"Event Moves": their impact and their legacy

[tennisace]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/wish
Out of those 24 pokemon, here is a viable list:
Espeon
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Jirachi
Jolteon
Leafeon
Togekiss
Umbreon
Vaporeon
(Spinda WISHES it could be on this list.)

Espeon and Jolteon can fast-pass wish easily. Gardevoir can come in on something like Gyarados or Heatran, Trace their ability to force a switch, and Wish. The rest (Glaceon, Jirachi, Leafeon, Togekiss, Umbreon, Vaporeon) are sufficently bulky to Wish and U-Turn/Baton Pass to those in need. So yes, Blissey losing Wish hurts, but it has Softboiled/Aromatherapy/Calm Mind to make up with it. Also, expect to see the Baton Passing of Aqua Ring/Ingrain and Leech Seed much much more.

 

[tea_and_blues]

I will miss Sub-seeding Plume, but it was pretty cheap.

 

[astrohawke]

Also, expect to see the Baton Passing of Aqua Ring/Ingrain and Leech Seed much much more.

Because wishbliss is gone? I highly doubt that. Ingrain isn't a viable move outside of baton pass chains seeing as it makes your pokemon unable to switch...which is a problem for most things.

Also wishbliss wasn't exactly common. The majority of blisseys still ran softboiled. Wish forced it to run protect as well which is 1 less slot it could have been using for another of its moves. I don't think there will be a big change now that it's gone.

Vaporeon and jirachi were always the more common and better wish passers anyway from what I've seen.

 

[Pikachu of Doom]

I've never actually used WishBliss and Bliss is still a staple team member although I've used Wish on Vaporeon.

Do you think Umbreon could find its niche as a wishpasser?

 

[Flashstorm1]

Hmm I think this change will definitely impact pokemon usage on Shoddy, primarily Blissey and Hypno. With the best WishPasser in the game gone, I'm hoping this will lead to decreased Blissey usage; in fact, I'm starting to see a lot of Tentacruel take Blissey's role as a special sponge now.

 

[Bam]

But this topic is not about WHY they are being banned, it is about the effects that this ban will have.

So is this ban already in effect, set-in-stone going to be in effect soon, or are we just waiting to see whether the community finds the trade-offs of the ban worth it before it's even decided? Just asking.

I'm actually glad this topic was brought up - it hasn't been discussed to much outside of the Policy Review board. I personally wouldn't mind losing the event moves at all. I can only play WiFi, as Shoddy won't work on my computer, but since Shoddy is supposed to depict what is actually possible in-game (there should be a line drawn, however, between what was meant to be done and what can be done, i.e. Colin's wanting to allow mixed egg-move combinations), it shouldn't make a difference.

By far Blissey, Wobba, and Hypno will lose out on the most stuff. Losing Bliss will cost her a spot on a lot of teams (same for Hypno), and Wobba will just go back to being annoying rather than something that switches in and will automatically screw you over 100% of the time with Tickle/Pursuit. Salamence will also get hurt a bit (all those posts in the Salamence peer edit about WishMence, wasted!), but not nearly as much as I can't think of anybody who runs those sets.

I don't see much else coming out of this ban other than the effected Pokemon possibly losing a usage rank or two on Shoddy. Jirachi/Vaporeon/other Wisher usage may increase, but not really drastically enough to start metagaming against it imo.

 

[Taylor]

I think Blissey may take the fall on the ladder for this set-back to Gyarados, and possibly even Tyranitar. But as for being replaced as the 'special wall'? No.

 

[Pikachu of Doom]

I think Blissey may take the fall on the ladder for this set-back to Gyarados, and possibly even Tyranitar. But as for being replaced as the 'special wall'? No.

That much?

IMO Blissey took a hit but like Wobuffet it's not going to affect her much.

 

[umbarsc]

I didn't realize how much this affected me...

... Until I looked at UU. Well, I just lost Leech Seed Vileplume and Wish Hypno. Time to open the team builder.

 

[Green Mage]

This was an excellent idea. Anything that even slightly unbreaks Wobb is a blessing as far as i'm concerned.

As far as the metagame goes, I don't think it will change too much. Special attackers like specsmence and raikou are just as walled by softboiled bliss.

 

[Taylor]

That much?

IMO Blissey took a hit but like Wobuffet it's not going to affect her much.

I was expecting Tyranitar to outrun Blissey for third last May, let alone this June. This is because of Garchomp's impressive number on the weighted usage has come of Tyranitar's Sand Stream assistance, and I believe that with a full month of Tyranitar + Garchomp control, we will see Tyranitar exceed Blissey's usage count, claiming third place on the ladder respectively. However, I can't forget Gyarados, who is as impressive as ever scoring fourth on the ladder in May; and because Gyarados saw more play than Tyranitar, I expect him to tighten the gap between Blissey and itself.

