I usually run a Scraggy on my main team. >:(
Liepard is good too, may want to run Foul Play to counter Guts abusers, especially the anticipated Gothitelle/Zangoose team.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gothitelle Discussion
- Thread starter uxsee
- Start date
- Status
Liepard is good too, may want to run Foul Play to counter Guts abusers, especially the anticipated Gothitelle/Zangoose team.
This is why Cacturne is a good counter, people are careless ! they are thinking lol im +6 you cant do a shit too me, and then they end up being set up fodder and KO'ed only thinking about that they are +6, and they are "unbeatable" many players thinks like this. And Encore breaks through the sub, meaning you will be locked into a move and Cacturne can just spam Sucker Punch or Bullet Seed. Signal Beam will be the only threath too him but you will never send Cacturne into Signal Beam lol just sayin.
Diglett or Trapinch don't get Thunder Wave ;_;. Attract trapping is also unreliable as fuck.
Irrelevant, once I get to +6 I OHKO whatever I trapped with coverage move just in case kids ballsy and try to beat with random encore shit/inmune to Psychic next turn. And Cacturne is not taking well the only coverage move it resists +6 SpAtk Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Cacturne: 70.11% - 82.56% (2 hits to KO)
. SubCMGothitelle will only lose against Cacturne(actually any dark-type) if the user is retarded.
You will only Signal Beam/Thunderbolt what Psychic doesnt hit effectively. As Cacturne is faster it can Encore it before getting hitted (Ofc this has to be when its using either Psychic, Substitute or Calm Mind, and lol the user dont need too be retarded too lose against a dark type.
If it is SubCM it needs to be retarded. SubCM is the only set that can actually beat all dark-types(including Scraggy if Molk reads this) by herself as not even the shitty band Absol Pursuit can stop its fun, and last turn where it kills the original trapped mon is always an attack, no exceptions, so encoring sub or cm is not going to happen anytime soon.And even if that happened, Cacturne is THE EASIEST dark type to play around with about any partner Gothitelle is aiding for a Sweep such as Klang, about any fighting-type not called Emboar, and SD Samurott.
Because this thread neeeds it.
Without a recovery move, using Lefties is essential for keeping Gothitelle healthy.
Actually, as I stated before, people have been testing Rest. It can be okay at best, while substitute is probably a better option. However, the recovery can be good if you play Gothitelle correctly.
Substitute > Rest, but recovery in leftovers is required without it.
Edit: @The Gothitelle guide: While I find that amusing, people should definitely look at it. It helps.
Substitute > Rest, but recovery in leftovers is required without it.
Edit: @The Gothitelle guide: While I find that amusing, people should definitely look at it. It helps.
Rest is still fun to use as it gets rid of scald burns and toxics on the switch (that happened to me the first fucking time i tried it D:). Its definetely better than Heal Bell, unless ur team has no Zangoose/Swellow, u r in dire need of a cleric, and have no tspikes absorbers.
Rest is only better than Heal Bell if you lack leftovers and decide to additionally equip Gothitelle with Chesto Berry. Otherwise you're going to have to stall those turns out or switch Goth out and heal it later with a cleric.
I don't think Gothitelle should start running sets that other Pokemon do better just because it has Shadow Tag. Choice Scarf and Trick Room should be left to Gardevoir and Duosion (okay, Duosion isn't the greatest example, but Exeggutor and Musharna can both do it too), respectively. Choice Scarf might be necessary if one of the things that Gothitelle needs to trap outspeeds it and would beat it otherwise, but that's really the only thing I can think of.
Choice Scarf would in theory be okay if you're really struggling with Cinccino and Zangoose (and other stuff outside of its normal speed tier such as Samurott), but Timid Choice Scarf is pathetically weak and can't even OHKO any of those Pokemon. It also fails to outspeed Swellow. I wouldn't bother with it to be perfectly honest.
Flame Orb would probably be the better choice since Gothitelle can just use Toxic and achieve the same thing while retaining Leftovers recovery. However, it's gonna be hard to stall out a Pokemon with just burn damage. To be honest, I'd rather just Trick a choice item onto the opposing Pokemon since Gothitelle's main targets are bulky walls.
