Heavy Offense

[Anachronism]

I really recommend that people don't use the HO team in the OP. It is a basic HO team, and not particularly synergistic. It is probably best to make a HO team of your own.

With my team (the Dragon one), I always reflect against lead dragonite, and then bring in ttar to set up on it.

As far as Fighting HO goes, it has serious problems. It wins a fair amount of games, but I still don't like it for pretty much the reasons outlined by Gross66. I feel like I don't really need 4 fighting types. really any 1 of them can take out a team that doesn't resist fighting, so I feel like some type of transition mon would be better. The thing is that I really don't want to lose any of the fighters either. Gallade is great for setting up on special attackers, Lucario is obviously invaluable, Heracross punches through Gliscor, and Infernape is faster than the rest. If I had to choose one it would be either Infernape or Heracross though. I really wish Hera had priority, and Ape just ends up being walled by Latias (beats it with light screen up though :). Metagross comes to mind, as it is fast and can ram a hole into gliscor/rotom h. Gyarados is also rather appealing for similar reasons, but provides different resists. Scizor is a pain for the team, so Gyarados helps with that somewhat too. Another option to explore would be losing heracross in favor of Breloom.

There are so many options for fighting HO...It is mind boggling to me...

 

[blasphemy1]

I really recommend that people don't use the HO team in the OP. It is a basic HO team, and not particularly synergistic. It is probably best to make a HO team of your own.

With my team (the Dragon one), I always reflect against lead dragonite, and then bring in ttar to set up on it.

As far as Fighting HO goes, it has serious problems. It wins a fair amount of games, but I still don't like it for pretty much the reasons outlined by Gross66. I feel like I don't really need 4 fighting types. really any 1 of them can take out a team that doesn't resist fighting, so I feel like some type of transition mon would be better. The thing is that I really don't want to lose any of the fighters either. Gallade is great for setting up on special attackers, Lucario is obviously invaluable, Heracross punches through Gliscor, and Infernape is faster than the rest. If I had to choose one it would be either Infernape or Heracross though. I really wish Hera had priority, and Ape just ends up being walled by Latias (beats it with light screen up though :). Metagross comes to mind, as it is fast and can ram a hole into gliscor/rotom h. Gyarados is also rather appealing for similar reasons, but provides different resists. Scizor is a pain for the team, so Gyarados helps with that somewhat too. Another option to explore would be losing heracross in favor of Breloom.

There are so many options for fighting HO...It is mind boggling to me...

Yeah, it's always most intelligent to set up Reflect first, since Draco Meteor will leave him at -2 SpA(essentially you are at the same position as both screens up, assuming 'Nite stays in). Any somewhat durable sweeper(I love Metagross for this, but he is easily beaten by Rotom-A) can then proceed to set up. CM Suicune, DD Tyranitar, etc, all get easy set up against Lead 'Nite.

 

[MetaGross66]

Exactly. Though, after playing with Flame Orb Heracross I was dazzled. Its CC OHKOed a Jirachi without an SD, and it was at around 81% health which isn't hard to reach with 2 layers of spikes. I might go ahead and center a team around it.

It really is difficult to make a fighting HO team. Machamp might help where heracross is being able to bulk up and dynamic punch actually gives it a chance against many pokemon like Latias with DS backing it up in the case the opponent does land a hit. It's interesting.

 

[mtr]

So I've been testing out Breloom on Hyperoffense, and its not bad, although you NEED Stone Edge to avoid things like Salamence setting up on you. Water/Electric/Ground resistances are useful, and under a Light Screen, you can survive things like a Draco Meteor from a Mixmence and a Heat Wave from a Zapdos and KO with Stone Edge, so bulk isn't too much of an issue. However, definitely save Breloom for the late game, where its effectiveness is maximized. You may also wish to try a 3-attack Breloom, though I haven't tested it.

