Does partial trapping still interrupt the opponent? If so, are you considering removing that effect?
Partial trapping still functions exactly the same as it did in vanilla RBY, preventing opponents from attacking but allowing switching. The main issue with it in vanilla RBY play is that it essentially wastes up to 64 turns because you have to pp stall the move with each switch. However, reducing the PP of trapping moves to 8 as well as the max trap duration to 3 turns (as opposed to 5) does a few things.Does partial trapping still interrupt the opponent? If so, are you considering removing that effect?
My question becomes simple: why not buff the accuracy to 100%? It'd make them more reliable but not OP. A niche move in fact, but one that does not rely on luck to be effective.Partial trapping still functions exactly the same as it did in vanilla RBY, preventing opponents from attacking but allowing switching. The main issue with it in vanilla RBY play is that it essentially wastes up to 64 turns because you have to pp stall the move with each switch. However, reducing the PP of trapping moves to 8 as well as the max trap duration to 3 turns (as opposed to 5) does a few things.
1) It pretty much kills partial trapping sweep potential
2) It doesn't unreasonably prolong the game because it takes 8 turns to deplete the move
To slightly compensate these heavy nerfs, the moves have a small increase in base power. These trap moves are now best used as a pivoting tool as opposed to an obnoxious sweeping option. Essentially, they're the closest you'll get to U-turn or Volt Switch now. They're still inaccurate and gimmicky like in vanilla play, but now they contribute much more healthily to the metagame than before. There currently aren't any considerations to outright remove these effects from the metagame.
I mostly agree with this and personally think accuracy's only purpose is forcing players to think twice before spamming an overpowered move. In this particular format, the only moves that have any business being less than 100% accurate are attacks with more than 90 BP and no drawbacks (ie not hyper beam or submission), and moves that cause sleep, paralysis, or confusion. If moves like hyper beam or hyper fang would be broken with 100% accuracy, then I'd rather lower their BP while still raising their accuracy. In addition to wrap-like moves, I think these moves should have 100% accuracy (suggested BP in parentheses):This specific question is connected to a broader one: why not boost the accuracy of most moves? I do believe a competitive metagame should get rid of as much RNG as possible. You buffed toxic for example but didn't fix the atrocious game design (from a competitive standpoint) of 90/95 accuracy moves.
This entire proposal boils down to one topic: the handling of risk-reward.My question becomes simple: why not buff the accuracy to 100%? It'd make them more reliable but not OP. A niche move in fact, but one that does not rely on luck to be effective.
This specific question is connected to a broader one: why not boost the accuracy of most moves? I do believe a competitive metagame should get rid of as much RNG as possible. You buffed toxic for example but didn't fix the atrocious game design (from a competitive standpoint) of 90/95 accuracy moves.
This project is extremely interesting (even though I'm probably never gonna play, I love the theoretical approach to metagame balancing), so I'll probably give my unrequired input from time to time on different matters.
Regarding removing miss rate altogether for the sake of "competitiveness", this is a concept that is deserving of an entire pet mod dedicated for itself. Removing crucial aspects of Pokemon for the sake of lowering risk-reward isn't inherently a bad thing, but it's also not inherently good either and requires drastic rebalancing, as well as starting a slippery slope.I mostly agree with this and personally think accuracy's only purpose is forcing players to think twice before spamming an overpowered move. In this particular format, the only moves that have any business being less than 100% accurate are attacks with more than 90 BP and no drawbacks (ie not hyper beam or submission), and moves that cause sleep, paralysis, or confusion. If moves like hyper beam or hyper fang would be broken with 100% accuracy, then I'd rather lower their BP while still raising their accuracy. In addition to wrap-like moves, I think these moves should have 100% accuracy (suggested BP in parentheses):
hyper beam (135 BP), rock slide (75 BP), pin missile (25 BP), razor leaf, sky attack (130 BP), toxic, hyper fang (120 BP), submission, karate chop
What did I ever do to imply that I wanted a completely haxless mod? I already said that I think miss rates sometimes have purpose and improve the game, and that strong attacks should miss sometimes if they have no other drawbacks. Why can't we remove only the hax that doesn't improve anything, like how you already removed the universal 255/256 accuracy? More specifically, what's wrong with making hyper beam 100% accurate if we lower its BP to compensate?Regarding removing miss rate altogether for the sake of "competitiveness", this is a concept that is deserving of an entire pet mod dedicated for itself. Removing crucial aspects of Pokemon for the sake of lowering risk-reward isn't inherently a bad thing, but it's also not inherently good either and requires drastic rebalancing, as well as starting a slippery slope.
For example, removing miss rates for the sake of neutralizing risk-reward would also mean that crit rate should be removed for the sake of decreasing risk-reward level discrepancies. But once you do this, how do you check Amnesia or Reflect users? No items and increased overall bulk means it would be much harder to break something like Amnesia Slowbro without the use of crit rate in gen 1, making a would-be check like Tbolt Starmie setup fodder. Well it's simple, let's ban or nerf Amnesia and Reflect right? That's doable, but now Pokemon like Slowbro and Dewgong are left significantly weaker or nicheless. So you rebalance them, sure. But without crit rate, some faster Pokemon like Jolteon and Tauros lose a lot of cleaning/wallbreaking potential. Let's rebalance them. Additionally, moves that always crit wouldn't work anymore so Pokemon like Persian, Pinsir, and Kingler lose their niches. Let's rebalance them then. Do all these nerfs to attacks make specific walls too powerful? Does this make metagame interactions more diverse? Most importantly, is the metagame in a better place than where we started? We're not sure. Things might have less risk-reward disparity, but that's not necessarily what defines a good game. Diversity, matchup spreads, and centralization are among the biggest factors of a healthy Pokemon metagame. Increasing consistency alone does not guarantee those three hugely important traits.