This isn't just because of Blissey's relegation of the move Wish from its movepool.

 

[cim]

(moving post per warning)
Actually, Tangerine, I kind of _can't_ make a thread about it as I'm ICBB. So where else do I put this? It's not exactly off topic...

You've actually illustrated a decent point for me. If there's considerable enough disagreement in the community that the ban discuss thread would be a flame war, isn't that a decent demonstration that this isn't what people want? And if there's no agreement, shouldn't the default action be of "least harm"?

Why can't we discuss why this is a bad thing? It seems like with every controversial change I can never find the thread to discuss it.

I wish people didn't put all event moves on an equal plate. For example, the Wish moves are very well documented; people have gotten them from NYPC and everyone is happy. Tickle Wynaut is vague as hell and there is considerable doubt as to when that event even happened. As with (some guy on IRC), I seriously think that Event moves should not be put on an equal "let's ban them!" plate. Are details on events sketchy? Sometimes very much so. Should we cripple the metagame of ALL event moves because some are unlikely to have happened? That line of logic sounds bad to me.

So, in conclusion, we have mixed data on event moves. We shouldn't blanket ban them all because some details are sketchy.

I REALLY have to get around to setting up a Shoddy server.

 

[Tangerine]

If you want to discuss it, make a new thread about it.

The reason we don't want you to discuss it here is because then the "discussion" will just become a battle of opinions (which go nowhere, like abortion debates) since there is no "right" or "wrong", because people have different opinions about things.

Thus, we only want to discuss the effects this will have to the metagame, which is arguably a lot more interesting than reading the same debate for the millionth time.

 

[Endeby]

Vaporeon, Umbreaon and Jirachi usage will probably rise alot.

Tanks with no real recovery move will also fall i'm affraid:(

 

[Syberia]

I really don't think it will have much of an impact on Blissey usage. Even without Wish, there's still nothing that walls special attackers the way she does. Empoleon can't Roost, Cresselia can't counter Gengar and is fucked by Sandstorm, Celebi has too many weaknesses, Shaymin and Snorlax lack reliable recovery. It's not like Blissey lost its only form of recovery; it can still Softboiled, which is what I see most of them doing anyways.

 

[Caelum]

Why can't we discuss why this is a bad thing? It seems like with every controversial change I can never find the thread to discuss it.

I wish people didn't put all event moves on an equal plate. For example, the Wish moves are very well documented; people have gotten them from NYPC and everyone is happy. Tickle Wynaut is vague as hell and there is considerable doubt as to when that event even happened. As with (some guy on IRC), I seriously think that Event moves should not be put on an equal "let's ban them!" plate. Are details on events sketchy? Sometimes very much so. Should we cripple the metagame of ALL event moves because some are unlikely to have happened? That line of logic sounds bad to me.

So, in conclusion, we have mixed data on event moves. We shouldn't blanket ban them all because some details are sketchy.

I REALLY have to get around to setting up a Shoddy server.

Had to point out I 100% agree with this post. But anyway, now I'll answer the question at hand. What effect will it have? I'm just going down the event move list in the event move thread in C&C.

Blissey: I think this has been talked about endlessly. Wish Blissey was, arguably, the best Blissey set. Not only could she support the team by passing Wish's but, at least in my experience, Wish+Protect was actually a better recovery option than Softboiled. I suspect Blissey usage will take a big hit as people won't see it as being as useful. I'm not certain of this, but maybe this will lead to an increase of usage in Jirachi and Vaporeon as a Wish passer on a lot of teams. I also predict that Thunderwave Blissey, something that has fallen out of style because of Wish Bliss with Toxic, is going to make a big appearance again and hence probably Electivire usage will go up and maybe even in the use of Clerics. Also, physical walls without a recovery move will probably decrease a lot because now they can't rely on WishBliss to heal them.

Vileplume: Oddish losing Leech Seed is a pretty big hit for Vileplume. I suspect this will lead to an increase in Meganium usage for UU teams.

Wobbuffet: Wobbs losing Tickle is something that doesn't bother me because the circumstances of Tickle Wobbs are really sketchy, or at least I'm told. For this reason it seemed legitimate to ban Tickle on him, but anyway, I don't think this will effect his usage. Maybe it will decrease him slightly but I don't think it will impact him significantly.

Salamence: WishMence. Not a big loss in terms of DP, but to be honest, I've used him a time or two and he is not a bad Wisher at all. I don't think this will effect Mence's usage even slightly but I'm still going to miss WishMence. Plus, it was great to see "Salamence used Wish" on Shoddy and your opponent's response is "wtf."

