Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Numera]

Im losing brain cells reading some of these anti ban arguments.

Arcanine sucks. Let's face it. If I am forced to use a sayble or Cofag just because of 1 pokemon, then it's over centralizing and Ban worthy. It doesn't matter if the counter is good, if it's from like NU or RU, possibly even UU, it's kind of over centralizing. You can't say HO-OH isn't OP cause it's countered by like Regirock or something

 

[Pikadooder]

Okay, sorry guys! I'm trying to keep it relevant, but I am really new. I'll try to do better if I ever decide to weigh in on another discussion. Thank you for the valuable insight as I continue to do my best to learn the ropes. I understand if these are deleted due to relevance, but I feel the need to thank everyone and apologize to the people who were bothered by them.

 

[Subpar]

Is there even a need to further discuss this? All we are doing right now is refuting that Arcanine can tank this thing when it really, really, really can't unless you factor in shit like Burns.

EDIT: Np, hope you learnt something new :)

 

[Stormbrigader]

We must ban this thing. It's so broken it's not even any fun using.

 

[JacobMesecar]

I personally think Kangaskhan isn't that bad. We had a local tournament over here. Sure, nothing serious like most of us are here I'll give you that. But I had a friend who is alright competitively imo use Kangaskhan-M and honestly most of the time it was taken out before it killed any more than one of his opponent's. Aegislash I feel is a pretty good counter to him and I could name more than a few tanks that could take it down. Sure they'd be at low hp, but really?

I will agree that Power-Up Punch is broken as hell as is Seismic Toss, but it's nothing a good team can't take down.

 

[WindNaruto]

Ban this thing... realy

 

[Own3y]

I really don't mind you guys banning or not Mega Kanga, but what I rly have to say is that even having some counters like Defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp or any Ghost Type if Kanga lacks Crunch, I don't feel it is overpowered. It has standard speed (base 100) and is weak to common priority named mainly Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch, and also it takes some good damage from Banded Dragonite ExtremeSpeed or Lucario / Scizor Bullet Punch.

Yeah Mega Kangaskhan is powerful but what I really think is that tons of people only can't deal with this monster, but please you all can see that there are other mon BROKEN AS HELL named Mega Lucario NP. With NO counters, good speed, extreme satk and nasty plot for the boost and a good typing, I really think you pentagon should consider this more than this Kanga Mom.

 

[Uvood]

We must ban this thing. It's so broken it's not even any fun using.

Well, most people like winning :P. Most of us might see Kanga's brokenness, but for many, they see an easy way to get a lot of wins. My brother had a match where, if he had any other poke than mega Kanga, he would have lost, but he won because that was his last poke. Now, coming back from such a situation is serious hype, and exhilarating. So, some might end up getting bored, but I think the majority of people is gonna find it very fun to win, especially since, unless you're playing a high ranked player, most lower ranked players won't know how to respond, or even carry any pokes to properly deal with him. I'd argue that is also one of the reasons to ban Kanga, not only is he really good, it does not take to much too make you win with him either.

 

[Numera]

I personally think Kangaskhan isn't that bad. We had a local tournament over here. Sure, nothing serious like most of us are here I'll give you that. But I had a friend who is alright competitively imo use Kangaskhan-M and honestly most of the time it was taken out before it killed any more than one of his opponent's. Aegislash I feel is a pretty good counter to him and I could name more than a few tanks that could take it down. Sure they'd be at low hp, but really?

I will agree that Power-Up Punch is broken as hell as is Seismic Toss, but it's nothing a good team can't take down.

Aegislash? No. Just no. EQ ends thins thing.

A "Good team" would probably have to have Sayble or Cofag to beat it, which again is Over Centralizing. I personally think it's OP as hell.

 

[FadedChameleon]

I for one think Mega-Mom Should stay in OU or At least not be quickbanned I feel that it's only really dangerous when it sets up to +2 with PUP and that makes in very predictable. You can stall it out with a Harvest Trevenant with leech-seed, Toxic/WoW and sub and the standard Mega Kanga set that I see (PuP, Fake Out, Return, Sucker Punch) is walled so kenga has to run either crunch or EQ or something else.

It's dangerous for sure, but because it's predictable it means you can play around it. Also just run something with rocky helmet and it kills itself.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I won't sound fancy on the post, and please don't think I'm trying to act like a smart aleck. But for those defending Mega Khan, you realize that you're defending a mon' with a 105/125/100/60/100/100 base spread, perfect coverage, one weakness, and can attack twice in one turn right? It's rather clear that Mega Kangaskhan has a home in ubers where it can roam freely amongst the gods.

