Pokémon Greninja

[Kendama]

Greninja@Life Orb
Trait: Protean
EVS: 252 Spe/ 252 Spa/ 4 Hp
Nature: Hasty/Timid
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Dark Pulse
-U-turn/Hidden Power [Grass]/ Hidden Power [Fire]
-Ice Beam
I disagree with all of you about the 168 Spa issue. Once again, Greninja's purpose is to hit fast and hard. You are taking away that role from Greninja. Anyway, what are you going to put the remaining 188 EV's in after you maxed out speed and put in 168 Spa? Anyways, Ice Beam, as stated by S0L1D G0LD, does not OHKO 100% of the time, thus cutting its rampage and use much shorter than it may potentially be, overall, you are wasting the ninja's great potential with Protean. Did you even factor in STAB while doing calculations, even Multiscale? Why would you even risk getting completely OHKOed by Dragonite? It has 134 base Attack. What are you planning to do if you let it live and OHKO you? Bring in CB Scizor to expose yourself using BP? What? Use common sense here, guys. And really? If you are wondering what speed you need, you need the standard max + speed to keep up with standard Greninjas. Now that I am done trashing your ideas, lets get into the set. Dual Water/Dark STAB for obvious reasons, U-turn to predict switch outs and gain offensive momentum, and Ice Beam to handle D-nites and Grass-types. Overall, this set is strong and you could switch out life orb for Focus sash, because focus sash guarentees 2 hits, rather than one life-orb boosted hit.

 

[Omgwyatt]

Greninja@Life Orb
Trait: Protean
EVS: 252 Spe/ 252 Spa/ 4 Hp
Nature: Hasty/Timid
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Dark Pulse
-U-turn/Hidden Power [Grass]/ Hidden Power [Fire]
-Ice Beam
I disagree with all of you about the 168 Spa issue. Once again, Greninja's purpose is to hit fast and hard. You are taking away that role from Greninja. Anyway, what are you going to put the remaining 188 EV's in after you maxed out speed and put in 168 Spa? Anyways, Ice Beam, as stated by S0L1D G0LD, does not OHKO 100% of the time, thus cutting its rampage and use much shorter than it may potentially be, overall, you are wasting the ninja's great potential with Protean. Did you even factor in STAB while doing calculations, even Multiscale? Why would you even risk getting completely OHKOed by Dragonite? It has 134 base Attack. What are you planning to do if you let it live and OHKO you? Bring in CB Scizor to expose yourself using BP? What? Use common sense here, guys. And really? If you are wondering what speed you need, you need the standard max + speed to keep up with standard Greninjas. Now that I am done trashing your ideas, lets get into the set. Dual Water/Dark STAB for obvious reasons, U-turn to predict switch outs and gain offensive momentum, and Ice Beam to handle D-nites and Grass-types. Overall, this set is strong and you could switch out life orb for Focus sash, because focus sash guarentees 2 hits, rather than one life-orb boosted hit.

Literally the worst post I've ever seen.

You take the most basic set, from page 2, throw some cliche's and act like you have some breakthrough. You completely ignore pages of discussion and data showing why it's viable to put 88 EV's into attack (it enables several 1 and 2HKO's with U-Turn, while retaining many 1-2HKO's with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam and whatever 3rd attack you've chosen) (no one is suggesting 252 Sp. A isn't also viable) , and then act as if you're some supreme authority when you literally add nothing that hasn't already been discussed time and time again. You didn't trash anything. Did you even read any of the previous 27 pages of discussion? Or even the last page where the damage calculations you're foolishly questioning (of course they factored STAB and Multiscale -_-) are available? I'm guessing no to both. Use common sense here, man. You've added absolutely nothing that hasn't already been said or thought of, on top of having an atrocious attitude. Dual water/dark stab..for "obvious" reasons....everything is stab. With only 168 Sp. A EV's, Ice Beam is guaranteed to OHKO Dragonite after Stealth Rock. Without SR, it still leaves it at next to nothing, say they do kill Greninja, you bring out Scizor, Bullet Punch or Pursuit if you suspect they're switching, and it dies. 1 for 1 trade, and you have one of the best Trappers in the game to dictate everything they do with Pursuit and U-Turn switch ins.

