Forretress (QC 0/1)

[Omastar68]

[SET]

name: Defensive Support
move 1: Body Press
move 2: Stealth Rock/ Toxic Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch / Iron Defense/ Rapid Spin
move 4: Gyro Ball / Rock Blast / Earthquake
item: Rocky Helmet / Red Card / Loaded Dice
ability: Sturdy/ Overcoat
nature: Relaxed/ Impish
tera type: Water / Fighting / Rock
evs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

*Forretress's abilities and good supportive movepool make it a good setter of hazards that either ignores Spore from the likes of Breloom, or lives Fissures from the likes of Dondozo.

* *Body Press*: With or without Iron Defence, Body Press should be used to deal large damage to Kingambit.

* **Stealth Rock vs. Toxic Spikes**: Stealth Rock is generally more useful, but Toxic Spikes can disrupt defensive cores, and are higher risk for potentially more reward,

* **Rock Blast**: Rock Blast is an option with Loaded Dice, because of Iron Moth switch-ins. Earthquake has full accuracy, however, and is even stronger vs. Iron Moth while hitting Gholdengo.

Abilities
========

Sturdy is preferred due to the nature of setting hazards and Forretress's good nomally good match up with users of OHKO mives , however Overcoat is an option for Breloom. However, Forretress will no longer survive fire moves without tera if running Overcoat.

[OTHER OPTIONS]

Tera Types
========

Tera Dependency - Very Situational: Due to Sturdy, a hazard setting Forretress rarely needs to Tera. However, resisting certain moves means it's still sometimes useful.

* **Water**: A Water Tera type resists fire, notably Tera Fire from Breloom if running Overcaot, while also being a good defensive type in general.

* **Fighting**: A Fighting-type Tera increases the damage output of Body Press, making Forretress even better vs. Chien-Pao and Kingambit.

* **Rock**: A Rock-type Tera gives Forretress the ability to OHKO Iron Moth with Loaded Dice Rock Blast, and should only be used with Loaded Dice.

Items
========

* **Rocky Helmet**: Although Forretress lacks its own recovery, a Rocky Helmet still goes well with Forretress's high physical bulk.

* **Red Card**: Red Card makes it harder to set up on Forretress, and is particularly effective with Toxic Spikes.

* **Loaded Dice**: Loaded Dice are necessary if using Rock Blast.

* **Mental Herb**:Mental Herb lets Forretress do its main job vs. users of Taunt, though it sacrifices utility when Taunt is not used on Forretress.

* **Sitrus Berry**: A Sitrus Berry is also acceptable for the extra longevity. This allows Forretress to avoid the 2HKO from an Adamant Band Tera Flying Dragonite using Tera Blast, while also giving it about a 50/50 chance to live two unboosted Shadow Balls from Timid Flutter Mane or Gholdengo .

EV Spreads
========

* **252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD with Impish**: Further bolstering Forretress's great physical bulk with this simple spread is preferred, as Forretress can rely on Sturdy for special attackers. If using Gyro Ball or Volt Switch, a Relaxed nature and a 0 Speed IV is highly recommended.

[SET]
name: Offensive Support
move 1: Pin Missile
move 2: Rock Blast
move 3: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes / Rapid Spin
move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave/ Earthquake
item: Loaded Dice
ability: Sturdy/ Overcoat
nature: Adamant/ Brave
tera type: Rock
evs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

* Loaded Dice Forretress can deal a shocking amount of damage to foes like Iron Moth and the ruinous quartet, provided they do not Tera.

* **Multi-hit moves**: With Loaded Dice, both Pin Missile and Rock Blast are obligatory on this set.

* **Hazards or Rapid Spin**: Offensive Forretress still benefits from setting up and/or removing hazards.

* **Gyro Ball**: Gyro Ball with a Brave nature can deal huge damage to fairies, and is perfectly accurate. In particular it OHKOs Flutter Mane that do not change their type from Fairy.

* **Thunder Wave**: If not using Gyro Ball, Thunder Wave is also an option to support the team.

[OTHER OPTIONS]

* **Counter**: With Sturdy, Counter can surprise a plethora of physical attackers.

* **Ice Spinner**: Ice Spinner is Forretress's best option to damage most Dragon-types.

* **Earthquake**: Earthquake 2hkos Gholdnego, who may try to block Rapid Spin, and OHKOs Iron MOth with full accuracy, which may switch in to absorb Toxic Spikes and try to hit Forretress with a Fire-type move.

