Scrappy bypasses the Ghost immunity, so it's pretty much a +1 Attack. Then flip on the Mega Switch and Crunch it up.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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This thread is cancer. I'm going to copypaste my post from the PO suspect discussion, where Kangaskhanite is already banned.
A team that doesn't have at least two answers to Mega Kangaskhan is probably going to be swept by it, and sometimes even two answers isn't enough. If WoW misses, or your Rocky Helmet Garchomp doesn't get off quite enough turns of recoil, you're screwed unless you brought three checks for the same mon.
As has already been mentioned, the burn itself isn't enough. At +2, Mega Kangaskhan is doing a crap ton of damage to anything short of a physical wall even with the burn.
Not to mention that Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support is really all it takes to give Mega Kangaskhan a second lease on life.
Mega Kangaskhan is definitely overcentralizing the way you have to build your team. I'm trying to liken this to, say, Scarf Terrakion last gen, and other top threats you obviously had to answer for when building your team, but with Mega Kangaskhan it just feels like any asshole can throw it on his team and spam PuP/Sucker Punch and have an immense advantage over his opponent. That to me feels broken.
A team that doesn't have at least two answers to Mega Kangaskhan is probably going to be swept by it, and sometimes even two answers isn't enough. If WoW misses, or your Rocky Helmet Garchomp doesn't get off quite enough turns of recoil, you're screwed unless you brought three checks for the same mon.
As has already been mentioned, the burn itself isn't enough. At +2, Mega Kangaskhan is doing a crap ton of damage to anything short of a physical wall even with the burn.
Not to mention that Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support is really all it takes to give Mega Kangaskhan a second lease on life.
Mega Kangaskhan is definitely overcentralizing the way you have to build your team. I'm trying to liken this to, say, Scarf Terrakion last gen, and other top threats you obviously had to answer for when building your team, but with Mega Kangaskhan it just feels like any asshole can throw it on his team and spam PuP/Sucker Punch and have an immense advantage over his opponent. That to me feels broken.
The switch-in to Spritiomb will be pretty obvious, you'll probably meet a crunch or eq. And even if Spiritomb is kinda solid, he only has utility against mega Kanga, he does not help you beat anything else, and since you are investing a lot in defenses, Sucker punches and shadow sneaks from Spiritomb will rarely revenge anything. So he'll be deadweight most of the time, not too mention hard countered by most fairy types, who does not care about anything he does, and the fact that he can barely take hits with his mediocre base hp.
Because Painsplit is SOO reliable right? it gets worn down really easy. and again, whats stopping Kang from Switching or what if your burn misses, Sableye recovers, Spiritomb dies. so its really pointless, run Sableye, its a shaky counter at a lenientt best.
:P yup you're right,the sense was that if a pokémon has a counter while wrecking 5/6 of the metagame that doesn't mean it should stay OU.
that would only affect one pokemon and will not happen. Complex bans are only done if it affects multiple pokemon.
Yeh, I got the point :P. A proper example would probably be something like Quag countering Kyogre, Kyogre for OU!
Kyogre OU NOW.
IMO, Mkanga definitely outclasses OU, but I don't see it doing well in Ubers. This can honestly be said about a lot of Megas. In fact, maybe this is an opportunity to put a new tier in place entirely. Maybe rather than keep putting Megas into Ubers, make a mega OU tier for teams built to combat Megas with OU in mind. This would force people to figure out how to combat all of the megas effectively while setting up for them and trying to stop others from setting up. Maybe this isn't the place for this post, but I think it's something to consider.
Since MegaKhan has such easy access to boosting, priority, and cannot be stopped by abilities like multiscale and sturdy, I think it will be banned as it is not unlikely for it to put itself in a position where it can sweep the majority of the team.
My opinion is that it should be banned because its a million times harder to deal with than Excadrill and Blaziken ever were. I usually end up having to sacrifice pokemon just to bring it down to earth (1 to burn it, and Goodra to slow it down), MegaKhan isn't banned, then I'll be really confused as to why Blaziken was. This Marsupial is infinitely more annoying than that chicken.
My opinion is that it should be banned because its a million times harder to deal with than Excadrill and Blaziken ever were. I usually end up having to sacrifice pokemon just to bring it down to earth (1 to burn it, and Goodra to slow it down), MegaKhan isn't banned, then I'll be really confused as to why Blaziken was. This Marsupial is infinitely more annoying than that chicken.
Keep in mind, though, that Ubers is a banlist first and foremost.
You should read some earlier posts, Mega Kanga destroys Lugia, one of the best walls in the game. And Ubers is a banlist, it does not matter if Mega Kanga is good in the tier or not.
