switching confagrious into crunch? even with mummy, the next turn khan eats it for breakfast, and can retain its threat, because 125 base attack is still powerful to KO a lot with it's now unblockable power up punch boosted attacks, combined with it's bulk and speed.
Its bulk prevents priority users from taking it down with priority, and they get KO'd back.
its speed limits the amount of things to that can revenge it, forcing slower mons to use scarfs, and because of it's bulk, lack the power to revenge kill it.
Its combination of bulk and power allows it to take a hit, then kill back.
Anything fast enough to kill it is also too frail, and thanks to khans bulk, they can't kill it, and get killed back
Its combination of speed, bulk and power literally requires a sacrifice so something can come in and take it down. Nothing lives switching into this thing.
Nothing can reliable switch in and live. Not even ferrothorn, especially with the ease it sets up, inculding ON ferrothorn.
Its combination of speed bulk and power means it should go live in ubers.
I can't think of one mon who can hard counter this. Hard counter is like switching into something to the point where it can't touch it, like switching jellicent into Keldeo. Keldeo can't do anything, and must switch. At + 2 Khan 2HKOs skarm, and even if you whirlwind it out, khan is still out there, its not gone, and probably at full health. You probably just traded 60% of your skarms health to die later. Any smart khan user carries crunch, and even if you can burn khan, its literally capable of killing confagrious and powering through the burn with more power up punches. When you face this thing, you literally have to sacrifice whatevers out, so khan can either take prior damage and be revenged, or so the ghost checks (not counters, they still die) can get a safe switch in. Every tried switching confagrious into crunch? even with mummy, the next turn khan eats it for breakfast, and can retain its threat, because 125 base attack is still powerful to KO a lot with it's now unblockable power up punch boosted attacks, combined with it's bulk and speed.
I'm a new member and a firsttime poster (this being my first post) but I want to state that I have read the forums often before becoming a member and reviewed the posts before posting.
I agree with all who vote for a poll. Bear in mind, my stance is leaning towards not banning Kanga's MegaStone. The counters have been stated and unlike Gengarite with multiple DIFFERENT viable sets (which has also been brought up in comparison), I've found that the players I've versed with Kanghaskhan have been very predictable due to similar builds. Rocket Helmet is an item I see often and definately makes Kanghaskhan stumble if the pokemon holding it switches in on it's MegaMorphosis turn.
I will express concern for the quick banning of MegaStones if this doesn't end with Kanghaskhan being brought into question. A topic for another thread, I'm sure, but I'll bring it up again with this post.
Thanks for reading this and I'm excited to join the discussions in the future.
I agree with all who vote for a poll. Bear in mind, my stance is leaning towards not banning Kanga's MegaStone. The counters have been stated and unlike Gengarite with multiple DIFFERENT viable sets (which has also been brought up in comparison), I've found that the players I've versed with Kanghaskhan have been very predictable due to similar builds. Rocket Helmet is an item I see often and definately makes Kanghaskhan stumble if the pokemon holding it switches in on it's MegaMorphosis turn.
I will express concern for the quick banning of MegaStones if this doesn't end with Kanghaskhan being brought into question. A topic for another thread, I'm sure, but I'll bring it up again with this post.
Thanks for reading this and I'm excited to join the discussions in the future.
Yeah. The issue with Mega Gengar was that its greatest strengths are less obvious. With Megaskhan, pretty much everyone understands how powerful it is because its roll as a sweeper is so direct. I personally think if there's a poll, its going to be really one sided compared to the Mega Gengar poll.
In short, its stats are uber level. Ban it
Mega Lucarios isn't getting banned, Hard counters do exist, and are common, and its pretty frail, allowing even neutral hits to kill. It cannot set up well with EQ everywhere. Mega luc, not getting banned. The ban should probably end here, unless the OU council has a problem with priority destiny bond. (they have before, even wynaught was once banned to ubers because of that. #babynation, #wy not?)
Mega Lucarios isn't getting banned, Hard counters do exist, and are common, and its pretty frail, allowing even neutral hits to kill. It cannot set up well with EQ everywhere. Mega luc, not getting banned. The ban should probably end here, unless the OU council has a problem with priority destiny bond. (they have before, even wynaught was once banned to ubers because of that. #babynation, #wy not?)
I'm a new member as well, but I've been following the forums and playing competitively for some time now.
I never had too much trouble with MegaGengar or MegKhan, but I could at least understand how Shadow Tag on MegaGar essentially guarantees a kill.
Here's the main weaknesses I see with Khan:
1. Obvious. If you see a Khan in team preview, you already know that's their mega and can prep for it accordingly.
2. Predictable. Nearly all Khan's run the same set:
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Crunch or SuckerPunch
I made my current team before MegaKhan was a popular threat, and I always find a way to deal with him.
Trevenant: Resists the first 3 moves mentioned. If Khan runs Crunch, my trev can take it and burn him right after (and my trev isn't even running max def EVs). Sitrus berry will activate and boom, I still have a relatively healthy Trev vs. a crippled Khan.
Gengar: SubDisable Gar works well if Khan isn't running Crunch. Just disable their Sucker when they predicted you to attack and you're free to wreak havoc.
Mega Absol (or any strong priority poke): If Khan is weakened enough by entry hazards, any fast poke with priority (or fast poke that resist Sucker) can threaten him.
