Flygon

[PokéMontage]

Flygon retains its niche, but the real question is whether that niche holds the same value as it did in the past with all of these new threats introduced and old threats reintroduced.

So, are flygon's talents still important enough to consistently guarantee it a slot on the team or is it going to be pushed aside? I'm not really sure, but I do know that every time I look at Flygon's mediocre stat spread, I ask myself "why?"

 

[Banryu]

And, while Garchomp > Flygon, why not use Scarfgon and YacheSD Chomp on the same team? Scarfgon handles other Dragons, YacheChomp kills stuff like before.

This seems like it could work, but...

This thing as a scarfer will be pretty brutally challenged by Sazandora, who gets much better stats, still has U-Turn, but has a special movepool instead of a physical one. A usable Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast (heck, even Charge Beam and Surf, as well as the elemental Fangs) will do wonders for him, whilst Flygon is limited to the elemental Punches for any kind of coverage. Sazandora even gets Earth Power, which is only slightly less powerful than Flygon's STAB Earthquake and has a good secondary effect. You should also bear in mind that Sazandora's physical attacks can be just as powerful as Flygons, if you decide to invest in them.

Oops, that's right, Sazandora is a Dragon with Levitate and U-Turn too. :0 Between Garchomp and Sazandora (and even Landlos, who has a stronger Earthquake, U-Turn, and higher Speed, even if it doesn't have that secondary Dragon type), Flygon is gonna have a pretty hard time fitting into 5th Gen's OU. :0

I personally think that Choice Band with Outrage/EQ/U-Turn/(filler not named Stone Edge) is gonna be Flygon's best bet at not being outclassed. He gets Ground STAB lacked by Sazandora and Dragon STAB lacked by Landlos, U-Turn lacked by Garchomp, and elemental punches or Quick Attack (LOL) that no one else really has. (...well.... Dragonite, but...)

And of the dragons, it makes it the most suited for a SubRoost set. Earthquake is scaring off the steels that resist Toxic, while Roost, Substitute, and high speed make Flygon pressingly difficult to take down. And it doesn't even miss out on a DW ability because, like all levitators, it didn't get one.

There's always this. Flygon IS one of the few 5th Gen Dragons who the means to use Roost (Overconfident Salamence can't get it, neither can Sazandora). It'd help if it wasn't one of the most fragile dragons out there, but... :0 its type sort of helps compensate for that.

Also...

Claw Sharpen might have gave it a reason for improvement, if given the right moves to abuse it with.

Fire Blast being more accurate is great, but no one mentioned Stone Edge to hit...stuff that Stone Edge hits. If only it had Dragon Rush, the Gen IV 100 Base Power, 75 Acc, 20% flinch move that Dragonite had. Or DynamicPunch for the sheer awesomeness of confusion hax. Or Zap Cannon or Purgatory. They have decent accuracy after a Claw Sharpen. But no, TrollFreak trolled us all Flygon lovers.

Well, life's a bitch.

No. Claw Sharpen su-- ...wait, what? Flygon gets 'namicpunch? o__O
...well... no... even with Claw Sharpen it's not that good, Claw Sharpen only raises D-punch's accuracy to 66%. :0 That still pretty much sucks, and Claw Sharpen Flygon is 100% outclassed by Garchomp. The fact that Flygon gets U-turn doesn't really matter in this instance, because... well...

Seriously. Almost no one uses Claw Sharpen well... I really wish people would stop suggesting it on guys like Flygon, and especially on things like Garchomp that already get better boosting moves. =____=

 

[Banryu]

Flygon retains its niche, but the real question is whether that niche holds the same value as it did in the past with all of these new threats introduced and old threats reintroduced.

So, are flygon's talents still important enough to consistently guarantee it a slot on the team or is it going to be pushed aside? I'm not really sure, but I do know that every time I look at Flygon's mediocre stat spread, I ask myself "why?"

It doesn't even, really. :0 The niche Flygon held in 4th Gen has pretty much been usurped by a combination of Garchomp/Sazandora/Landlos and even Dragonite (as far as defensive sets go), now that it has Multiscale and retains Roost. I mean, there's always the Choice Band sets, but... I dunno if it would be worth it now, with power creep and everything. :0

Well, I did use a CB Flygon last gen with Outrage/EQ/U-Turn/Thunderpunch... I can't really imagine anyone else replacing that, and it worked pretty well. I haven't played much of the new generation, but I don't imagine that will change a whole lot. :0 Of course, with Nattorei and all the other Steelers and crap running around, Fire Punch will probably be the preferred move over Thunderpunch...