But if you've switched out to bring her in (rather than letting something faint for a free entrance) then the orb will activate on her before you can trick it away. Magic Guard Kadabra could potentially run the same set and not have to worry about taking damage from the status that it would inflict upon itself. Additionally, (even though this isn't too important of a point) we have Floatzel for Flame Orb tricking, which works much better. To be honest the strategy itself is a little gimmicky, and I'd suggest more viable alternatives before Orb Tricking, most of which have already been mentioned.
EDIT: I also somewhat agree with most of what FLCL (the motherfucking super ninja) said.
EDIT: I also somewhat agree with most of what FLCL (the motherfucking super ninja) said.
Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This is currently my favorite Gothitelle set and can act as a wall-breaker or an extremely effective sweeper once Dark-types are removed. What separates this from the other Calm Mind sets is its ability to take out walls, switch out when a counter comes in, and kill more Pokemon later. The Substitute or Taunt sets will get worn down when setting up on something like Alomomola and are susceptible to Toxic when switching in. This set doesn't have to worry about that thanks to Sleep Talk and Rest.
Shadow Tag works perfectly with a mono-attacking set since they are usually very finite because they either beat something or get walled by something. Additionally, another problem with this type of set is that they hit like a wet paper bag even after one or two boosts, and the opponent can simply switch to a counter while it is still setting up. Obviously, Gothitelle can just switch in on something that can't hurt it such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, Miltank, or non Dragon Tail Lickilicky and remove them from the match. Even if a Dark-type comes in, Gothitelle can simply switch out, surviving every Pursuit in the game assuming it's healthy, come back later against a wall, Rest up, and start again.
I've faced about a dozen of these today. They are ANNOYING! It can totally put a wrench in a person's battle plan and can break all my favorite walls. I will definitely be looking behind my shoulder for this in the future.
Gothitelle doesn't actually seem as much of a threat as I thought. Especially against teams that have Spikes/Stealth rocks.
Spikes and Rocks together hurt most Pokemon anyway. Add a Skuntank into the mix (yes, I know it's listed as a threat. But Skuntank can find its way in on just about any playstyle), and Gothitelle has to switch and either live, and come back to die, or just die. (No calcs for you).
^That again being said, most teams without spinners vs Entray Hazards may have pursuit problems, but Gothitelle the most.
(Being stuck asleep and slow is no fun if you have to switch anyway)
On a side note, FLCL, that Gothitelle is hawt.
Spikes and Rocks together hurt most Pokemon anyway. Add a Skuntank into the mix (yes, I know it's listed as a threat. But Skuntank can find its way in on just about any playstyle), and Gothitelle has to switch and either live, and come back to die, or just die. (No calcs for you).
^That again being said, most teams without spinners vs Entray Hazards may have pursuit problems, but Gothitelle the most.
(Being stuck asleep and slow is no fun if you have to switch anyway)
On a side note, FLCL, that Gothitelle is hawt.
The problem with facing Gothitelle is that it will KO anything it has an advantage against. If your Pokemon doesn't have a way to escape or isn't running some bullshit coverage move that you had to come up with, it's almost certainly going to get wiped out by an opponent's Gothitelle. The fact that it's bulky enough to survive Pursuits from powerful Dark-types is also somewhat unsettling. Even against skilled players this thing can be very dangerous, possibly more dangerous than Zangoose, Gorebyss, and even Jynx.
I believe I played one of the annoying Gothitelles that The Zororoaster faced. Those were some good games.
For me, Modest Specs works the best on my offensive teams because I think that Gothi needs all the immediate power it can get. Shadow Tag is obviously very good with Choice items because the user doesn't need to predict which attack to use most of the time. Here's what I run currently:
Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Signal Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
It is definitely a skill-testing mon - when the opponent plays better, Gothi does nothing, and when the Gothi player uses it better, it wrecks so many things. This is especially noticable in matches where both teams have one.
More than anything, Shadow Tag on a mon capable of attacking is very punishing of misplays, since barring Shed Shell shenanigans and faster volt-turners, allowing it to come in on the wrong mon means a KO will happen.
For me, Modest Specs works the best on my offensive teams because I think that Gothi needs all the immediate power it can get. Shadow Tag is obviously very good with Choice items because the user doesn't need to predict which attack to use most of the time. Here's what I run currently:
Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Signal Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
It is definitely a skill-testing mon - when the opponent plays better, Gothi does nothing, and when the Gothi player uses it better, it wrecks so many things. This is especially noticable in matches where both teams have one.
