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General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Fireburn
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SubSeed + Growth Skymin is really cool. The lack of Grass STAB to own Groudon and Kyogre is kind of disappointing, but if you get a free switch, you can easily set up a Sub and act accordingly. If you can set Growth up on it, do it and go crazy with Air Slash. If whatever came in something that resists Air Slash, just Leech Seed and stall it.
Is it just me or are Ho-oh teams locked in stasis? So you start with Ho-oh (1/6), realize you definitely need Groudon (2/6), and then afterwards you need a spinner that can't be Tentacruel or Excadrill because of no rain = use Forretress (3/6). Then you need a spinblocker that must be Giratina-O to deal with Deoxys-A (4/6), and then a Kyogre switch-in = Palkia (5/6), and then one more Water-resist somewhere because Kyogre using Thunder on Palkia isn't that uncommon.
Whoops, 6/6 Pokemon used, and only one of them is variable. @_@?
Whoops, 6/6 Pokemon used, and only one of them is variable. @_@?
Yeah, most Ho-Oh teams are pretty bog-standard, but they really don't have to be. Firstly, Ho-Oh does not need to be on a sun team. It is a lot more versatile than many people think. For example, it is a fantastic Pokemon to plonk in on a Hail team (yes, I've played Hail in Ubers) as a Fire resist, as well as being a good Pokemon on Sandstorm teams to deal with Grass types and Fighting Arceus. On the sandstorm team, you can easily elect to run Excadrill. I think the thing to realise is not how to support Ho-Oh, but how Ho-Oh can support your team, and everything would kind of fit around itself.
I've opted to use Specially Defensive Gira-a (It takes Spacial Rends from a Palkia! And can pp stall them out!) before instead of Palkia as an Ogrecheck and spin blocker and that freed up my options quite a bit. This gives you two slots for a revenge killer of choice and a filler. 3 If you consider counting Gira-a as your own water resist and think you don't need another one.
Honestly Ho-oh can take a Psycho Boost quite nicely courtesy of it's base 154 SpD stat and essentailly roost the damage off o.0, Deoxys-a is overated, besides the other Spinblockers can run enough Special Bulk to do the same anyways, Ghostceus and Specially Defensive Gira-a tank all of Deoxys-a's hits and can proceed to OHKO him with a dragon tail or Judgment. The ladder has recover to troll more :P.
Lol shrang so brave running Ho-oh on a team already massively weak to Stealth Rock @_@ Never thought about using Ho-oh on a sand team, though. Are Grass and Fighting Arceus that common?
@above - relying on Ho-oh to check Deoxys-A (or anything, for that matter) isn't very reliable imo. If it's sunny and there's no Stealth Rock, good, you can switch in. But what if that isn't the case? With Giratina-O you can pivot via a Pokemon like Dialga to Giratina-O on the Superpower and KO with Shadow Sneak, but not with Ho-oh. Never really considered specially defensive Giratina, but does it really take Spacial Rend from Palkia? I'm getting 252 SpA Timid Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252/252+ Calm Giratina: 46.4% - 54.8%, enough to 2HKO with SR. It does wall Kyogre though.
Also with regards to the tier in general: spinners are so much weaker than anti-spinners, which in turn makes Ferrothorn so strong. Ugh. Someone come up with a good spinning set that beats all of Giratina, Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus, please ...
@above - relying on Ho-oh to check Deoxys-A (or anything, for that matter) isn't very reliable imo. If it's sunny and there's no Stealth Rock, good, you can switch in. But what if that isn't the case? With Giratina-O you can pivot via a Pokemon like Dialga to Giratina-O on the Superpower and KO with Shadow Sneak, but not with Ho-oh. Never really considered specially defensive Giratina, but does it really take Spacial Rend from Palkia? I'm getting 252 SpA Timid Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252/252+ Calm Giratina: 46.4% - 54.8%, enough to 2HKO with SR. It does wall Kyogre though.
