Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[Pikachu315111]

I'm kinda surprised they didn't wait until World Championships to announce the bottle caps.
I wonder what we are getting during World Championships.

I'd imagine the possible reactions might have been why they didn't:

Cheers.
Tears.
"Finally my in-game team, shinies, and Legendaries will be competitive!"
"So coming Sun & Moon all the time I spent on breeding will have gone to waste!"
"Finally my friends and family who don't compete competitively will finally have a chance to!"
"Your making the games too casual, you're gonna ruin the metagame!"

And the GF/TPC representative who made the announcement would go to a backroom and cry.

As for what they'll show off, they usually just show off new Pokemon, nothing that major. Would be a nice time to show off any new Megas (or at least confirm there aren't any). Ooh, maybe Alolan version of popular metagame Pokemon.

 

[SkyknightMu]

Now that I think about it, in conjunction with my last post, I'm wondering if the Lotto will be changed to be the primary Bottle Cap source, although this would require Bottle Caps to be good for more than Hyper Training (not everyone will have the resolve to get critters to L100!). Two digits gets you a Bronze Cap, four digits a Silver Cap, six digits (which we now have) a Gold Cap.

(Or would this make Silver Caps TOO rare?)

 

[Karxrida]

I don't see why GF would make getting Bottle Caps such a chore, as they're supposed to be a quality-of-life change that's solely for postgame use. I don't expect them to be easy to get a hold of, but doing something like making Caps mostly tied to the lottery sounds counterproductive to their intended purpose.

 

[EsurioXY]

Two massive, but less obvious, upsides to Hyper Training that I see are that Hidden Power is way easier to get

See the recent VJump video shows a silver bottle cap being used on three different Garchomps to max all of their attack IVs. They then suggest that a gold one might exist and raise multiple stats. But no mention of bronze ones which makes me worry about the incremental ability of these bottle caps. This means that niche strategies like HP tailoring might still require breeding.

 

[SkyknightMu]

If the only way for IVs to go is straight to 31, then I doubt Hidden Power will remain coupled to them. If they do remain coupled, then I expect Bronze Caps to be a reality, and only amplify one stat by 1 as postulated before.

The preferable route between the two is probably to uncouple them, and thus make Hidden Power Fairy a reality. (Granted that the real best outcome is both uncoupling and allowing IVs to be zeroed for defusing confusion/Foul Play and working with Trick Room...)

 

[QuickBH]

I'd imagine the possible reactions might have been why they didn't:

As for what they'll show off, they usually just show off new Pokemon, nothing that major. Would be a nice time to show off any new Megas (or at least confirm there aren't any). Ooh, maybe Alolan version of popular metagame Pokemon.

Why would they show off Alolan forms of popular metagame Pokemon? It seems they've been doing the opposite lately. Minus maybe Raichu, I've not seen any of these Alolan forms used in VGCs, or actually at all, discounting Raichu.

 

[CTNC]

See the recent VJump video shows a silver bottle cap being used on three different Garchomps to max all of their attack IVs. They then suggest that a gold one might exist and raise multiple stats. But no mention of bronze ones which makes me worry about the incremental ability of these bottle caps. This means that niche strategies like HP tailoring might still require breeding.

For Soft Resetting, you can still take whatever has the required imperfect IVs and perfect the rest, therefore making it easier. For my plan with breeding, which might be a waste of Bottle Caps, I'm going to try to ask for a 30/30/30/30/30/30 Ditto. If there's no 31s, then the IV checker will tell me which stats are 30s. For the other stats, Bottle Cap. If the Caps cost BP, then I might as well have Infinite Caps.

For speculation on if Hyper Training can change Hidden Power, my guess is that it won't.

 

[Project_Mars]

Bottle caps could also be limited in number. In that case they would be valuable for a few shinies and legendaries, but the linited quantity would mean IV breeding isnt entirely obsolete.

Honestly: if they are limited or slightly annoying to get then I would stick to IV breeding anyways. Especially if getting to 100 takes awhile too.

 

[Kurona]

Why would they show off Alolan forms of popular metagame Pokemon? It seems they've been doing the opposite lately. Minus maybe Raichu, I've not seen any of these Alolan forms used in VGCs, or actually at all, discounting Raichu.

Because it'd be a reveal at the World Championships

 

[Project_Mars]

Because it'd be a reveal at the World Championships

Like MegaKhan... And look how that turned out.

Then again there wasn't a reveal at last year's Worlds, so they could not show anything.

 

[LastFootnote]

Like MegaKhan... And look how that turned out.

Man, who could have foreseen that an ability giving +50% damage and two triggers of added effects would turn out to be broken? There's just no way GameFreak could have known that.

 

[hotdogturtle]

IV-decreasing Bottlecaps should be Rusty ones, heh... GF knows that the only reason for minimizing IVs is for Hidden Power/Trick Room speed/lowering Confusion damage. Most casual players would not understand why you'd want to lower an IV so they'd ignore the Rusty bottlecaps or call them a joke item, but they'd still have situational use for competitive battlers. I could see GF throwing them in since they don't entirely ignore the battling community anymore.