 

[astralArchivist]

I'm considering running the mixed set (Protean, Life Orb, Hasty, 252 Spe / 168 SAtk / 88 Atk, U-Turn, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, HP Fire), but I really would like to avoid using Hidden Power if at all possible. So my questions;

1) Is there anything reasonable to run instead of HP Fire? I've had Dark Pulse as my assumed replacement for a while, but I dunno if that would neuter my coverage too badly.
2) If HP Fire is really, truly what I need in that fourth slot, what are possible IV spreads that would result in it? I'm in the middle of breeding Froakies, so if anyone has any tips for how to breed for hidden power I'd appreciate that.

Thanks.

 

[RockStarFish]

I'm considering running the mixed set (Protean, Life Orb, Hasty, 252 Spe / 168 SAtk / 88 Atk, U-Turn, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, HP Fire), but I really would like to avoid using Hidden Power if at all possible. So my questions;

1) Is there anything reasonable to run instead of HP Fire? I've had Dark Pulse as my assumed replacement for a while, but I dunno if that would neuter my coverage too badly.
2) If HP Fire is really, truly what I need in that fourth slot, what are possible IV spreads that would result in it? I'm in the middle of breeding Froakies, so if anyone has any tips for how to breed for hidden power I'd appreciate that.

Thanks.

I think the main reason people use Dark Pulse isn't primarily for the extra coverage (covering Ghosts and Psychics isn't exactly that notable), but because it allows Greninja to counter Ghost-types. There aren't any STAB Ghost-type attacks that can OHKO a Greninja on the switch-in, even with its frail defenses, and Greninja's LO Protean Dark Pulse is often enough to OHKO those Ghost-types in return, making Greninja an effective Ghost counter, since it outspeeds every Ghost-type except Prankster Sableye/Mega Banette (and neither of them can do much to Greninja anyways).

 

[56k]

Greninja is one of the better HP Fire users I've ever seen because his speed is trolly and he doesn't care at all about that 30 Speed IV. Compare with Latios.

In my opinion u-turn/dark pulse/ice beam are the necessary moves and the fourth slot (surf?) is actually the most flexible one. Dark pulse alone is doing the most work by offering neutral coverage or better on anything that isn't dark/fighting/fairy. You won't often be missing out on water-weak KOs because no one in their right mind is going to switch in a fire type or ground type in the first place. He has STAB on everything, so it's not like he needs to be running hydro pump because it's a STAB move.

I still think u-turn/surf/icebeam/dark pulse is pretty much the most reliable set, but if you're trying to fit HP Fire or Grass Knot or Spikes or Extrasensory or Water Shuriken or Taunt in there to play around with different sets, consider dropping the water move. The very fact that you're experimenting and trying to use a more interesting and specialized set means u-turn just became that much more useful, dark pulse will get you plenty of sweep KOs, ice beam means you can 1hko dragons any time you feel like it, and your 4th move can do whatever technical specialty it was meant for.

 

[Schpoonman]

Greninja doesn't make HP Fire work because of his speed (or rather, isn't crippled because of it), he makes it work because of Protean. That being said, Hydro Pump is useful because it's Greninja's strongest attack against a neutral target (barring HP Fighting against Normal-types).

 

[strongarm85]

Is there anything that outspeeds AND can ohko this SOB?

Jolly Crobat /w Max Speed and Max Attack EVs OHKOs Geninja with Bravebird, even on a normal effective hit, unless of course Geninja is sashed. Choice Scarf Greninja also outspeeds, but if your running Protean Greninja, your not touching Choice.

 

[Jin White]

Is there anything that outspeeds AND can ohko this SOB?

LO Talonflame, Timid Specs Noivern, and Timid Specs Jolteon all fit the bill too.

Scarfers are probably your best answer. I can't tell you how many lead Greninjas Scarf Rotom-H has fried right off the bat just with Volt Switch (Rotom-W will do the same). Scarf Genesect and Scarf Salamence work, and Salamence gets a moxie boost for the kill.

Another option I like, at least late game, is to find something to tank one hit and set up on it. Gyarados, Feraligatr (!?) and even Charizard X can all take a hit and Dragon Dance, and then outspeed for the kill with EQ.

Jolly Crobat /w Max Speed and Max Attack EVs OHKOs Geninja with Bravebird, even on a normal effective hit, unless of course Geninja is sashed. Choice Scarf Greninja also outspeeds, but if your running Protean Greninja, your not touching Choice.

You'd be surprised. Scarf Lead Greninja is apparently a thing not saying it's a good thing.

