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Has Blissey worked herself out of a job?
- Thread starter GamerFaggot666
- Start date
Sure, a lot of pokemon have ways of beating Blissey, but more often than not, they severely restrict their effectiveness against other pokemon.
i.e. Gengar, who pretty much has to use Explosion (with lots of Atk EVs) or Destiny Bond to beat Blissey without obscene amounts of luck, cant do it without Explosion. If your Gengar explodes on the Blissey that was sent out to counter it, then Blissey has done its job while you are hoping that your sacrifice works.
Even though those things you listed can beat Blissey, how many times are you ever in a one-on-one situation with anything for more than a turn? Every time Blissey gets a free switch into a pokemon that it walls, it heals, spreads paralysis or poison, sets up sr, stosses, etc. It's effectiveness isn't limited by the things it beats down to 0 HP.
Also, did you ever stop to think that Blissey is the REASON why the most used pokemon happen to have ways of beating Blissey? Sure, things like Manectric are cool but Blissey is just so prevalent that it doesn't stand a chance of becoming OU. Using a pokemon that is walled by Blissey is just asking for stall wars (and usually losses).
i.e. Gengar, who pretty much has to use Explosion (with lots of Atk EVs) or Destiny Bond to beat Blissey without obscene amounts of luck, cant do it without Explosion. If your Gengar explodes on the Blissey that was sent out to counter it, then Blissey has done its job while you are hoping that your sacrifice works.
Even though those things you listed can beat Blissey, how many times are you ever in a one-on-one situation with anything for more than a turn? Every time Blissey gets a free switch into a pokemon that it walls, it heals, spreads paralysis or poison, sets up sr, stosses, etc. It's effectiveness isn't limited by the things it beats down to 0 HP.
Also, did you ever stop to think that Blissey is the REASON why the most used pokemon happen to have ways of beating Blissey? Sure, things like Manectric are cool but Blissey is just so prevalent that it doesn't stand a chance of becoming OU. Using a pokemon that is walled by Blissey is just asking for stall wars (and usually losses).
This too.
Blissey is one of the most annoying pokemon to take down, not a lot can actually kill her apart from boosted/ power STAB physical attacks and if you think about switching a Lucario or whatnot in, twave will stop you in your tracks.
Blissey pretty much is the insurance policy against Heatran, Azelf and Porygon Z who are difficult to counter otherwise except for tailored counters.
Blissey pretty much is the insurance policy against Heatran, Azelf and Porygon Z who are difficult to counter otherwise except for tailored counters.
Why is it that people always seem to view Blissey in the extremes? There's always someone who's crying that Blissey is uber, forces too much stall, etc. Then there's people like the original poster who thinks Blissey is the worst pokemon ever and can't for the life of them fathom why it's ever used. People need to wake up and realize that Blissey's actual value lies somewhere in between.
I wouldn't say Blissey has wokred herself out of a job. All the top tier special attackers have been forced to adapt to her exceptional walling ability. Blissey didn't get worse. They got better.
All the top special attackers have to beat Blissey. Some of them cleverly use Substitute or Taunt to get past it. Others have a powerful fighting attack to OHKO it, like Tyranitar, Infernape or Riachu. Some hit so absurdly hard that Blissey is 2HKOd.
BTW, it bothers me that you said Porygon-Z cannot beat Blissey. I made a set in the creative sets thread that does beat it one on one through the use of Substitute. It's a sub-salac set, and it can nasty plot twice without getting Twaved and then easily 2HKO without needing a Life Orb. If you need to, you can sub enough to get a salac boost and clean up late game.
All the top special attackers have to beat Blissey. Some of them cleverly use Substitute or Taunt to get past it. Others have a powerful fighting attack to OHKO it, like Tyranitar, Infernape or Riachu. Some hit so absurdly hard that Blissey is 2HKOd.
BTW, it bothers me that you said Porygon-Z cannot beat Blissey. I made a set in the creative sets thread that does beat it one on one through the use of Substitute. It's a sub-salac set, and it can nasty plot twice without getting Twaved and then easily 2HKO without needing a Life Orb. If you need to, you can sub enough to get a salac boost and clean up late game.
