Serious Ethics of euthanasia

[blarajan]

Very frequently there comes a time when medical intervention just isn't working anymore. It's impossible to save every patient; some will just inevitably die. At that point, the manner of death is the important part. Frequently, doctors will withhold food, water, or other necessary life preserving items from patients when it's their time, leading to their death. In some other states, doctors will help them pick and choose the time of their death by actively assisting their suicides. Do you think any of these are acceptable? What is your stance on euthanasia, or on a doctor's involvement with it? Assume that individuals asking to kill themselves are mentally cognizant, have deliberated intensely, and very much want to do so. Please consider the amount of pain a patient might be undergoing or otherwise.

Stance on passive euthanasia? Active euthanasia? An individual's ability right to suicide? (maybe a little edgy) Have at it.

If you have 80 minutes to kill, here's a very enlightening video on the subject.

 

[Professor Science]

I personally believe that euthanasia is a good thing, assuming the patient, or their family if the patient is unable to do so, consents to it. Many people who suffer from slow and painful illnesses and diseases, such as cancer, are kept alive in hospitals despite that they might be in constant agony for months on end, or in a coma, with no hope of recovery. In circumstances like these, I believe that they should be allowed to die if they want to, and should be assisted if they wish. I do not think that starving patients is ever the right thing to do, even if they are in a coma- injecting them is far quicker and humane.

 

[Woodchuck]

Way to respond to a clearly seriously intended thread, guys.
I have never had a particularly strong opinion about euthanasia, actually. Maybe it's because most sources of my beliefs when I was young (my parents, the church, etc.) never really touched the issue, so I haven't been preconditioned to chose one way or the other yet. I've never felt that suicide was personally acceptable; I've never seen death as something to speed up. However, I understand that some people experience pain or disease that I have never experienced and, until I would be in those situations, would never quite know what my decision would be.

I think the idea of existing without being the same person, without retaining the thoughts that make us who we are is terrifying to many people, and I can see why people choose euthanasia or specify DO NOT RESUSCITATE. It's because, without their brain, the person they originally were no longer lives, and they don't want to leave behind the travesty that was their body.

If I was ever brain dead, maybe euthanasia + organ donation would be the best course... though that's not something I'm thinking about much right now.

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

It's pretty much what a forum has come to lately, it's pretty much the reason why I don't post in these types of threads because they're mostly filled with stupid posts and really bad jokes.

Anyway, my views on this are very mixed. Normally, I think suicide is stupid and I think the people who commit it and attempt it are idiots, but this is different. It is putting them out of their misery and ending their pain, but I also see it as them giving up. I would like to think if I was in their shoes, I would fight until the very end. I mean people have came back from the the brink death to defeat their illness, so yeah I'm not really sure. Though, I do agree with woodchuck if they are brain dead.

 

[Brammi]

I would take it seriously but Euthanasia as an issue is pretty damn clear cut.

What possible point is there to keeping someone who wants to die alive? (Even Suicide)

In the case of medical euthanasia, if someone is unable to function without life support the not pulling the plug is completely an utterly stupid. If it is the family's decision then it is among the most selfish things anyone can do. So what if people sometimes make miracle recoveries. If they want to die, let them. They are in pain, they don't want to keep going through it then why make them suffer on tiny probabilities.

The bottom line is that if someone doesn't support euthanasia then they also don't support any for of human autonomy.

There is literally nothing to discuss.

(I suppose we could discuss suicide, but what use is someone that doesn't want to live? They take up resources while they remain alive, if someone wants to commit suicide then what kind of selfish prick that wants to stop them puts their own happiness over someone elses?)

 

[blarajan]

It's not what's always just an illness though. Frequently it's an incurable disease that WILL cripple you, WILL put you in agonizing pain, and WILL kill you. Under those circumstances do you consider wanting to end it giving up? I would really recommend you watching that video, though it is a bit sad.

 

[Layell]

A recent letter to the editor in my city rag mentioned a person who wished to die with dignity. It's an interesting and noble idea because I do believe you should have the right to wish for the end, but the practical part of me also asks where is the line drawn. Will someone who finds out the have Alzheimer's wish to die before they forget their loved ones? Or should that be left to more physically and mentally disabling illness and injuries. I don't like the term slippery slope, but people have different ideas of what "the end" looks like.

