Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Jetx]

I think we've heard enough about bulky waters by now. They counter just about all the sets without Thunderbolt (but only by Toxistalling or stat-upping), but the mixed set will probably be quite common so perhaps not great switch-ins.

Hippowdon might be able to switch in on just about any move other than Sacred Fire, but if running Stone Edge a Rooster would beat it so it could only SR / Roar or Toxic to cause it a lot of trouble. Pretty much stating the obvious, but yeah.
Max attack, positive nature (probably Lonely if it ran that) and Life Orb Ho-oh does 36.19% - 42.62% to standard Hippowdon. Leftovers could protect it from a 2HKO after burn.
Back versus Lonely Ho-oh, Burned standard Hippowdon does 55.24% - 64.87%. Stone Edge Hippowdon could actually be a very dodgy way to deal with SF / EQ / Thunderbolt / Roost Ho-oh. If it uses Roost, Thunderbolt or Earthquake Hippowdon could come in and OHKO it, and if it started trying to stall with Roost [which already has the aforementioned flaw of a full HP Ho-oh getting hit hard by it, though that wouldn't be a problem on LO Ho-oh thanks to ss] Earthquake hits it for a lot. Not a particularly reliable counter, but it is another thing that could still work to some extent.

@TVboyCanti, the first half of your post is more or less "Guess what, bulky waters don't like Thunderbolt!", but you've convinced me that Porygon2 and Ludicolo aren't counters to sets like that. Tyranitar shouldn't be discredited as a counter just because it takes a lot from Earthquake, as Sacred Fire and EQ are the only two moves Ho-oh has that Tyranitar can't switch in on and deliver an OHKO back. An Umbreon with some Defence EVs can still work imo, though Burn is dangerous.
Also, you do mean that the three pokémon you listed as solid counters are the only ones out of the group you listed, right? I somehow can't see Cresselia taking much, for example. 18.92% - 22.30% from Life Orb Lonely Sacred Fire on 252 HP / 108 Def standard Resttalker. 20 HP / 252 Def standard set takes19.43% - 23.06% from SF and can even carry Reflect to make that nothing, and it can cripple with paralysis, toxic poison or possibly even spam Charge Beam and hope it wins in the long run, when SF is out of its 8PP.

Anyway, I know people are eager to get the Latis (even though SpecsLatios Draco Meteor makes everything shudder) tested after Skymin and Deoxys are done, but after that I don't think it would be hard to fit Ho-oh in. Unless Manaphy and Darkrai (guessing this is going off anyway) are considered less centralising, which I would have to disagree with.

 

[sbc]

Burned Hippowdon is essentially useless, for example it can't counter Tyranitar anymore since it can't actually hurt anything and has 12% residual damage per turn.

 

[Mr.E]

Let us note that, while using Roost does open Ho-oh to a SE Earthquake, it still works to Ho-oh's advantage somewhat. Where Stone Edge could otherwise be massive-damage-if-not-instant-kill, it becomes a mind game with Roost -- sometimes the Ho-oh user will just attack for free while you waste time Earthquaking a Flyer. What happens at worst, Ho-oh dies to Stone Edge? Whoop-de-doo, he would've been dying to that anyway if not for Roost. It's really no better than the whole "a bigger movepool is a disadvantage!" point brought up and it's a quite valid argument in favor of Ho-oh considering the ease at which Stone Edge can be ran out of PP (let alone its dubious accuracy). Look at standard RestTalk Machamp for a good example of what low PP can do to you; he's definitely thanking Rotom-appliances for replacing a lot of the Dusknoir/Spiritomb out there.

...Toxic puts Spin-blocking Ghost in their place pretty well, basically forcing Rest on them for pure Spin-blocking ability. It's not that hard to force Rapid Spin if you really need it.

Leppa Berry Ho-oh is uber. And the cool thing about Ho-oh being such a potentially massive threat that everyone has to over-prepare for? You don't need Ho-oh to take advantage of the over-preparation everyone would be doing to handle the Ho-oh not on your team. ITT we learn2metagame.

