Other EVO Process Workshop III

[Deck Knight]

Alright, I think at this point we have reached an impasse over Concept first or Pokemon first arguments.

My suggestion to resolve this is to hold a bold poll among the newest Policy Committee members in favor of either Pokemon w/Concept first or Concept w/Selection Stage After first.

Since it is impossible to please everyone, we should make our argument in a single statement for the vote.

For my sake, the argument for Concept w/Selection Stage After is:

*A vote for Concept w/Selection Stage After will have EVO begin as a Concept Submission thread where a concept is decided with an attached sample of applicable pokemon (as outlined in this post). The specific pokemon to apply it to [sample listed and any community suggestions included] are discussed as the options for the next poll. Options deemed to have the best support will move on. The purpose for this is to identify a solid concept for EVO that stands on its own before allowing it to be judged in part by the popularity of a specific pokemon.

(Any who happen to agree with this may assist me in editing for a final version).

There is little contention over the rest of the process. I am fine with any order, as long as movepool precedes stat distribution.

 

[ferron]

i am all for a vote, but only on that one topic, and actually called for one already.

anyone that read my posts, since i have made no attempt to hide it, would know that i prefer concept first for the process.

i also agree that the movepool vote should precede the stat vote, but am of the oppinion that the discussion of the two should be done somewhat in tandem since we have to make sure that this will go in the direction that we decided on for the concept.

 

[the_artic_one]

Ok, here's my statement:

*A vote for Pokemon w/Concept first will have EVO start with a Pokemon+concept submission thread (as outlined in this post) with people submitting a pokemon to be evolved alongside a niche that the pokemon currently fills or is close to filling. The purpose of this is to allow EVO to distinguish itself from CAP by focusing on improving an existing (but flawed) concept rather than creating a new one.

Is that clear? Like DK, I'm open to critique.

 

[Deck Knight]

Making this post as an independent reference for later. Will respond to the_artic_one below.

Concept w/Selection Stage Afterward will use the following submission format:

[B]Concept: <Concept name>[/B]
[B]Description:[/B] A description of the concept, with all the normal 
regulations placed on CAP Concepts.

[B]Sample:[/B]<Sample of [B]2-5[/B] applicable pokemon and brief reasoning>

EX1 (credit hydrolphin):

[B]Concept: Great Baton Passer[/B]
[B]Description:[/B] A pokemon that can Baton pass something really well,
that can work in a standard team.

[B]Sample:[/B]
[I]Drifblim:[/I] Already Passes huge subs, but with some good defenses, it
could also work as a half decent tank.
[I]Mr. Mime:[/I] Soundproof is great on any baton pass team, but Mr. Mime
would need something good to pass to make it competitive.
[I]Ariados:[/I] Spider Web is good to pass, Ariados could also become a bulky
SD sweeper late game.
[I]Volbeat:[/I] SpA is harder to pass, Volbeat could set up for Porygon-Z or
Alakazam to make them even more dangerous.
[I]Hypno: [/I]Not only would he be able to pass CM, Hypno could be used as
a Special Wall.

EX2:

[B]Concept: Para/Burn eating anti-threat[/B]
[B]Description:[/B] A pokemon that can absorb or otherwise utilize burn or
paralysis and score super-effective hits against Zapdos, Tyranitar, Scizor,
and other major threats.

[B]Sample:[/B]
[I]Camerupt:[/I] Immune to Burn and Thunder Wave courtesy of its type,
has a diverse offensive movepool including Ground, Rock, and Fire moves.
[I]Torkoal:[/I] Immune to burn and generally too slow to mind paralysis. 
Has superb defense and good support options. White Smoke prevents
Intimidate and Metal Sound from impacting its offensive or defensive ability
against threats.
[I]Sandslash:[/I] Learns Safeguard to prevent status, has excellent support
options, good innate defense, immune to Thunder Wave.
[I]Hariyama:[/I] Guts discourages status while Thick Fat can give it more
switchins. Resists Stone Edge, X-Scissor, Crunch, and Pursuit. With EVs, it
can be bulky on either end of the spectrum. Knock Off and Whirlwind provide
decent support options.

 

[Deck Knight]

Ok, here's my statement:

*A vote for Pokemon w/Concept first will have EVO start with a Pokemon+concept submission thread (as outlined in this post) with people submitting a pokemon to be evolved alongside a niche that the pokemon currently fills or is close to filling. The purpose of this is to allow EVO to distinguish itself from CAP by focusing on improving an existing (but flawed) concept rather than creating a new one.

Is that clear? Like DK, I'm open to critique.

Looks good to me, anyway. When I send the PM off for approval, I'll be using this definition as part of the OP unless there are any major edits.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Concept w/Selection Stage Afterward will use the following submission format:

This is the most convincing format for an EVO Concept Submission I've seen to date. Good work, DK!