 

[Schpoonman]

Yeah, please don't use Scarf Greninja. Outside of Dark Pulse flinching Deo-S leads (which isn't anywhere close to a given), he's roughly as useful as defensive Greninja. Like strongarm85 said, stay away from Choice sets in general, but if you must put a Choice item on him, run Specs with U-turn. Everything else is not really good enough to consider.

 

[blizzarddd]

a fun gimmicky set to catch people off guard is banded greninja

Greninja Choice Band
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP

-Return
-Waterfall/Water Shuriken
-U-turn
-Night Slash/something else

good to shock those florges / other special walls that want to switch in on greninja, and 95 base attack is passable.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

On the all out attacker set, the reason for using dark pulse is "secondary STAB," which seems a bit useless on any set running Protean. Is Dark Pulse really the best move for coverage, or is there something else that could work better in that slot? Potentially spikes, of course, but that does nothing for coverage and is a lot less useful with defog clearing both sides now.

Another option is Scald; since Greninja doesn't have the highest special attack, Scald can often do *more* damage to walls on the switch, providing it nets the burn. It should definitely be slashed in/listed under the "other options" section.

Yeah, but using a physical Greninja just to catch people off guard is a waste of potential. IMO, either mixed or special, and nothing else.

Although once pokebank is released, [Protean] STAB Acrobatics might make it somewhat viable.

 

[Tesung]

Not investing fully in species attack is literally retarded. Yes, I get that it doesn't get you any notable 2hkoes, but this is a Pokemon battle, and assuming that a Pokemon is at full health is ridiculous. While I don't feel like doing calcs, let's say a rotom is just out if kill range for dark pulse with 168 Evs, it's ridiculous to not kill it for a slightly stronger u turn, especially as u turn is used more for momentum than coverage

 

[VCrowe]

Not investing fully in species attack is literally retarded. Yes, I get that it doesn't get you any notable 2hkoes, but this is a Pokemon battle, and assuming that a Pokemon is at full health is ridiculous. While I don't feel like doing calcs, let's say a rotom is just out if kill range for dark pulse with 168 Evs, it's ridiculous to not kill it for a slightly stronger u turn, especially as u turn is used more for momentum than coverage

Calcs have been given to show that running 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd is perfectly viable. Greninja's goal isn't to outright KO everything, it's to sweep late game, and 168 SAtk is all you need to do that. I suggest you go back a few pages to look at the calcs for my set before trashing it.

 

[Tesung]

Calcs have been given to show that running 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd is perfectly viable. Greninja's goal isn't to outright KO everything, it's to sweep late game, and 168 SAtk is all you need to do that. I suggest you go back a few pages to look at the calcs for my set before trashing it.

Exactly, so why wouldn't you want as much power as possible when sweeping late game? It's u turn isn't going to help it, but a more powerful hydro pump could

 

[VCrowe]

Exactly, so why wouldn't you want as much power as possible when sweeping late game? It's u turn isn't going to help it, but a more powerful hydro pump could

A more powerful U-turn helps more than a more powerful Hydro Pump, because maxing out SAtk nets absolutely no notable OHKO or 2HKO that 168 SAtk doesn't, whereas an 88 Atk U-turn grabs a plethora of notable OHKO's and 2HKO's that 4 atk doesn't, such as Latios, Espeon, Celebi, Alakazam, and Reuniclus just to name a few. This is helpful because Dark Pulse is made slightly redundant by U-turn, which grants nearly the same coverage as Dark Pulse but with the added benefit of momentum. Therefore a moveset of U-Turn, Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam is limiting your coverage. To answer this, I came up with the EV spread of 88 / 168 /252 (Originally 96 / 168 / 244) with the moveset of U-turn, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, HP Fire (the one in the OP). This set grants you excellant coverage, stronger U-turns, and all the power Greninja needs to clean up late game.

 

[Skyblade12]

One question that's been bugging me for quite a while: Why do you bother listing 2HKOs for U-Turn? Once you U-Turn, Greninja is out of there. You either have to waste a turn to switch back, or you have another Pokémon out, who, if you planned at all intelligently, should be able to finish off the weakened threat on its own.

A single Pokémon's U-Turn may 2HKO, but there's always the third turn of getting the U-Turner back on the field, which means it's essentially a 3HKO for practical purposes.