I recommend using Toxic Orb to replenish health and avoid clocking your sweep, because if you aren't already overloading Fighting-type counters with Lucario/Infernape/Gallade, either you have a bad team matchup, or are too inebriated to properly play.

I'm posting my team below, but I'm thinking of moving away from a Pure Fighter Hyperoffense archetype and incorporating things like Gyarados or Salamence over stuff like Gallade. We need an early-game sweeper, and unfortunately a lot of Fighters, and Scizor, are oriented towards the late-game.

Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
---
Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Stone Edge
---
Infernape (M) @ Fist Plate
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
---
Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 152 HP/252 Atk/16 Def/88 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
---
Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Extremespeed
- Close Combat
- Crunch
---
Gallade (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Shadow Sneak
---

 

[Anachronism]

imo Heracross was really what opened up opposing teams in the early game, and I suppose that Breloom does that to some degree also with Spore. I think that my main problem with the team is that everything is counterable by different things because of their secondary typing/movepool, allowing Infernape to get walled by Latas, Lucario by Gliscor, etc. Gallade tends to get revenge killed immediately by Scizor. Scizor is taken care of by Rotom, etc. The team is easily walled by different members of a stall team.

This is seems like something difficult to fix.

 

[Astrith01]

Slightly off topic but:
Has anyone made a Water HO team yet? Something I would like to see...

 

[Astrith01]

If you're making a Special HO based team, how are you supposed to beat Blissey D:

 

[yond]

If you're making a Special HO based team, how are you supposed to beat Blissey D:

Bring a poke to counter it.

like a mixed sweeper. Mixdra perhaps. waterfall should do a large amount

 

[Anachronism]

Stathakis' first water HO team was Lead Tspiker Venomoth, mix Kingdra (Waterfall, Dragon Pulse, Hydro Pump, Surf or something), Rain Dance Zong, Agility SubPetaya Empoleon, Sub Charge Rotom W, and DD Gyara. It wasn't very good.

Also, special HO is really difficult not only because of blissey, but because of Ttar and Latias too. They both wall/tank special teams are are a general pain for them.

 

[M BLADE]

Jirachi is a need on a special HO team. With Wish, all that Blissey can do Thunder Wave. CM Flash Cannon does a number on Latias and especially Tyranitar. Thunderbolt is the best attack to go with Flash Cannon, but i actually use Thunder to try and paralyze some pokes.

Roserade is also a good addition with Toxic Spikes shortening the life of many pokes(especially Bissey) and strong Leaf Storms.

 

[Lightsabre]

HO has been the only way I have played for some time. I was never patient enough to stall people, and I actualy found HO to be easier then trying to out-guess my opponent. I will say that paralysis is the owrst thing to happen to HO teams, so I sometimes carry a heal bell/aromatherapy pokemon to fix that problem, also in the opposite way, paralysis is one of the biggest things to HELP HO teams. if you can parylyze the opponents faster mons, like mence, then you will have a way easier time of doing things. I find it dificult to counter opposing HO teams, and is usualy comes down to who has the right counter for the job. I haven't tried typing my teams yet, but I do agree that water is becoming one of my favorite types to use(note, this is on wifi)

 

[GoldDraconian]

Blissey is not that big a problem because there are so many Pokemon you want to run anyway (Azelf, Gengar, Infernape, Heatran, etc.) that kill her. Tyranitar is tough because it has a resistance to Explosion, which is the easiest way to kill stuff, and it is actually a threat to you. (The best solution so far as I can tell is to run a lot of Fighting moves and other types that are super effective, with Water being the easiest to slip in. You can fairly naturally build teams that run plenty of attacks of those types anyway, so it doesn't really disrupt you.) Latias similarly is annoying because it's a threat to you, but it also is fast and has good resists. She's tough to handle 100%, but you can still run faster guys with super effective moves like Jolteon as an okay answer.