Anyway, snippets from other posts I feel like responding to, not necessarily directly related to the uber-or-not argument since that'd stupid anyway (everyone knows SR is the only reason Ho-oh even needs a passing thought). Incoming tl;dr:

...the difference in thinking between an average battler and the better battler (or if you prefer; the difference between the "how do I avoid losing" and the "how do I win" mentalities).

Considering the general slowness of the teams I build and my penchant for making sure my weaknesses are covered, I feel like I fall into the "avoid losing" playstyle because I'm a great player. I know that, over time, I'm going to make fewer mistakes and make better (and more bold) predictions than my opponents. My terrible luck throws a kink into this plan more than its fair share but a longer match usually favors me as my opponent's mistakes rack up faster and more costly than my own.

I don't think you meant to say that much with your little statement there, though. :P Just ragging on you.

Practically no Close Combat users fear those Defence drops anyway, as they wouldn't take a hit with or without them.

An asinine assumption. Infernape doesn't exactly look to tank sweepers or anything, but defense drops hurt even him. It makes him more prone to priority attacks (including the Ice Shard he otherwise resists) and weak attacks from wall pokémon. The advantage of its power and accuracy far outweigh the disadvantage but it's not meaningless, to say nothing of the defense drops on the likes of Lucario (with its resists) or something like a Hariyama (respectable defenses).

Besides, Ho-oh could use Fire Blast if it wanted. You'd be stupid to do it but you could. If Ho-oh really needs power, it would use Overheat anyway.

Stall teams would have to change considerably too; I wouldn't be surprised to see Hippowdon fall in usage in favour of the considerably bulkier Rhyperior, as being forced to rely on ReSTalk for healing isn't such a bad thing when you'll be burnt 50% of the time you switch in.

First off, Hippowdon has Sand Stream and replacing it in favor of anything but Tyranitar is a completely gamechanging alteration. Secondly, RestTalk is a severe disadvantage for Rhyperior whose Megahorn ability is quite possibly his biggest advantage over other Grounders.

What move is learned by every OU Pokemon, and cures you of status while recovering health?

Is it the same move that causes you to lose two turns? The one Ho-oh learns too and even utilizes better than most pokémon due to its bulkiness?

Scizor Quick Attack

No.

Ho-oh Aerial Ace

No.

 

[cim]

Just posting to say that 252 HP 252 Defense Guts Hariyama can't take 2 CB Scared Fires like someone said, They forgot to account for the roughly 75% chance that he gets burnt either turn, which makes him lose not because of lowered attack but because of residual damage. Not like counters matter in a debate to test him, but stop saying Hariyama is a counter.

MrE, uh, Scizor Quick Attack is perfectly valid and is great already to hit stuff like Zapdos and Gyarados and Starmie hard.

 

[Mr.E]

Using Quick Attack on Scizor is like using Bullet Punch on Lucario. Sure, it has some minor use (such as killing Gengar) that Extremespeed doesn't have, but it's generally quite inferior and nobody's actually using it. Nobody cares about QA Scizor now.

 

[Jetx]

What? I've seen loads of Quick Attack Scizor recently. Bullet Punch kills Gengar for Lucario, but it won't hurt any of Lucario's main counters. Scizor's Quick Attack, however, can tear over half of Zapdos (probably one of its most common switch-ins) or Ho-oh's health off. SD / BP / QA / Brick Break is quite common and I've used it myself.

Whether you think it's a good set yourself is quite irrelevant, because people do use it.

 

[Darklord]

I think the whole "Ho-oh not being an Uber" argument revolves around stealth rock. If you take out stealth rock then there is no doubt that Ho-oh is an Uber thanks to it's godly 680 BST and good movepool.

I don't think it matters if there are "counters" in OU. Some other ubers have "counters" in the OU tier too.

However, I would like too see Ho-oh tested some time. If it doesn't force people to make drastic changes to their team - thus overcentralizing the metagame - then i would have no problem accepting it in OU.

 

[lilyhollow]

However, I would like too see Ho-oh tested some time. If it doesn't force people to make drastic changes to their team - thus overcentralizing the metagame

Being forced to make drastic changes to a team has nothing to do with whether or not a pokemon is Uber.

