You always want a +speed nature. It's Speed is more attractive than its SpA, as its so frail it never wants to be hit even to resisted attacks.
So Timid if you going 4 SpA attacks, or Naive / Hasty if you want U-Turn.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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So Timid if you going 4 SpA attacks, or Naive / Hasty if you want U-Turn.
Hydro Pump is still a better option than Surf or Scald, since Water does offer great neutral coverage and Hydro Pump is still quite powerful. As Hidious said, Greninja is frail and should be aiming to KO and clean up, not just sit around and spam a relatively weak move like Scald. Greninja's offensive stats aren't even that impressive to begin with, so it needs strong moves to dish off as much damage as possible.
It's important to consider that Hydro Pump has imperfect accuracy. Factor that in, and it effectively has 88 base power; less than Surf, which we've already discussed is inferior to Scald.
Not that the choice between them is cut and dry. It's the argument of reliability versus power. Just remember that if you've ever been frustrated by Surf/Scald not doing enough damage, you'll be really frustrated when Hydro Pump does nothing 20% of the time.
The thing is, this has already been discussed, and Hydro Pump nabs a few important KOs that Surf and Scald do not. If you want, you can look back a few pages and see the calculations for yourself. Hydro Pump turns 3HKOs into 2HKOs, and 2HKOs into OHKOs. I think that wins you more games than the imperfect accuracy loses you.
Want to try out this set:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Surf
- Extrasensory
- Hidden Power Fire
Can anyone tell me if my EV Spread will work? If not, feel free to suggest a better spread. The IV spread for it is 31/31/30/30/31/30. Shadow Sneak's main purpose is for priority spin blocking, and to avoid taking a Mach Punch from Breloom or Conkeldurr and hopefully finishing them off with Extrasensory. HP Fire is for annoying things like Ferrothorn, Gourgeist etc.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Surf
- Extrasensory
- Hidden Power Fire
Can anyone tell me if my EV Spread will work? If not, feel free to suggest a better spread. The IV spread for it is 31/31/30/30/31/30. Shadow Sneak's main purpose is for priority spin blocking, and to avoid taking a Mach Punch from Breloom or Conkeldurr and hopefully finishing them off with Extrasensory. HP Fire is for annoying things like Ferrothorn, Gourgeist etc.
Read the thread, please.
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 276-328 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 283-338 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 156-187 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The only one I'm seeing is on AV Tyranitar. Which important 2HKO's and OHKO's am I missing?
I disagree. If Greninja is going to spam a move, it's going to be Dark Pulse, which has better neutral coverage, or Scald for the burn chance.
I was trying that moveset with Greninja:
Greninja @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
It's the usual but HP Fight adds
surprisingly good coverage here. The only downside is the required 30 IV in Speed, which makes me think whether a Scarf is viable here.
Thoughts?
Greninja @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
It's the usual but HP Fight adds
surprisingly good coverage here. The only downside is the required 30 IV in Speed, which makes me think whether a Scarf is viable here.
Thoughts?
You can't just be like "Oh Hydro Pump and Surf are the same on stuff weak to Water!" The thing is, Hydro Pump does more damage on target neutral to Water as well. I feel like there pretty much isn't anything to discuss, we're just repeathing ourselves and arguing about the same things over and over again. Also,
what the hell?
Please don't use a Choice Scarf. Locking Greninja into one move takes away the point of Protean and Greninja's great coverage.
Dark Pulse is one of Greninja's weakest moves, you shouldn't be spamming that. Greninja should not be spamming Scald either because it's also one of its weakest moves. You really need to make every hit count when using a frail pokemon and that's why Hydro Pump is what Greninja needs. The idea with life orb attackers is to use its most powerful move every turn if possible and using coverage only when it would hit harder than that move.
Stop bashing Scarf Greninja. It's an amazing revenge killer, since it kills most boosted stuff as well. Just don't fight any +2 Gyarados or Dragonite and it's really, really good. It's also a nice scout with U-Turn. And no one expects the Scarf.
It doesn't take away the point of Protean if you can still use it to revenge a +1 Dragonite. Or a +2 Cloyster.
I said that because I was genuinely curious. What 2HKO's and 3HKO's am I missing? Because I was there for that discussion your referencing, and Surf>Hydro Pump was the conclusion I thought was came to.
Also, Hydro Pump has 110 BP, but is only 80% accurate. 110 x 0.80 = 88, which is how much base power Hydro Pump has on average.
edit: Also, the reason I only did calc's on those Pokemon is because they're the only ones that I can imagine Greninja needing to exlusively rely on it's Water-STAB to deal with. Greninja has such great coverage that it'll be spamming Water-type moves less often than you think when one of his other options is so commonly super-effective.
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80 base power is far from weak. In addition, Ice Beam, Surf, and Hydro Pump are the ONLY other moves that are over 80 BP.
I don't think you want to ever spam Dark Pulse. Hydro Pump and Ice Beam are the moves you want to be clicking. Dark Pulse is good for stuff like Aegislash, but I've seen successful Greninjas without Dark Pulse. But then again, it's not like Greninja gets that many options.
IMO, the best set is Hidden Power Fire/Grass Knot/Ice Beam/Hydro Pump. I guess the Scarf set could be a little useful, but it's still nowhere near as good as the Life Orb set.