Personally, I've been using Trevenant as a counter to Kangaskhan on my team to great success, although not specifically to counter Kanga, it just makes up a part of my Fire-Water-Grass core.
Unfortunately, builds with either Crunch or Substitute just ruin the Ghost checks. The set of Return/ Earthquake/ Crunch/ Power-Up Punch has pretty much perfect coverage, forgoing priority and then losing to faster Fighting type moves. But there isn't much that is faster than a base 100 Spe Pokemon that can reliably switch in. And to teams without a check / counter for Mega Kanga, what is there to do except to shortly lose the fight?
While the presence of certain items and Pokemon in the metagame might seem to suggest that Mega Kanga is not as OP as everyone thinks, when one considers that you have to use these Pokemon and Items to even stand a chance against a seasoned battler using Mega Kanga, then I would say that Kangaskhanite does hinder team building.
My vote is to regulate Kangaskhanite to Ubers.
Unfortunately, builds with either Crunch or Substitute just ruin the Ghost checks. The set of Return/ Earthquake/ Crunch/ Power-Up Punch has pretty much perfect coverage, forgoing priority and then losing to faster Fighting type moves. But there isn't much that is faster than a base 100 Spe Pokemon that can reliably switch in. And to teams without a check / counter for Mega Kanga, what is there to do except to shortly lose the fight?
While the presence of certain items and Pokemon in the metagame might seem to suggest that Mega Kanga is not as OP as everyone thinks, when one considers that you have to use these Pokemon and Items to even stand a chance against a seasoned battler using Mega Kanga, then I would say that Kangaskhanite does hinder team building.
My vote is to regulate Kangaskhanite to Ubers.
Keep in mind, that Ubers is a banlist first and a metagame second. And I'm not an avid Ubers-player, but I've seen enough matches recently to know that M-Khan is a fucking monster in Ubers. It's like E-Killer on crack that doesn't take up your Arceus-slot. And one-shots Lugia with a neutral STAB for that matter.
First of all... Yes, Mega Kangaskhan have it's counters, like any Pokémon. But the real question is: Does it have SOLID counters? Well, I don't think so.
Yes, you can say that its HP can be completely destroyed by Ferrothorn Rocky Helmet, but I'm tired of seeing Mega Kangaskhan users setting up Power-Up Punch on the Ferrothorn and then simply using Equake. This is enough to start a sweep. Also, something that I learned these days: Kangaskhan can learn Fire Blast WOW. Who cares about Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet when you can do a clean 71% damage with Fire Blast on a Ferrothorn with 252 EVs on HP and 208 on Sp. defense? And if you are not satisfied with a mixed set, you can also wait PokéBank and bring over your 5th gen Kangaskhan with Fire Punch.
One day, I was wondering what was the best way of "stopping" Mega Kangaskhan's rampage and I reached the conclusion that Skarmory can resist Mega Kangaskhan pretty well... Until I learned that Bite was becoming popular com Mega Kangaskhan because of the two chances of flinching, and with Steel losing it's Dark resistance, Bite can do 24% damage without Power-Up Punch boost. Also, you could run Mega Kangaskhan alongside Rotom, for example. If you don't want to be annoying with Bite, you could also run Crunch, with TWO CHANCES OF REDUCING SKARMORY'S DEFENSE. Why so OP, Mega Kangaskhan? Crunch, without attack boost, does a clean 31% damage to Skarmory. And Whirlwind wouldn't be a problem, because like someone said, Mega Kangaskhan doesn't care about being switched.
And it's so ridiculous how easy it is to set up Power-Up Punch that makes me laugh. But you can tell me "but in OU we have Conkeldurr and Breloom with Mach Punch, which destroys Mega Kangaskhan easily". All I'll say is NOOOOPE. Let's see some interesting calculations:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 257-304 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And, if your Breloom somehow survives tu set up Swords Dance...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 510-603 (144.8 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 416-491 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But you can also make a team with Mega Kangaskhan being the main Pokémon, with some of them being there just to support it, like a Dual Screens Espeon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 109-129 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 60.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 103-123 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 10.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 129-152 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 255-302 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This looks pretty bad huh? You see... Mega Kangaskhan is in a similar position with Garchomp. Physical sweeper, quite bulky for one... And Normal is a good defensive type, being weak only to Fighting and immune to Ghost, which became pretty popular in this generation.
Speaking of Ghost types... I saw some people saying that Aegislash can be pretty good to counter Mega Kangaskhan. Well... Nope. As a lot of people said before, Earthquake is extremely common with Mega Kangaskhan and as we already know, Earthquake doesn't make contact with the opponent, so... No attack drop after King's Shield. Also, you won't be using King's Shield forever, because your chances of succeeding on defending yourself will drop everytime you use, so you'll have to switch or sacrifice your Aegislash to a Sucker Punch, or Earthquake, or Shadow Claw or even Bite and Crunch, that are some examples that I said earlier.