 

[JimBob]

There can't be an absolute line. The line has to be drawn for each individual. Every person should be able to say whether they want to live or die.

 

[Stratos]

Are we talking assisted suicide or unplug?

If we're talking the latter, then yeah i can see why people would say that and I frankly dont have anything wrong with it I doubt anyone does end discussion

But assisted suicide is a HELL NO to me. Suicide is gruesome and painful and I want to keep it that way. Once upon a time I was depressed (prolly just being a little bitch but irrelevant) and seriously contemplated suicide. The #1 thing that deterred me from the option wasn't that my family would be messed up or anything, it was "jesus christ suicide kinda just sucks to do, i mean do you know how much that would /hurt?/" And no, not everyone going through depression is gonna commit suicide, and suicide is awful, so let's not make it easier.

 

[Solace]

Assisted suicide isn't offered to those who are depressed, it's for those with painful terminal illnesses that will cause them to die a slow, painful death, so I'm confused as to why you say that you're against it because of those who want to commit suicide due to depression? It's used for the terminally ill, when there is no way around the fact that they will die at that point, so it's just about reducing the pain for them. Suicide is an awful thing, but if your options are "die slowly and painfully because of an illness" or "have a shorter death that is less painful" I think that there's a legitimate reason for the latter. There are many crippling diseases that just make life painful and horrible for the individual, and in that case they should be able to choose if they want to die peacefully and with the least amount of pain or if they want to continue on, knowing that inevitably they'll die, but more painfully. I think that giving those people who are suffering a way out is a good thing.

 

[Stratos]

Assisted suicide isn't offered to those who are depressed, it's for those with painful terminal illnesses that will cause them to die a slow, painful death, so I'm confused as to why you say that you're against it because of those who want to commit suicide due to depression? It's used for the terminally ill, when there is no way around the fact that they will die at that point, so it's just about reducing the pain for them. Suicide is an awful thing, but if your options are "die slowly and painfully because of an illness" or "have a shorter death that is less painful" I think that there's a legitimate reason for the latter. There are many crippling diseases that just make life painful and horrible for the individual, and in that case they should be able to choose if they want to die peacefully and with the least amount of pain or if they want to continue on, knowing that inevitably they'll die, but more painfully. I think that giving those people who are suffering a way out is a good thing.

I'm sorry that's what i was referring to as "unplug" but there are people who say easy deaths should be provided to depressed people

(I suppose we could discuss suicide, but what use is someone that doesn't want to live? They take up resources while they remain alive, if someone wants to commit suicide then what kind of selfish prick that wants to stop them puts their own happiness over someone elses?)

It's ideas like these which i was responding to with the bulk of my post, Solace.

Oh and brammi if you actually believe that then you are a sick individual. Just sick.

 

[mattj]

fuck you blarajan i'll die if i want to you can't tell me what to do

That's kind of how I see it. As long as other people aren't getting hurt, let them do what they want. But personally, and from a religious standpoint, I can't agree with it. Like, I'd never resort to it, and it always pains me to see anyone anywhere resort to it. It always seems like there is a better way.

But I don't see how my personal feelings, and religious beliefs could justify criminalizing an act that that harms no one else.

 

[yee]

We actually had a talk about abortion in philosophy class which was pretty applicable.

The arguments we were reading about for abortion were basically trying to boil down what made it OK or not to kill something- consciousness, intelligence, future of value etc. One used a terminally ill patient as an example for what it means for a living being to value its future- if the patient knows they only have pain ahead of them and doesn't want to keep living it seems OK to pull the plug. However if you have a suicidal person with decent physical health it doesn't seem OK- even if he doesn't value his future now it seems almost sure to us that he will experience happiness again at some point and that it's morally right to help ensure he can. The opposing arguments for both sides of abortion agreed to try and break down how to define when killing was OK and for now I think unless there's no reason a person wants to keep living through horrible pain, if they have absolutely no chance to get better it's not obviously wrong to kill them.

