it was just sort of the vibe of the pop in
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NOC eli loves matrices game thread [Game Over, Town Win!]
- Thread starter Nuxl
- Start date
it was just the vibe, man
just something about it
just something about it
we love specificity
spelling this one out:
the big thing here is obviously the two EOD wagons. generally when you have two slots in contention for elimination like that, w/ the resultant redflip, it's natural to want to read the opposing wagon as unaligned. i think things like caff self-presing there, along with the quick build, can point to that (you can also see where Caff had been trying unsuccessfully to build other CWs earlier). i think some things problematizing commitment to a fully unpartnered world are... well, the stated issues with OM's own slot for starters lol. also, though (and i was getting at this earlier) it's like... you have two of the more critical votes on either wagon (AG and LadySal) done under coercion, Vizh's long-awaited vote failing to put plur on his wagon, a self-vote from Laurel, and two absent non-voters. in a lot of other worlds having such close wagons would be a dream, but there's a lot here that makes them less scrutable when it comes to OM. i think partner equity dipped after Caff's flip for sure, but like i said idt it does much to clean up OM's slot for me. even if we're going on wagon purity, the foundations of both wagons are p decent (unless you have dagger-eye laser-vision tunnel goggles on Someone) - which leaves me at kind of unpaired, not fully sold, still trusting enough of my 100% record on OM to put stock in what i saw and didn't see D1.
re: rea/hydrœigœn
kinda minor but still legible imo, rea makes some early reads in #285, gut red on HH's entrance for being awkward - which again isn't my favorite read basis, but he pulls it again w/ LS and qualifies it as a thread read, &evaluates the slots alongside e/o before settling on HH. it's fakeable but like, HH straight up does not acknowledge this on re-entry, which would make for some pretty bad theater in a world where scum has daychat--even in an instance where maybe rea tried to initiate a distancing interaction and HH just dropped the ball on selling it, for rea to look the other way and park on CB instead - the partner who has had more threadpresence - it feels like a clumsy teamfit.
re: m24/vizh
i think m24's vote &subsequent unvote on vizh (#428, #461) reads less as soft distancing and more as a natural response to waning faith in psy's push - which can come from either vill or wolf here for either slot, but never as a team. it's coming off the heels of psy's pivot from his plur-securing vote on Caff to his vanity on Vizh - if all three of caff/vizh/m24 are wolves then prolonging this interaction (vizh & m24 sustain a back-and-forth for the next couple pages), then sheeping psy (who is necessarily villager in this arrangement) doesn't do anything to pull wagon momentum away from the team. instead, when psy swings over to celever, m24 is actively talking psy down, to the point where v!psy is able to entertain votes on caff & m24 as well, with izh sitting idly by, and then they leave thread. this is problematized a bit by vizh's adherence to Not Using His Vote (which you saw me address last game), so yeah. less partner equity.
re: om/caff
the big thing here is obviously the two EOD wagons. generally when you have two slots in contention for elimination like that, w/ the resultant redflip, it's natural to want to read the opposing wagon as unaligned. i think things like caff self-presing there, along with the quick build, can point to that (you can also see where Caff had been trying unsuccessfully to build other CWs earlier). i think some things problematizing commitment to a fully unpartnered world are... well, the stated issues with OM's own slot for starters lol. also, though (and i was getting at this earlier) it's like... you have two of the more critical votes on either wagon (AG and LadySal) done under coercion, Vizh's long-awaited vote failing to put plur on his wagon, a self-vote from Laurel, and two absent non-voters. in a lot of other worlds having such close wagons would be a dream, but there's a lot here that makes them less scrutable when it comes to OM. i think partner equity dipped after Caff's flip for sure, but like i said idt it does much to clean up OM's slot for me. even if we're going on wagon purity, the foundations of both wagons are p decent (unless you have dagger-eye laser-vision tunnel goggles on Someone) - which leaves me at kind of unpaired, not fully sold, still trusting enough of my 100% record on OM to put stock in what i saw and didn't see D1.
re: rea/hydrœigœn
kinda minor but still legible imo, rea makes some early reads in #285, gut red on HH's entrance for being awkward - which again isn't my favorite read basis, but he pulls it again w/ LS and qualifies it as a thread read, &evaluates the slots alongside e/o before settling on HH. it's fakeable but like, HH straight up does not acknowledge this on re-entry, which would make for some pretty bad theater in a world where scum has daychat--even in an instance where maybe rea tried to initiate a distancing interaction and HH just dropped the ball on selling it, for rea to look the other way and park on CB instead - the partner who has had more threadpresence - it feels like a clumsy teamfit.
re: m24/vizh
i think m24's vote &subsequent unvote on vizh (#428, #461) reads less as soft distancing and more as a natural response to waning faith in psy's push - which can come from either vill or wolf here for either slot, but never as a team. it's coming off the heels of psy's pivot from his plur-securing vote on Caff to his vanity on Vizh - if all three of caff/vizh/m24 are wolves then prolonging this interaction (vizh & m24 sustain a back-and-forth for the next couple pages), then sheeping psy (who is necessarily villager in this arrangement) doesn't do anything to pull wagon momentum away from the team. instead, when psy swings over to celever, m24 is actively talking psy down, to the point where v!psy is able to entertain votes on caff & m24 as well, with izh sitting idly by, and then they leave thread. this is problematized a bit by vizh's adherence to Not Using His Vote (which you saw me address last game), so yeah. less partner equity.