Also with regards to the tier in general: spinners are so much weaker than anti-spinners, which in turn makes Ferrothorn so strong. Ugh. Someone come up with a good spinning set that beats all of Giratina, Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus, please ...
He was talking about Giratina-A, not Giratina-O.
Speaking of Giratina-O, is there any good, underrated set for it? It seems like it can't really do that much without being out-classed.
Mixed? MixQuaza might be better. CM? Kyogre and Mewtwo are better IMO.
Another pokemon I have trouble finding a niche for is...Rayquaza.
Yes, DD is good, but I feel like I'm just using such a generic dragon set.
I'm not saying you shouldn't use it or that it's bad, it just doesn't feel like "Rayquaza". The Mixed set is good too, but it can't sweep, so I'm not using it for him.
The SD set on the other hand does feel a bit more unique to him, but it's so out-classed by Extreme Killer. The only thing it has over EK is the ability to easily kill Giratina, otherwise, it requires SR and 2 layers of Spikes to have a chance at a sweep, while EK can sweep an entire team with just SR.
I really want a sweeping set, but nothing really screams "Rayquaza" for me without being out-classed, or feeling like a glorified Salamence.
Ideas?
I'm seeing that no-one prepares for suicide lead Deoxys-S any more. Sure, Team Preview lets you put something that can beat it in the lead spot, but I see so many teams that don't pack a Pokemon to stop Deoxys-S setting up a layer of Stealth Rock and Spikes full stop. Even then, it's almost guaranteed at least one layer since Magic Coat, Magic Bounce and Prankster Taunt is generally non-existant.
cya with my Sableye team c:
But yeah, not even Scarf Timid Palkia outruns Max Speed Deoxys-S, and I'm pretty sure Deoxys can take a Spacial Rend or something like that, and get a first layer of Spikes after getting SR up on the field.
added the usage of all ghost types appearing the the Ubers Stats the total percentage is 42.604%, however the total of just Giratina-A, Giratina-O, and Arceus-Ghost is 36.199% so more than 6% almost 6.5% are throwaways (about 2.5% of it is Gengar, there are some Sableye, Froslass, Shedinja, Spiritomb, and Golurk) but yah most of the Spinners all but need a Pokemon with Pursuit to be reliable in more than seven of every twenty battles.
I'm going to make a thread about something that is really disturbing.
I was able to crack the top 15 in ubers in just a few battles by abusing Normal Arceus + Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S with Focus Sash and Magic Coat guarentees me SR and 1 layer of Spikes. Arceus is just tooooooo broken.
I was able to crack the top 15 in ubers in just a few battles by abusing Normal Arceus + Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S with Focus Sash and Magic Coat guarentees me SR and 1 layer of Spikes. Arceus is just tooooooo broken.
Tbh Smogon's Uber ladder under 1380 isn't the best thing in the world. Players usually tend to use weird shit or don't know how to use a poke properly. The ladder itself isn't that active, so i'm not surprised you got that high quickly.
Deo-S + SDQuaza sounds better :P
Doesn't give a shit about Giratina, can easily burn the Steels with Fire Miss, and he's faking cool. Groudon and Scarf Dragons might still give you trouble though.
lead giratina O can reduce it down to 1 layer via dragon claw + Shadow sneak, which should kill pure hazard users. If its using reflect then its probably going to get both screens up no matter what you do.
Giratina-O usually Runs Outrage over Claw and Dragon Tail Ahead of Outrage, though IIRC Sneak is a 2HKO anyway. If it is a Screener there is DT to keep the Recipient away.
shrang's SubClaws Zekrom vs. Ferrothorn has been extremely effective, as long as it avoids Leech Seed it is guaranteed a Sub and potentially a few Hone Claws boosts from Ferrothorn. The only real problem is that Dragon Claw is weak while Outrage locks you in, so if opponent has a Groudon unless you're happy with sacrificing Zekrom all you can do is switch out (although I have swept one team because I used Hone Claws on the switch and then Groudon went for Stealth Rock as I used Outrage).
