Handling Deoxys-D

[alexwolf]

@TFC

I get what you say. Deo-D is certainly misused in the ladder, and its full potential can be seen in good tours. BUT this doesn't mean that i haven't faced players that used Deoxyd-D properly, and still i wasn't impressed. As i said already, i used Deoxys-D before on HO teams, and i think i used him right (my favourite set is Mental Herb + SR + Spikes + Taunt + T-Wave), but it never felt overwhelming. Maybe it was against scrubs, who didn't know what they were doing, or more unexperienced players in general, but against good players, he was handled ok by the opponent, and usuallly only got SR up, and maybe even paralyzed a poke before dying.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Mention Choice scarf ditto (Did I mention I love Imposter ditto) as a way to handle deoxys-D as a lead. It can use Deoxys' taunt against it. Or you can predict a switch and set up it's own hazards on it. An excellent way to combat Deoxys-D indeed.

This is actually a pretty shaky counter.

You can taunt first, but Deo-D will most likely be running a Mental Herb (I swear everyone on the ladder is doing this), and then you'll get counter-taunted. Now you've got a taunted ditto, locked into taunt. 1 Free turn for Deo, or maybe 2 if you don't have something else that can handle him.

 

[Bryce]

I agree with alexwolf on his points.If you don't bother hard countering it and accept the perfectly natural event of getting SR up,you'll see that it is not broken.Personally speaking,Deo-D rarely gets more than SR up.It's because I instantly 2HKO it or set up with a faster set up sweeper(Dragonite,Lucario and Breloom are the only slower ones).

I have seen jellicent used as spin blockers.They are usually attacking variants with recover or specs variant.But these jellicents are practicly dead weight because spin blocking is the only thing it does and may be something like checking Scizor and Keldeo.Even when used with spin blockers,spinning away these hazards are not too difficult.A lot of spinners carry moves that can hurt Genger(Jellicent is overall bad on HO)a lot.Starmie is a very good answer to Deo-D since it can easily get past Genger and spin away hazards.It's base 115 speed means that it can outspeed and spin hazards away against a lot of offensive threats before dying.

 

[chenboy3]

My favorite Deo-D set is:

Deoxys-D @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
252 HP, 252 Spd, 4 Def
-Trick
-Thunderwave
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes

trick opposing leads, if opposing deo-d taunt just switch out, come in later, if you really need to you can twave opposing ebelt genesect off the bat at the cost for some hazards (just check if your pressure activates first, then download)
you can also start off some early wallbreaking if they have ttar and youhave terrakion/justified lucario in the wings

it also stops the opposing tricker method to stop deo-d, and really just messes people up for ho teams

also screws over forretress/tentacruel switchins, as if they lock themselves into rapid spin/spikes/toxic spikes/stealth rocks thats a free turn for the likes of haxorus, dnite, terrakion, etc.


Best stop? Starmie (doesn't mind that scarf much), and can shrug off a twave thanks to natural cure. However, the scarf can be anoying for people.

This definitely surprises most people, and beats mental herb deo-d easily.

 

[KurashiDragon]

My favorite Deo-D set is:

Deoxys-D @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
252 HP, 252 Spd, 4 Def
-Trick
-Thunderwave
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes

trick opposing leads, if opposing deo-d taunt just switch out, come in later, if you really need to you can twave opposing ebelt genesect off the bat at the cost for some hazards (just check if your pressure activates first, then download)
you can also start off some early wallbreaking if they have ttar and youhave terrakion/justified lucario in the wings

it also stops the opposing tricker method to stop deo-d, and really just messes people up for ho teams

also screws over forretress/tentacruel switchins, as if they lock themselves into rapid spin/spikes/toxic spikes/stealth rocks thats a free turn for the likes of haxorus, dnite, terrakion, etc.


Best stop? Starmie (doesn't mind that scarf much), and can shrug off a twave thanks to natural cure. However, the scarf can be anoying for people.