I never said it was bad. I said it was so good most of the OU has transformed itself to defeat Blissey.
I'm still wondering why I don't obi-bliss more often. Obi-bliss is a beast giving wish support and status. Flamethrower and toxic work together perfectly except against heatran. Obibliss can protect against explosion and switch out when hit by metla sound. There are plenty of other great set waiting to be made for blissey with its huge movepool of support and special moves. Its the players that make blissey predictable.
Regice requires 252 HP and 252 Sp. Def EVs to get the same level of Sp. Def that a 0/0 Blissey gets. Aside from Chansey, there is no other pokemon in the game who can ever get the same Sp. Def Tier as a 0/0 Blissey in neutral circumstances. As I've pointed out a few times in the past... Blissey's Sp. Def is simply absurd.
Lets put it this way: there are exactly 20 pokemon who have more than half the special survivability of a max/max Blissey's Sp. Def, two of them being Blissey and Chansey.
Further, because of Blissey's absurd HP, her Physical Defense gets absurd when pumped with 252 Def EVs + Bold. Bold Blissey is at the 120+ Physical Defense Tier, or is 67 SkarmCents... which is a little stronger than 0/0 Tyranitar on the physical defense side.
No, Blissey is NOT a physical wall, and never will be (loz Defense Curl >_>), but the fact that she ties with "bulky" guys like Tyranitar or Salamence after Intimidate shows that she is not a pushover from the physical side.
Movepool is next. hell, lets stop at Stealth Rocks alone. Cresselia, Snorelax, and Regice can't do that period. Throw in Aromatherapy, Wish, Light Screen and Gravity, and you've got a all-purpose Sp. Wall here. Bolt/Beam for coverage, or Seismic toss for reliable consistent damage.
Gengar uses Destiny Bond.
Blissey used T-Wave
Say what?
Hypnosis + Focus Blast == 3-hit KO with Life Orb, 4-hit KO without LO (don't forget leftovers). That means you have to hit with Hypnosis on the first turn (else you get T-Waved and Gengar simply loses). Assuming you have a Life Orb... there is a 24% chance you hit with Hypnosis and the 3 Focus Blasts required to KO. There is a 16% chance you actually hit with 4 Focus Blasts + Hypnosis.
Explosion is a tie at best, a Protect from Obi-Bliss at worst.
Timid Cresselia +6 Psychic deals 44.26% - 52.10% to Bold Blissey, which is a solid 3-hit KO with Leftovers.
Specs Alakazam deals 44.12% - 51.96% to Bold Blissey with Focus Blast. 3-hit KO while Blissey T-Waves and recovers.
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Anyway, most of your first post assumes Blissey is alone... while you have comments like "Just Baton Pass out" (with Ambipom)... I won't respond to the rest but it is pretty clear that you need to deal with Bliss else your team will be stalled out.
Shuckle is actually an amazing special wall IMO. If you give it almost maxed special defense, you can reach 900+ special defense in SS, and 500 defense. The 244 HP sucks, but considering it takes 16% maximum from Gengars attacks, you know you've got a real beast of a wall. It also gets Encore, to stop set-ups and also packs Knock Off or Body Slam. I can't really think of anything except Starmie that likes to switch into Shuckle.
With blisseys movepool, it could transform itself to take on a good amoun of its new counters.
I don't get why no one even considers Secret Power on Shuckle. Slightly weaker then Body Slam (not that it matters) and it is compatable with all breeding sets.
Yawn, I read the whole thing.
As others of said, Thunder Wave cripples most of the pokemon. All the LOL's can't switch in, as Thunder Wave pretty much renders them useless for the rest of the battle. And also you listed options that nobody uses on a few of them such as Fake Out - Last Resort Ambipom >_>...