More than anything, Shadow Tag on a mon capable of attacking is very punishing of misplays, since barring Shed Shell shenanigans and faster volt-turners, allowing it to come in on the wrong mon means a KO will happen.
I've been using Modest Specs as well, and in my opinion thats probably its best set. I ran HP Fighting > Signal Beam though, primarily because my team wanted to get rid of Probopass / Bastiodon. Its usefullness has most certainly been a mixed bag though, as Xei touched on. I've found it to struggle against offensive teams, more often than not it ends up either as fodder or taking out one Pokemon max, mostly as a revenge kill. Its middling Speed really holds in back in this regard, as it simply cannot impact on a game against an offensive team when it is outsped and 2HKOed by most common offensive Pokemon.
Against balance is where I feel Gothitelle really shines, as it gets far more opportunities to pick and choose what it wants to take down, and finishing of that 50% Regirock or trapping Tangela can be absolutely pivotal in a match. As a side note, I am still stunned people haven't been using Shed Shell Amoonguss. The amount of times I have trapped a Leftovers version is stunning.
Against balance is where I feel Gothitelle really shines, as it gets far more opportunities to pick and choose what it wants to take down, and finishing of that 50% Regirock or trapping Tangela can be absolutely pivotal in a match. As a side note, I am still stunned people haven't been using Shed Shell Amoonguss. The amount of times I have trapped a Leftovers version is stunning.
Sweet Jesus
Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
My vacations got me to miss gothitelle's first appearances with its new abiltiy but I was pretty astonished to see that in the last 5 days, I've barely noticed anyone using it. those who did use it really didn't annoy me that much though I haven't faced any very good players using it iirc.
I still have been trying out gothitelle on my side and it's become a full time member of my current team. It really isn't the best thing on the team but has it's uses. I use a custom set I hadn't seen before and had a lot of fun trapping some bulky stuff that slow down my teams sweep like regirock, garbodor and others.
This set does lack power and usualy won't 2HKO the most bulky sets of garbodor and amoonguss but although one can stack spikes, amoonguss usualy doesn't get away because the bulky version is too weak to kill me even after spore.
Here's the set
Gothitelle @ Lum berry
Ability: shadow tag
EV's: 252 Hp 252 Def, 4Sp.D
Nature: bold
-Toxic
-psychic
-rest
-recycle
There's two main points that diferenciate the way this goth works when compared to the classic calm mind set. The first is toxic, while toxic doesn't make you become a complete monster like calm mind does, it can let you escape on the last killing turn keeping gothitelle away from pursuiting dark mons. Psychic is the only attacking move and is nice because it destroys poisons who are immune to toxic.
The second interesting fact about this goth is her recovery form. I use restocycle instead of resttalk. While both recovery forms share different advantages, I prefer restocycle because of being able to recover every 2 turns instead of every 3 turns and not having to lose your time hoping to get a good sleep talk move (you could even kill the hopless trapped mon before you finished setting up). This recovery form still has it's downside next to resttalk leaving you without leftovers, arguably weaker to spore (which has more pp than recycle) and gets you pretty pissed off when facing stuff using lavaplume, scald or discharge because of lum berry being consumed prematurely all the time.
This might seem weird but I also want to question the utility of sleep talk on rest talk set. During set up, sleep talk is only useful against powerful special attackes you might need an extra calm mind during sleep (and you usualy don't set up againt powerful special attackers). During the sweep, if your opponent can bring gothitelle to a must rest range before it's swept the whole team, there's a good chance he can kill it off before it can rest again, it won't acheive much with sleep talk or the rest of your team is capable of sweeping the remains anyway. Shouldn't that moveslot be used on coverage instead ? Goth is still outsped and OHKO'ed by absol but all other darks could be taken care of instead of being a straight counter to goth. Other than that I only see sleep talk being useful against stuff that is 3HKO'ing you on the physical side that you're likely to kill before setting up to tremendous hights.
I still have been trying out gothitelle on my side and it's become a full time member of my current team. It really isn't the best thing on the team but has it's uses. I use a custom set I hadn't seen before and had a lot of fun trapping some bulky stuff that slow down my teams sweep like regirock, garbodor and others.
This set does lack power and usualy won't 2HKO the most bulky sets of garbodor and amoonguss but although one can stack spikes, amoonguss usualy doesn't get away because the bulky version is too weak to kill me even after spore.