EDIT: Ack, sorry for double-post. D:

 

[Shawn Yasumara]

Then, are there any new Chomp counters? No. Nothing showed up that is a soild counter to Chomp. There's no Ice-types which outspeed it and OHKO through Yache still.

Cloyster can defeat Garchomp with no problems,as Garchomp may outspeed it when unboosted,but Cloyster has enough natural bulk to survive any physical attack Garchomp can throw at it before setting up a Shell Break (which makes Cloyster more than viable) and taking it down with Icicle Spear.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I have yet to try Flygon out in this metagame, but I really ought to.

Pure Theorymon:

Its offensive STAB combo is still a huge threat *cough*Garhomp*cough*.

If you're willing to sacrifice a bit of Garchomp's power and bulk (and after spikes/t-spikes, Flygon may often be the bulkier pokemon anyway), Flygon can definitely hold it's own-- as today's metagame is definitely less bulky and more offensive than 4th Gen's everything is at greater risk of being revenge'd by Flygon.

To me, it seems the biggest problems for Flygon in 5th Gen are:

a) Garchomp competing (completely kicking it out of) a team slot
b) Garchomp trolling it as the faster scarf'd dragon (there was a reason all of 4th Gen's Scarfgons ended up being jolly 252 speed-- speed ties won/lost too many games)
c) Doryuuzu trolling flygon (and everyone . . .)


Frankly, there's little reason Flygon couldn't be as effective or even more effictive this metagame as the last, simply in terms of performance. If you ignored comparing it to other similar alternatives, you would still conclude that Flygon is a terrific choice.

Based on sheer capability / threat, Flygon deserves to be a top 30 or top 40 pokemon, comfortably sitting inside OU. Despite that capability (power), I unfortunately could see it completely falling from OU simply because of competition with Garchomp. It really is hard to justify using Flygon with Garchomp available. >____>

 

[masterful]

Flygon retains its niche, but the real question is whether that niche holds the same value as it did in the past with all of these new threats introduced and old threats reintroduced.

So, are flygon's talents still important enough to consistently guarantee it a slot on the team or is it going to be pushed aside? I'm not really sure, but I do know that every time I look at Flygon's mediocre stat spread, I ask myself "why?"

With the increased usage of SS teams, Flygon could definitely still have a large niche, and while Chomp may have better defenses, speed, and attack, it may still be judged uber, and it is not immune to most residual damage

 

[MofoPopo]

Y'know, now that it gets Earth Power, a Specs Set might be useable:

Flygon @ Choice Specs
Levitate
Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)/Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 SpDef/4 HP
~Draco Meteor
~Earth Power
~Fire Blast
~Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power [?]

Draco Meteor to hit anthing that doesn't resist it hard, Earth Power for secondary STAB, Fire Blast for Steels, and Dragon Pulse for a more reliable STAB option, though I'm not sure if you can breed DPulse and EP on the same set. Maybe a Hidden Power over the 4th move?

LOL. No. Salamence/Lati@s/Sazandora do this like 40x better, but flygon has a... ground second typing?

anyway, Flygons value has dropped a lot and it just can't catch up to the other dragons especially w/ stats like that. if mence gets a dd, you only get chance for a speed tie to revenge it w/ choice scarf. that set really only gained that much popularity after latias wa banned, so we'll have to see how things there play out. the way i used it was a as a pivot staller on my team that bluffed a scarf set early game and fake people out at the end. the only thing this has over chomp is levitate+u-turn. so if it wants to get any love, it needs these. scarf set has become to predictable, so my guess would be band for that extra power from the start. it acts less like revenge killer and just screw shit over w/ banded outrage and u-turn.

then again, other shit can do this better, Flygons just got better typing and nice ability. I do feel though some sort of a subroost set could work. Idk though, that's mostly theorymoning

 

[deiphobus]

Bumping this thread to confirm that Flygon does have its niche, Dragon Tail phazing.


Name: Phazer
Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP, 4 Atk, 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

I've tried this set out in a few matches, and it works pretty well. Sleep Talk gives you a 1/3 chance to phaze out with Dragon Tail off Flygon's very important 100 base speed. In some respects, bulky Dragon Tail Gyarados might be a better phazer, being able to take hits better, but Flygon sports resistance to the EdgeQuake combo and has that really awesome 328 speed to phaze from.

 

[bludhoundz]

Salamence has the same speed and access to all those moves, except with better bulk and Intimidate.

