Scizor and Skarmory are kinda hard for him I guess.
So then U-turning into a Ghost type after spikes is more Viable than using Shadow Sneak? If so, I can see this strategy being Viable. I might give it a try.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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Scizor and Skarmory are kinda hard for him I guess.
So then U-turning into a Ghost type after spikes is more Viable than using Shadow Sneak? If so, I can see this strategy being Viable. I might give it a try.
Yes. Mainly, the fact that Hydro Pump is the strongest / most accurate move Greninja can get. Blizzard is equally strong under Protean STAB, but it's inaccurate and not usually worth using over Ice Beam unless you've got Abomasnow as a teammate.
And for the last time, physical Greninja is BAD. Its phsyical moves are undisputably weaker due to their overall-lower BP (for everything but Acrobatics which forces you to forgo Life Orb) and Greninja's Base Attack is just flat-out weaker than its Special Attack on top of that. Its only means of boosting is P-up Punch, which it is too fragile to set up properly/reliably/consistently. I seriously do NOT think a physical attacking set is a viable way to go with this guy.
Even tho Physical isn't the right build, U-turn is still Viable, is it not? I mean it allows you to switch and do damage. Or would the move slot be more useful with something else?
I never said mixed Greninja (AKA Special Greninja with U-turn) wasn't viable, if you'll notice. I'm just saying attacking sets that are all-physical are worse than ones that rely primarily on
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LO greninja 2HkO's threats you'd to KO with U-turn without Atk investments, and even with investments it won't do better than score 2HKOs (except for Bulky Starmie but only barely).
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 291-346 (90.09 - 107.12%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
It's best used as an option for mixed or even special sets.
U-turn is good for its switching effect, NOT for its damage. Personally, on a lot of Pokemon that would sometimes run U-turn (like Scarf Hydreigon), I still opt for a nature that drops Attack so as to not compromise respectable bulk. Scizor (and to an extent Genesect) had STAB and extremely high attack stats so it turned into a prime damage-dealing move for them. Greninja is in a weird spot because it does get STAB so its U-turn will be more powerful than many other users of the move, but Greninja's movepool is still infinitely more geared for special attacking and so using him entirely physically is a waste.
I only mentioned Shadow Sneak because of Mach Punch. It's a perfect check on Greninja.
I know, and I wouldn't use it on a all physicsl set. Only physical move would be U turn that I would use.
Well, it is a gimmick and also a waste of a slot, but I guess you could use it if you have no other way to deal with users of that move.
You should have teammates to help you with Breloom and other Mach Punch mons; if you don't, then it isn't a great team to be honest.
I'm new to competitive battling, but how this greninja?
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid | Protean
4 HP / 252 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe (IV are 31/xx/31/31/31/31)
Ice Beam
Spikes
Extrasensory / Surf / Hydro Pump
U-Turn / Protect / Substitute
I can't decide which ones to choose for the last 2. The other pokemon with perfect IV's I have so far are Aegislash, Kangaskhan, Tyranitar, Rotom(Wash?), Garchomp, and Mawile.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid | Protean
4 HP / 252 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe (IV are 31/xx/31/31/31/31)
Ice Beam
Spikes
Extrasensory / Surf / Hydro Pump
U-Turn / Protect / Substitute
I can't decide which ones to choose for the last 2. The other pokemon with perfect IV's I have so far are Aegislash, Kangaskhan, Tyranitar, Rotom(Wash?), Garchomp, and Mawile.
Idk if this was posted already but greninja makes a great anti lead.
