Imminent Big Change: Keldeo

[Dark Arceus]

Actually, my team in DW does not have a Keldeo check, because as long as the weather isn't rain, Keldeo loses one powerful STAB, and (Secret/Scared?) Sword only has 85 base power. Because of this, I could defeat it with my Ninetales. Also, there are a bunch of physical Keldeos in DW probably due to its superior physical movepool.

It's physical move pool is by no means superior. This is saying 72 is better than it's 129 sp. atk. All Keldeo has on the Physical side is Swords Dance, Aqua Jet, Close Combat, Sacred Sword (If stat drops aren't appealing), Aqua Tail (if priority isn't appealing (lol)) and that's essentially it. This coupled with low attack clearly makes special the superior option (Unless you wana take a gamble with swords dance). It's special move pool is really lacking too though but it's enough to get the job done (Calm Mind with great sp. atk and decent enough sp. def along with STAB Hydro Pump and Secret Sword). And Ninetails is severally damaged if switched on to Keldeo's Sword or Pump and if it switches in on Calm Mind it fails to do to much in retaliation.

Hoping resolution form doesn't change around stats myself. I'd rather not have an attack stat boost and have to have secret sword.

Also hoping Keldeo won't be banned to Ubers. It's special Terrakion with a different benefit from weather. Terrakion get's special defense boost in sand while Keldeo get's hard hitting STAB. I mean I get the counter are kinda hard to come by but there's always wear down with hazards and out speed it I guess...

 

[gamer40000]

Actually, my team in DW does not have a Keldeo check, because as long as the weather isn't rain, Keldeo loses one powerful STAB, and (Secret/Scared?) Sword only has 85 base power. Because of this, I could defeat it with my Ninetales. Also, there are a bunch of physical Keldeos in DW probably due to its superior physical movepool.

The only Ninetales that stands a chance against Keldeo after Stealth Rock/1 layer of Spikes is the Specially Defensive one, and that will leave your Ninetales with 27% of it's heath at best after switching in to Secret Sword. Also, that Ninetales has to switch out quickly no matter what because Keldeo outspeeds and has a incredibly high chance of 2HKOing even if you switch in to HP Ghost.

 

[DaRkRaii]

I doubt you have nearly the same experience as me in DW. If Physical Keldeo's are running around then you're facing terribad people. Keldeo's Hydro Pump is so strong it murders's resists. Mind you the base 85 power is coming off its massive 129 Base SP ATK, not accounting boosts+STAB and it hits a target's physical side, making it one of the best and nearly non counterable sweepers in the game. You can bring up Jellicent, but many Keldeo's if not all run HP Electric or HP Ghost, the latter giving unparalled neutral coverage on everything in the game. Keldeo is so strong that its a check to rain itself because of how powerful it is in the rain.

Expect to see a lot of Keldeo+Terrakion wallbreaking core's in OU once it is released. It breaks down basically everything.

 

[jle1076]

How does its horn look like a dildo? Are you a 5 year old? Specs + STAB Hydro Pump in the Rain will 2HKO Dragonite and even Starmie lol which it will most likely run HP Ghost like listed HUNDREDS OF TIMES on this SAME THREAD

 

[frogoholic101]

How does its horn look like a dildo? Are you a 5 year old? Specs + STAB Hydro Pump in the Rain will 2HKO Dragonite and even Starmie lol which it will most likely run HP Ghost like listed HUNDREDS OF TIMES on this SAME THREAD

Why are we always assuming Rain is up? Let's not start theorymonning when there's favourable weather on the opposing side, full layers of spikes up as well as Stealth Rock, and Keldeo's moveset consists of Hydro Pump/HP Ice/HP Electric/HP Ghost/Secret Sword/Calm Mind/Substitute and has Lefties/Life Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf. It can't run everything all at once.
Regardless of what happens, it has its counters and the Dream World tier has shown it is good but far from broken.

 

[canno]

Wait, how is it going to be mid-OU? Hydro Pump and Secret Sword hit insanely hard (with or without rain). It's special terrakion that trades great STAB combo for a 70 BP coverage move and a decent STAB combo, plus crazy-strong Hydro Pump in the rain. There isn't a lot of pokemon that can wall it, especially in the rain. It's at least mid-high OU material, if not top-tier OU.