If worst comes to worst, I send out my Klefki for the priority T-wave, allowing me to finish Khan off with a slower poke that can 1HKO him.
I will agree that there aren't very many reliable counters to Khan, but there are more than plenty checks to Khan (especially with entry hazards up).
That's just my two cents. I don't think she deserves to be banned, at least not yet.
I never had too much trouble with MegaGengar or MegKhan, but I could at least understand how Shadow Tag on MegaGar essentially guarantees a kill.
Here's the main weaknesses I see with Khan:
1. Obvious. If you see a Khan in team preview, you already know that's their mega and can prep for it accordingly.
2. Predictable. Nearly all Khan's run the same set:
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Crunch or SuckerPunch
I made my current team before MegaKhan was a popular threat, and I always find a way to deal with him.
Trevenant: Resists the first 3 moves mentioned. If Khan runs Crunch, my trev can take it and burn him right after (and my trev isn't even running max def EVs). Sitrus berry will activate and boom, I still have a relatively healthy Trev vs. a crippled Khan.
Gengar: SubDisable Gar works well if Khan isn't running Crunch. Just disable their Sucker when they predicted you to attack and you're free to wreak havoc.
Mega Absol (or any strong priority poke): If Khan is weakened enough by entry hazards, any fast poke with priority (or fast poke that resist Sucker) can threaten him.
If worst comes to worst, I send out my Klefki for the priority T-wave, allowing me to finish Khan off with a slower poke that can 1HKO him.
I will agree that there aren't very many reliable counters to Khan, but there are more than plenty checks to Khan (especially with entry hazards up).
That's just my two cents. I don't think she deserves to be banned, at least not yet.
People, just because I, nor anyone else, neither has the courage, strength or ENDURANCE to post here and find the calcs for all the so-called counters, please do so yourself.
This is our current calculator.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
Use it. Plug in the EVs, plug in the nature, plug in the moves (probably Return/SuckerPunch/PuP/Filler) and then use it's best available move to counter you as the filler. As someone who avidly runs stall, this is what you do: Take the best set and modify any fillers to work best against you so you know if it really counters. I have looked for weeks for counters and have come to the conclusion that three exist and none are viable. Cofagrigus (who doesn't take the parental bond part, it glitches in PS! occasionally over it), Sableye and infiltrator spiritomb are the only ones that can be called "counters" and I call sableye a check. Spiritomb and cofagrigus lack recovery so they generally need support just to work as a counter. That's pretty bad all around.
Oh, and did I mention scrappy Kan hits Sableye and Spiritomb for SE damage?
If you have such genius to design a counter that I have spent weeks looking for, please show me but don't make me do it. Your job is to prove to smogon and basically 9/10 people here that this monster is fine in OU. To win, you can't make quick, cute posts about rocky helmet shedinja doing like 17% damage, you have to clearly define and define again counters and prove their viability. Then, you have to respond to the best arguments stated so far, showing that you have read the thread. Does this seem like a hard task? Hell yes it is because you will NOT get past the first part. Still, feel free to respond to the major posts. There's one that page tops page three that's really good (done by the one who wrote the Kangaskhan analysis) and some other longer posts generally towards the beginning of the thread. If you refuse to respond to these, I have to gracefully responding to yours.
This is our current calculator.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
Use it. Plug in the EVs, plug in the nature, plug in the moves (probably Return/SuckerPunch/PuP/Filler) and then use it's best available move to counter you as the filler. As someone who avidly runs stall, this is what you do: Take the best set and modify any fillers to work best against you so you know if it really counters. I have looked for weeks for counters and have come to the conclusion that three exist and none are viable. Cofagrigus (who doesn't take the parental bond part, it glitches in PS! occasionally over it), Sableye and infiltrator spiritomb are the only ones that can be called "counters" and I call sableye a check. Spiritomb and cofagrigus lack recovery so they generally need support just to work as a counter. That's pretty bad all around.
Oh, and did I mention scrappy Kan hits Sableye and Spiritomb for SE damage?
If you have such genius to design a counter that I have spent weeks looking for, please show me but don't make me do it. Your job is to prove to smogon and basically 9/10 people here that this monster is fine in OU. To win, you can't make quick, cute posts about rocky helmet shedinja doing like 17% damage, you have to clearly define and define again counters and prove their viability. Then, you have to respond to the best arguments stated so far, showing that you have read the thread. Does this seem like a hard task? Hell yes it is because you will NOT get past the first part. Still, feel free to respond to the major posts. There's one that page tops page three that's really good (done by the one who wrote the Kangaskhan analysis) and some other longer posts generally towards the beginning of the thread. If you refuse to respond to these, I have to gracefully responding to yours.
Neither trevenant nor gengar can switch into crunch. Absol cannot switch into anything. They are not counters. Strong fighting types like terrakion and lucario are better checks, but still the point is that unless you have one of the few specific pokemons that can check him, we will kill 2 or 3 pkm of your team on his own. And regarding klefki, you are still pretty much sacrificing a pokemon just to get kanga paralyzed.
Is Kangaskhan being predictable really that good of an anti-ban argument? Even if it only runs one set, and even though you immediately know what its going to do when you see it in team preview, that set alone has the ability to tear through teams with little to no difficulty. You know exactly what it'll do, but is there much you can do about it?
The problem tho, 9/10 people are too lazy too do something so simple :P.
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