This definitely surprises most people, and beats mental herb deo-d easily.

best stop for this set is Espeon. It can pretty much shrug off everything you do and doesn't care if you trick it a scarf.

 

[chenboy3]

best stop for this set is Espeon. It can pretty much shrug off everything you do and doesn't care if you trick it a scarf.

Actually trick does cripple espeon, especially if it happens to be a dual screen/cm variant (pursuit bait in particular, also psychic is a weak attack to be locked into)

 

[TheJFluff]

wouldn't breloom destroy deoxys... D?

 

[dragonuser]

I don't really see how. Deoxys-D is faster and can Taunt the Spore. Breloom's best bet of taking down Deoxys-D is to hit it hard with LO Bullet Seeds, and hope it can get a high roll/count. However this is pretty much the same role that most other slow but strong sweepers fill, and I don't really see what differentiates Breloom from them. Breloom still lets Deoxys-D do its purpose to an extent, which is getting some form of hazards up. Also Breloom automatically loses to offensive Deoxys-D as Psycho Boost will do a lot.

 

[Sacaen]

I used to just taunt it right off the bat with my Dual Screen Azelf lead, but getting that magic coated about 50% of the time was still too much as that would typically let it set up 2-3 layers of hazards. And if they don't magic coat Azelf's taunt then Deoxys D is screwed.

So now I have started using Reflect or Light Screen on turn 1 while they use either Magic Coat (wasted turn for them) or Stealth Rock. Then on turn 2 I use taunt while they expect me to use my second screen and won't use magic coat.

I don't have a spinner on my team (which also has dragonite) so it sucks getting stuck with Stealth Rock, but it is much better than getting my taunt magic coat'd and not getting to set up anything at all while they get 2-3 hazards set up.

Turn 2 taunt has been working out quite well.

 

[Celever]

I for one, OHKO or 2HKO it with my Scizor.
Scizor@life orb
Ability: Technician
Bug bite
Pursuit
Aerial ace
Bullet punch

Usually I use pursuit first, since generally the opponent tries to switch to a heatran or whatever, if he doesn't switch, then he'll think I'm going to use pursuit again, so he keeps Deoxys-D in and I use bug bite instead, immediately getting rid of it.

 

[Somebody Anonymous]

Deoxys-Defense @ Red Card
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Recycle
- Cosmic Power
- Recover

Screw all Hyper offense teams! Yes, including the Scizor above.

 

[Curtains]

Yes, I mean it earnestly. If you gave me a button, and hitting the button would forever ban Deoxys-D from BW OU, I would come down that button with a closed fist. Guaranteed hazards is too broken.

And yes, at least one layer of hazards is guaranteed if your set is completely dedicated to it. As TFC notes, the only really efficient way of stopping Deoxys-D is Magic Bounce. However, that limits your options to Espeon and Xatu. Espeon sucks outside of Baton Pass, and Xatu isn't much better, not to mention it can get OHKO'd by an Electric Gem Thunderbolt from Deo-D (yes that set exists, it's on-site iirc). Faster Taunt doesn't beat it, Deo-D can either run Magic Coat to reflect the Taunt back, or, in my opinion, the better option of Mental Herb, which blocks Taunt one time and lets Deoxys-D Taunt the original Taunt user, meaning they have to switch out and back in again while Deo-D gets up two layers of hazards. Pretty sure East was using that set in WCoP, seeing as they reached finals I'm going to assume it worked out well for them. You can't even OHKO Deoxys-D. Seriously, it's impossible bar a crit, assuming Deo-D has its EVs in the right place. Band Genesect doesn't OHKO if it has 4 EVs in Def, and vice versa for Bug Buzz Genesect. Band Scizor is too slow, ScarfTar doesn't even come close to an OHKO and BandTar is, again, too slow for the OHKO. Even the highest roll from a Specs Latios' Draco Meteor won't beat this monster.