 

[Articanus]

i think this deserves a test, at the least. I think it will end up being uber, but maybe I'm just crazy. I see Moltres dieing if this becomes OU though. I used this in ubers with RS support and Toxic/Flamethrower/Sub/Roost. It really was tearing teams apart, so I'm scared as to what it can do in OU.

 

[Farewell]

Could Salamence be a counter? Immunity to Eq, Resistant to Sacred Fire, nuetral to Thunderbolt.

It can also run a Specs set with Hydro Pump, or even HP Rock if it had to, incase you fear Burn... Also it is faster, so even if Ho-oh 2hkos, Salamence can survive the first hit and Hydro Pump it.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Could Salamence be a counter? Immunity to Eq, Resistant to Sacred Fire, nuetral to Thunderbolt.

It can also run a Specs set with Hydro Pump, or even HP Rock if it had to, incase you fear Burn... Also it is faster, so even if Ho-oh 2hkos, Salamence can survive the first hit and Hydro Pump it.

Even a Modest Specs HP Rock wouldn't OHKO Ho-oh.

 

[umbarsc]

Did you take Stealth Rocks into account? It would be foolish not to.

 

[the pugilist]

Did you take Stealth Rocks into account? It would be foolish not to.

Stealth Rock is not up 100% of the time

 

[Slapjax]

Stealth Rock is not up 100% of the time

May as well be. Half the leads would kill themselves just to get rocks up. Although, teams with suicide leads like that don't usually have another stealth rocker. If you just save your spinner until after they kill themselves you could easily remove the rocks.

 

[1059860]

I find the most people today that support SkyMin being OU is not because they don't have a tough time against it. It's because they overuse it themselves...

And now people want this thing down... I just see it as a "new thrill". Watch it. If Deoxys-E doesn't go back up to Ubers, then Deoxys-D will soon be on this list for bringing down to OU too, and followed by Garchomp, with the argument something like Platinum has changed the Metagame a lot and Garchomp can be taken down now to due an increase number of users who can learn Ice Punch. -_-

Getting back on topic, I agree with Darklord. This whole argument revolves around Stealth Rock. Without it, Ho-Oh is Uber for definite, being able to freely switch into any situations of Special Attacks, with its massive Special Defense, and hit back hard or forcing a switch, which gives it a free hit.

However, now with Stealth Rock, things are slightly more difficult. I don't think it's enough to get this Pokemon moved down to OU, since it has a BST of 680 and does not have a nerf (unlike Slaking and Regigigas). This is simply what you do:

1) Make sure the opponent has a Pokemon that wouldn't have Taunt, such as Heatran, and it must be easily able to switch in. (Special attack on Heatran does almost nothing to Ho-Oh, especially with Fire moves that are not very effective.)

2) While opponent switches, you ROOST. Now you have a healthy Ho-Oh. Stealth Rock may be deadly, but a Ho-Oh on field that you can't do anything about is even worse, so you have to switch. With all these ScarfTrans around today, it's quite easy to get a switch. You can also switch on the omnipresent Scizor and won't take much damage due to the 4x resistant of STAB Bug and 2x resistant of both Bullet Punch AND Superpower, with great base HP. There's another handful of things that it can switch in.

3) Now, after your opponent switches: If you see they switch to something like Aerodactyl, then switch out. You got your Ho-Oh healthy anyway. If they have something like Blissey (LOL, Sacred Fire ownage much?) or Cresselia and ready for Status, kill if killable. If not, Safeguard. Without Thunder Wave Paralysis, it's quite easy to deal large amount of damages and ROOST off any damage that it takes.

4) Even if you switched out due to something like Aerodactyl... The next time you need it back, all you need to do is to find an opportunity to switch in again and Roost of any damage that you take from Stealth Rock.

5) STEALTH ROCK CAN EASILY BE SPINNED AWAY.

6) At late game, when their Aerodactyl or such dies, then you got yourself a nice buddy that can easily take out the opponent. By means of their entire team...

7) Charti Berry is available whenever.

