Okay, thanks for the calcs. I figured it wouldn't make much of a difference for Haxorus, and now that I think about it, seems like most prominent physical attackers are walled or not walled by Ferrothorn regardless of it's defense investment. I guess I'll just stick with the standard spread then.
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Ferrothorn
- Thread starter Not Scicky
- Start date
I gotta agree, Ingrain is GREAT for Baton Pass, but typically really bad for anything else. THE GUY LEARNS LEECH SEED, there is no reason to use Ingrain instead!
That being said, I did get an idea for the ONLY (note:gimmick at best) Ingrain set ferrothorn should EVER run
Eliza/Nigel @Leftovers
Standard EV build
Moveset:
Leech seed
Ingrain
Substitute
Protect
Use ONLY in rain to minimize risk of firey death, and ONLY after you're 100% sure they don't have any Grass types left. Predict like the dickens so you can drop your subs the turn they break, and you can stall FOREVER. Some kind of Toxic support helps a lot too.
Beyond this, don't waste your time with Ingrain, it's a niche move that really only belongs on BP teams, and Leech Seed is just better 90% of the time
Does anybody run Gravity on their Ferrothorn? Personally, I find it considerably useful in that it increases the accuracy of Power Whip, not to mention whatever Sweeper you decide to send out, plus it allows you to rack up spike damage on flying types, which is an amazing asset for stall teams....the only issue is that a) gives your opponent an opportunity to abuse it and b) lasts for a very short time.
I honestly love gravity, but never really find a pokemon able to use it. It's a cool concept, but what would you really give up on Ferrothorn to run it? I also wish that like Trick Room, it got a turn-extending hold item, but that's not really for this discussion.
In my experience, most Ferrothorn carry Spikes/Power Whip/Leech Seed/Random Move. It can run Stealth Rock, Gyro Ball, Thunder Wave and Bulldoze there viably, but Gravity can go there as well if you were building a team around it.
I would actually use Gyro Ball over Power Whip most of the time. Sure it has bad synergy with Thunder Wave, but unless you're using that or have several Ice attacks on your team, not getting walled by Dragon types is too good to pass up.
The standard, last I knew, was Gyro Ball, either Curse/Power Whip/Twave, and the last two slots going to Stealth Rocks/Spikes/Leech Seed. The one I use is Gyro/Whip/Rocks/Seed; but that's pretty much my point - he has a lot of very good options, so it's hard to pick which one qualifies as random. I'm sure a Whip/Spikes/Seed/Gravity set might work, but as it was mentioned, you have to keep in mind that you are a mono-attacker of a type that can be easy to resist - not saying that that's a completely bad thing, but you have to make sure you team is built around that fact.
Do you think that, when ST Chandelure will be released, Bulldoze will be used more?
I'm personally less keen on Gyro Ball because I hate having a primary STAB move with a measly 8 PP on a such as defensive pokemon. He becomes too easy to stall out. I certainly see more Power Whips than Gyro Balls on opponents, but maybe that's just because of how my team is built. @Sensei B: I've never seen a Curse Ferrothorn before.
No, because Chandelure thrashes it regardless. Getting a decent hit on him if he tries to set up is nice, but Ferrothorn will still lose. Bulldoze has a horrible Base Power, so it won't KO and -1 Speed Chandy still outspeeds and obviously OHKOs.
The biggest problem Bulldoze has is how weak it is. To give you an idea, you need to invest something like 200 Attack EVs just to break SubCM Jirachi's subs. That's pretty pathetic. That said, I carry Bulldoze on Ferrothorn every now and then. It's handy if you don't need one of Ferrothorn's other moves such as Gyro Ball and Thunder Wave. It's always funny to destroy incoming Magnezone who think you'll be easy setup bait. As Rorschach would say "I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me!" XD
Sure it's a problem, but if you're only using Gyro Ball as an attacking move you're probably either running Leech Seed + Protect or double hazards, which are hard as fuck to stall out and suicidal respectively. I would take Power Whip over Gyro Ball for that reason sometimes, but it's not the biggest deal.