 

[VCrowe]

One question that's been bugging me for quite a while: Why do you bother listing 2HKOs for U-Turn? Once you U-Turn, Greninja is out of there. You either have to waste a turn to switch back, or you have another Pokémon out, who, if you planned at all intelligently, should be able to finish off the weakened threat on its own.

A single Pokémon's U-Turn never 2HKOs, because there's always the third turn of getting the U-Turner back on the field.

I bother listing 2HKO's for U-turn because it's purpose isn't simply to switch. No, theres a button for that. U-turns purpose is to deal damage THEN switch, so having an 88 Atk Greninja U-turn and leave the opponent with very little HP is extremelly helpful because it makes that 'mon useless for your opponent and brings another of your 'mons onto the battlefield, all in the same turn.

edit: I seriously don't understand you newer members... If you're using U-turn just to switch, you might as well drop it for something else.

 

[Skyblade12]

edit: I seriously don't understand you newer members... If you're using U-turn just to switch, you might as well drop it for something else.

Yeah, snipe me for being newer. By, what, a month and a half? Stick to valid arguments, please.

Of course it's to switch and deal damage. That doesn't mean you want to detract from his main form of dealing damage to do that. The higher Special Attack lets you run more practical moves (Surf over Hydro Pump), or adds to his kill potential flat out. Losing that to boost his tertiary method of attacking still hasn't been shown to be effectively viable. Since, again, whoever you're switching to should be able to handle the threat regardless of the handful of extra attack points.

There's a reason why the QA sets have all taken strict Special Attack spreads.

 

[VCrowe]

Yeah, cheer at me for being newer. By, what, a month and a half? Stick to valid arguments, please.

Of course it's to switch and deal damage. That doesn't mean you want to detract from his main form of dealing damage to do that. The higher Special Attack lets you run more practical moves (Surf over Hydro Pump), or adds to his kill potential flat out. Losing that to boost his tertiary method of attacking still hasn't been shown to be effectively viable. Since, again, whoever you're switching to should be able to handle the threat regardless of the handful of extra attack points.

There's a reason why the QA sets have all taken strict Special Attack spreads.

You obviously haven't taken the time to read the whole thread becaus if you had you would know that this set is perfectly viable. Countless damage calcs have been given showing that Greninja can function effectively with this EV spread.

Also, the reason the QA sets are all Specail attackers i because its a pre-pokebank analysis. This set is built for post-pokebank.

You're simply doing nothing more than jumping on the bandwagon and not considering the facts. 4 / 252 /252 spreads are often the least flexible sets out there. Since Greninja is a late game cleaner/revenge killer, he needs to be as flexible as possible. My set grants this flexibility without hampering his effectiveness whatsoever. Please take the time to look at the calcs on the previous pages before assuming that it's ineffective, becuase if I can climb to 1900+ on PS using this set, then it obviously works.

 

[Skyblade12]

You obviously haven't taken the time to read the whole thread becaus if you had you would know that this set is perfectly viable. Countless damage calcs have been given showing that Greninja can function effectively with this EV spread.

Also, the reason the QA sets are all Specail attackers i because its a pre-pokebank analysis. This set is built for post-pokebank.

You're simply doing nothing more than jumping on the bandwagon and not considering the facts. 4 / 252 /252 spreads are often the least flexible sets out there. Since Greninja is a late game cleaner/revenge killer, he needs to be as flexible as possible. My set grants this flexibility without hampering his effectiveness whatsoever. Please take the time to look at the calcs on the previous pages before assuming that it's ineffective, becuase if I can climb to 1900+ on PS using this set, then it obviously works.

You mean the single calc on the last page that lists a not-guaranteed OHKO against Multiscale Dragonite? That calc? Because that's the only one on the last page.

Or do you mean the huge list you linked to on the page prior, which lists exactly 2 uses of U-Turn, one of which is, again, not a guaranteed OHKO (Espeon), and is running Hydro Pump instead of Surf, which means that your "Guaranteed" OHKOs with Hydro Pump are less reliable?

And, again, this assumes that the damage difference between 4 Atk and 96 Atk EVs for U-Turn not only makes a difference to Greninja's kill list, but also that the damage done by the extras will be important to the follow up Pokémon, which is heavily dependent on team setup.

 

[VCrowe]

You mean the single calc on the last page that lists a not-guaranteed OHKO against Multiscale Dragonite? That calc? Because that's the only one on the last page.