Tera Types
========

Tera Dependency - Low: Forretress's great defensive typing and natural bulk mean it only needs to Tera, typically, to protect against its Fire-type weakness.

* **Water**: A Water Tera type grants a fire resistance, while also being a good defensive type all around.

* **Fire**: In addition to a Fire-type resistance, a Fire Tera grants a useful burn immunity.

* **Dragon**: Although a Dragon Tera type introduces several weaknesses, Forretress's default typing resists all of them, and it also resists Palafin's Wave Crash, so it can use Counter on it after Sturdy is broken.

Items
========

* **Loaded Dice** Loaded Dice is use to get the most out of Pin Missile and Rock Blast. While a Life Orb and Stone Edge might be tempting, Forretress lacks a consistently useful physical Bug-type move outside of Pin Missile.

EVs
========

* **252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def**: A simple EV spread to maximize offense and bulk is usually preferred, with a 0 Spe IV and Bravebeing an option if running Gyro Ball. However, some slow mons like Amoongus may no longer be outsped.

* **20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe with Adamant**: With Thunder Wave, this EV spread outspeeds paralyyzed Iron Moth. It also outspeeds up to uninvested Skeledirge, but should only be used with Thunder Wave due to the lack of bulk.

[CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/omastar68.291756/
Quality Checked by:({{}})
Grammar checked by:({{}})

 

[Omastar68]

No idea on EV spreads, just used max/max ones for simplicity. I think an odd HP value is always recommended for SR damage, but I'm not sure if that's relevant enough to put in as I don't think I've seen that. Um, I have a slightly different spreak but it's not relevant with the teras I put in at all. Unsure if Volt Switch can go w/ Brave on the 2nd set(or if that set's good at all as I haven't used it.) I had it in then couldn't think of why, it doesn't hit anybody, maybe not even 4x weaks, though there's just 2. That's the main thing. Fairly confident in the rest.

 

[Theorymon]

Alright time for me to finally check this now that stuff in my life cleared up a bit (the other two will probably come tomorrow). Just a note, I changed the credits syntax since there's a new credits format!

Hazard Setter

I'd totally revamp this set to reflect how they more commonly operate, it can be a bit tricky because Forretress has a shocking amount of options! I'd also make it the first set.

[SET]
name: Defensive Support
move 1: Body Press
move 2: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch / Rapid Spin / Iron Defense
move 4: Gyro Ball / Rock Blast / Rapid Spin
item: Rocky Helmet / Red Card / Loaded Dice
ability: Sturdy / Overcoat
nature: Relaxed / Impish
tera type: Water / Fighting / Rock
evs: 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe

Defensive Support Moves

- Have a bullet point that basically says that Forretress's niche is its pretty unique ability and support movepool.

- Spikes doesn't really work out on Forretress, you're better off comparing Stealth Rock versus Toxic Spikes, with Stealth Rock being useful on more teams, but Toxic Spikes being a pretty rare support move that lets it work well with slow set-up sweepers.

- Body Press really should be on all defensive Forretress, it makes it way less passive and makes it a rare switch-in to Guillotine Kingambit.

- Loaded Dice + Rock Blast is still reasonable just because of doing a ton to Iron Moth switch-ins, especially with Tera rock versus offensive ones.

- I'd make a bullet point comparing Sturdy versus Overcoat. Sturdy is usually by far prefered for absorbing OHKO moves and surviving an insane attack, but Overcoat is really the best hope for Breloom.

Defensive Support Tera Types

I'd avoid bringing up Fire and Dragon, they're not unusable but you usually have better teras to use! Mentioning Grass is fine though.

- Fighting is just for boosting Body Press and messing with Chien-Pao and Kingambit.

- Rock is for giving Tera Rock the ability to OHKO offensive Iron Moth with Loaded Dice Rock Blast.

Defensive Support Items

- We should be focusing on what makes Forretress unique, so I wouldn't talk about Leftovers and Mental Herb. Helmet is super high usage because of the chip damage, I think Red Card needs to be slashed in because it stops Forretress from being easily set up on, and Loaded Dice is just something you use with Rock Blast.

- I do think mentioning Sitrus Berry and Mental Herb in the items section is still fine though, Sitrus Berry is actually even more common than Red Card by a bit!

Offensive

I think we need to veer this towards being a support set too, even offensive Forrtress are all about SOME kind of support!