8) If Ho-Oh is STARTER, then he can avoid ALL Stealth Rocks until it switches. This would also increase the number of Aerodactyl starts DRASTICALLY!!!

If this thing is moved down to OU, as long as we keep a Spinner on this team (which is not even necessary, just nice to have), it is easily able to wipe out an entire TEAM at late game. Unless people have a team in which ALL 6 members are things that are NOT safe for Ho-Oh to switch in, then I lose my usage of Ho-Oh, but you lose a WHOLE LOT of coverages on your side. This includes a Ghost (Rapid Blocker), no Pokemon like Heatran or Scizor or Foretress. THIS WILL CHANGE THE GAME COMPLETELY! And of course, my Starmie with STAB Surf will be able to take out a lot of your things that would wall Ho-Oh, which includes Rhyperior, Aerodactyl and Thunderbolt can take out Water Types.

This thing: Ho-Oh, obviously overcentralizes the game a 'little' too much!

 

[Kira]

Actually spinning will be much harder now with the new bulky Rotom forms acting as great sin blockers.

 

[1059860]

Like I said, spinning is a TREAT. It's not necessary to have.

 

[MM_Zero]

Actually, I was thinking this very same thought before I clicked on the smogon website right now. A lot of people says Ho-oh sucks in ubers. It really isn't the case at all. Ho-oh is one of those "if you play it right, it kicks-ass, but if you don't it sucks pokemon". In almost all my uber teams I use Ho-oh. I have swept a lot of teams with this fiery pheonix against people who underestimate it. STAB Sacred Fire under sunlight is nothing to play with, and a 50% chance of burn is really, really high if you ask me. In OU, its much easier to fit in a rapid spinner on a team then it is in ubers, and with rapid spinning support, Ho-oh would kick ass.

However, I think it really would be quite interesting to see Ho-oh in OU. It would definitely make a great lead, since it won't have to deal with stealth rock when its first out. It also has a better time dealing with bulky waters, since they have to deal with base 154 sp. def at 100% HP.

Overall, I think Ho-oh is worth testing for OU. It would be really fun to actually see people use sunny day instead of rain dance and sandstorm for once. However, personally, I don't think it should be OU (because I am biased towards Ho-oh since it is one of my favorite pokemon to use in ubers), but I'm not the competitive battling public.

 

[Jetx]

I can't see this thing going to OU... just can't. It wouldn't help the Metagame as it is. At least its a good Skymin counter.

'Fraid not. Calculations about a page back show that if it switches into Seed Flare and gets the -2 drop Air Slash takes off over half its health, and this is the bulkiest 252 HP variant.

Anyway, guy who is a bunch of numbers, look... Your post is the kind of post that can't go unnoticed. But, see, you have brought up so many things that I have already explained the solution to several times in this thread. So I'm only going to talk about the things that haven't been brought up a hundred times already. Actually, I'll go through most of them, because I know nobody can be bothered to read the thread.

And now people want this thing down... I just see it as a "new thrill". Watch it. If Deoxys-E doesn't go back up to Ubers, then Deoxys-D will soon be on this list for bringing down to OU too, and followed by Garchomp, with the argument something like Platinum has changed the Metagame a lot and Garchomp can be taken down now to due an increase number of users who can learn Ice Punch. -_-

Yeah, but this has nothing to do with the pokémon itself. Suddenly opening fire on any new suggestions about controversial tier changes doesn't make any difference to whether or not they're viable. If it really proves to break the metagame, it would simply not go down to OU. I just think I've covered quite a lot of things by now that show it could potentially fit in, and all I'm asking for is a test.

2) While opponent switches, you ROOST. Now you have a healthy Ho-Oh. Stealth Rock may be deadly, but a Ho-Oh on field that you can't do anything about is even worse, so you have to switch. With all these ScarfTrans around today, it's quite easy to get a switch. You can also switch on the omnipresent Scizor and won't take much damage due to the 4x resistant of STAB Bug and 2x resistant of both Bullet Punch AND Superpower, with great base HP. There's another handful of things that it can switch in.