Greninja@ lum berry/ red card
Jolly Eve 252 spe 162 atk 100 hp
Moves- spikes
Taunt
U turn
Rock slide/ shadow sneak
With this set and lum greninja is able to beat nearly every viable lead I'm currently aware of. Lum is to deal with prankster klefki which gives him problems with status, and all really mess with him. He's fast enough to taunt smeargle and galvantula and deals massive damage. the last slot is a bit of a wash. obviously rock slide hits for better damage and the flinch chance has saved my life more than once, however shadow sneak has the interesting quality of making greninja his own spin blocker as well, something that can be of great advantage
Greninja@ lum berry/ red card
Jolly Eve 252 spe 162 atk 100 hp
Moves- spikes
Taunt
U turn
Rock slide/ shadow sneak
With this set and lum greninja is able to beat nearly every viable lead I'm currently aware of. Lum is to deal with prankster klefki which gives him problems with status, and all really mess with him. He's fast enough to taunt smeargle and galvantula and deals massive damage. the last slot is a bit of a wash. obviously rock slide hits for better damage and the flinch chance has saved my life more than once, however shadow sneak has the interesting quality of making greninja his own spin blocker as well, something that can be of great advantage
This set isn't that great. First of all, it has Red Card when Greninja cannot take most hits. Lum Berry doesn't make too much sense either. Second of all, investing in HP is a bad, bad idea. You should never try to give Greninja bulk especially that isn't there. You should be investing in Speed, Special Attack, and Attack. That's it. Third of all, why Rock Slide? Why Shadow Sneak? Even if you want to use Greninja as an anti-lead, then you should go for Hyrdo Pump and Ice Beam (or something similar) in order to fire off some damage and KO most Spinners and Defog-users.
Here are some calculations by VCrowe (thanks) Personally, I prefer Hydro Pump as it is Greninja's strongest move and does get some KOs that Surf doesn't.
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.7 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 276-328 (71.68 - 85.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 166-198 (41.08 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 203-242 (50.24 - 59.9%) -- 78.91% chance to 2HKO
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Alright, so I finally made this bastard in game. On a Spikes set, which more viable U-Turn or HP Fire? Can one be used over the other for the set to still function well?
None of those calculations are correct. The correct calculations are as follows;
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.7 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 276-328 (71.68 - 85.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 166-198 (41.08 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 203-242 (50.24 - 59.9%) -- 78.91% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 328-385 (96.18 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 398-471 (116.71 - 138.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In all of my calculations, "Custom" is a Water-type Pokémon with 103 base SpA, Hydro Pump is set to 110BP and Surf is set to 90BP.
The only of the above Pokémon where Hydro Pump is the better choice is against Tyranitar, but Hydro Pump's 80% accuracy rate means you're actually only 50.5% to 2HKO. A coin flip.
Are any of the common priority-based checks weak to Water/Ghost? I could see physical acting as a lure by pulling in ordinary checks/counters and clobbering them with faster priority in Water Shuriken/Shadow Sneak (although I'm not really sure what exactly this would hit...Mach Punch Infernape?)
See this bolded sentence? This happens less than once in a blue moon.
That was already addressed, and the calculations have since been corrected. Magicfire must've accidentally grabbed the wrong ones.
Yeah, I sorta figured :/. Although I did just realize that Shadow Sneak has a gimmick in causing Hi Jump Kick to miss in a situation where you don't have a Ghost switch-in available, but while hilarious that's not really practical.
Been running hp grass instead of dark pulse on lead/spiker sets.
It has amazing synergy with Talonflame. Hp grass weakens rotom w enough so tflame can 2hko with bb after rocks. Tflame also likes spikes too.
Hp grass also lets it sponge spores which is pretty funny lol.
Hydro pump/ice beam/hp grass has sick coverage and most things you hit with dark pulse are koed by something else. Except maybe gyara and tentacruel? You still lose to ferro, but that's not a big deal.
It has amazing synergy with Talonflame. Hp grass weakens rotom w enough so tflame can 2hko with bb after rocks. Tflame also likes spikes too.
Hp grass also lets it sponge spores which is pretty funny lol.
Hydro pump/ice beam/hp grass has sick coverage and most things you hit with dark pulse are koed by something else. Except maybe gyara and tentacruel? You still lose to ferro, but that's not a big deal.