&against my better judgment, dipping my toes in:
I don't think threadbloat is conducive to that, and I don't think doming the way you two have been is conducive to that.
What's not going to help anyone find anyone, though, is flooding thread with the whole back and forth. Like, if you really want to go for a sweep here, it's not gonna happen by going at each other's throats.
i do think part of what's unfolding here between you two comes from like... one, The Obvious, yeah your playstyle doesn't really jive with a lot of people. Which isn't a moral judgment or anything, it's just what it is. But also, yeah, I think you're right to bring up Cool Weapon here bc I think the only reason we were half as successful as we were was bc we didn't want a town unit to throw away voting power under the banner of Policy in a situation where it would have been extremely abusable by wolves, essentially a free mislunch. I think it took a concerted effort to ask "Even if we disagree, do we believe that you believe what you're saying?" and that meant slowing down, setting immediate feelings aside at some points, and trying to work things through. It took a commitment not just to chopping wolves, but to finding town.
I don't think threadbloat is conducive to that, and I don't think doming the way you two have been is conducive to that.
It's true here that like... vills want to make themselves legible - but communication takes effort from all interlocutors. I think Cel's reasons for suspecting you are pretty intelligible from the outside-looking-in, and I get why it'd be especially compelling from his POV (alongside the timeline on that EOD trajectory, I think it also makes a lot of sense that v!Cel sees that earlier vote from Psy onto w!Caff as keeping the fake wagon from becoming a real wagon by pivoting and securing Cel's wagons over both Caff's and Psy's). I have a harder time, in part bc of stuff like this, which just feels weird between partners (like, as w/ that earlier instance between m24/vizh i guess?? you could argue it was some kind of clumsy theater? but occam's razor just says vulnerable wolf was trying to avoid an interaction with vocal&volatile town).
What's not going to help anyone find anyone, though, is flooding thread with the whole back and forth. Like, if you really want to go for a sweep here, it's not gonna happen by going at each other's throats.
i'm going to shower & get ready & try to quickly run through my stuff on lady before heading out
i'll try to double back over some other things that stuck out to me in all the fuss too
in case i'm stretched for time: OM please give me literally anything to find you as town with here. i get things are busy & i'm not asking for tryhard/threadcamping levels here but like, as it stands you're just setting off alarms for me & i'd very much not like to find my way back on you before DL
i'll try to double back over some other things that stuck out to me in all the fuss too
in case i'm stretched for time: OM please give me literally anything to find you as town with here. i get things are busy & i'm not asking for tryhard/threadcamping levels here but like, as it stands you're just setting off alarms for me & i'd very much not like to find my way back on you before DL
vote ls
Yeah sorry it took a bit,
Main takeaway from the D1 vote is the current organization is most likely two maf on the OM train and one off, which I personally split into the psy/schia and vizh/LS. While I initially believed that the most likely outcome was that one of psy/schia were scum, both their contributions and general vibe make me tilt more towards the vizh/LS camp. Can't remember the exact post where it was said, but iirc at one point someone mentionned Caff getting stressed because of tied wagon making him die, Vizh finally chose the wagon benefitting Caff 5 minutes before EoD, which I feel like if they were town they would've at least put the effort in to choose one earlier and justify it better.
So overall imo, Vizh>LS in terms of scumread
This is basically what my thought process at the time was
So now that psy's off the Vizh train, I'm fully confident in it
What made you flip?
Townlean
Aura - Their vote felt clearly progressive and made sense, and they've been contributive to Town when they're able to post. Mainly the wagon but still.
Celever - Probably town just based on thread presence. Very solver-y posts that seem hunting and not JUST content creation for its sake. Plus the Psy interactions feel Towny? I would be kinda peeved to have Celever bring bullying up specifically to help justify a Wagon, so it feels Town.
M24 - They have reads, that while I agreed with more at the start of the day, they’re good reads that they’ve been consistent on and I can at least track their progression in a way that makes sense. Combined with their Caff vote, and the timing and sticking to it, it feels more Towny, especially given they were around closer to EoD.
Mixed
Psy - I honestly think Psy is probably town, but if Schia flips Town, then I think Psy’s Scum equity goes up a lot. I spoke about them more at length in relation to Schia (who I think has the most dichotomatic relationship with Psy) in a previous post. Psy’s EoD was bad, but their posting and interactions have felt like Town Psy. I said this before but Schia Town -> Psy is probably smart. I think Schia probably isn’t Town though.