Dialga has been proving to be a mad Pokemon. It has so many sets and so many possible attacks. Lugia can handle most Dialga sets, but it can barely scratch Dialga in return, and stuff like Thunder / Thunder Wave can easily paralyze Lugia. Although Pressure drains PP fast, a crit or full paralysis can make Lugia lose. Not to mention Lugia doesn't stop Dialga from using its support moves. Dragon-typing without Ice and Dragon weakness is awesome, too.
Darkrai is awesome. If you apply enough offensive pressure then without a SleepTalker or Manaphy in rain or Primeape or something like that you essentially have an 80% accurate OHKO move. Unfortunately it's not a very powerful sweeper and it's easily revenge killed, but wtf, it's got an 80% accurate OHKO move. Ftw!
Manaphy appears quite underprepared for. It's not easy to OHKO with Wacan or Calm Mind, and its speed is above the base 90 tier. With many teams forced to use choiced Thunders, you can go to an electric resist or immunity for free setup afterwards, and then bring Manaphy back in later on a slower opponent to Rest back to full health. That said, it's not very strong. I just found out 0 SpA +6 Scald in the rain fails to 2HKO Chansey (although Chansey can't do anything back, my opponent that game insisted he would've won without me critting another Pokemon earlier -__-).
Still have to try Shaymin-S and Ho-oh (and Thundurus and Excadrill and Rayquaza and ...).
Dialga has been proving to be a mad Pokemon. It has so many sets and so many possible attacks. Lugia can handle most Dialga sets, but it can barely scratch Dialga in return, and stuff like Thunder / Thunder Wave can easily paralyze Lugia. Although Pressure drains PP fast, a crit or full paralysis can make Lugia lose. Not to mention Lugia doesn't stop Dialga from using its support moves. Dragon-typing without Ice and Dragon weakness is awesome, too.
Darkrai is awesome. If you apply enough offensive pressure then without a SleepTalker or Manaphy in rain or Primeape or something like that you essentially have an 80% accurate OHKO move. Unfortunately it's not a very powerful sweeper and it's easily revenge killed, but wtf, it's got an 80% accurate OHKO move. Ftw!
Manaphy appears quite underprepared for. It's not easy to OHKO with Wacan or Calm Mind, and its speed is above the base 90 tier. With many teams forced to use choiced Thunders, you can go to an electric resist or immunity for free setup afterwards, and then bring Manaphy back in later on a slower opponent to Rest back to full health. That said, it's not very strong. I just found out 0 SpA +6 Scald in the rain fails to 2HKO Chansey (although Chansey can't do anything back, my opponent that game insisted he would've won without me critting another Pokemon earlier -__-).
Still have to try Shaymin-S and Ho-oh (and Thundurus and Excadrill and Rayquaza and ...).
Zekrom gets Bolt Strike, and +1 Bolt Strike does about 45% to Ferrothorn, so why even Outrage it. You do more damage and aren't locked to a move.
Lucia loses to Dialga most of the time. Thunder is just too good. Plus the fact Doalga is part Steel and cannot be poisoned it's gonna be a rough time for Lugia to take t down without CM.
And Darkrai doesn't get an OHKO move sorry.
Manaphy is a total monster I agree, but I a metagame that is prepared for Kyogres, I honestly wouldn't expect a team that wouldn't be able to take on Manaphy. Yet, it's definitely a little boss.
Lucia loses to Dialga most of the time. Thunder is just too good. Plus the fact Doalga is part Steel and cannot be poisoned it's gonna be a rough time for Lugia to take t down without CM.
And Darkrai doesn't get an OHKO move sorry.
Manaphy is a total monster I agree, but I a metagame that is prepared for Kyogres, I honestly wouldn't expect a team that wouldn't be able to take on Manaphy. Yet, it's definitely a little boss.
He went to Groudon as I Sub'ed, I used Hone Claws as he broke the Sub and then Outrage next. That turn he went for SR, so Groudon was 2HKOed.