If someone is in a coma and there's no will saying to pull the plug it shouldn't be done blindly and if the terminally ill patient consciously wants to live through his pain until his death it seems to wrong to not let them. I think this issue has been handled fairly well, for an area of improvement I'd look for better ways to identify possible suicide victims and help them.

 

[More Cowbell]

It can be quite a difficult topic, but I'm very much in favor of euthanasia. Someone should be able to put a stop to their life whenever they want. There are exceptions, of course (say the patient is in a mental condition which makes them unable to think straight, and things along those lines), but since the option of euthanasia is only presented to those in terrible conditions, I think euthanasia is a very suitable way out. It's controlled, too, so that means everything can be much cleaner and more regulated. Also, euthanasia is never a decision you make overnight.

Is committing suicide illegal? I don't think it is, so why would assisted suicide be? The person asking to die obviously has their motives to die, and the person helping with the suicide is only carrying out the person's last wish.

Besides, who are people to tell other people can't die? I know it will hurt to friends and family, but in the end, it is the decision of the person looking to commit suicide.

 

[Zacchaeus]

If a person doesn't want to live, it's illogical for them to be alive. If they are a vegetable and failed to express their wishes about life support while they were in good health, it's up to the person's family. Why does this need to be complicated?

 

[capefeather]

I see issues like this as a good reason not to frame everything in terms of [negative] rights. Some people are talking about suicide and euthanasia as if one or the other doesn't hurt anyone else. Maybe if that person were completely isolated, that might be true... and said person would obviously not have the option of euthanasia. Framed in terms of [negative] rights, suicide might be perfectly fine and even equivalent to euthanasia. Yet, when someone reaches out and helps the suicidal person want to have a future again, then typically the latter is thankful. This isn't even getting into how people who care about the suicidal person would react. This tells me that something is wrong with framing suicide as "what someone wants".

Euthanasia is a pretty tricky subject because a lot of the reasoning for it looks a lot like typical reasoning behind suicides. Yet, euthanasia generally involves the concerns of everyone relevant to the subject, whereas suicide typically doesn't. Everyone has to come to a conclusion as to whether they (including the subject) are better off with the subject dead or alive for however much time there is left. Maybe leaving the subject alive would leave people worse off. Maybe the opposite would be the case. This also applies to how subjects are killed off. Does it hurt the patient if he/she isn't provided with certain life-preserving resources before death?

 

[mattj]

Why does this need to be complicated?

Because no one likes to see other people die. Especially not helpless, old people. For most people, opposing euthanasia is just a natural, emotional reaction.

 

[Jorgen]

I'm glad the issue of depression has been brought up here. That's a big consideration that many often don't think of when considering the issue of euthanasia and assisted suicide. For example, in this post:

If a person doesn't want to live, it's illogical for them to be alive. If they are a vegetable and failed to express their wishes about life support while they were in good health, it's up to the person's family. Why does this need to be complicated?

The thing is, a depressed person doesn't really have the proper faculty to decide on whether they want to take their own life. Making it easier for somebody to just die rather than work through something that's entirely possible to work through is a travesty.

Personally, I'm not totally against assisted suicide, I mean there's plenty of situations where people could make this decision since otherwise they'd be incurable vegetables or in nothing but truly agonizing pain for the rest of their shortened lives. However, some pretty strict safeguards have to be put in place so that we're not making it easy for troubled people to kill themselves instead of seeking help. One of the tougher issues I see, though, is the specifics of these safeguards, such as where to draw the line between "objective grounds for rational decision to undergo euthanasia" and "bad thing that can thrust person into irrational depression".

 

[PK Gaming]

It's not something I really think about because its too depressing. One of the worst things about it is not necessarily the concept itself, but the influence it has on the way so many people, seriously the debate has always annoyed the hell out of me. I guess I agree with Solace where euthanasia is acceptable to me if someones living in a vegetative state or suffering with an inordinate amount of pain (like cluster headaches level pain)

So yeah, I support euthanasia, though definitely in moderation.

off topic: What was that one book we had to read in grade 8 that subtly dealt with euthanasia? It's weird that I bring it up now but for the life of me I can't remember it, but its on the tip of my tongue. It was about a group of people that lived in a monochrome world and people were occasionally euthanized. I think the MC was a young boy and there was a sled at the end?