Or do you mean the huge list you linked to on the page prior, which lists exactly 2 uses of U-Turn, one of which is, again, not a guaranteed OHKO (Espeon), and is running Hydro Pump instead of Surf, which means that your "Guaranteed" OHKOs with Hydro Pump are less reliable?

And, again, this assumes that the damage difference between 4 Atk and 96 Atk EVs for U-Turn not only makes a difference to Greninja's kill list, but also that the damage done by the extras will be important to the follow up Pokémon, which is heavily dependent on team setup.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/4959841

How about reading the entirety of this thread for the rest of the calcs? You're obviously set in your opinion, and not willing to listen to reason, or see the facts for what they are. If I have time later today, I'll PM you the rest once I find them. However, I won't take place in any further arguments on this thread. If you want to continue this debate later when I send the calcs, then I'd be happy to discuss it with you, in a pleasant manner, through PM.

 

[Tressed]

On the all out attacker set, the reason for using dark pulse is "secondary STAB," which seems a bit useless on any set running Protean. Is Dark Pulse really the best move for coverage, or is there something else that could work better in that slot? Potentially spikes, of course, but that does nothing for coverage and is a lot less useful with defog clearing both sides now.

Another option is Scald; since Greninja doesn't have the highest special attack, Scald can often do *more* damage to walls on the switch, providing it nets the burn. It should definitely be slashed in/listed under the "other options" section.

Water + Dark is great neutral coverage this gen, what with Dark being buffed, but U-Turn hits most of those targets anyways. The only thing I'd really consider running Dark Pulse for is Jellicent, but I'd rather run HP Electric for better neutral coverage.

If you're using Hydro Pump, I'd stick with that, but Scald seems like a better option than Surf because that sexy burn chance outweighs the benefits of 10 extra BP, unless there's something specific I'm forgetting.

 

[Skyblade12]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/4959841

How about reading the entirety of this thread for the rest of the calcs? You're obviously set in your opinion, and not willing to listen to reason, or see the facts for what they are. If I have time later today, I'll PM you the rest once I find them. However, I won't take place in any further arguments on this thread. If you want to continue this debate later when I send the calcs, then I'd be happy to discuss it with you, in a pleasant manner, through PM.

You were the one who dismissed my thoughts as a "newer member". I haven't insulted you, nor have I spoken without factual basis. The list you just linked to shows exactly two uses of U-Turn, and one of them is a potential OHKO instead of a guaranteed OHKO. The set also necessitates running Hydro Pump over Surf, and loses the guaranteed OHKO on Multiscale Dragonite, Latios, and Ferrothorn.

I am not saying that there are not merits to the Attack investment, I'm simply pointing out that there is plenty of reason to not invest extra points there which could be used to boost your standard attacks or swap out Hydro Pump for a move that won't miss 1/5th of the time.

Also, I have read the entire thread. But, believe it or not, reading it is not the same thing as agreeing with it. Or, in this case, agreeing with the handful of members who have argued for +Atk.

 

[UR2L8]

My noob set

Greninja @ Expert Belt
Protean
Timid
252 Satk/252 Spd/4 def

Taunt
HP Grass
Scald
Ice Beam

Meant to be used as a lead.
HP Grass will dent Rotom-W and will usually OHKO HP Fire Greninja because HP Grass puts us 1 point of speed faster than them.
Scald for hax chance, and I really can't be bothered with missing Hydro Pump.
Ice Beam because I believe each and every Protean Greninja needs to take advantage of this.
Expert Belt because I don't need to scald an incoming Ferro for 6% and then lose 10%

Thoughts?

 

[Skyblade12]

My noob set

Greninja @ Expert Belt
Protean
Timid
252 Satk/252 Spd/4 def

Taunt
HP Grass
Scald
Ice Beam

Meant to be used as a lead.
HP Grass will dent Rotom-W and will usually OHKO HP Fire Greninja because HP Grass puts us 1 point of speed faster than them.
Scald for hax chance, and I really can't be bothered with missing Hydro Pump.
Ice Beam because I believe each and every Protean Greninja needs to take advantage of this.
Expert Belt because I don't need to scald an incoming Ferro for 6% and then lose 10%

Thoughts?

If I may ask, why Taunt? Greninja isn't the bulkiest Pokémon. He can't take hits, and you'd be better off with more coverage than baiting walls, wouldn't you?