Hydro Pump may be better not only on Heatran but for it to deal more damage to Pokemon neutral to Water as well.
It has Grass Knot...which is better since Hidden Power got nerfed and Grass Knot doesn't take up the Hidden Power slot.
Whoops...sorry..
Hp grass hits harder on everything lighter than gyra I'm pretty sure... it has like 10 bp against rotom w.
People like you are why I dislike Smogon in general. Sure, its not a special set, but it works. Especially with the flinch rate on Water Shuriken. Many a user has ragequit from being paraflinched by Bounce and then water Shuriken. It works, and sure I am not conforming but you know what, it works.
I mean granted there are some nice sorts on Smogon, but the Elitest and Snobby attitude is just disgusting. I try to win with my favourites my way, not the way everyone else tells me.
People expect my Greninja in battles to be specially based and are rather surprised when it is not. I do not want to go Cookie Cutter and use what everyone else is using
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Let's analyze that claim, that Gyarados is the lightest Pokemon that Grass Knot "effectively" hits. Now, HP Grass has set damage at 60 BP, whereas Grass Knot runs the gamut from 20 BP, one-third Hidden Power's power, to 120, twice its power. So unless you are exclusively seeing Pokemon under 25 kg, Grass Knot is the better choice. Let's look at some old OU Pokemon that you would want to target with Grass Knot or HP Grass and see whether or not such a dramatic drop in power is worth it for the sake of "consistency".
Cloyster: 132.5 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Donphan: 120 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Gastrodon: 29.9 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Gyarados: 235.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Hippowdon: 300.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Jellicent: 135.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Keldeo: 48.5 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Mamoswine: 291.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Politoed 33.9 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Rotom-W 0.3 kg - Grass Knot BP: 20
Starmie: 80.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 80
Vaporeon: 29.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
There are only five Pokemon from BW OU that did not take more damage from Grass Knot, and only one of them is actually hit harder by Hidden Power Grass. In the mean time, you are hitting 7 Pokemon that Grass Knot would royally fuck up far weaker with Hidden Power Grass. Finally, you are taking up the slot that could be going to Hidden Power Fire (arguably Greninja's most useful move after Ice Beam), while Grass Knot gives all the benefits and none of the drawbacks, with the lone exception of Rotom-W who can't take repeated Dark Pulses or Extrasensorys unless it's specially defensive in the first place.
Cloyster: 132.5 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Donphan: 120 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Gastrodon: 29.9 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Gyarados: 235.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Hippowdon: 300.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Jellicent: 135.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 100
Keldeo: 48.5 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Mamoswine: 291.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 120
Politoed 33.9 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
Rotom-W 0.3 kg - Grass Knot BP: 20
Starmie: 80.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 80
Vaporeon: 29.0 kg - Grass Knot BP: 60
There are only five Pokemon from BW OU that did not take more damage from Grass Knot, and only one of them is actually hit harder by Hidden Power Grass. In the mean time, you are hitting 7 Pokemon that Grass Knot would royally fuck up far weaker with Hidden Power Grass. Finally, you are taking up the slot that could be going to Hidden Power Fire (arguably Greninja's most useful move after Ice Beam), while Grass Knot gives all the benefits and none of the drawbacks, with the lone exception of Rotom-W who can't take repeated Dark Pulses or Extrasensorys unless it's specially defensive in the first place.
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I disagree at this point in particular, but the rest of your post is solid.
If you're using Hydro Pump/Surf, Ice Beam, and U-Turn which is fairly standard at this point I'd think (And if you aren't taking U-Turn, you should be taking Dark Pulse), then it hardly matters. You are either going to take HP Fire, or Grass Knot. So if you take HP Grass, it is essentially taking a "safer" alternative to Grass Knot. You're not losing the HP Fire slot because your move set would be full.
Not that I would do that, but just saying that you aren't really losing any coverage by doing so.
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