In all honestly, I think this will negatively effect the metagame. Is it going to change everyone's teams? Probably not, but I feel that limiting a person's options only limits your options to build the best team possible. Getting a little off track, I guess I just don't see the point over banning something just because we aren't certain of it's IV distribution (Nature is a bit different to me) when IVs don't have a tremendous amount of influence on the stat anyway.

 

[Syberia]

Rapidash does not lose Baton Pass, as it was available to be SR'ed for in Pokemon XD.

And exactly what, might I ask, will take Blissey's place now that it can't Wish? Maybe Jirachi's use will go up some, but I expect Blissey to stay right where it is, and do what it's always done. As long as it only has one weakness, which pretty much only Lucario can exploit successfully from the special side, and some form of recovery, it remains the best special wall in the game.

Maybe Jirachi (for Wish) plus Milotic together could do much the same thing, but I can't see this effecting Blissey much.

 

[Caelum]

Rapidash does not lose Baton Pass, as it was available to be SR'ed for in Pokemon XD.

Thank you for correcting me, I misunderstood apprently and edited my original post.

And exactly what, might I ask, will take Blissey's place now that it can't Wish? Maybe Jirachi's use will go up some, but I expect Blissey to stay right where it is, and do what it's always done. As long as it only has one weakness, which pretty much only Lucario can exploit successfully from the special side, and some form of recovery, it remains the best special wall in the game.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I wasn't implying that Blissey would ever be replaced as a special wall because either way she still is the best special wall. I believe, although you may disagree with me, that many teams used Blissey solely because of her abilities to Wish Pass. Players, like myself, who play on resistances and smart switching for our defense rather than relying on walls aren't going to have as much use for Blissey since she can't Wish-Pass to other members of our team. I probably won't use Blissey anymore because that is why I used her almost exclusively. Obviously, Blissey will remain incredibly popular (when I meant "big hit" I meant probably dropping a few slots but not falling off the map) as a special wall but I just think her usage will decrease among players like myself that wanted her more for Wish support than anything else. I'll probably start using Wish Jirachi but, as we all know, she's no where near as capable as a wall for Wish passing as Blissey was.


Maybe Jirachi (for Wish) plus Milotic together could do much the same thing, but I can't see this effecting Blissey much.

Already explained my point about Blissey usage going down a bit so I won't re-hash. I have to say though, even Jirachi+Milotic, while not a bad combination, would probably still be inferior as a walling team than just running plain old Softboiled Blissey.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Posting to say that I updated the OP with the current-final list of moves that have been banned from ShoddyBattle's Official Server. According to Amazing Ampharos, that list is good but he and I both encourage you to look through and see if there are any errors or omissions.

edit- Darkrai gets to keep Spacial Rend and Roar of Time.

Also,

If there's considerable enough disagreement in the community that the ban discuss thread would be a flame war, isn't that a decent demonstration that this isn't what people want? And if there's no agreement, shouldn't the default action be of "least harm"?

Why can't we discuss why this is a bad thing? It seems like with every controversial change I can never find the thread to discuss it.

I don't have the final say, but as long as you can come up with a legitimate and concrete reason why this could be bad for the health of the metagame, I would love to hear it. I personally think it would be good for this topic and would certainly be in line with the kind of discussion that was expected here. As long as you can keep it to "This is bad because if this ban happens, then <terrible event x goes here> logically follows because of <reason y that exists in pokemon>", and not "this is bad because i hate colin and this is unfair and i dont see any reason for it" because that is obviously going to be moderated.

"there's considerable enough disagreement in the community" is not a valid argument because it is not concrete. But, if you can find some actual proof that this may be "bad", please post. I'm looking for actual evidence, here. If you can't come up with something that you're sure will knock our socks off, it would probably be best to keep your opinion to yourself since it is a very thin line to walk along.

Let me be clear(er)- This is not an argument about the ban itself, it is about what changes will come as a result of it. Stay within this guideline and this will be the thread in which to discuss it.

 

[Great Sage]

That Spinda lost Sing hardly matters; it gets Hypnosis already, which has 5% more accuracy and 5 more PP.

Now, let's get on with the more useful Pokemon...

Yes, Blissey will certainly suffer now that its most common set is void, but it still has the best overall special defensive stats of any Pokemon in the game and keeps other useful moves, such as Aromatherapy, Thunder Wave, Sing, and Stealth Rock. It is more vulnerable to Pursuit now, but it does only take about 60% from a Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit, which is a lot better than most other special walls can say. Things like Choice Scarf Gengar without Explosion still aren't going anywhere with it around.