 

[Legitimate Username]

I for one think Mega-Mom Should stay in OU or At least not be quickbanned I feel that it's only really dangerous when it sets up to +2 with PUP and that makes in very predictable. You can stall it out with a Harvest Trevenant with leech-seed, Toxic/WoW and sub and the standard Mega Kanga set that I see (PuP, Fake Out, Return, Sucker Punch) is walled so kenga has to run either crunch or EQ or something else.

It's dangerous for sure, but because it's predictable it means you can play around it. Also just run something with rocky helmet and it kills itself.

Anyone who runs both Fake Out and Power-up Punch is really not that good a player. Fake Out abuses switching in and out, while Power-up Punch requires you to stay in to keep the boosts.

Trevenant can't tank Crunch at all so it's an extremely bad counter.

Also, the predictability argument fails because you predict that it will destroy your entire team with that stupid base 212 Attack all you want, but there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. It's just that uncounterable.

 

[Dragontamer]

Standard Khan, as far as Smogon is concerned, is:

Power up Punch
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Return

People need to base their arguments on THIS set. Or... weird crap like the 200 dmg Seismic toss / wish set (since that is soooo far out in left-field, most people are caught totally unprepared for it). But offensive Khan is the above, and is only really "stopped" by M-Mawile (who doesn't like Fire Punch / Fire Blast / Earthquake). Oh, and Sableye of course.

And don't even think about brining up Klefki:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Klefki: 202-240 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Klefki gets the T-Wave, but Khan KOs with Power-up Punch + Return + Stealth Rocks.

 

[Numera]

I for one think Mega-Mom Should stay in OU or At least not be quickbanned I feel that it's only really dangerous when it sets up to +2 with PUP and that makes in very predictable. You can stall it out with a Harvest Trevenant with leech-seed, Toxic/WoW and sub and the standard Mega Kanga set that I see (PuP, Fake Out, Return, Sucker Punch) is walled so kenga has to run either crunch or EQ or something else.

It's dangerous for sure, but because it's predictable it means you can play around it. Also just run something with rocky helmet and it kills itself.

Rocky helmet would AGIAN be over centralizing because it's a rarer and normally bad item.

Having a counter doesn't instantly make it OK, btw. I can counter HO-OH with regirock, doesn't make HO OH bad

 

[Mood4food77]

I really don't mind you guys banning or not Mega Kanga, but what I rly have to say is that even having some counters like Defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp or any Ghost Type if Kanga lacks Crunch, I don't feel it is overpowered. It has standard speed (base 100) and is weak to common priority named mainly Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch, and also it takes some good damage from Banded Dragonite ExtremeSpeed or Lucario / Scizor Bullet Punch.

Yeah Mega Kangaskhan is powerful but what I really think is that tons of people only can't deal with this monster, but please you all can see that there are other mon BROKEN AS HELL named Mega Lucario NP. With NO counters, good speed, extreme satk and nasty plot for the boost and a good typing, I really think you pentagon should consider this more than this Kanga Mom.

vacuum wave and mach punch are common priority? outside of breloom, i haven't seen these moves used (not like breloom is that common anyways)
yea he takes a good amount of damage from Espeed and bullet punch from some pokes, but so does everyone else

but most things can't destroy the opponents team on 1 measly mistake, he also has moves that can get around the rocky helmet shenanigans, but here's 2 calcs just to prove it

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 186-222 (44.2 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 186-222 (52.8 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yup, these are adamant calcs

 

[Uvood]

I really don't mind you guys banning or not Mega Kanga, but what I rly have to say is that even having some counters like Defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp or any Ghost Type if Kanga lacks Crunch, I don't feel it is overpowered. It has standard speed (base 100) and is weak to common priority named mainly Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch, and also it takes some good damage from Banded Dragonite ExtremeSpeed or Lucario / Scizor Bullet Punch.

Yeah Mega Kangaskhan is powerful but what I really think is that tons of people only can't deal with this monster, but please you all can see that there are other mon BROKEN AS HELL named Mega Lucario NP. With NO counters, good speed, extreme satk and nasty plot for the boost and a good typing, I really think you pentagon should consider this more than this Kanga Mom.