No it isn't. I can think of 0 reasons to run 3 support moves, 2 of them being entry hazards. Very few pokes can set-up dual hazards, such as Deoxys-D, and this is because he has insane bulk and Recover, or is used as a suicide lead.
Ferrothorn cannot find time to set-up both hazards, and if you make him to, his role of walling will be seriously compromised, with only 1 attack and no T-Wave/Protect. If he had Recover, maybe he could get away with it, but as of now i say that i would never want to run SR + Spikes Ferro + Leech Seed Ferro.
The problem with Ferro is, that while it is a fantastic wall and hazards setter, it lacks reliable recovery and can easily be set-up on. So you will have to cover those 2 aspects when choosing Ferro's moveset. This is why Leech Seed is almost a staple on every Ferro i choose, because it gives you a way to recover damage, while also making you harder to set-up on, as almost everything hates a Leech Seed on the switch. Then you pick your hazard of choice, and you have 2 slots left. Those 2 slots should be focused in making you more difficult to set-up on. This means that one attacking move + T-Wave, or 2 attacking moves, or even 1 attacking move + Protect are the best combinations of moves for Ferro, imo.
I also find Bulldoze + Gyro Ball to be a very potent 2 move combo, paired with SR/Spikes and Leech Seed. Let's see what Power Whip hits harder than Gyro Ball in OU, shall we? It hits Cloyster, Donphan, Hippowdon, Dugtrio, Jolteon, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Jellicent, Keldeo, Politoed, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Starmie, Tentacruel and Vaporeon.
Now let's take out the pokes that would never stay in against Ferro, or come into him: Gastrodon, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Strmie, Rotom-W and Politoed. Let's also remove the pokes that don't care about Power Whip for various reasons: Jellicent (WoW + Taunt beats you anyway), Reuniclus (Power Whip isn't enough to prevent CM variants from setting up, same for TR, and also why would you let your Ferro into Reuniclus is beyond me) Hippo (wouldn't stay in against Ferro as Ferro sets up on him and drains his life with Leech Seed), Dugtrio (dies from Gyro Ball too), Keldeo (Keldeo would prefer to avoid setting up on Ferro, as T-Wave, Leech Seed and Power Whip all cripple him or kill him, and you can't come into Keldeo, as at +1 it ohkoes with Secret Sword).
So that leaves us with: Cloyster, Tentacruel, Donphan and Gyarados. Out of those 4, Cloyster would never attempt to set-up on Ferro, so Power Whip only matters when you come to stop a +2 Cloyster, at which point, most likely you will have already been weakened enough for Cloyster to get past you, or else why would Cloyster set-up in the first place? Also Donphan would never come into Ferro, as it fears Leech Seed and Power Whip, and Ferro wins one vs one against him, with or without Power Whip.
So that leaves us with Tentacruel and Gyarados. Even Tentacruel is questionable, as it is very likely to burn you, and is not afraid to stay in and Scald you a couple of times, as unlike most waters, it is neutral to Power Whip and gains 12.5% life each turn. So, i would prefer to avoid staying in against Tenta most of the times. So that leaves us with only 1 poke, where Power Whip is really useful, and that is Gyarados. So unless your team fears him, or you are afraid of Gyro Ball running out of pps, Bulldoze is better than Power Whip as a second attacking move, as it prevents Zone from trapping and setting up on you, prevents Volcarona from gaining any speed boosts against you, which means that if you have a poke with more than 100 base Speed with strong physical attacks, you will be able to handle her after Ferro dies, and finally and most importantly, makes you a SubCM Jirachi counter if you run enough Atk evs to always break it's Sub (192).
Ingrain may net you a win here and there, but it's pretty bad over all in my opinion, and as you said, Leech Seed is a better option overall. Ingrain really puts a dent in Ferrothorn's walling ability, and practically guarantees its death as it becomes a sitting duck to things that would kill it.
this seems like a perfect set up bait mon...
Breloom, Celebi, or any other grass type could set up to +6 on that Ferrothorn set and wreck shop, not to mention Reuniclus and Alakazam. Or anything with a Substitute. Also, Ingrain means that you can't switch out, so all you can do is watch them set up and inevitably die. Almost any set up sweeper would love to face an Ingrained Ferrothorn. Once the opponent uses Substitute, it's gg Ferro + team.