 

[ginganinja]

Why are we always assuming Rain is up?

Because it is exceptionally hard to change the weather against Keldeo. For example, say I bring my Politoed in to set up rain, you have 2 choices, you can try and switch in on Politoed, or you can switch to something like Ferrothorn to tank a water move, while I then double switch to Keldeo to abuse my rain. I am aware the prediction argument goes both ways, but the point I am making is that neither Tyrantiar, Abomasnow, or Ninetales can switch in on a Sacred Sword (if its Specs) and Ninetales and Tyranitar don't particularly like switching into a Specs Hydro Pump either. Sure, Keldeo does have its (few) counters, and it is very possible that rain will not be up all the time, however, against a well played Keldeo keeping your own weather up is VERY tricky.

 

[doughboy]

To spice this thread up a bit, do you guys have any tiering predictions due to Keldeo? I personally think Roserade will rise from UU to OU because of Toxic Spikes and resisting her STABS (though that shitty defense gets in the way).

 

[purple crobatchop]

Definitely top tier OU Pokemon, but probably won't make it to uber since it's not that versatile in terms of possible sets, and still gets walled by only a handful even with hidden power coverage. No Ice Beam lol.

 

[ginganinja]

To spice this thread up a bit, do you guys have any tiering predictions due to Keldeo? I personally think Roserade will rise from UU to OU because of Toxic Spikes and resisting her STABS (though that shitty defense gets in the way).

I think that Latias will peak in usage, as well as Politoed and perhaps Jellicent. Pursuit users might also rise, in attempt to trap these pokemon. I don't think Roserade will see too much of an increase, people will still be more attracted to Tentacruel, which also resists the Keldeo STAB, and generally fits easier on teams with Rapid Spin and suchlike.

 

[Taylor]

Tentacruel vs. Jellicent will be down to whether or not Keldeo is running Substitute or Hidden Power [Ghost]. I'd like to think the Calm Mind set should run Substitute as its fourth move, and Water/Fighting into one Pokemon is the main selling point so a strong Dark-type to support Keldeo against its counters: Lati@S/Jellicent/etc.

The Substitute set would force Jellicent to at least waste Scald PP. Besides, for a more comprehensive strategy revolving around an effective dual-typing offensive sweeper, it makes sense to run a move where you can cushion any blows whilst simultaniously setting up Calm Mind boosts and preparing to sweep; so long as the opponent does not break the Sub before sending in their Psyshock Alakazam/Lati@S.

Regardless, Specs Keldeo will sport those monsterous Water moves in rain to the point where many players will soon get fed up having to deal with a very dangerous weather abuser.

Imagine a critical hit Hydro Pump; good night.

 

[jg1198]

obvious rise of tornadus, jolteon, and raikou. slight rise of other speedy threats like starmie, and perhaps aerodactyl.

 

[IcyMan28]

How does Amoongus normally fare against Keldeo in DW OU? It has been confirmed to be available with Regenerator in BW2, so it might serve as a deterrent to the pony.

 

[iamdanielcruces]

Don't know about DW, but here are some calcs.
Specs Keldeo in rain vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss:
Hydro Pump: 199-235 = 46.1%-54.4%
Secret Sword: 152-179 = 35.2%-41.4%
HP Ghost: 104-123= 24.1%-28.5%

Hydro Pump has a chance for a 2HKO, but there's a higher chance that Keldeo will be eating a (hallucinogenic?) Spore to the face.

 

[Saitsuofleaves]

Don't know about DW, but here are some calcs.
Specs Keldeo in rain vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss:
Hydro Pump: 199-235 = 46.1%-54.4%
Secret Sword: 152-179 = 35.2%-41.4%
HP Ghost: 104-123= 24.1%-28.5%

Hydro Pump has a chance for a 2HKO, but there's a higher chance that Keldeo will be eating a (hallucinogenic?) Spore to the face.