I haven't tested it but I have been interested in trying Jirachi out on special HO, although it wasn't super exciting on the all-special bulky HO teams I messed around with for a while. It theoretically beats out the things you want it to, but it's also slow and low-powered (by the standards of the team) and vulnerable to getting dragged into CM wars, which are really not what you want. The ground weakness it carries is also a nuisance, since there are a lot of guys the team wants to try that are stuck with that weak.

Roserade is good in theory but has never actually been that good for me in practice. A lot of enemy leads shut her down, but beyond that, you run the real risk of being set up on once they sac something to sleep, as your two-move coverage always leaves gaps for opposing setup mons (HP Fire or Ground + Leaf Storm --> Salamence, HP Ice + Leaf Storm --> Steels, and I don't think there's any way to do better). However, Toxic Spikes do have a great deal of potential for the team, particularly if it's heavy on CMers, so it's worth trying Venomoth, who thanks to Tinted Lens is much harder to set up on, and otherwise is pretty comparable.

As far as water HO goes, I've tried a few variants that are more or less "semi-RD" teams, with mixed success. Rain Dance teams are by nature more or less HO depending on the build, and getting both a *2 speed boost and a power boost off of one turn in pretty efficient. However, in OU it's difficult to build a pure RD team because of the threat of Tyranitar just turning it off and hosing you. Something like Venomoth/Uxie, Bronzong, Kingdra, Kabutops, and two others might be a viable core, since Kingdra still functions solidly without RD up, and Kabutops is likewise still a fine threat thanks to Swords Dance.
Another possibility is to push in a bulkier direction, since the Water type offers you plenty of options.

 

[Zangetsu9876]

As far as water HO goes, I've tried a few variants that are more or less "semi-RD" teams, with mixed success. Rain Dance teams are by nature more or less HO depending on the build, and getting both a *2 speed boost and a power boost off of one turn in pretty efficient. However, in OU it's difficult to build a pure RD team because of the threat of Tyranitar just turning it off and hosing you. Something like Venomoth/Uxie, Bronzong, Kingdra, Kabutops, and two others might be a viable core, since Kingdra still functions solidly without RD up, and Kabutops is likewise still a fine threat thanks to Swords Dance.
Another possibility is to push in a bulkier direction, since the Water type offers you plenty of options.

From my experience, a lot of people don't know how to use T-Tar to effectively counter rain. You need to know when to switch it in and switch it out and need to have a fast scafer or something Vaporeon like otherwise T-tar is just a minor inconvenience

 

[Quaily]

Slightly off topic but:
Has anyone made a Water HO team yet? Something I would like to see...

I made one and got up to about 1400 with it. The rotom/blissey is tough to beat with that many water types since swampert can't really do a lot against blissey.

 

[13blue101]

I ran something along the lines of:

Azelf @ Damp Rock: SR, Explosion, Psychic, RD
Ludi @ LO: SD, Ice Punch, Waterfall, Seed Bomb
Kingdra @ LO: DD, Surf, Outrage, Waterfall
Bronzong @ Damp Rock: LS, Reflect, Explosion, RD
Gyara @ Leftys: Waterfall, SE, Taunt, DD
Scizor @ LO: SD, BP, QA, SP/Bug Bite

Skarm was sort of a problem, so that's why I ran MixDra and Taunt Gyara. Worked fine until I got bored with HO in general and gave up trying to fix its weaknesses.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

I have an offensive team (not neccesarily Heavy Offense, but very offensive nonetheless), that utilizes Roserade as a lead. The main problem with Roserade is Taunt users like Azelf, as well as the numerous Lum Berry Metagross running around that fuck me over. The main problem to my team is Metagross, and steels in general (an ou team weak to Scizor, lol). If anyone wants the team I'll send it to you.

 

[iKitsune]

You know if you use 56def evs on Roserade it survives 2 of Metagross's Bullet Punches.

 

[akarias]

Or if you max out its defense and hp it'll survive any 2 attack metagross uses and get the sleep off. (besides explosion). Pretty useful since you still beat heatran and swampert's still slower.