Oh yeah, speaking of Shadow Claw, that remminded me of Trevenant. We all know how annoying this tree is, right? Harvesting it's Sitrus Berry 50% of the time, quite bulky, resists Earthquake, it's immune to Return, right? Yeah... Right. But... What about Shadow Claw AND Bite/Crunch? As we also know, Trevenant isn't fast enough to stop Mega Kangaskhan's rampage by simply using a Will-O-Wisp. It will simply die to one of these moves and gg.
If you're clever and original (or crazy, whatever fits better), you could use Galvantula with Gastro Acid to null Parental Bond, but I don't see this being effective, because you could simply switch out your MegaMonster Kangaskhan and everything would be ok.
Concluding my colossal text that also surprises me, I want to remind you all that I'm not saying that Mega Kangaskhan is invincible and should replace Arceus as the God (or Goddess, whatever) of the Pokémon World, but that is quite hard to destroy if you don't have a well balanced and prepared team... Or luck. If you really ban Mega Kangaskhan, it'll be great for Blaziken, because it'll have more to do than Passing Speed and/or Attack. If it remains OU, I would like to suggest that you make at least Blaziken with Blaze @Blazikenite OU, because it's the only Pokémon I see giving the kangaroo we all love (or hate) some trouble with its STAB High Jump Kick.
Yes, you can say that its HP can be completely destroyed by Ferrothorn Rocky Helmet, but I'm tired of seeing Mega Kangaskhan users setting up Power-Up Punch on the Ferrothorn and then simply using Equake. This is enough to start a sweep. Also, something that I learned these days: Kangaskhan can learn Fire Blast WOW. Who cares about Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet when you can do a clean 71% damage with Fire Blast on a Ferrothorn with 252 EVs on HP and 208 on Sp. defense? And if you are not satisfied with a mixed set, you can also wait PokéBank and bring over your 5th gen Kangaskhan with Fire Punch.
One day, I was wondering what was the best way of "stopping" Mega Kangaskhan's rampage and I reached the conclusion that Skarmory can resist Mega Kangaskhan pretty well... Until I learned that Bite was becoming popular com Mega Kangaskhan because of the two chances of flinching, and with Steel losing it's Dark resistance, Bite can do 24% damage without Power-Up Punch boost. Also, you could run Mega Kangaskhan alongside Rotom, for example. If you don't want to be annoying with Bite, you could also run Crunch, with TWO CHANCES OF REDUCING SKARMORY'S DEFENSE. Why so OP, Mega Kangaskhan? Crunch, without attack boost, does a clean 31% damage to Skarmory. And Whirlwind wouldn't be a problem, because like someone said, Mega Kangaskhan doesn't care about being switched.
And it's so ridiculous how easy it is to set up Power-Up Punch that makes me laugh. But you can tell me "but in OU we have Conkeldurr and Breloom with Mach Punch, which destroys Mega Kangaskhan easily". All I'll say is NOOOOPE. Let's see some interesting calculations:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 257-304 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And, if your Breloom somehow survives tu set up Swords Dance...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 510-603 (144.8 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Mega Kangaskhan: 416-491 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But you can also make a team with Mega Kangaskhan being the main Pokémon, with some of them being there just to support it, like a Dual Screens Espeon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 109-129 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 60.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 103-123 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 10.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 129-152 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Mega Kangaskhan through Reflect: 255-302 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This looks pretty bad huh? You see... Mega Kangaskhan is in a similar position with Garchomp. Physical sweeper, quite bulky for one... And Normal is a good defensive type, being weak only to Fighting and immune to Ghost, which became pretty popular in this generation.
Speaking of Ghost types... I saw some people saying that Aegislash can be pretty good to counter Mega Kangaskhan. Well... Nope. As a lot of people said before, Earthquake is extremely common with Mega Kangaskhan and as we already know, Earthquake doesn't make contact with the opponent, so... No attack drop after King's Shield. Also, you won't be using King's Shield forever, because your chances of succeeding on defending yourself will drop everytime you use, so you'll have to switch or sacrifice your Aegislash to a Sucker Punch, or Earthquake, or Shadow Claw or even Bite and Crunch, that are some examples that I said earlier.
Oh yeah, speaking of Shadow Claw, that remminded me of Trevenant. We all know how annoying this tree is, right? Harvesting it's Sitrus Berry 50% of the time, quite bulky, resists Earthquake, it's immune to Return, right? Yeah... Right. But... What about Shadow Claw AND Bite/Crunch? As we also know, Trevenant isn't fast enough to stop Mega Kangaskhan's rampage by simply using a Will-O-Wisp. It will simply die to one of these moves and gg.