Ban-worthy? Hmm, I wonder.

In a metagame where you can have infinite weather I don't think Deoxys-D comes even close to broken. All you have to do is have a rapid spinner and Deoxys-D is basically a waste of a pokemon. There are better spikes and stealth rock users like ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has more resistances, leech seed, thunder wave, and just about the same defense + or - a few dozen points. As long as you hit it hard from the get go you can 2hko it and move on. Ferrothorn is just as hard to KO because of its typing. Most teams carry either jellecent or gliscor to counter your attacks. Just because you cant OHKO a pokemon doesn't mean its broken. Also there are plenty of good spinners.

 

[MMII]

As Alexwolf has mentioned multiple times, Deoxys-D is only a threat if it can set up SR and a layer of Spikes. Outspeeding and 2HKOing or being slower but OHKOing should be considered as stopping Deo D as many things can guarantee SR (and if that is too much too handle it's not Deoxys that needs to be banned). Just about any team worth playing can do one of these two things so I wouldn't call him broken.

 

[Orb]

The Bulky Spiker set is my all time favorite for Deoxys-D. I don't have much experience in terms of battling Deoxys-D considering I've never battled someone who has used one, but this threads helps out a lot. Right now, I'm running an offensive sun team, and my best bet against Deoxys-D would be my Chansey. Personally, I have a Deoxys-D set of my own that's capable of setting up entry hazards, casting Taunt, etc. However, I chose Forretress on my team instead. Rapid Spin FTW!

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
Name: Bulky Spiker
- Spikes
- Recover
- Taunt
- Night Shade

 

[MMII]

That set made me think of something, why use Fast Spiker Deo D anymore? Nowadays the only things hanging around the 90 base speed are weather starters and other Deo D. I would rather just add a Magic Coat instead of risking the speed tie and invest the majority of the speed EVs in bulk to avoid 2HKOs. Unless, of course, there is something I'm completely forgetting about that warrants the speed EVs.

 

[Thorhammer]

"Around 90 base Spd" is kind of large when you take into account how much of a difference investment makes. 0 Spd Deoxys-D is outsped by 252 Spd Tyranitar, while, 252+ Spd Deoxys-D outspeeds 0 Spd Jolteon - in whatever imaginary scenario where you'd run into that. So there's a lot that might change without that investment.

 

[alexwolf]

Melee Mewtwo actually raises a very valid point. tbh if i were to use Deo-D right now, i would use enough Speed evs to outspeed Adamant CB Kyurem-B, which could otherwise 2HKO Deo-D with Outrage. Anything else between 306 and 290 Speed is handled the same way as if you used max Speed, even if you get outsped.

Let's see what i mean in details:

Neutral base 100s that sit at 299 Speed

Only Modest Volcarona belongs in this group, which can be taken care of by Thunder-Wave.

Positive base 86s that sit at 298 Speed

Only Timid Rotom-W belongs to this group, which is always Scarf so no difference here.

Neutral base 98s that sit at 296 Speed

Only Modest Hydreigon belongs to this group, which is rare as fuck, as it is outclassed by LO Hydreigon, so it doesn't really matter.

Neutral base 97s that sit at 295 Speed

Only Adamant Haxorus belongs to this groupd, which is rare as fuck, as it is outclassed by CB Kyurem-B.

And that's it. You could further drop the speed to 285, which allows you to outspeed Jolly Mamo, which could otherwise 2HKO with EQ, if Adamant Kyurem-B is of no concern. I don't know where those evs would be better spend on, but i am pretty sure tha 64 evs are going to have some use, and i would rather use them, than outspeed some irrelevant mons.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

I can't say for sure if Deoxys-D is broken, but it is bar none the best spiker I have ever used. It can taunt slower spikers, Magic Coat faster taunts/hazards, one can use red card, taunt and/or ThunderWave for setup sweepers...the list goes on and on.