 

[Zach]

You know if you use 56def evs on Roserade it survives 2 of Metagross's Bullet Punches.

Smart players will Earthquake / Meteor Mash first anyway

Or if you max out its defense and hp it'll survive any 2 attack metagross uses and get the sleep off. (besides explosion). Pretty useful since you still beat heatran and swampert's still slower.

roserade wants speed

 

[M BLADE]

Oh yes

I used a COMPLETE ground HO team, and it was the most sucessuful of all types.

It was:

Hippowdon
CB Swampert
SD Gliscor
Curse Rhyperior
LO Dugtrio
Special Nidoking

I know i don't have any poke to take out water pokes with ease and all, but i like making teams of just one type.

I did many others HO offense teams based on a type. I'm going to put one of them, a bug one:

LO Yanmega lead
SD Heracross
SD Scyther
Scarf Pinsir
RP SD Armaldo
SD Scizor

I know these teams aren't that great, but it's fun to use them. And somewhat effective when played right.


Outside of those mono HO teams, i'm having a decent success with this team(I'm a UU player, so i don't play OU too much mind you)

LO Yanmega
Expert Belt Starmie with Rapid Spin
Scarf Magnezone
Muscle Belt DDNite with Extremespeed, Fire Punch and Dragon Claw
NP Azelf
SD Weavile

Magnezone is included to take Scizor/no U-Turn Jirachi out of the match, giving Weavile an easier time with SD Ice Shard/Low Kick/Night Slash. Weavile good selling points is that it scares off Latias and Rotom-A, who's nearly on every team. Giving you a free SD. And any Salamence trapped on Outrage is taken out of the match, another selling point of Weavile.

 

[I3east]

With Manaphy coming to OU, what effects do you think it will have on HO? Will it make a good sweeper? (Bulky Sub/CM and Offensive CM sound great) Or do you think it will be another wall to find a way to break?

 

[blasphemy1]

With Manaphy coming to OU, what effects do you think it will have on HO? Will it make a good sweeper? (Bulky Sub/CM and Offensive CM sound great) Or do you think it will be another wall to find a way to break?

The Tail Glow/Sub set with DS support seems decent. We'll have to see. Personally, it would completely replace SubCune/Jirachi, simply because it has higher speed/special attack than the former, and STAB Surf in contrast to the latter.

 

[Anachronism]

I think that if I were to use manaphy I would use tail glow + 3 attacks. it can tank a hit reasonably well and surf/ice beam/grass knot gives great coverage that is really only ruined by vaporeon/empoleon to a degree, but they can't really do anything back. I would also be interested in trying a tail glow + rd set that basically attempts to cure status blisseys throw at it and gain a boost while still keeping two attacks. It is quite a good mon for special HO, able to boost quickly and do tons of damage to blissey/ttar. Latias will have to use tbolt to take it out, which leaves it vulnerable to other members of the team. Latias is going to be spread thin now, because it really wants to have Draco/D Pulse/Tbolt/Surf/Grass Knot/hp fire/Recover/CM.

I look forward to using some version of Greek RMT after Manaphy is released. I am also interested in testing mismagius on this team, as well as possibly latias.

Regarding Jirachi on HO, the real problem is that it doesn't have that great of a stab to utilize, which means you are too easily walled. CM and only 100 SpA don't help this either. You are right though that Jirachi has the movepool/etc. to beat the trifecta of special walling these days though. I wonder if CM + 3 attacks is viable...

 

[reyscarface]

Just a little thing, you can try out an old Azelf Spread I made for the Lead DS set. Its 16 HP, 188 Def, 252 Spe, 56 SpDef with Timid. Its perfectly distributed to face other leads though possibly a bit outdated in what beating leads means thanks to new leads like Dragonite and such (I made it over 5 months ago). Its pretty good though, behind Reflect it lets you get everything vs Metagross, a CB TTar using Pursuit has only a 45%~ chance of 2HKOing even with SS up which lets you get everything, Crunch wont OHKO you either, Heatrans FB is a 3HKO behind Screen and im sure theres more but I just dont remember now.