Out of all your priority you mention, there is only a few pokes who can actually get a hit in on Kanga. Kanga outspeed Scizor, and can probably kill it at +2 if it's weakened enough or was hit by pup on the switch in. Extremespeed is unavailable for Dragonite in OU beta, so that only counts for pokebank. Mach punch is only commonly used by Breloom, Conk and Infernape(pokebank), and Breloom and Infernape struggles to take hits. Lucario can vacuum wave, extremespeed or bullet punch, and is faster after mega, so that's the most reliable one, but you actually have to fina a turn to mega on first. But that does not take into account the fact that none of these one hit ko. Mega Kanga can simply just take a hit and kill them off. And it's not like they can try and get fancy with predictions, since all of them are practically one hit koed by the appropriate move.

I am surprised you did not mention Gale wing Brave bird though, because that is the absolute most reliable priority atm for kanga, with 164 speed ev's you outpseed by 1 point and hit it with a brave bird before it can Sucker Punch you.

 

[Saxgu]

In my personal experience my defensive slowbro managed to defeat a mega khangaskan without even doing anything thanks to its rocky helmet, since it´s best moves are contact moves it received double rocky helmet damage, i just had to slack off. I think i would work the same with the iron barbs ability, o even combinig iron barbs and rocky helmet but i think it´s not that common.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

i think the fact that anti-ban people are even proposing things like arcanine in the first place to check it already speaks for itself how overwhelming it is

imho if kangaskhan didn't have either pup or sucker punch it'd be a lot more manageable, probably even not banned.

mk really only has 1 pokemon that counters it on a somewhat reliable basis which also results in a gigantic fuckton of loss of momentum for the opponent. you can support mk with strong knock off users (land-t, deoxys-d/s and weavile comes to mind) to remove scarfs and helmets. on the basis of helmets: just a piece of anecdotal evidence that may not apply to all: i haven't seen a single pokemon run helmet until after mk started running rampant across the entire tier, and even then it's still not that difficult to check pokemon with helmet. helmet also prevents pokemon from running other things that really benefit it more (ferrothorn definitely appreciates leftovers for some extra flexibility, not helmet and forced leech seed just to check a fucking kangaroo).

FadedChameleon trevenant dies to crunch

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 357-423 (95.4 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(357, 363, 366, 372, 375, 378, 384, 387, 393, 396, 399, 405, 408, 414, 417, 423)

above calc is if trevenant switches in on scrappy PUP

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 240-285 (64.1 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(240, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285)
still half-dead

also standard never runs fake out, the standard is pup/sucker punch/return/crunch, EQ or fire punch

also ffs just because something is countered by something doesn't mean it's not broken, or something lacks a counter doesnt mean its broken either. gen5 hydreigon is a good example of something without a counter. definitely not broken, and was on danger of slipping to uu at the end of gen5 along with haxorus. kyogre is countered by shedinja. kyogre for ou pls. really, mk's ability to steamroll teams fairly easily is really telling. the best 'check' to it is wearing it down with random shit + rocky helmet, then sending in talonflame to suicide in its face. and you can still switch out. you need two, maybe even three pokemon just to check mk. how the fuck is that not ridiculous? for one pokemon you get to kill off two of your opponent's pokemon (sacrificial helmetmon, talonflame if its going into rocks). fuck no pls, ban

 

[Own3y]

vacuum wave and mach punch are common priority? outside of breloom, i haven't seen these moves used (not like breloom is that common anyways)
yea he takes a good amount of damage from Espeed and bullet punch from some pokes, but so does everyone else

but most things can't destroy the opponents team on 1 measly mistake, he also has moves that can get around the rocky helmet shenanigans, but here's 2 calcs just to prove it

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 186-222 (44.2 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 186-222 (52.8 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yup, these are adamant calcs

Yo bro, Mega Lucario Nasty Plot usaually runs Vacuum Wave, and yh beyond breloom no more pokes uses mach but breloom sometimes can appear.

 

[UnboundChaotic]

One thing to keep in mind for Mega Khan is the fact you don't have to run Return. Sure, it hits hard, but as an option one can run Dizzy Punch where EACH HIT HAS AN INDEPENDENT CHANCE TO CONFUSE.

Anything that can break most of the metagame (minus a few very specialized and specific checks) just makes everything no fun.

Let Khan wreak havoc in Ubers. It's just too strong for OU.

 

[Exeggutive]

Not sure why this is suspected before mega luke or at the same time but mega khan is broken as hell lol.

Running shit like helmet skam and sabeleye just for this guy is a bit much and extremely over centeralizing

o ya It has higher natural bulk than jirachi and priority dark attacks, which make revenge killing even more difficult. If dark wasn't such a good attack type, idk if it'd be as good but rather not theorymon around.