[SET]
name: Offensive Support
move 1: Pin Missile
move 2: Rock Blast
move 3: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes / Rapid Spin
move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave
item: Loaded Dice
ability: Sturdy
nature: Adamant / Brave
tera type: Rock
evs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk / 4 Def

- Make sure the big selling point to talk about here is that it does a shocking amount of damage with its multihit moves, letting it potentially trade with some big foes like Iron Moth or Chien-Pao if they don't Tera!

- For Gyro Ball, specfically mention Flutter Mane, whose the big target of that move.

- I'd move Counter and Ice Spinner to Other Options, its neat but its pretty hard to fit in. I'd also get rid of Iron Defense and Body Press because that suits the defensive support better.

- I'd outright remove Seed Bomb and Tera Blast, the former is pretty weak outside of the Palafin 2HKO and the latter relies on non Rock Tera types, which doesn't make sense with this set refocus. Forrtress really shouldn't be teraing often anyways.

- This is also probably not the best set to talk about Overcoat, this set is HIGHLY reliant on making good KO trades with the foe, so Sturdy is too important to get rid of.

- This is going to sound insane, but add this optional EV spread: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe with Adamant. This lets Thunder Wave Forretress outspeed paralyzed Iron Moth. ONLY use this with Thunder Wave, it compromises a lot of bulk!

 

[Omastar68]

Ty! Am on phone atm, so just looking for now. Will go on PC soon and change.

I too put Sr on my offensive forretress. Regardless of how it goes for me, I'll put that here too.

EDIT: Should have got most everything. Few explanations I'm hazy on, like Volt Switch, so I didn't attempt those. Are you saying Leftovers is bad on the defensive set, or that people just know if Sitrus is ok then so are Lefties? I just want to double-check that no other tera is ok for Loaded Dice. I like rock w/ the fire resist and Moth thing, bt what I've used are dark(not suggesting this ore or less, though it helps w/ Espathra potentially, funny w/ Pranksters,) Electric(this was w Tera Blast until I thought about it and realized it won't work well on Corv still, good type though,) and Water(mostly happy w/ this, though since rock is so weird generally, and therefore the shards are less valuable, might change.)

2nd EDIT: I was wondering, why fighting tera for Body Press? Cause way back when I did Orthworm, you didn't suggest keeping that in even though I had it there. I probably omitted it just cause of that.

 

[greilmercenary9]

I've fought several Forretress on cart recently, so I can chime in with some help here.

Defensive Support Set:

For the moveset: Iron Defense should be above Rapid Spin, not only due to usage but because it better synergizes with this set's focus. Rapid Spin is reasonable if pairing with a high number of SR weak mons, but I would strongly recommend that it be used alongside Gyro Ball or Earthquake so that Forretress can at least make an effort to combat potential spinblocking from the three Ghosts in the Top 10 (Flutter Mane, Gholdengo, and Mimikyu). Earthquake should also at least get a slash at the end since its actually a better deterant to a Moth switch-in than Rock Blast if using Toxic Spikes, despite admittedly not being as reliable against many other threats. Otherwise this mostly looks good, although I would reorganize the moves as follows:

name: Defensive Support
move 1: Body Press
move 2: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch / Iron Defense / Rapid Spin
move 4: Gyro Ball / Rock Blast / Earthquake

For comments: you need to explain how Forretress is unique: specifically, it's a slower paced supportive mon that either doesn't fear OHKO moves (or OHKOs from stuff like Fire moves from full) with Sturdy or, alternatively, is one of the rare slower paced mons like that doesn't need a Grass Tera to avoid being scared to death of Breloom and Brute Bonnet thanks to Overcoat. Further, since these abilities don't have a display message on entry, opponents have to respect both, which means most opponents will likely avoid using any of that regardless unless they activate one of them or chancing hitting into them is their only Hail Mary to win. Forretress also benefits from a good defensive typing and a slow pivoting move, which in combination with its mastery of hazard control gives it a unique package to work with. You need to be more specific when mentioning these qualities instead of just saying its unique: if I'm the reader, I don't want to see "unique" but then have to guess why.