 

[GarcianSmith891]

I’ve been eyeing this thread for awhile to see where it goes, and thanks to fine posters like Rey and Anarchism, it has gotten somewhere.
I am also a former disciple of Stath, so I know my way around HO and have had some success with it.

Whoever suggested Night Slash Gliscor, thanks, I can’t believe I never thought of it before.

Also, a few pages back, I saw some complaints about Encore Infernape. When I first started HO, Sath and I came up with the Infernape set I would use on my first HO team, that was the standard anti lead SR set, but with Fake Out over Close Combat. I could encore anything with focus sash and make them pay dearly for it. Blaze boosted fire blasts do a fuckload to most anything. Against taunters like azelf, you just kill them, and try to set up later, (if they taunt you, they die, if they don’t, they die and you can still set up SR). Again, Aero is a problem, but the one advantage I think Infernape has over Azelf is he is a very capable killer, and if you manage to keep stealth rocks off of the field, he could even be a valuable sweeper later. HE also at least breaks Aero’s sash, so you can just throw in SD Scizor as he taunts and rape him with a BP, leaving you unharmed.

ZMT was asking earlier if there are any alternatives to Agiligross. Well, I think there are. Here me out. For physical HO I’ve been using Empoleon instead. Most people aren’t as uneasy about losing their special wall when they realize you’re just a bunch of physical sweepers anyway, so they’ll use it to try to stop you. When you kill it, and if something hasn’t broken through their physical walls yet, just use SubAgiliEmpoleon. It shares a weakness with Metagross, and it doesn’t mess up the synergy all that bad, and he can just run through teams, allowing Lucario or Scizor to pick people off with their priority. Metagross really lacks power for me, and I only use it now on this bastardized HO team where I use Gliscor to pass stats to it (lawl).

I’ve kicked around the idea of Lum Berry on Ttar, if not just to beat bulky Rotom that come in as I dance. Or Celebi, alternately. Leaves me a spot for another move other than taunt, like EQ. QuakeSliding is niiiice. Though if I don't care for that, and I dont worrk about Magnezone or someother steel for some reason, I'll mix it up and throw on Ice Beam. When I use it, the jig is up, but usually, Gliscor causes my teams more trouble then random steels. I can just sweep them with something else and hit them hard with resisted hits until I die, (Tar is such a monster!).

I’ve also used Scarf Heracross on one of my HO teams on a whim a month or two ago. What a monster, all I can say. Choice Item sure, but if you can make good switches, its cool. Kingdra takes fire hits like a champ. I’ll try out the flame orb variant sometime though, sounds monstrous.

Rather than use bulky sets, just use stuff with natural bulk, like tar, mence and friends.

Jolly Lucario is really not worth it in my expeience. Just use gliscor or something.

Try out Brick Break over Superpower on SD Scizor, in my experience, screens can stop HO cold, so shattering those barriers can get you back in the game.
I had never considered Haban Berry, that’s awesome.
I also do not recommend the team in the OP. In fact, Sprinkles, try to put more thought into your posts in general.

Manaphy should make special HO that much better. Some teams I have use RD Kingdra to just wreck shit anyway, while the rest of the team is not what I’d call a “rain dance team” per se.

Anyway, I’m always looking for good new leads, if you build a team with good enough synergistic resistances, you don’t really need screens that badly, so sometimes I just run that Pinser set mentioned earlier or this antilead SR Kabutops me and a buddy came up with, haha. I think its more important to not lose to the other lead sometimes then it is to get up screens or whatever. I only need stealth rocks, everything after that is just bonuses and helpful.

I’m excited to see where this strategy goes. From what I understand, it’s seen on the ladder allot. But for me and where I play, the game just seems to be getting bulkier and bulkier, so its increasingly difficult for me to make it work. Good luck with your ideas boys, if I have a major breakthrough, I might let you know.