What does everyone think of Ferrothorn coming in at #3 in usage? Despite the fact that the new formes pretty much have their way with it if it switches in to them, the newly Rain-based metagame seems quite kind to the metal bush, and even if it gets burned it can go on walling thanks to Leech Seed.
I haven't had a good history with Ferrothorn. Oh god. I hate facing it so much, probably because I've ran rain for a while and only recently did I start using Magnezone. Ferrothorn is definitely scary under rain, but it can only take so much of a beating before it dies, and sacking a sweeper to weaken it for another isn't a bad idea at times. Ferrothorn does indeed get a great boon from rain, but because so, and because of all the attention it's receiving, people will discover more ways to get around it. I believe that it's bound to fall in usage at some point.
with superpower being released pokes like haxorus are able to counter it pretty nicely. And with DW Breloom being released it counters it very well also. Terrakion and Heatran have always destroyed it along with magnezone like Machina stated in his post. Overall Ferrothorn has a ton of ways of being dealt with, along with therians such as tornadus or thundurus absolutely recking it with focus blast or heat wave. All in all, ferrothorn wont be as much of a ....thorn(cwutididder?) as it was in BW1.
I would say they are checks, but most of those pokemon can't switch into Ferrothorn because Thunder Wave destroys them.
I think I am correct in saying that Ferrothorn is the best Spikes setter in the damn game. That being said, the Spikes it sets can be easily be abused to the fullest on rain teams with Tornadus-T. Force the kill and U-turn: you will come out with very little consequence while the opponent will have taken nearly a quarter of your opponents Tornadus-T counter's health (SR 6%+12% Spikes+6%). Having the ability to force the switch so easily makes those Spikes very abusable. That said I would say his place is justified. Spikes+SR isn't the way to go, since SR can be moved on to something else very easily to give a nice free spot for Ferrothorn. I always enjoyed Protect since it makes him more "wallish" in a sense by gaining more Lefties and Leech Seed recovery. I really like it for choiced users to, especially those on Volt-Turn teams. Protect Scouting+Entry Hazards+U-turn iron barbs damage can be quite annoying for them!
I never really like using Ferrothorn in the rain since it compromises his ability to handle certain water-types such as LO Starmie and Rotom-W. If you are on a rain team then you probably already have the ability to comfortably sponge a random HP Fire, which can always be used for a easy switch-in. I always thought Sand was its best weather to prevent the opponents Leftovers recovery, which is amazing for something as reliant on dealing out residual damage as Ferrothorn.
Is it worth running 40 Atk EVs to power up Gyro Ball?
I'm currently running Gyro Ball/Spikes/Leech Seed/Protect w/ Leftovers on my rain stall team. It's sassy nature and its EVs are 252HP, 40Atk, 8Def, and 208Sp.Def. I haven't concluded yet, but should I keep those 40 atk EVs or allocate them to a defense?
I'm currently running Gyro Ball/Spikes/Leech Seed/Protect w/ Leftovers on my rain stall team. It's sassy nature and its EVs are 252HP, 40Atk, 8Def, and 208Sp.Def. I haven't concluded yet, but should I keep those 40 atk EVs or allocate them to a defense?
if they're set up to specifically kill a certain mon in a certain number of turns, keep it. unless they let you score a certain 2HKO, send them back to your defenses. trying to just power up moves for the sake of it, on a defensive mon, is generally a waste of EVs. for example, putting 112 satk on forretress for hp ice is sometimes a good idea (i think it 2hkos dragonite so it actually hits a useful benchmark), but putting some random 40 satk EVs for that same hp ice (such a spread cannot even 2hko salamence iirc... you need 52 for that?) is pretty much always pointless. same deal here
I've actually been wondering for a long time if the current popular Ferrothorn spread is really ideal in this meta. The current one was made in the early generation days of gen 5 almost 2 years ago now. I do realize they combat Haxorus better, and in practice its hard to see if you really need another spread. I am just wondering if anyone else had had any success with any other, even if it is just shifted a few ev points defensively, or even investment in attack for some reason.