The way I see it happening is that "Bronze" bottlecaps or whatever they're called would be common and easy to farm. They'd be the equivalent of Wings in gen 5 and would boost an IV by 1. That way it would still be less efficient than breeding perfect Pokemon on your own, but it would be enough that you could spend a small collection to patch up imperfect legends or shinies. The Silver one, which boosts one stat directly to 31, would be semi-rare as a convenience item over using multiple Bronzes. Think like the PP Max compared to PP Up. The Gold one would be Master Ball-level rare, but would boost all 6 stats to 31.

Speaking of PP Max, I expect that bottlecaps will be one of the items that you can find with the Pickup ability. That sounds semi-realistic (as far as literally finding them) and also gives a way to obtain infinite numbers of them.

 

[Lady Vader]

Hmm, I'm not going to lie, I don't like the sound of hyper training at all. Heck, by next gen all Pokemon will just be 6IV at the rate this is going... Although it will be nice if you breed an ~almost perfect shiny cause then it's not worthless.

This is officially the oddest complaint I've seen in relationship to Pokémon.

I don't know, it just makes getting battle ready Pokemon feel cheap to me. It probably won't be a big deal though. I assume getting these bottle caps will be very difficult to obtain, considering what they do.

Again, odd. I'm fine with lowering the cost of entry. Getting the best 'mons shouldn't be a chore. After all, in the end, the battle should come down to skill.

I don't see how it matters if your pokemon is "artificial." I get that breeders are upset that now anyone can get perfect ivs, but honestly it really shouldn't matter how "impressed" other people are of your work. Tbh the way you're referring to hyper trained pokemon as "artificial" just sounds elitist. Breeding shouldn't grant you any validation. At the end of the day, most people just want perfect ivs for competitive battling, and they're most likely not gonna care how the pokemon got those ivs. Sorry you feel like your work went to waste, but hyper training is just better. But hey, no one is forcing you to hyper train, so just do you. That's the cool thing about pokemon. There is no wrong way to play.

I think part of it in this particular case wasn't elitist, more about how hacked perfect Shinies will be less obvious.

I'm getting the feeling that the Silver Bottle Cap coming with Magearna is basically a taste of power in intent. A way to whet players' whistles for in-game Bottle Cap hunting. (Not that I have any idea what kind of Bottle Cap would let you decrease someone's IV by any amount. Lead Bottle Cap?) But I'm wondering if the demonstration with that Pikachu (i.e. all stats going up at once) might itself signify the existence of a Gold Bottle Cap.

My personal suspicions...

Bronze Bottle Caps: +1-+5 (not random, just likely to be somewhere on that spectrum) to one stat. About as easy to find as Heart Scales on the beach.
Lead Bottle Caps: -1 to one stat if Hidden Power will be affected, -1--5 otherwise (or maybe even zero outright, but that should increase rarity). More difficult to find, but not by much. The idea is not to flood anybody with such specialized caps.
Silver Bottle Caps: As seen, maximize one stat. Still more difficult to find.
Gold Bottle Caps: Maximize all stats at once. Strictly a lotto prize.

Personally, I'm hoping there isn't some IAP map or the like necessary to get at Bottle Caps (think in terms of, say, the grinding maps in Shin Megami Tensei IV)...

Yeah, that sounds about right. I don't think that the Gold Bottle Caps will be strictly a lotto prize. There might be a few, fixed location Gold Caps (more than Master Balls, fewer than Elixers) along side something similar to getting Master Balls from the PokéMilage Club, though that isn't guaranteed. Also, it will definitely be part of Events in the future, though the Silver Cap will likely be far more common.
Hey, do we know what people get if they get that two pack similar to ORAS?

IV-decreasing Bottlecaps should be Rusty ones, heh... GF knows that the only reason for minimizing IVs is for Hidden Power/Trick Room speed/lowering Confusion damage. Most casual players would not understand why you'd want to lower an IV so they'd ignore the Rusty bottlecaps or call them a joke item, but they'd still have situational use for competitive battlers. I could see GF throwing them in since they don't entirely ignore the battling community anymore.

The way I see it happening is that "Bronze" bottlecaps or whatever they're called would be common and easy to farm. They'd be the equivalent of Wings in gen 5 and would boost an IV by 1. That way it would still be less efficient than breeding perfect Pokemon on your own, but it would be enough that you could spend a small collection to patch up imperfect legends or shinies. The Silver one, which boosts one stat directly to 31, would be semi-rare as a convenience item over using multiple Bronzes. Think like the PP Max compared to PP Up. The Gold one would be Master Ball-level rare, but would boost all 6 stats to 31.

Speaking of PP Max, I expect that bottlecaps will be one of the items that you can find with the Pickup ability. That sounds semi-realistic (as far as literally finding them) and also gives a way to obtain infinite numbers of them.

Again, sounds about right.

 

[Norne]

As a breeder and someone who went through hell breeding volt tackle + hp ice + ha on Pikachu my life would have been easier if I had IV altering.

So yes I'm all in, anything that works as an anti frustration mechanic in gaming is welcomed and I respect GF for acknowledging ivs to this extent.