Here's the set
Gothitelle @ Lum berry
Ability: shadow tag
EV's: 252 Hp 252 Def, 4Sp.D
Nature: bold
-Toxic
-psychic
-rest
-recycle
There's two main points that diferenciate the way this goth works when compared to the classic calm mind set. The first is toxic, while toxic doesn't make you become a complete monster like calm mind does, it can let you escape on the last killing turn keeping gothitelle away from pursuiting dark mons. Psychic is the only attacking move and is nice because it destroys poisons who are immune to toxic.
The second interesting fact about this goth is her recovery form. I use restocycle instead of resttalk. While both recovery forms share different advantages, I prefer restocycle because of being able to recover every 2 turns instead of every 3 turns and not having to lose your time hoping to get a good sleep talk move (you could even kill the hopless trapped mon before you finished setting up). This recovery form still has it's downside next to resttalk leaving you without leftovers, arguably weaker to spore (which has more pp than recycle) and gets you pretty pissed off when facing stuff using lavaplume, scald or discharge because of lum berry being consumed prematurely all the time.
This might seem weird but I also want to question the utility of sleep talk on rest talk set. During set up, sleep talk is only useful against powerful special attackes you might need an extra calm mind during sleep (and you usualy don't set up againt powerful special attackers). During the sweep, if your opponent can bring gothitelle to a must rest range before it's swept the whole team, there's a good chance he can kill it off before it can rest again, it won't acheive much with sleep talk or the rest of your team is capable of sweeping the remains anyway. Shouldn't that moveslot be used on coverage instead ? Goth is still outsped and OHKO'ed by absol but all other darks could be taken care of instead of being a straight counter to goth. Other than that I only see sleep talk being useful against stuff that is 3HKO'ing you on the physical side that you're likely to kill before setting up to tremendous hights.
Since everybody else has already run the gamut of viable sets, it's time to start posting gimmicky crap.
Here's one I tested that was loads of fun to use:
Gothitelle @ Salac Berry
220 HP/252 Spe/36 SpAtk
Timid / Shadow Tag
Substitute
Calm Mind
Signal Beam
Psychic
Once this monster gets going...hoo boy you're in for a world of trouble. The idea is to get a few CM boosts, then trigger the Salac Berry. This makes Gothitelle much more difficult to revenge, because only the relatively uncommon Swellow is naturally faster. Priority is very common in NU, but you would only attempt a SubSalac Sweep after they have only one opposing priority user/scarfer. Having a Sub intact means she can take one priority hit that would end her sweep, which more often than not is enough to clean up a team. Memento support is a must, since without leftovers and lack of physical bulk it's much harder to set up. She really needs to get to around +4/+4 to really clean up, as with fewer boosts some walls can cleanly survive her Psychic and retaliate if she already lost her Sub.
edit: i'll go out on a limb and say that this is actually gothitelle's best set. yes, even better than the specs wallbreaker or the mono-psychic cm sets. Salac brings a whole new level of potential to the set, meaning that it will speed tie with Scarf Emboar and outpace Cinccino/Floatzel/etc.
Here's one I tested that was loads of fun to use:
Gothitelle @ Salac Berry
220 HP/252 Spe/36 SpAtk
Timid / Shadow Tag
Substitute
Calm Mind
Signal Beam
Psychic
Once this monster gets going...hoo boy you're in for a world of trouble. The idea is to get a few CM boosts, then trigger the Salac Berry. This makes Gothitelle much more difficult to revenge, because only the relatively uncommon Swellow is naturally faster. Priority is very common in NU, but you would only attempt a SubSalac Sweep after they have only one opposing priority user/scarfer. Having a Sub intact means she can take one priority hit that would end her sweep, which more often than not is enough to clean up a team. Memento support is a must, since without leftovers and lack of physical bulk it's much harder to set up. She really needs to get to around +4/+4 to really clean up, as with fewer boosts some walls can cleanly survive her Psychic and retaliate if she already lost her Sub.
edit: i'll go out on a limb and say that this is actually gothitelle's best set. yes, even better than the specs wallbreaker or the mono-psychic cm sets. Salac brings a whole new level of potential to the set, meaning that it will speed tie with Scarf Emboar and outpace Cinccino/Floatzel/etc.
- Status