Flygon does have the entry hazards immunities going his way though, definitely an interesting set choice

 

[MapleSandwich]

Salamence has the same speed and access to all those moves, except with better bulk thanks to Intimidate.

Flygon does have the entry hazards immunities going his way though, definitely an interesting set choice

Intimidate is hardly relevant considering you're trying to stay in and force multiple switches via Dragon Tail. It only applies to the first Pokemon, and then you're out. SR weak is a huge weakness of Mence's when it comes to stalling, as my multiple failed attempts with a Wish Mence to replace WishTias can attest to. Flygon does this way better, from what I can see. Rock resistance as opposed to weakness is just too cool.

 

[deiphobus]

I would argue that Flygon has better resistances though, immunity to Electric and resistance to Rock is very useful. The neutrality to Water bites a little, but the Grass neutrality is really of no consequence. Plus, Salamence has a nearly useless secondary STAB.

 

[jwoozie]

While Dragon Tail phazing can be very effective I think Garchomp is better suited to it, as is Gyarados.
Garchomp does lack immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes but it has much better bulk, better speed and much more attack. It even has the added benefit of boosted evasion in SS.

 

[bludhoundz]

Intimidate is hardly relevant considering you're trying to stay in and force multiple switches via Dragon Tail. It only applies to the first Pokemon, and then you're out. SR weak is a huge weakness of Mence's when it comes to stalling, as my multiple failed attempts with a Wish Mence to replace WishTias can attest to. Flygon does this way better, from what I can see. Rock resistance as opposed to weakness is just too cool.

Intimidate isn't THAT relevant but it can help create the first switch, which you dragon tail out to something else. He also does just have better overall bulk.

The SR weakness is big, but as you said you are attempting to stay in and force switches. Also while Flygon's ground typing is nice for the rock resistance, Mence has some nice ones with Grass/Fighting, making an excellent Breloom counter (eat the spore and spam sleep talk), as well as Water (many bulky waters run only Boiling Water + 3 support moves).

Overall the choice between the two depends on what you're trying to wall / phaze, but Flygon is definitely easier to just slap on a team because he resists SR and provides a nice immunity to electric.

 

[jwoozie]

I don't even see why Mence was brought up as a Dragon Tail user.

I can definitely see the merits of using a bulky dragon such as Dragonite or Garchomp. But why would anyone in their right mind attempt an all out bulky Mence?

 

[Pratty]

I don't even see why Mence was brought up as a Dragon Tail user.

I can definitely see the merits of using a bulky dragon such as Dragonite or Garchomp. But why would anyone in their right mind attempt an all out bulky Mence?

Intimidate?

Though I feel Dragonite is the best at D-Tail PHazing.

 

[November Blue]

Though I feel Dragonite is the best at D-Tail PHazing.

I can attest to this. Flygon can subroost (toxic, EQ) better than dnite.

I think a jolly choice bander with quick attack would be viable. Sounds good on paper.

Oh, and flygon fans, don't give up on the little guy just yet. Grey is going to make him the next bullet punch scizor. Oh yes. He's going to get shell smash through trapinch, and take the metagame by storm.

Flygon will punch that damn smirk off garchomps ugly face, then bend him over and rape his rough skinned ass until his base speed halves because he can't walk straight anymore. Then we'll see who the uber suspect is!

 

[outofdashdwz]

Flygon will punch that damn smirk off garchomps ugly face, then bend him over and rape his rough skinned ass until his base speed halves because he can't walk straight anymore. Then we'll see who the uber suspect is!

How... graphic... <________<

Anyway, Flygon is far from useless this gen, and it definitely still has the niche role of being a good scarfer due to immunity/resistance to hazards and good typing, but like some of the other posters mentioned, the utility of this niche role is dubious this gen. It can still certainly do things you need it to, but one just has to keep in mind Flygon has its limitations. One of the most obvious ones is that its attack is "decent", but unlike many of its other Dragon brethren, without investment, you can't expect to hurt much. I was so sad when my Fire Punch failed to kill a Breloom at 60% and got Spore'd :(

 

[CJ0114]

Flygon will punch that damn smirk off garchomps ugly face, then bend him over and rape his rough skinned ass until his base speed halves because he can't walk straight anymore. Then we'll see who the uber suspect is!

Haha. Best Flygon comment ever.

Just curious. Would Claw Sharpen help Fissure hit? If so that could work as a gimmick set. OHKO moves would have to be allowed of course though I'm thinking it'll require quite a bit of support to work.