Stealth Rock vs Toxic Spikes: You need to expand this explanation. Stealth Rock is more generally useful, with 6 of the Top 13 at the time of writing being weak to Rocks and Sash still being fairly common especially on Chien-Pao, plus Spikes of any kind completely miss the #1 mon or anything with Tera Flying. However, in the right matchup Toxic Spikes has the potential to radically disrupt the opponent's attempts to tank, so it's much higher risk (with 2 of the Top 3 immune to them and Iron Moth as a prominent absorber, alongside 4 other grounded Poison types in the Top 40) but also potentially higher reward.

Sturdy vs Overcoat: Be clear about why Sturdy is preferred: Overcoat has mostly niche use against two somewhat common mons and one more uncommon mon, while OHKO Dondozo, Ting, and Kingambit are arguably more common even when many of them don't run Fissure/Guillotine (and BP + VS Forretress is a great answer to both Dondozo and Kingambit with its bulk and slow pivot to break Yawn cycles) and avoiding OHKOs from Fire moves like Band DNite Fire Punch or Mystical Fire from Flutter Mane can turn the game. Further, while hazards are as common as ever in BSS with Ting as a Top 5 mon in the meta, there are still plenty of games where they don't go up. All of this might be odd to players new to BSS but familiar with Smogon tiers, where hazards are more emphasized and OHKO moves are not allowed.

If using Overcoat to better check Breloom, Brute Bonnet, and Amoonguss, be highly aware of Breloom and Brute Bonnet both commonly running Tera Fire Tera Blast. Any of the Tera types are still reasonable since two resist a Fire move while the other avoids being weak to Grass in the aftermath, but a quick mention to beware of Tera Fire from them is probably a good idea.

The items on this set look fine, but add that Red Card pairs well with Toxic Spikes in particular to hopefully Poison chip stuff that wasn't prepared for it (sometimes even if they brought something like Moth to try to absorb them later). For Sitrus, you should add that full PhysDef Forretress can avoid the 2HKO from an Adamant Band Tera Flying Dragonite using Tera Blast to give Forretress time to get in a move before succumbing to the assault, while also giving it about a 50/50 chance to live two unboosted Shadow Balls from Timid Flutter Mane and/or Gholdengo. It also helps a few calcs vs Chien-Pao as well, although Helmet is likely doing more to help than Sitrus there.

For nature: Forretress generally prefer to be slow if running either Gyro or Volt Switch, so Relaxed is preferred over Impish unless not running either.

Offensive Support Set:

This mostly looks good to go already. Personally I would slash Gyro ahead of Rapid Spin here, but that's debatable so I don't mind deferring if Theorymon prefers RS as the first slash on move 4. I would also still put Earthquake as an other option here especially if leaning into hazard control, as Earthquake hitting Gholdengo can avoid your RS attempt getting blocked with no recourse, and it also doesn't have the 10% chance to hit air against Moth.

Adamant versus Brave (with 0 Speed IV) comes down to maximizing Gyro damage versus outspeeding slow tanks like Amoonguss to get off a hit before a Spore or recovery move.

Don't forget to put the more common 252 HP/252 Atk spread first in the EVs section. Right now you only have Theorymon's suggested spread for running Thunder Wave and then outspeeding Iron Moth after para, which is rather niche and is only even suggested with a move you have as the third slash for move 4. Maximum power with high bulk investment is simple enough, but it still deserves a line.

I'll tag Theorymon in case he wants to review my suggestions given that he has already worked on this previously. Otherwise, once these changes are implemented, consider this QC 1/1. Let me know if you have any further questions. Best regards.

 

[Omastar68]

I've fought several Forretress on cart recently, so I can chime in with some help here.

Defensive Support Set:

For the moveset: Iron Defense should be above Rapid Spin, not only due to usage but because it better synergizes with this set's focus. Rapid Spin is reasonable if pairing with a high number of SR weak mons, but I would strongly recommend that it be used alongside Gyro Ball or Earthquake so that Forretress can at least make an effort to combat potential spinblocking from the three Ghosts in the Top 10 (Flutter Mane, Gholdengo, and Mimikyu). Earthquake should also at least get a slash at the end since its actually a better deterant to a Moth switch-in than Rock Blast if using Toxic Spikes, despite admittedly not being as reliable against many other threats. Otherwise this mostly looks good, although I would reorganize the moves as follows:

name: Defensive Support
move 1: Body Press
move 2: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch / Iron Defense / Rapid Spin
move 4: Gyro Ball / Rock Blast / Earthquake