Do you have any idea how many times these points have been covered? Turns are very valuable things, especially in the hyper-offensive metagame we have at the moment. That turn where you roost is a free switch-in. Let's take some example of a pokémon like Lucario, something that is terrified of switching into Ho-oh. If we had one with Stone Edge, it suddenly gets a free oppurtunity to come in and force it back out. Other things, such as Hippowdon, can set up Stealth Rock or Roar on the switch, so switching in a counter can come at price. When Stealth Rock is up, however, Ho-oh is practically forced to use Roost when it comes in, meaning there can often be absolutely not advantage to coming in and you could be giving your opponent the upper hand.

ps. Quick Attack Scizor OHKOs after Stealth Rock as already mentioned. Ho-oh is not a counter. And yes, people do still use Quick Attack.

3) Now, after your opponent switches: If you see they switch to something like Aerodactyl, then switch out. You got your Ho-Oh healthy anyway. If they have something like Blissey (LOL, Sacred Fire ownage much?) or Cresselia and ready for Status, kill if killable. If not, Safeguard. Without Thunder Wave Paralysis, it's quite easy to deal large amount of damages and ROOST off any damage that it takes.

So what's this, like every other wall? Generic wall uses Recover as the opponent switches out, and what have they achieved? At least something like Hippowdon, as already said, can do something else as the opponent goes out. Also, your Ho-oh is running both Roost and Safeguard, meaning it's likely to be quite bulky. But in order to easily beat Blissey, it actually has to run attack EVs, so it won't be as good a wallbreaker as you'd think. Also, Cresselia is just about never killable, and Ho-oh has to get out.

5) STEALTH ROCK CAN EASILY BE SPINNED AWAY.

More spend turns? With all that Roosting and Rapid Spinning, your opponent is going to be able to take advantage easily. Stall teams usually run spin-blockers, resttalking spin blockers at that, and offensive teams often have Gengars. These get free switches and can cause serious harm to a Rapid Spinner's team, depending on what they are, and Stealth Rock is left in tact.

6) At late game, when their Aerodactyl or such dies, then you got yourself a nice buddy that can easily take out the opponent. By means of their entire team...

"When their counter dies, your pokémon can sweep a team!" What's new? :/
That's not a very good argument, I'm afraid. And if somebody is depending on an Aerodactyl to do all their Ho-oh-slaying, they probably get what's coming.

7) Charti Berry is available whenever.

Wait? Why would somebody use that? Garchomp got one more chance to hammer a foe with a +2 attack, or use SD again, and Dusknoir got a chance to survive that CBTar's Pursuit. Many Stone Edges can still OHKO even with that, and Ho-oh doesn't get anything from it other than one more turn to use Sacred Fire and have it bounce off some wall. (if you prefer the unbiased scenario, you may well score a burn on some physical attacker and cripple them, but this isn't much of a consequence when you get to take out the opponent's Ho-oh)

8) If Ho-Oh is STARTER, then he can avoid ALL Stealth Rocks until it switches. This would also increase the number of Aerodactyl starts DRASTICALLY!!!

Ho-oh is often classified as a dangerous pokémon because many things find hard to switch into it. However, a one-on-one match up can often turn against Ho-oh, when faster pokémon with Stone Edge, Taunt, Explosion and more can be a serious problem for it. If Aero leads went up, Ho-oh leads would go down, and then Aerodactyl would go back again. This would repeat for a while until people just stopped using Ho-oh as a starter. There's nothing new there.

THIS WILL CHANGE THE GAME COMPLETELY! And of course, my Starmie with STAB Surf will be able to take out a lot of your things that would wall Ho-Oh, which includes Rhyperior, Aerodactyl and Thunderbolt can take out Water Types.

Yeah, but then we can just switch in something that doesn't fear Starmie, this applies to many other pokémon.