Ban this thing

 

[TheMohZone]

I personally think Kangaskhan isn't that bad. We had a local tournament over here. Sure, nothing serious like most of us are here I'll give you that. But I had a friend who is alright competitively imo use Kangaskhan-M and honestly most of the time it was taken out before it killed any more than one of his opponent's. Aegislash I feel is a pretty good counter to him and I could name more than a few tanks that could take it down. Sure they'd be at low hp, but really?

I will agree that Power-Up Punch is broken as hell as is Seismic Toss, but it's nothing a good team can't take down.

Crunch and Sucker Punch beat Aegislash, no questions asked, should Kang be at +1 from a scrappy PUP.
+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This is the best possible scenario for slash.

I really don't mind you guys banning or not Mega Kanga, but what I rly have to say is that even having some counters like Defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp or any Ghost Type if Kanga lacks Crunch, I don't feel it is overpowered. It has standard speed (base 100) and is weak to common priority named mainly Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch, and also it takes some good damage from Banded Dragonite ExtremeSpeed or Lucario / Scizor Bullet Punch.

Yeah Mega Kangaskhan is powerful but what I really think is that tons of people only can't deal with this monster, but please you all can see that there are other mon BROKEN AS HELL named Mega Lucario NP. With NO counters, good speed, extreme satk and nasty plot for the boost and a good typing, I really think you pentagon should consider this more than this Kanga Mom.

Lucario is also frail as shit in a priority filled Metagame. its good. Its really good. but it can't live hits like Kang kan

(Puns) It also can't boast the ability to vapourize Skarm with a resisted hit. Lukes best niche right now is being the best revenge killer to Mega Kang.

I for one think Mega-Mom Should stay in OU or At least not be quickbanned I feel that it's only really dangerous when it sets up to +2 with PUP and that makes in very predictable. You can stall it out with a Harvest Trevenant with leech-seed, Toxic/WoW and sub and the standard Mega Kanga set that I see (PuP, Fake Out, Return, Sucker Punch) is walled so kenga has to run either crunch or EQ or something else.

It's dangerous for sure, but because it's predictable it means you can play around it. Also just run something with rocky helmet and it kills itself.

firstly if your run a ghost, kang will crunch as you switch in (PEOPLE STOP MENTIONING FAKE OUT!) or scrappy PuP after that its dead,

 

[Exeggutive]

Not sure why this is suspected before mega luke or at the same time but mega khan is broken as hell lol.

Running shit like helmet skam and sabeleye just for this guy is a bit much and extremely over centeralizing

o ya It has higher natural bulk than jirachi and priority dark attacks, which make revenge killing even more difficult. If dark wasn't such a good attack type, idk if it'd be as good but rather not theorymon around.

Ban this thing

 

[Devon Keats]

IMO, this thing has enough counters to allow it to stay in OU. WOW, Substitute, Ghosts, anything with a damaging ability + rock helmet, etc.

Tell you the truth in my opinion, Mega Khan has very little out's to him. Especially when he set's up a double power up punch. We can then proceed to OhK.O any pok'emon after that with sucker punch's. I think that this a good choice on Nintendo's part.

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

I don't even know what to add to this disgussion anymore, one of the genious things one said: it can choose what walls it. Now at first glance you might think: "omg so its not broken because it still gets walled." but its allmost the same deal as with mega gengar, choosing his targets. The only things that can reliably counter its most common set is something that outspeeds it, not a solution, a smart player will either: A) Switch out B) Make sure the things that outspeed mega kangaskhan are gone before going in and then theres cofagrigus and sableye, which tbh are both pretty terrible things to be forced to run. Sableye is only made good by its priority status, its the only thing that its got going for it is that it can priority status you and priority recover and annoy your ass to hell. Its still a terrible pokemon, I will not let my kangaskhan get burned, if I see a sableye come in, I switch out. And NO a trevenant will not wall my kangaskhan. 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. This is without +2 PuP.

This is after: +2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 435-513 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. So your trevenant walls my kangaskhan how again?

I say ban this damn thing, because it can run perfect coverage and again like said, choose what walls it. It can switch out to something that kills its counter, switch back in and set up again just as easily as before. I don't see how this is not ubers worthy? Its like a reversed mega gengar, instead of choosing what to kill it, it chooses what can wall it. If your team doesn't happen to have the thing that walls it, too bad, gg. This thing can run pretty much perfect coverage to kill entire teams. And it has INCREDIBLE bulk. I have had many times when using something that is super effective vs it and it surviving which has just screwed me over entirely.