 

[DougJustDoug]

I agree that we should hold a vote of the Policy Committee on how to start the process. Both ways of starting the project have advantages and disadvantages. It looks like Deck Knight is assembling a vote OP, so I'm looking forward to seeing the finished proposal.

 

[gorm]

I'm kinda surprised the majority of votes are seemingly worried about fanboyism when we have agreed that this project will be pretty much policed by the TL?


also i would have joined the cap 7 policy committee if i knew i would need it to vote for something involved in the evo process =__= how many more votes are we planning on having?

 

[tennisace]

The TL is not a mod. The TL's sole purpose is to make polls and start discussions, making very limited decisions in the process. There is no room for subjectivity since in reality everything is determined by amount of support. So no, a strong TL won't do anything. The only people with any real power in CAP are the mods, and any process that requires a strong TL is a weak process.

 

[gorm]

as long as the process sets appropriate bounds/requirements for submissions rigidly, all the TL has to do is police his topics for violators of those bounds right? if we DO go with pokemon first, we can't really be taken by a tide of fanboys if the TL knows what a good submission ("this pokemon could do well in OU given certain key improvements) and a bad one ("for the hell of it").

 

[Deck Knight]

The results of our Policy Review Poll are in. Concept w/Selection Stage After.

Here is the initial framework. Please comment and make suggestions.


EVO Process - Order of Events

* Concept Submissions
Topic Leader Nominations

* Part 1 (Concept Poll)
Topic Leader Selection

* Part 2 (Pokemon Selection Discussion)
Part 2b (Pokemon Selection Poll)

* Part 3 (Typing Adjustment Discussion)
Part 3b (Typing Adjustment Poll)

* Part 4 (Ability Adjustment Discussion)
Part 4a (Ability Adjustment Poll)
Art Submissions

* Part 5 (Movepool Adjustment Discussion)
Part 5a (Movepool Adjustment Poll)

* Part 6 (Stat Adjustment Discussion)
Part 6b Stat Submissions

* Part 7 (Stat Spread Poll)

* Part 8 (Art Poll)

* Part 9 (Name Discussion)

* Part 10 (Name Poll)
Sprite Submissions

* Part 11 (Sprite Poll)

* Misc (Height, Weight, etc.)
Server Implementation

* Playtesting
Analysis

 

[hydrolphin]

The most important thing on the agenda is typing...
In which situations should we open said poll. This is another difficult issue, seeing as fanboys will override any common sense unless rules are put in place.

My stance:
If the selected pokemon for evolution has a single type, the poll is ALWAYS going to take place. No change will be an option.

If the selected pokemon is dual typed, someone must decide if a type change is in the best intrest of the project. This could be the TL, the Policy Commitee, or a special EVO commitee appointed by the TL. Any suggestions??

 

[Deck Knight]

The most important thing on the agenda is typing...
In which situations should we open said poll. This is another difficult issue, seeing as fanboys will override any common sense unless rules are put in place.

My stance:
If the selected pokemon for evolution has a single type, the poll is ALWAYS going to take place. No change will be an option.

If the selected pokemon is dual typed, someone must decide if a type change is in the best intrest of the project. This could be the TL, the Policy Commitee, or a special EVO commitee appointed by the TL. Any suggestions??

Keep the Policy Committee out of changes like type. The PRC is about Process issues, and should have no jurisdiction over the creation or outcome of a single particular poll.

The TL should gauge the support of such a change, and I think perhaps make sure the change does not fundamentally alter the pokemon. There's no reason for a Fire type to become Fire/Water, or vice versa. Going from say Fire/Rock -> Fire/Steel would not be completely ludicrous, given the example of Steelix and the like. Otherwise it should be community support.

 

[tennisace]

I feel that we should do a short one day poll to see if we should change the type with three options: No Change, Change the first type, and Change the second type. From there, we go to a type poll. No change will still be an option on the typing polls even if it is chosen to be changed out of fairness. This is because good competitive arguments can sometimes swing people. Now there is really no reason to change the type of a Pokemon on evolution except for fanboy reasons to begin with, so the first poll should be a bold poll with solid reasoning on what and why we should change the type.

 

[billymills]

I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to decide how to implement this alongside CAP. We don't want art polls intersecting etc. So are there any ideas? I'm assuming start EVO somewhere around the time CAP art closes, given the process structures.

 

[tennisace]

Last time it started after CAP's movepool. However, if people want to try it different this time, I'm open to suggestions on when its best to "Not Conflict".

 

[Deck Knight]

Last time it started after CAP's movepool. However, if people want to try it different this time, I'm open to suggestions on when its best to "Not Conflict".

How much would EVO Art conflict with CAP Spriting?

Doing EVO Art after CAP Art is decided gives the most theoretical time to do EVO Art.