 

[fairytale]

The Giver?

 

[X5Dragon]

No to assisted suicide, depends on family wishes to extend a (functional dead) patients life artificially or not.

 

[DM]

Here is what I said in Eagle's short-lived debate thread (and I obviously stand by it):

“I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.” - Robert Frost

Mr. Frost sums up my opinions on this topic quite succinctly. I am 100% for assisted suicide, and I feel that Dr. Kevorkian was doing good work that was helping people.

I almost just said "with the proper safeguards in place, assisted suicide could become a widely accepted practice," but I realized I don't even believe that. There should be no blockage. If I wanted to right now, I could get in my car and drive down the street into oncoming traffic at 80mph, and there's little anyone could do to stop me. Or, I could drive up to the Skyway, get out of my car and jump off to my death. Or, if I'm patient, I could borrow a gun from a friend (I know plenty of hunters) and shoot myself.

My point here is that if someone is going to kill themselves, there is absolutely nothing anyone else can do about it once they've made that decision. If a grown adult (okay, one safeguard: don't allow minors this right) wants to end their own life, I say we must respect that decision. Rather than forcing them to do it in a manner that A. is violent toward their body, B. is extremely traumatic to their loved ones, and C. creates work for others (firemen, policemen, paramedics), they should be allowed to end their own life in a controlled environment according to their own wishes.

In the health care proxy that I recently executed, I have a living will stating that should I be in a situation where I am beyond saving (according to two doctors) and am only kept alive with feeding tubes or artificial breathing, I wish to be taken off those life-preserving measures so that I may die. How is assisted suicide any different for someone who is dying of a disease that makes every waking second for them a painful, agonizing eternity? The compassionate resolution would be to let them end their own suffering, however they wish.

Suicide is a very touchy subject. Please do not read this post and think I am taking a flippant attitude when it comes to people killing themselves. I have know multiple people who have killed themselves, and numerous others that have tried. But I have formed these views over the years of watching the world, and I do not come to these conclusions lightly.

 

[superbadd]

The cognitive foundations of death are primordially woven in depths of most jejune individuals as a daunting termination of their own mediocre lives, in others, they perceive it as the dancing lesson to the final masquerade of eternal bliss. Morality is perhaps the most vague term of our generation. Often, the perception of "right" or "wrong" is drilled into an individuals disposition through volumes of bombardment; vocal chastising(domestic) and mass media conformation. With that said, morals are simply a set of opinions. To some, they religiously cling on to them as if it were their dying breath while completely oblivious to its subjective interpretation. What should be done about euthanasia is entirely dependent on the situation at hand. How it affects the individuals who are mobile/alive is what matters. Appeasing to those who have the prerogative and can empathetically comprehend the enduring amelioration and or the possible side affects of "pulling the plug" would be the prudent action. The system as of now, is fine.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

this is a religious issue.

literally, i mean. those of us who think life is a Super Special Gift given by a Magical Creator Who Loves Us All will see suicide as a crime of the highest degree, while those of us who see life as a coincidence without inherent meaning have no problem permitting people end theirs on a whim.

obviously it would be better if we could find cures to terminal illnesses -- but that's a long-term solution. the short-term solution to reduce suffering is euthanasia. (then again, "life is a terminal illness")

 

[iDunno]

It's not something I really think about because its too depressing. One of the worst things about it is not necessarily the concept itself, but the influence it has on the way so many people, seriously the debate has always annoyed the hell out of me. I guess I agree with Solace where euthanasia is acceptable to me if someones living in a vegetative state or suffering with an inordinate amount of pain (like cluster headaches level pain)

So yeah, I support euthanasia, though definitely in moderation.

off topic: What was that one book we had to read in grade 8 that subtly dealt with euthanasia? It's weird that I bring it up now but for the life of me I can't remember it, but its on the tip of my tongue. It was about a group of people that lived in a monochrome world and people were occasionally euthanized. I think the MC was a young boy and there was a sled at the end?

That wasn't euthanasia that was eugenics. They killed people who could no longer work as well as unauthorized children and children who did not meet the minimum weight and size requirements.