I never gave two cucumbers for shiny pokemon after completing a shiny living dex in Pt, so I guess it could help the shiny lovers to not dump mediocre mons. That counts as a plus...i guess.

It won't make your non HA mediocre starter without eggmoves and a neutral nature competitive though.

 

[Retro64]

Like MegaKhan... And look how that turned out.

Then again there wasn't a reveal at last year's Worlds, so they could not show anything.

There was no new main game to hype up last year during Worlds. It's probably safe to assume they'll have something new to reveal now. Probably just a singular pokemon.

 

[Lady Vader]

It won't make your non HA mediocre starter without eggmoves and a neutral nature competitive though.

To be fair, not every starter needs its HA (Mega Charizard, Mega Sceptile, Swampert, the Sinnoh Starters, Delphox). And not all use Egg moves (Mega Charizard-Y). The nature is still a problem, though.

 

[QuickBH]

To be fair, not every starter needs its HA (Mega Charizard, Mega Sceptile, Swampert, the Sinnoh Starters, Delphox). And not all use Egg moves (Mega Charizard-Y). The nature is still a problem, though.

Hehe! All those years of soft resetting to get a right nature for my starter has finally paid off.

Naive natured Infernape I've been saving since Platinum for the win!

 

[Count Bleck]

Like MegaKhan... And look how that turned out.

Then again there wasn't a reveal at last year's Worlds, so they could not show anything.

Nintendo already announced they would announce something during worlds.

 

[Norne]

Hehe! All those years of soft resetting to get a right nature for my starter has finally paid off.

Naive natured Infernape I've been saving since Platinum for the win!

Now that you mention it, I actually have a 4iv shiny Naive infernape I RNG on DP. This might mean PINKY is back in business!

 

[Sirya]

IV Breeding can not be obsolete by any way, no matter how Bottle Caps work. It's no joke, nor is an exageration. By the time you raise your Pokémon to level 100, even by the time you adquire one single of those Caps, I already have breed, at least, 20 perfect Pokémon in less than 10 minutes (by perfect, I mean 5 perfect IVs, which is normaly the standard). Bottle Caps aren't substitutes for breeding, they are niche suplementaries for those creatures in which IV Breeding doesn't work. Say legendaries, for example, Pokémon prior to Gen VI where 5 perfect IVs without RNG Abuse was unthinkable --at least not in mass as you can obtain them in VI Gen without any effort or time expend--, or various Shiny Pokémon you may have with a bad IV in an important stat. I, for example, have a 31/X/31/31/31/X Shiny Protean Greninja, so I'd like to change its Spe. IV.

 

[viperGTS]

Lol at the people complaining at the new IV-altering mechanic. Who gives a rats behind if it lowers (artificially, mind you) the "value" of a flawless pokemon. Competitive battlers don't give a damn, all we want are ways to make obtaining flawless pokemon easier. And, as Sirya mentioned, this doesn't replace breeding at all; hell, i'll still be breeding over using this mechanic 90% of the time. The other 10% is for SRing events and legends that I've left untouched in my XYORAS games for over 2 years (and future SuMo legends) because I've never wanted to bother SRing them for perfection. With this mechanic, I can worry much less about the IVs later and just enjoy catching the damn thing (natures aren't as terrible to reset for).

 

[Inai10]

Bottle Caps could just cost a ridiculous amount of BP depending on the grade. My heart shrinks every time I have to buy an ability capsule, so I can only imagine having to buy several of these to use on a single pokemon (or several imports that need a fix). This alone would probably keep me breeding for near flawless pokemon every time just so I wouldn't have to sink so much BP, at least till I got my Battle Facility groove up and running.

The Pick Up idea seems pretty plausible too.

 

[Lady Vader]

Bottle Caps could just cost a ridiculous amount of BP depending on the grade. My heart shrinks every time I have to buy an ability capsule, so I can only imagine having to buy several of these to use on a single pokemon (or several imports that need a fix). This alone would probably keep me breeding for near flawless pokemon every time just so I wouldn't have to sink so much BP, at least till I got my Battle Facility groove up and running.

The Pick Up idea seems pretty plausible too.

If they did that, the still theoretical Bronze Cap would likely be no more than 16 (with 10 being more likely and 2 not impossible), Silver will likely be 48, and Gold might be 200.

 

[QuickBH]

If they did that, the still theoretical Bronze Cap would likely be no more than 16 (with 10 being more likely and 2 not impossible), Silver will likely be 48, and Gold might be 200.

Well, gold should be like 80 BP with your math. Nobody would have any incentive to buy golds if you can just spend 98 BP to have all your IVs maxed.

 

[CTNC]

Well, gold should be like 80 BP with your math. Nobody would have any incentive to buy golds if you can just spend 98 BP to have all your IVs maxed.

He guessed that Bronze might cost 16 at most if they exist and Silver would be 48. You would need to improve 4 stats for gold to be close enough to be worth it in that case.


By the way, I highly doubt that my sister is a reliable source, but she said that Alola Voltorb is a Coconut.