The only problem I see is that it becomes setup bait once red card has been used, IF it doesnt carry Thunder WAve.

 

[alkinesthetase]

i remember yesterday on IRC aldaron was telling us about his double dance (agility/NP) thundurus-T that he used to set up on deoxys. thanks to volt absorb you're immune to twave 8D open up with whichever boost threatens your opponent's team less, to convince them to stay in, then pop the other one and end games. probably one of the better setup sweeper options i have heard of for threatening a deoxys-D team, mainly cause the twave immunity prevents deoxys from neutering you by surprise.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

I typically use Genesect U-Turn to Starmie. Most Spinblockers are scared of switching in to it. Also from what I've seen most Deoxys-D teams don't even have Ghosts in their team so you are free to Spin all day long.

If the Deoxys-D has something like Rocky Helmet then with Starmie just weaken it to the point where you can KO it with lolRapid Spin.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

I run SleepTalk Dusclops with Deoxys-D. It has generated many LOLs from people trying to spin their hazards away.

 

[Keldeo333]

Hitmontop is a pretty reliable spinner since he can use foresight to troll ghost types.
Donphan a common spinner can use odor sleuth to reliably spin against ghost types.

 

[Schpoonman]

Foresight Hitmontop might work in UU, but Gengar and Jellicent don't give the free turns that Foresight'd Ghosts in UU do. Gengar can set-up Subs in your face and proceed to run train and Jellicent can status Hitmontop, crippling him and potentially preventing you from spinning in the future.

I don't think Donphan has any room to fit Odor Sleuth, as you're dropping either Rocks, Rapid Spin, EQ, or Ice Shard.

 

[Bent1ey]

Hitmontop isn't even that hot in UU anyways. I suppose Donphan could always let someone else to set Rocks or drop Ice Shard, he kind of shut downs Deoxys-D with his ability to Rapid Spin and its Thunderwave inmunity, but Odor Sleuth isn't exactly a safe answer to spinblocking anyways, since people can set up on you, and odds are, Deoxys-D will just comeback and set up hazards again.

 

[doughboy]

As nice as some of the Deo-D lead sets are that some of you guys posted, I would ask you to keep in mind that this thread about posting methods of stopping Deoxys-D set up, not about Deoxys-D in general.

Anyway, I wouldn't consider using a slower Choice Band/Choice Specs user necessarily "beating" Deoxys-D. Deoxys-D "only" gets to set up SR, but by being locked into one move, a sweeper can much more easily set up on you. This is really a position the Deoxys-D user wants to achieve (albeit they would prefer it with one layer of Spikes) since it has SR to weaken most targets sufficiently. If your faster at least you allow your next switch (and all upcoming switchin's) to take on the target at full health.

And again, what is so broken about a guaranteed SR, if it means your opponent losing a poke?

What really makes Deoxys-D different from other leads for offensive teams who can consistently set SR up, like Aerodactyl, is that its sheer versatility makes sure once you send out your stop at turn 1, you can't be assured that it won't be the variant that will screw you over real badly. Anyway here are two other sets that I found can handle Deoxys-D nicely.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Taunt

Of OU CCAT fame, SubPass Gliscor can take advantage of Deoxys-D leads to create a Substitute for other team mates to utilize as a buffer against the offensive teams attacks. However you sacrifice bulk in order to set up on Deoxys-D. However, if the opponent fails to send out Deoxys-D, you can use Baton Pass to get a better matchup just like U-turn. It is pretty rare for Gliscor to run a faster Taunt than Deoxys-D, so it will surely catch a few opponents off guard.

Durant @ Life Orb
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Durant is one of the few Pokemon who has a very good chance of OHKO'ing Deoxys-D without locking itself into a choice move. While Durant is very powerful, it is unfortunately hindered by Hustle's annoying 80% accuracy penalty. In addition, Durant faces stiff competition for an offensive Bug/Steel type from Genesect and Scizor.