Wobbuffet will still be controversial even with Tickle banned. In Jumpman16's thread, TAY posted a log against a renowned battler where he used a Wobbuffet without Tickle to set up his other Pokemon, and even after making quite a few mistakes, he still won handily.

That Salamence gets Wish taken away isn't too much of a detraction. It has Roost to heal itself anyways, and in a game full of Stealth Rock and Ice attacks, it often hates switching in and out or doesn't have time to use the Wish for itself.

Gallade doesn't use Wish much, just for some novelty Bulk Up sets. It probably won't notice that Wish is gone.

I'm not too experienced with UU, so I'll stop there.

 

[goldursaring]

The list seems accurate, did a quick glance, nothing glaringly missing. I'm inclined to agree the most dramatic change is to Blissey, but she probably will recover given her other options. Blissey was one of the more effective Wish Pokemon, so I think Wish will see a decline. Alternatives will be used, but I don't know how many are as effective as Blissey in the circumstances.

[size=-2]There seems to be debate about if some of the Pokemon themselves happened or did not. These have been documented, I would argue Japanese documentation has been more successful then anything done stateside or in Europe, the question has always been, where the proof is. To say there is no documentation of Japanese events, is quite ridiculous. I've done a fair amount of research and always kept my sources open (at the end of my FAQ). The question isn't about if they happened but the documentation of the actual Pokemon distributed, which is extremely limited.

I cite
http://pf.ksrn.net
because that leads to
http://pf.ksrn.net/game/ruby_sapphire/special_pokemon.html

I cite (I know it's a wiki)
http://www.atwiki.jp/
because that leads to
http://www18.atwiki.jp/pokemondp/pages/144.html[/size]

 

[sanjay120]

I don't have the final say, but as long as you can come up with a legitimate and concrete reason why this could be bad for the health of the metagame, I would love to hear it.

Diversity is good, removing Wish a legitimate Wishpasser reduces number of Wishpassers, reducing the number of Wishpassers makes some physical walls less viable, which decreases diversity.

I'm pretty sure we settled the whole controversy over the possible natures of WishBliss. We know what it can have. Why a blanket ban? Why just things we're not sure about, like Tickle Wobby?

 

[cim]

I don't have the final say, but as long as you can come up with a legitimate and concrete reason why this could be bad for the health of the metagame, I would love to hear it. I personally think it would be good for this topic and would certainly be in line with the kind of discussion that was expected here. As long as you can keep it to "This is bad because if this ban happens, then <terrible event x goes here> logically follows because of <reason y that exists in pokemon>", and not "this is bad because i hate colin and this is unfair and i dont see any reason for it" because that is obviously going to be moderated.

"there's considerable enough disagreement in the community" is not a valid argument because it is not concrete. But, if you can find some actual proof that this may be "bad", please post. I'm looking for actual evidence, here. If you can't come up with something that you're sure will knock our socks off, it would probably be best to keep your opinion to yourself since it is a very thin line to walk along.

Let me be clear(er)- This is not an argument about the ban itself, it is about what changes will come as a result of it. Stay within this guideline and this will be the thread in which to discuss it.

That's not the point of the ban though, so why should that secondary issue be in this discussion? If the only reason not to restrict move x and ban move y is because it might hurt the metagame, then that would be a good discussion, but that's not the issue at all with the bans. Pokémon exist with some of the event moves, so just because some moves have sketchy information doesn't mean that we sohuld ban them all. That's the issue, not whether or not people will mind (which I will, I like Wish Hypno) if it affects the metagame.

As for how the metagame is affected, Blissey will drop very slightly. I don't think much as people don't use the fat egg SOLELY to pass Wishes. I mean, her job is mostly to wall Special shit, not support the team, though that's a great bonus.

UU Special things will hurt more.

 

[dingusxavier]

I am sadface about this, for my cherished Wishmence is no more. Was that really necessary? He wasn't the biggest threat ever. Meh.

I'm also going to miss Hypno in UU, though I don't think that the metagame will change too much, as IMO Grumpig walls special attacks just as well with the CM-resttalk set.

Other walls that have no recovery, like Steelix, may fall in usage as a result of this, though.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think Blissey may take the fall on the ladder for this set-back to Gyarados, and possibly even Tyranitar. But as for being replaced as the 'special wall'? No.

Blissey may be losing Wish, but wobby losing tickle will help bliss as well.

About protect, there are certainly many other moves blissey could run over it and it certainly loses a lot of use with the loss of wish-- but I think if protect was really that good, and really helped blissey as much as people make it out to have, I think people will run it despite loss of wish.