 

[JSND]

Nope fissure wont work

Problem with flygon is his 100 stats is rather disapointing and weather is everywhere making base 100 scarf a lot less good than before. Importance of U-Turn has gone down a lot compared to last gen(its still good nonethless) and this metagame is more bulky for his weaker attacks to break through(sadly this is true Blame THAT dory)
And theres garchomp who even when uninvested has same attack as full invested flygon. And when i face him getting will o wisp is easier and it make him set up bait

 

[Siggu]

How can Flygon fare against Dory? It's immune to its main STAB (non-Mold Breaker Dory, but well... who uses that?) and resistant to its secondary attack, leaving it with... X-Scissor as its main option?

I think Flygon can be an 'early check' against Balloon-less Dory. Not sure about +2, but I'm sure that Flygon can beat Doryuzuu easily if they cross ways with Dory at +0. If it can survive a +2 attack, then even Balloon Dory can lose to Flygon

However, it's a shame Flygon's... 'humility' has finally given him a hit, with above-average Dragons constantly appearing as if GF were forced to do that (And with the already-existing powerful Dragons returning...)

 

[Firenze]

One of Flygon's best niches last gen was its ability to scout effectively with choice scarfed u-turn. The introduction of team preview, as well as the countless powerful dragons that been unbanned, leads me to believe that Flygon will be relatively useless this gen.

 

[breh]

frankly flygon just sucks this gen. power creep made it useless. I mean when you realize that the main reason you're using something is a 70 BP (u-turn) or a 90 bp (dragon tail) attack off of a VERY meager base 100 attack, you see how bad of an idea it is to use flygon in the first place. it was good last gen, but this gen it's just meh.

 

[jchen]

Cloyster can defeat Garchomp with no problems,as Garchomp may outspeed it when unboosted,but Cloyster has enough natural bulk to survive any physical attack Garchomp can throw at it before setting up a Shell Break (which makes Cloyster more than viable) and taking it down with Icicle Spear.

+2 jolly yache Outrage from garchomp does 97.1-114.5% to 0/0 cloyster(241hp, 396def). OHKO without any hazards.
+0 Life orb Ice shard from 252 atk adamant cloyster does 53.8% MAX to 0/0 yache chomp. Cloyster does not "handle" SD yache chomp unless you invest HEAVILY in HP and def. Even if cloyster runs 252 hp its still taking 76% min, ie guaranteed OHKO after rocks.

Sorry for derail, just thought i had to respond to that point after doing some calcs.

 

[Raikaria]

Cloyster can defeat Garchomp with no problems,as Garchomp may outspeed it when unboosted,but Cloyster has enough natural bulk to survive any physical attack Garchomp can throw at it before setting up a Shell Break (which makes Cloyster more than viable) and taking it down with Icicle Spear.

Look at the date of my post please. October 3rd. We didn't know what everything did back then. We didn't know the absurbity of Shell Break Cloyster.

Who, by the way, really dislikes eating a Stone Edge from Garchomp, especially if Garchomp is at +2, and especially is SR is up.

Basically:

Garchomp comes in!
*Switch to Cloyster*
*Swords Dance*
Garchomp used Stone Edge/Outrage!
Cloyster Fainted!

Either that, or Cloyster comes in to revenge kill. In which case, you can just LOL and send in Scarfgon, and Stone Edge it. [Who outspeeds +2 Cloyster. Cloyster is not fast in the first place.] Or, even better, just scare out Closter with... say, Roopushin. Assumeing rocks are up, Closyer can only play that game so long.

This seems like it could work, but...

Oops, that's right, Sazandora is a Dragon with Levitate and U-Turn too. :0 Between Garchomp and Sazandora (and even Landlos, who has a stronger Earthquake, U-Turn, and higher Speed, even if it doesn't have that secondary Dragon type), Flygon is gonna have a pretty hard time fitting into 5th Gen's OU. :0

Sazandora is slower, Flygon is a better check to other Sazandora. He also has a better typing. Sazandora is weak to Dragon, Ice, Fighting and Bug. Flygon is only weak to Ice and Dragon. He also dosen't fear random Thunder Waves.

Landos lacks the Dragon type, which is very important, really, as Flygon was excellent at cleaning with Scarf Outrage after the removal of Steels. Sure, the new dragons do that better, but that's something Landos dosen't have.

Yes, Flygon will find it hard, but he still has his niches, and is still an excellent partner to Garchomp. It's like using Salamance and Dragonite on the same team late Gen 5, to muscle past their counters. Very few could handle both.

 

[Banryu]

....you just might be right.