As others of said, Thunder Wave cripples most of the pokemon. All the LOL's can't switch in, as Thunder Wave pretty much renders them useless for the rest of the battle. And also you listed options that nobody uses on a few of them such as Fake Out - Last Resort Ambipom >_>...
this
As I learned the hard way (on this precise point on #smogon), so as not to offend those users who dislike being disagreed with, you should phrase your point: "I find that teams I create without Blissey are more successful than teams I create with Blissey". People some how don't figure that, that is exactly what you mean when you say:
I think a large number of the users who are disagreeing with you here wouldn't have posted if you had phrased this "correctly".
...what else could you be speaking from other than your own personal experiences? I'm not sure.
I think a large number of the users who are disagreeing with you here wouldn't have posted if you had phrased this "correctly".
Blissey vs. Gengar. Gengar is out, Blissey switches in. Let's say for sake of argument she switches into Shadow Ball.
xxx switches in Blissey.
Gengar uses <generic special attack>, which deals negligible damage.
Gengar uses Focus Blast. It's supereffective, but Blissey is still standing.
Blissey uses Thunder Wave. Gengar is paralysed.
Blissey uses Softboiled, Blissey is now at around 75% health? Something like that.
In this situation, the very best thing Gengar has vs Blissey is Focus Blast, which now has roughly a 52% chance of hitting Blissey and even when it does, it's not going to do enough damage to threaten it. That's slightly worse odds than using Sing. Blissey wins unless for some stupid reason you're switching Blissey into Choice Specced Focus Blast.
Blissey has weaknesses, but special walling isn't one of them. It can't switch into every attack with impunity - that would be broken. But it does a damn fine job of walling non super-effective special attacks and can even manage those that are, which sounds like a good pokemon to me.
xxx switches in Blissey.
Gengar uses <generic special attack>, which deals negligible damage.
Gengar uses Focus Blast. It's supereffective, but Blissey is still standing.
Blissey uses Thunder Wave. Gengar is paralysed.
Blissey uses Softboiled, Blissey is now at around 75% health? Something like that.
In this situation, the very best thing Gengar has vs Blissey is Focus Blast, which now has roughly a 52% chance of hitting Blissey and even when it does, it's not going to do enough damage to threaten it. That's slightly worse odds than using Sing. Blissey wins unless for some stupid reason you're switching Blissey into Choice Specced Focus Blast.
Blissey has weaknesses, but special walling isn't one of them. It can't switch into every attack with impunity - that would be broken. But it does a damn fine job of walling non super-effective special attacks and can even manage those that are, which sounds like a good pokemon to me.
lol husk, nobody "likes" being disagreed with and besides i wouldn't go so far as to put words in this guy's mouth when he's attempted to prove that most OU pokemon are "better than" blissey therefore it's bad
which doesn't matter because:
which doesn't matter because:
this—lists like this really miss the key point that the most popular pokemon are popular because they likely have a great and reasonable way of dealing with other popular pokemon. it's really that simple when you think about that and the undeniable fact that blissey does indeed do her job without having to be on a given team
In quite a few of those cases, there's about the same risk for the attacking Pokemon that Blissey won't be switched in, whether that means the current 'mon stays out or a different one is swapped in. Theorymon where only one side gets to use prediction is always retarded.
For instance, Gengar pretty much needs to be using Explosion or Focus Blast to take out Blissey. Destiny Bond is both rare and problematic to use in this particular matchup. If Gengar uses Focus Blast but gets outpredicted, he gets wrecked by, say, CB Hera's Pursuit instead of being able to maybe KO Blissey. If he has specs. Maybe.
Explosion is even easier to waste, with D/P's "requirement" of a bulky steel and ghosts not being too uncommon.
And then there's always stuff like threatening Gyara with the presumed T-bolt, but you don't switch to Bliss, Gyara laughs at your Focus Blast and tears through your 'gar and then some.
Blissey can switch in on any Special attacker (well, except the usually-physical Lucario or stuff with Close Combat). The only things that can KO Bold Blissey on the Special side:
Pointing out that Blissey isn't even 2HKO'd by many physical attacks (Thunderbolt Blissey actually can beat Gyarados, for example) and that even a CB Metagross Meteor Mash can't OHKO her, you really can't say that she is bad. Blissey is the ultimate special wall, and absolutely nothing compares to the sheer tanking ability of 255 Base HP / 140 Base Special Defense. That's not even factoring in the Calm 252 Def / 80 SAtk / 176 SDef (a better spread IMO)'s Special tanking ability, which is enough to wall anything.