And then with Regenerator, Amoonguss just don't give a crap about the Hydro Pump.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Don't know about DW, but here are some calcs.
Specs Keldeo in rain vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss:
Hydro Pump: 199-235 = 46.1%-54.4%
Secret Sword: 152-179 = 35.2%-41.4%
HP Ghost: 104-123= 24.1%-28.5%

Hydro Pump has a chance for a 2HKO, but there's a higher chance that Keldeo will be eating a (hallucinogenic?) Spore to the face.

A good check but not a counter. It cant switch into a hydro Pump to the face.

 

[alexwolf]

Don't know about DW, but here are some calcs.
Specs Keldeo in rain vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss:
Hydro Pump: 199-235 = 46.1%-54.4%
Secret Sword: 152-179 = 35.2%-41.4%
HP Ghost: 104-123= 24.1%-28.5%

Hydro Pump has a chance for a 2HKO, but there's a higher chance that Keldeo will be eating a (hallucinogenic?) Spore to the face.

These calcs are for Modest Keldeo though, which is bad. This is the calc for Timid Keldeo's HP vs Amoonguss: 41.89 - 49.3%. So without SR you can take 2, but with SR you have a 32% chance to get 2hkoed (20% if you factor in Hydro Pump's accuracy).

 

[IcyMan28]

In any case it seems like a decent check. Calm Mind Keldeo in particular won't be able to get past it without a Sub, so I guess it has that going for it.

 

[alexwolf]

Even with a Sub, Clear Smog would remove the boosts i think. Doesn't Clear Smog work even behind subs?

 

[Dr Ciel]

No, Clear Smog does not work on Subs.

 

[doughboy]

One thing I should note about Keldeo is one of the biggest threats to our favorite moth: Volcarona. Mothra can't unleash its power because Keldeo resists both of its STABS and it can outspeed when it is unboosted or wreck it in the rain. It even resists HP Rock!However, it won't provide as big as an issue as say Terrakion in the Sand (rock types get a 1.5 sp. def boost).

Volcarona does have hope however, if it receives Earth Power as a move tutor it can potentially smash through Keldeo because of the increased base power vs HP Ground. Earth Power does 56.03 - 66.25% to the pony @+1 with offensive Volcarona (with lefties and modest) while HP Ground does 43.65 - 51.7%. That is a 3HKO vs a 2HKO against lefties keldeo with no defensive investment (think cm). The same is true without a boost, a 4HKO (hp ground) vs a 3HKO.

 

[ginganinja]

One thing I should note about Keldeo is one of the biggest threats to our favorite moth: Volcarona. Mothra can't unleash its power because Keldeo resists both of its STABS and it can outspeed when it is unboosted or wreck it in the rain. It even resists HP Rock!However, it won't provide as big as an issue as say Terrakion in the Sand (rock types get a 1.5 sp. def boost).

That might be true, however Drizzle Volcarona is going to smash though Keldeo regardless with that powerful Hurricane. Its a good check to Volcarona for sure, although personally I wouldn't like to risk my Keldeo taking damage from a +1 Bug Buzz, when I could check it with something else. Keldeo is prolly going to be the star of rain teams so I wouldn't want to carelessly weaken it.

 

[shrang]

Keldeo is actually a poor check to Volcarona unless it's in neutral weather (sand, hail, or none). Rain Volcarona can just Hurricane Keldeo to oblivion, while in the sun, it can just demolish super pony with sun boosted Fire attacks, while Quiver Dance and sun severely weakens Surf/Hydro Pump.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Rest in peace Sun teams. <3 Modest life orbed in Sun Fire blast from Volkie wrecks that cross gendered pony anyday, hell even in Rain.

 

[Quilph]

I have a small observation which isn't all that groundbreaking but is puzzling nonetheless. Why is everyone assuming Hidden Power Ghost, when Hidden Power Dark is just as powerful and hits the same things for super effective damage? Further, using Dark means you don't need to run one fewer IV for the Defense and Special Defense stats. I understand that the difference is truly negligible, but why settle for a reduction in stats if you don't need to? Off the top of my head, the only added coverage Hidden Power Ghost affords is something to hit Toxicroak neutrally with. Sure that isn't the reason everyone is opting for Ghost?