 

[lilyhollow]

And now people want this thing down... I just see it as a "new thrill". Watch it. If Deoxys-E doesn't go back up to Ubers, then Deoxys-D will soon be on this list for bringing down to OU too, and followed by Garchomp, with the argument something like Platinum has changed the Metagame a lot and Garchomp can be taken down now to due an increase number of users who can learn Ice Punch. -_-

So? Testing new pokemon is a good thing, we don't want to be needlessly excluding things from the metagame. If that means Deoxys-D is for whatever reason found to be OU, then I see nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[imperfectluck]

Turns are very valuable things indeed, that's why it takes a whole turn to set up Stealth Rock just like it takes a whole turn to spin them away in this "hyper-offensive" metagame you describe.

Gyarados is not a SD Lucario counter because people use Stone Edge. Yes, people do use Stone Edge even though it's not the most common set. See where I'm going with this?

 

[Phoenix_21]

Does anyone think a Sub/Roost set could be useful? You roost to get back to full health after SR damage, they switch in a counter. If its slower and is using Stone Edge (eg. Rhyperior) then one miss of Stone Edge's 80% accuracy pretty much means they'll run out of PP before they can even hit you. Your coverage with Sacred Fire/Sub/Roost/-- wouldn't be great, though.

All that is also assuming you aim all your Stone Edge at Ho-oh. What if someone switches Suicune into a Stone Edge and your Stone-Edger can't handle Suicune? 2 PP down and a free turn to Suicune. It would be interesting to see a Ho-oh Test, because I get the feeling that it wouldn't be as easy to stop as just 'SR, Stone Edge, Ghost'.

 

[Jetx]

Phoenix_21: It applies more to Ho-oh, as Suicune is a great switch into Sacred Fire and can eat up 2 PP easily, same with other Ho-oh. Though there is also the combination of Roar and Stealth Rock, something that can surprise people who switch to, say, Suicune only to have Ho-oh brought back out to take the 50%, and then being forced out again. Not a combination ruined by burn, either, but it won't do much when Ho-oh's all that's left. Anyway, I think the SubRoost set is the most broken set Ho-oh can pull off, so you're not alone there; substitute, sacred fire, roost and whirlwind could be a very good shuffler with toxic spikes. But then most people seem more worried with Sacred Fire / EQ / Bolt / Roost. It would need to be tested to see whether either of them really were that good.

Turns are very valuable things indeed, that's why it takes a whole turn to set up Stealth Rock just like it takes a whole turn to spin them away in this "hyper-offensive" metagame you describe.

The setting up of Stealth Rock is generally more useful in a match than spinning them away is, and easier to pull off. The team with the spinner is probably going to want to be spending a turn of that too, as SR is practically obligatory.

Gyarados is not a SD Lucario counter because people use Stone Edge. Yes, people do use Stone Edge even though it's not the most common set. See where I'm going with this?

Not really. Is there meant to be something wrong with that statement? Quick Attack Scizor is common enough that switching Ho-oh in to counter it could be very dangerous. They might start running it more often if Ho-oh was used a lot to counter.

 

[Mr.E]

Using it with Toxic Spikes would be a terrible plan since that ruins the entire point of Sacred Fire, by far its strongest point. Something with Substitute would almost be necessary so long as SR is relatively much easier to lay down than to remove (though certainly not undoable), offensive sets are too prone to being rendered ineffective by resistant switch-ins.

Even if you can't remove SR, you could give it Wish support. Ho-oh resists both of Jirachi's weaknesses and wouldn't mind a Reflect for Rock attacks either. Of course, Jirachi isn't the only good Wisher.

Phoenix_21: It applies more to Ho-oh, as Suicune is a great switch into Sacred Fire and can eat up 2 PP easily, same with other Ho-oh.

Well shit, why don't we allow Mewtwo in RBY? Mewtwo counters it!

 

[lilyhollow]

Well shit, why don't we allow Mewtwo in RBY? Mewtwo counters it!

the fact remains that spamming Sacred Fire is not a good idea if you suspect your opponent may have Ho-oh. If nothing else it's saying that the "just spam Sacred Fire all day duhhh" strategy is probably flawed. Obviously in terms of a decision between Uber and OU it's not particularly comforting that Ho-oh is being named as a counter to Ho-oh, but I don't really think that that's what Jetx (or anyone) is saying.