You didn't imply that a haxless mod is what you want. However, the changes that were proposed set that precedent and that's what is more important here. Once I use an argument as generally sweeping as "removing hax that doesn't improve anything" to justify a metagame change, a lot more is fair game to implement as a consequence. This includes critical hits, as I could technically argue to just nerf everything related to critical hits to compensate for the loss of the mechanic and say "see? we don't need critical hits!" But again, it's a convoluted attempt at a solution for a problem that doesn't even practically exist, and all this does is push the meta further from a "buffed gen 1 OU mod" and more into something else.What did I ever do to imply that I wanted a completely haxless mod? I already said that I think miss rates sometimes have purpose and improve the game, and that strong attacks should miss sometimes if they have no other drawbacks. Why can't we remove only the hax that doesn't improve anything, like how you already removed the universal 255/256 accuracy? More specifically, what's wrong with making hyper beam 100% accurate if we lower its BP to compensate?
Also I take back the 25 BP pin missile suggestion. 20 BP seems more reasonable, so people use it over leech life only if they hate substitutes.
I think you're quoting me out of context. I never said anything intended to mean that hax never improves anything. This is the full sentence.Besides, you're saying that "miss rates sometimes have purpose and improve the game" but also don't "improve anything". Which point are you arguing?
ie. I think hax is sometimes bad and can be removed in, and only in, those cases.Why can't we remove only the hax that doesn't improve anything, like how you already removed the universal 255/256 accuracy?
Gen 1 is significantly bulkier on the special side than physical, and the Hyper Fang has drawbacks as harsh as Hyper Beam. It is also only distributed on 3 dragon Pokemon which do not have a way to boost their special, while having no more than 100 base special stats. If it proves to be too strong then it can always be toned down, which requires playtesting. At the moment, the move is sufficiently handled by the metagame's natural bulk and offensive pressure against these 3 dragon types and this can be observed by playing the format.I think you're quoting me out of context. I never said anything intended to mean that hax never improves anything. This is the full sentence. ie. I think hax is sometimes bad and can be removed in, and only in, those cases.
Now that you've explained why you're not changing hyper beam, are you going to make hyper fang 100% accurate? Hyper fang is not broken at all in standard RBY, but unlike hyper beam, hyper fang is healthy only because it's completely useless. This mod changed hyper fang in a way that might break it. (it's literally a stronger draco meteor in a format with more mixed attackers and less steel) So why not change it in a way that's less likely to be broken? Is there a clear reason to give it 140 base power instead of 120?
I don't believe miss chances are a good drawback. It doesn't really make the move choice meaningful in any way. If it's strong i'm gonna use it and hope to have an ideal 100% hit rate. No one who uses an 80%+ accuracy moves plays around the miss because it would be dumb to do so.This entire proposal boils down to one topic: the handling of risk-reward.
People definitely do play around the miss when using a move with 80+ accuracy, I don’t get where this idea that people don’t comes from.I don't believe miss chances are a good drawback. It doesn't really make the move choice meaningful in any way. If it's strong i'm gonna use it and hope to have an ideal 100% hit rate. No one who uses an 80%+ accuracy moves plays around the miss because it would be dumb to do so.
I do believe a good way to balance the risk-reward connection would be to play with PPs, something the main series never even dares to do except in rare cares. This mostly comes from the fact that pokemon games are, at their core, made for casual gameplay, which means having low PPs would make backtracking to a pokemon center a tedious and repetitive activity.
But here on the simulator, we can change this. I'm drastically in favor of a general harsh nerfs to PPs. No move should have more than 16, ideally (except terrible ones who don't really matter at all in the grand scheme of things). I shouldn't (and most of the times I don't) choose based on accuracy but on PPs.
What I'm trying to say is, PPs should become the real trade-off between a strong attack (or status move) and a lesser strong one. Not accuracy, since it just encourages coinflips and removes agency from the player. I have no control over whether my move misses or not.
I think it would be better if you let Tangela learn amnesia. Amnesia Tangela has already been shown to work in tradebacks.- Constrict now has 85 bp, 100% chance to drop speed 1 stage
Tangela needed a buff that made it unique from other grass types outside of typing differences, it was rather lacking compared to them. Buffing Constrict gives Tangela a unique way to guarantee status by slowing opponents down first while chipping them down a bit. Tentacruel, the only other learner of the move, already has decent 4mss but this gives it another dimension in tandem with Swords Dance for sweeping.[/hide]
type changes and learnsets!Been a long time, but me and Petuuuhhh are working on a new gen 1 mod called Kantonification. All pokemon from every generation ever will be playable in the gen 1 format. The biggest changes include:
- Movepools will be dumbed down to moves that exist in gen 1
- Fairy and Dark types are converted to Normal
- Steel type is converted to Rock
- Special is universally calculated by averaging special attack and special defense
You can find all the newly calculated stats along with some WIP sample sets in this spreadsheet here.
The metagame is playable at rby809.herokuapp.com
If you're interested, give it a look! Your favourites are potentially a lot more viable here.