Thunder only kills Lugia if it's raining, and Lugia can be faster and so Roost on it. Problem is the full paralysis. And Lugia can Whirlwind / Dragon Tail, so it doesn't lose most of the time.
Guess what Darkrai's OHKO move is? :)
Manaphy has three things over Kyogre: Tail Glow's +3 SpA, Hydration + Rest and base 100 speed. It's not the same as preparing for Kyogre. Simple example would be a slower Pokemon using Thunder on Manaphy. It can CM, and then Rest, and then CM, and then Rest, and you can't hope for the paralysis. Scarf Thunder doesn't OHKO Manaphy usually, so it can Rest to scout, see it is slower and deduce it's Scarfed, and then go to Electric resist. Grass Knot doesn't hurt Manaphy at all while ravishing Kyogre, Wacan + Tail Glow defends against Thunder (most common anti-Manaphy move), etc.
Does SkarmBliss work in Ubers? I've not tried it, but at the moment Skarmory looks rather under-utilized, and the best partners to Skarmory look like the pink blobs (can also scout Dialga sets without instantly dying).
Thunder only kills Lugia if it's raining, and Lugia can be faster and so Roost on it. Problem is the full paralysis. And Lugia can Whirlwind / Dragon Tail, so it doesn't lose most of the time.
Guess what Darkrai's OHKO move is? :)
Manaphy has three things over Kyogre: Tail Glow's +3 SpA, Hydration + Rest and base 100 speed. It's not the same as preparing for Kyogre. Simple example would be a slower Pokemon using Thunder on Manaphy. It can CM, and then Rest, and then CM, and then Rest, and you can't hope for the paralysis. Scarf Thunder doesn't OHKO Manaphy usually, so it can Rest to scout, see it is slower and deduce it's Scarfed, and then go to Electric resist. Grass Knot doesn't hurt Manaphy at all while ravishing Kyogre, Wacan + Tail Glow defends against Thunder (most common anti-Manaphy move), etc.
Does SkarmBliss work in Ubers? I've not tried it, but at the moment Skarmory looks rather under-utilized, and the best partners to Skarmory look like the pink blobs (can also scout Dialga sets without instantly dying).
On SkarmBliss.
Yes, yes and yes.
SkarmBliss is oddly successful in Ubers long as you have something extremely powerful to immediately switch back to for a offense when needed and something to handle Kyogre who doesn't mind the combo at all. In fact I've also seen Rain Dish Tentacruel who lives far longer than it should do with Kyogre rain support used to great success as a Toxic Spike support as well.
However I wouldn't pass up SkarmChansey, that fatblob is even bulkier than Bliss and actually has a slight chance of surviving random physical attacks. Its your choice though how much you value Lefties recovery however. But take this into account, Modest LO Mewtwo Aura Spheres are only 29-34% and its STAB Psystrikes are 49-58% on a standard 252/252 Bold Chansey, even being able to take a attack and not instantly die is something.
Not that you should do that considering the risk of CM on Mewtwo but it shows you the ridiculous phenomenal bulk on both sides of a Evolite Chansey.
Yes, yes and yes.
SkarmBliss is oddly successful in Ubers long as you have something extremely powerful to immediately switch back to for a offense when needed and something to handle Kyogre who doesn't mind the combo at all. In fact I've also seen Rain Dish Tentacruel who lives far longer than it should do with Kyogre rain support used to great success as a Toxic Spike support as well.
However I wouldn't pass up SkarmChansey, that fatblob is even bulkier than Bliss and actually has a slight chance of surviving random physical attacks. Its your choice though how much you value Lefties recovery however. But take this into account, Modest LO Mewtwo Aura Spheres are only 29-34% and its STAB Psystrikes are 49-58% on a standard 252/252 Bold Chansey, even being able to take a attack and not instantly die is something.
Not that you should do that considering the risk of CM on Mewtwo but it shows you the ridiculous phenomenal bulk on both sides of a Evolite Chansey.
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