For comments: you need to explain how Forretress is unique: specifically, it's a slower paced supportive mon that either doesn't fear OHKO moves (or OHKOs from stuff like Fire moves from full) with Sturdy or, alternatively, is one of the rare slower paced mons like that doesn't need a Grass Tera to avoid being scared to death of Breloom and Brute Bonnet thanks to Overcoat. Further, since these abilities don't have a display message on entry, opponents have to respect both, which means most opponents will likely avoid using any of that regardless unless they activate one of them or chancing hitting into them is their only Hail Mary to win. Forretress also benefits from a good defensive typing and a slow pivoting move, which in combination with its mastery of hazard control gives it a unique package to work with. You need to be more specific when mentioning these qualities instead of just saying its unique: if I'm the reader, I don't want to see "unique" but then have to guess why.

Stealth Rock vs Toxic Spikes: You need to expand this explanation. Stealth Rock is more generally useful, with 6 of the Top 13 at the time of writing being weak to Rocks and Sash still being fairly common especially on Chien-Pao, plus Spikes of any kind completely miss the #1 mon or anything with Tera Flying. However, in the right matchup Toxic Spikes has the potential to radically disrupt the opponent's attempts to tank, so it's much higher risk (with 2 of the Top 3 immune to them and Iron Moth as a prominent absorber, alongside 4 other grounded Poison types in the Top 40) but also potentially higher reward.

Sturdy vs Overcoat: Be clear about why Sturdy is preferred: Overcoat has mostly niche use against two somewhat common mons and one more uncommon mon, while OHKO Dondozo, Ting, and Kingambit are arguably more common even when many of them don't run Fissure/Guillotine (and BP + VS Forretress is a great answer to both Dondozo and Kingambit with its bulk and slow pivot to break Yawn cycles) and avoiding OHKOs from Fire moves like Band DNite Fire Punch or Mystical Fire from Flutter Mane can turn the game. Further, while hazards are as common as ever in BSS with Ting as a Top 5 mon in the meta, there are still plenty of games where they don't go up. All of this might be odd to players new to BSS but familiar with Smogon tiers, where hazards are more emphasized and OHKO moves are not allowed.

If using Overcoat to better check Breloom, Brute Bonnet, and Amoonguss, be highly aware of Breloom and Brute Bonnet both commonly running Tera Fire Tera Blast. Any of the Tera types are still reasonable since two resist a Fire move while the other avoids being weak to Grass in the aftermath, but a quick mention to beware of Tera Fire from them is probably a good idea.

The items on this set look fine, but add that Red Card pairs well with Toxic Spikes in particular to hopefully Poison chip stuff that wasn't prepared for it (sometimes even if they brought something like Moth to try to absorb them later). For Sitrus, you should add that full PhysDef Forretress can avoid the 2HKO from an Adamant Band Tera Flying Dragonite using Tera Blast to give Forretress time to get in a move before succumbing to the assault, while also giving it about a 50/50 chance to live two unboosted Shadow Balls from Timid Flutter Mane and/or Gholdengo. It also helps a few calcs vs Chien-Pao as well, although Helmet is likely doing more to help than Sitrus there.

For nature: Forretress generally prefer to be slow if running either Gyro or Volt Switch, so Relaxed is preferred over Impish unless not running either.

Offensive Support Set:

This mostly looks good to go already. Personally I would slash Gyro ahead of Rapid Spin here, but that's debatable so I don't mind deferring if Theorymon prefers RS as the first slash on move 4. I would also still put Earthquake as an other option here especially if leaning into hazard control, as Earthquake hitting Gholdengo can avoid your RS attempt getting blocked with no recourse, and it also doesn't have the 10% chance to hit air against Moth.

Adamant versus Brave (with 0 Speed IV) comes down to maximizing Gyro damage versus outspeeding slow tanks like Amoonguss to get off a hit before a Spore or recovery move.

Don't forget to put the more common 252 HP/252 Atk spread first in the EVs section. Right now you only have Theorymon's suggested spread for running Thunder Wave and then outspeeding Iron Moth after para, which is rather niche and is only even suggested with a move you have as the third slash for move 4. Maximum power with high bulk investment is simple enough, but it still deserves a line.

I'll tag Theorymon in case he wants to review my suggestions given that he has already worked on this previously. Otherwise, once these changes are implemented, consider this QC 1/1. Let me know if you have any further questions. Best regards.

Oh thank you, glad to see some activity on my stuff! I think I put in everything, though naturally it may need to be re-worded.