 

[cyberzero]

Well, we can assume from previous CAPs that the support movepool to the end of the CAP will take from about two to three weeks. Thereafter, it's about two to three more weeks until the beginning of the next CAP. I think that if we start it right around the time of the movepool, then we can have this last about 4-6 weeks at most, and begin the next CAP project right after.

If this is too long, considering the lower amount of work required for this and that darkie took less than 6 weeks to do a regular CAP, it would probably be better to have it take place after the complete movepool poll. This way it would leave 3-5 weeks for the EVO.

I prefer the first method because the extra time may allow TLs that are holding lagging tails *coughtenniscough* to have ample time and allow more security for the quality of the EVO.

P.S. Just kidding, tennis ^_^

 

[hydrolphin]

Bump

I think we have the order narrowed down to basically that of CAP except with the pokemon selection stage second and Stat submissions coming after the movepool selction. Unless there is a huge opposition, we need to finish up this project quickly to get EVO started.

 

[cyberzero]

I agree, Deck Knight basically has the process down. Unless there is any opposition, I think that a PRC vote should be held in order to finalize the process.

 

[sbc]

I haven't kept up to date much with the progress here, but I think DK has the process nailed.

 

[Deck Knight]

This is late but I have one last point of discussion: eligibility.

As far as I'm concerned, EVO pokemon evolve with the "EVO Badge," and thus I wouldn't have any qualms evolving the likes of say, Sunflora and Cloyster. I really couldn't care less about what canonical way they evolve, as long as they aren't already a 3 stage evolution line or something with crazy branches like Eevee and Tyrogue.

Basically as long as it isn't already OU, a 3 stage line, or a branched evolution I have zero qualms evolving it.

This is important during the concept process, since someone might be able to make a compelling argument for evolving Sunflora on the basis its the only non-3 stage Grass type with Encore.

I just want to get final clarification on this, because it expands the pool of eligible pokemon to 2-Stage Stone/item evolutions not named Arcanine(555 BST) and Starmie(OU) [or -eons].

Otherwise I was hoping for more commentary because Doug was dissapointed when everyone sort of dropped off the last time, and we had a fiasco.

 

[ferron]

technically we could do arcanine and just rearrange the stats and give a new additions to the movepool. but i agree that stones shouldn't be a limitation, though we don't really have any precedent.

 

[cyberzero]

I'm going to use a quote from Doug:

1. BL to OU
"Power Boost"
Examples:
-- Rhydon -> Rhyperior
-- Porygon2 -> PorygonZ

2. UU to OU
"Major Upgrade"
Examples:
-- Gligar -> Gliscor
-- Sneasel -> Weavile
-- Yanma -> Yanmega

3. NU to OU
"Massive Overhaul"
Examples:
-- Togetic -> Togekiss
-- Roselia -> Roserade
-- Aipom -> Ambipom

He hits that right on the nail. I think that the first two qualify - the imaginary BL tier, and UU. Of course, assumptions must be made - where do we cross the line?

NU to OU is NOT what we're looking for here. Cross that off the list.

Now that BL and UU have merged as well as NFE and NU, we have to specifically identify what is what.

BL can be considered top-tier UU, as well as normal top-tier UU. NFE should be crossed off the list immediately, so I think that the only concern is coming up with an NU list that we can use to ban Pokemon that can only be evolved into OU using Massive Overhaul. If I recall correctly, Al_Alchemist has an NU list going, so he would be a good source to go to for this.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm going to use a quote from Doug:


He hits that right on the nail. I think that the first two qualify - the imaginary BL tier, and UU. Of course, assumptions must be made - where do we cross the line?

NU to OU is NOT what we're looking for here. Cross that off the list.

Now that BL and UU have merged as well as NFE and NU, we have to specifically identify what is what.

BL can be considered top-tier UU, as well as normal top-tier UU. NFE should be crossed off the list immediately, so I think that the only concern is coming up with an NU list that we can use to ban Pokemon that can only be evolved into OU using Massive Overhaul. If I recall correctly, Al_Alchemist has an NU list going, so he would be a good source to go to for this.

I have it bookmarked, actually. However, there are very, very few pokemon I believe would fit NU -> OU that don't have some kind of coherent concept or niche behind them.

Here is the list pruned of 3-stagers and split evolutions:

Arbok
Ariados
Banette
Carnivine
Castform
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Furret
Girafarig
Illumise
Kricketune
Ledian
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Plusle
Sableye
Seaking
Spinda
Sunflora
Swalot
Unown
Volbeat
Whiscash

Of this list, only Delibird, Ditto, Spinda, and Unown strike me as an NU -> OU Massive Overhaul kind of move, since everything else has some kind of strange explorable niche. Good luck on Plusle/Minun though...