I'm just saying, Hydro Pump is Greninja's strongest attack outside of a full-power Grass Knot; therefore, it is Greninja's best bet against Pokemon that either resist or are neutral to Greninja's moves.
First of all, the LO set is an all-out attacker, the Scarf set is a revenge killer. They are different sets. Stop trying to compare them.
If it doesn't miss specific KOes, Surf is better than Hydro Pump. However, there is a good chance it does miss certain KOes. I wouldn't really say Hydro Pump is that spammable, really. But it does have power, which is what Greninja wants.
Wasn't saying you should spam it (unless you have Choice Specs/Scarf), but it is only resisted by two types, has a 20% (I think) flinch rate, and has a good 80 BP (120 w/ STAB). It's not a necessary move for Greninja, but it is useful and has great coverage.
The Life Orb set is a revenge-killer too, you know.
Yoooo, guys! Why don't I see any mention of a lead set for this guy?
Greninja@ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Scald/Hydro Pump
- Taunt
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
Spikes are most certainly not dead this gen. You've just got to be more careful with them, is all.
You use this by leading with Greninja and setting up spikes of your choice. Your Taunt is faster than all but the rare Aerodactyl's Defog, and he won't exactly enjoy taking one of your water attacks. If a different Defogger decides to rear its ugly head, Taunt the bloody thing, then U-Turn into something that can handle it better - for example, Tyranitar into Latios. Even if you mispredict, due to the Focus Sash, you live to fight another day. Scald and Hydro Pump are for slightly different purposes; one is for crippling switch-ins with the burn {mostly for passive damage}, whereas the other is for a craptonne of massive damage right off the bat, able to 2HKO Skarmory so it can't even think of Defogging or Brave Birding you, and always OHKOing Excadrill, for example. Of course, given the nature of Protean, you can slap virtually any move on there for something your team has trouble with, as Greninja's hardly weak sauce. Espeon, Xatu, and Latios can't switch in to Dark Pulse, as well as the obvious Starmie, and it's possible [albeit unlikely] to 2HKO Exca with that. I could also see someone forgoing U-Turn and putting both Dark Pulse and [insert water move here] and going Timid, but imo the coolest thing about this set is that it "flows" nicely and can pop into something else seamlessly, and it works nicely for Voltturn, as they like to force switches, to gain ground in a way that is somewhat similar to stall. Your mileage may vary, though.
Greninja@ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Scald/Hydro Pump
- Taunt
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
Spikes are most certainly not dead this gen. You've just got to be more careful with them, is all.
You use this by leading with Greninja and setting up spikes of your choice. Your Taunt is faster than all but the rare Aerodactyl's Defog, and he won't exactly enjoy taking one of your water attacks. If a different Defogger decides to rear its ugly head, Taunt the bloody thing, then U-Turn into something that can handle it better - for example, Tyranitar into Latios. Even if you mispredict, due to the Focus Sash, you live to fight another day. Scald and Hydro Pump are for slightly different purposes; one is for crippling switch-ins with the burn {mostly for passive damage}, whereas the other is for a craptonne of massive damage right off the bat, able to 2HKO Skarmory so it can't even think of Defogging or Brave Birding you, and always OHKOing Excadrill, for example. Of course, given the nature of Protean, you can slap virtually any move on there for something your team has trouble with, as Greninja's hardly weak sauce. Espeon, Xatu, and Latios can't switch in to Dark Pulse, as well as the obvious Starmie, and it's possible [albeit unlikely] to 2HKO Exca with that. I could also see someone forgoing U-Turn and putting both Dark Pulse and [insert water move here] and going Timid, but imo the coolest thing about this set is that it "flows" nicely and can pop into something else seamlessly, and it works nicely for Voltturn, as they like to force switches, to gain ground in a way that is somewhat similar to stall. Your mileage may vary, though.
I never said it was weak I said one of the weakest of Greninja's moves, the only special move Greninja uses that's less powerful is Hidden Power.
No it isn't because anything with a scarf or base speed higher than 122 is going to kill you
a revenge killer is something that you bring in that's going to have an edge on what you send it out on, that's the point of Choice Scarf
Greninja already outspeeds the majority of the OU tier, and there are better Scarfers out there.
Choice Scarfs are becoming increasingly rare, as is boosting sweepers. A Scarf does not predicate a revenge killer, don't use your connotation for the definition. If Greninja can switch in on and then KO a Pokemon threatening to sweep your team then it is a revenge killer. Try and run Dragon Dance Dragonite and expect to get through Talonflame, then tell me whether or not a Scarf makes a revenge killer.
Jolteon, Aerodactyl (Lol), Scarf Rotom Forms, Base 90s after sticky webs, Cloyster, Genesect, Set up sweepers etc.
Stop saying the same thing over and over and Stop with the better scarfers stuff, this isn't Nintendo WFC, you can use more than one scarf (and it's not like people really use scarf mons that much anyway)
Take your "removes the whole purpose of protean" logic somewhere else, there's more than one use for a choice scarf on Greninja, and that makes it a viable option.
Edit: yes lets prove a point with talon flame /s
Stop saying the same thing over and over and Stop with the better scarfers stuff, this isn't Nintendo WFC, you can use more than one scarf (and it's not like people really use scarf mons that much anyway)
Take your "removes the whole purpose of protean" logic somewhere else, there's more than one use for a choice scarf on Greninja, and that makes it a viable option.
Edit: yes lets prove a point with talon flame /s
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