If you're clever and original (or crazy, whatever fits better), you could use Galvantula with Gastro Acid to null Parental Bond, but I don't see this being effective, because you could simply switch out your Mega
Concluding my colossal text that also surprises me, I want to remind you all that I'm not saying that Mega Kangaskhan is invincible and should replace Arceus as the God (or Goddess, whatever) of the Pokémon World, but that is quite hard to destroy if you don't have a well balanced and prepared team... Or luck. If you really ban Mega Kangaskhan, it'll be great for Blaziken, because it'll have more to do than Passing Speed and/or Attack. If it remains OU, I would like to suggest that you make at least Blaziken with Blaze @Blazikenite OU, because it's the only Pokémon I see giving the kangaroo we all love (or hate) some trouble with its STAB High Jump Kick.
FYI, Mega Kanga is allowed in Ubers. Every mon is allowed in Ubers. I doubt being banned would effect her usage in Ubers as her viability won't be effected.
As per Blaziken, first off, its Mega form is obviously broken in OU, given its regular form is. Second off, Blaze Blaziken is banned because of the whole no-complex-bans rule. I hate that I can't use Blaze in lower tiers, but unless we start banning abilities rather than pokemon then it's not gonna happen.
(Per Conkeldurr, if you haven't tried it with Assault Vest, you haven't lived. So bulk.)
It frightens me that people have liked your post. How is using up a Mega Evolution spot a negative thing when Kangaskhan has the bulk to setup a +2 almost guaranteed and then proceed to OHKO everything with it's ability? Have you even looked at usage statistics or are you just pulling this shit straight out of your ass? Gengar was number 4 and Kangaskhan was number 6 in usage respectively. You're being way too over-dramatic about the shift in megas while failing to realize that 2 spots in the Top 10 doesn't mean anything.
If you haven't noticed already by your illogical thinking, people are just shifting to other megas which all should be banned (yes, Lucarionite should be banned because his ability like all other megas that are broken, is way too powerful). There will come a point where people will use perfectly balanced megas that are easily countered/checked but this WILL ONLY come when the broken megas are taken care of. This has nothing to do with being "ban happy". Every ban that Smogon has made has a thought-out argument behind it unlike your plead to keep using a mega which is totally unhealthy for the OU metagame. There is no extensive testing needed. Mega Kangaskhan will always setup a +2 and will then proceed to dispose you and your team.
Nobody uses Bite on Kangaskhan.
Nothing uses Bite at all.
Unless you have Serene Grace, fishing for flinches is a terrible strategy.
Don't ever mention Bite in a serious competitive discussion ever again.
Nega Blaziken automaticly gets speed boost, so they can't bring the mega stone down. And normal Blaziken can't beat Kanga at all, it's normal form is too slow. Not too mention that you would be speed tying if you mega'd, putting the enitre game on a fifty fifty. And it's much more difficult to find the time to mega evolve Blaziken, then it is too find a moment for Kanga.
And generally, people need to stop bringing up complex bans or unbanning of stuff, none of it has anything to do with Mega Kanga's banning, and is not gonna happen because you mentioned it in this thread.
Its coverage is absolutely massive and it seems like other than Gourgeist-Super, spectacular prediction, and stupid moves, nothing can take down this monster.
I used Bite as an example because, believe it or not, I already saw Mega Kangaskhan running Bite, and it's flinching hax was pretty effective.
And I understand that I overhyped myself when I said to make Blaziken with Blaze @Blazikenite OU. I'm sorry for this ;w;
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Only 50% of Gengar ran with Gengarnite.
Kangaskhanite was more popular than Gengarnite, and was the most popular Mega in November. In the November metagame where Mega-Gengar ran free... Mega-Khan was the more preferred mega.
To develop on the points above, Kangaskhan isn't without counters/ checks. As mentioned, burns will hurt him bad, as they would any physical attacker. Rocky Helmet users like Skarmory and Ferrothorn combined with Sableye (a combo I currently run) don't struggle with him. However, the problem is the need to run either M-Kanga, or an M-Kanga counter at all times, or face death. It's like when Staraptor was banned from B/W UU. If I recall correctly, he pretty much tore through the metagame, leaving you running either Staraptor, or his thin counter list. It's a similar scenario here where, despite his predictability, Kangaskhan is too dominant to be allowed free roam in OU. Even though his checks are relatively common, they are few in number and really limit the options of the metagame, which I feel is the real issue here.
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