- Porygon-Z, but the only way he can KO is with a Nasty Plot Hyper Beam, and switching into Nasty Plot is easy plus Hyper Beam gives you a free turn.
- Choice Specs Alakazam / Gengar with Focus Blast, but that's only happening 49% of the time with accuracy in effect.
Pointing out that Blissey isn't even 2HKO'd by many physical attacks (Thunderbolt Blissey actually can beat Gyarados, for example) and that even a CB Metagross Meteor Mash can't OHKO her, you really can't say that she is bad. Blissey is the ultimate special wall, and absolutely nothing compares to the sheer tanking ability of 255 Base HP / 140 Base Special Defense. That's not even factoring in the Calm 252 Def / 80 SAtk / 176 SDef (a better spread IMO)'s Special tanking ability, which is enough to wall anything.
On my list I assumed it was Blissey who switched in every time. Obviously Thunder Wave and Sing gives Blissey a better shot at coming out on top one on one. That wasn't my point.
Its that Blissey has reached a threat level so high that almost literally every pokemon in OU has a was to bring her down.
@ Chris is me
How in the hell is Blissey going to switch into Gyarados? Thunderbolt Blissey and +1DD Gyarados both 2HKO each other. Gyarados might not even take a hit with flinch luck.
Your KO Blissey on the special side is forgetting... a lot.
Specs Lucario? Specs Infernape?
Mismagius only needs to Taunt once and Blissey is neutralized. Blissey won't be getting through CM Jirachi's subs without Fire Blast, so I don't see your point.
Its that Blissey has reached a threat level so high that almost literally every pokemon in OU has a was to bring her down.
@ Chris is me
How in the hell is Blissey going to switch into Gyarados? Thunderbolt Blissey and +1DD Gyarados both 2HKO each other. Gyarados might not even take a hit with flinch luck.
Your KO Blissey on the special side is forgetting... a lot.
Specs Lucario? Specs Infernape?
Mismagius only needs to Taunt once and Blissey is neutralized. Blissey won't be getting through CM Jirachi's subs without Fire Blast, so I don't see your point.
Huzzah! You've figured out STAB Boosted attacks can 2HKO a pokemon weak to them. I applaud you sir. Never would I have believed Specs Fighting types with high-powered fighting moves could take out a Normal pokemon.
You have also assumed that Blissey switches in to major physical threats in OU when that is clearly not the case, and you forget one of Blissey's most valuable traits: She can switch in to Salamence and tell you pretty much immediately what its set is. Any set she walls, she can destroy with Ice Beam. If you switch Blissey in on the biggest physical threats in OU, you're an idiot, plain and simple. This is what they invented Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Slowbro for, to CYA when standard physical threats come calling.
Moreover you have assumed Blissey has no attacks outside of Seismic Toss (and possibly Ice Beam), at least if I read your "Starmie wins in a PP war" idiocy correctly. Some Blissey carry Thunderbolt based on the assumption that Blissey will draw in a Gyarados. Blissey Tbolts while Gyara Taunts, and Gyara prays for flinch or it will be KO'd. I run an Aromatherapy/Softboiled/Tbolt/IBeam set most of the time.
For some reason I doubt this set is legal...
In short, Blissey has not whored herself out of the market. Fact is, most special threats stil can't tough her without resorting to Toxic.
Here's the thing though. When people realize this and stop using Blissey, hardcore special attackers would eventually come back and then Blissey will be needed again.
Ok, let me ask this.
Of all the professional RMTs (Obi's, not including his stall team, Alderon's etc.) and all the archived Warstorys, how many of them have a Blissey in it? If a Blissey is involved, how much damage does it actually do?
Of all the professional RMTs (Obi's, not including his stall team, Alderon's etc.) and all the archived Warstorys, how many of them have a Blissey in it? If a Blissey is involved, how much damage does it actually do?