Hydro - It’s Hydro. None of their few posts have felt really good or like attempts to solve, and are almost all just based on vibes with very little new content other than “Psy/Celever T/T”. It’s just kinda odd.
OM - The OM content we have is pretty Null as is, but there’s also very very little of it. Schia had their read on OM, and they were the counter wagon but still didn’t vote and I honestly do not know how to sort it in a productive way so for now, Mixed but closer to Scum.
Scumlean
LS - Definitely my weakest Scumlean, but: Caff distances from LS, they still vote together. Their progression was okay, but in a possibly faked way? Combined with their contributions feeling a little more sparse than Cool Weapon and some of their reads being just vibechecks (Hydro in town?), putting Psy/Celever into literally the same slot, reading them together, saying they should stay. My weakest Scumlean but I don’t trust their posts.
realiti/Laurel - I have these two slots together for somewhat obvious reasons? If one is Scum I think the other is probably Town because I don’t imagine a team would both try to do the same thing. They both voted in a way that in realiti’s case eliminated Caff, and in Laurel’s didn’t help Caff, but several of us have established it doesn’t clear you to vote Caff (or yourself). Both have been generally unhelpful and pushy with little to no “good” solver-y gameplay.
Schia - Outlined this in a previous post and it hasn’t changed. Schia’s pushing OM based on OM’s activity meta fitting Schia’s Scum meta, Schia’s graph which feels like content creation for content creation’s sake (which is also part of Schia’s Scum meta). Ultimately Schia’s posts were much better until Caff gets at risk and then OM gets flash wagoned in an attempt to protect him, and his posts D2 just are bad. My most likely Scum.
Aura - Their vote felt clearly progressive and made sense, and they've been contributive to Town when they're able to post. Mainly the wagon but still.
Celever - Probably town just based on thread presence. Very solver-y posts that seem hunting and not JUST content creation for its sake. Plus the Psy interactions feel Towny? I would be kinda peeved to have Celever bring bullying up specifically to help justify a Wagon, so it feels Town.
M24 - They have reads, that while I agreed with more at the start of the day, they’re good reads that they’ve been consistent on and I can at least track their progression in a way that makes sense. Combined with their Caff vote, and the timing and sticking to it, it feels more Towny, especially given they were around closer to EoD.
Mixed
Psy - I honestly think Psy is probably town, but if Schia flips Town, then I think Psy’s Scum equity goes up a lot. I spoke about them more at length in relation to Schia (who I think has the most dichotomatic relationship with Psy) in a previous post. Psy’s EoD was bad, but their posting and interactions have felt like Town Psy. I said this before but Schia Town -> Psy is probably smart. I think Schia probably isn’t Town though.
Hydro - It’s Hydro. None of their few posts have felt really good or like attempts to solve, and are almost all just based on vibes with very little new content other than “Psy/Celever T/T”. It’s just kinda odd.
OM - The OM content we have is pretty Null as is, but there’s also very very little of it. Schia had their read on OM, and they were the counter wagon but still didn’t vote and I honestly do not know how to sort it in a productive way so for now, Mixed but closer to Scum.
Scumlean
LS - Definitely my weakest Scumlean, but: Caff distances from LS, they still vote together. Their progression was okay, but in a possibly faked way? Combined with their contributions feeling a little more sparse than Cool Weapon and some of their reads being just vibechecks (Hydro in town?), putting Psy/Celever into literally the same slot, reading them together, saying they should stay. My weakest Scumlean but I don’t trust their posts.
realiti/Laurel - I have these two slots together for somewhat obvious reasons? If one is Scum I think the other is probably Town because I don’t imagine a team would both try to do the same thing. They both voted in a way that in realiti’s case eliminated Caff, and in Laurel’s didn’t help Caff, but several of us have established it doesn’t clear you to vote Caff (or yourself). Both have been generally unhelpful and pushy with little to no “good” solver-y gameplay.
Schia - Outlined this in a previous post and it hasn’t changed. Schia’s pushing OM based on OM’s activity meta fitting Schia’s Scum meta, Schia’s graph which feels like content creation for content creation’s sake (which is also part of Schia’s Scum meta). Ultimately Schia’s posts were much better until Caff gets at risk and then OM gets flash wagoned in an attempt to protect him, and his posts D2 just are bad. My most likely Scum.
failed to accomplish this so I'm mobileposting, no links but I'm sure you can find the stuff I'm talking about or somebody samaritan can add them in between now and this evening
I mentioned how at first I felt like Sal/Caff were maybe difference-checked, before getting a second pass after that EOD - the thing that threw me off was a vote he had tossed on Sal back when he was starting to catch flack again (the one where he was all "be the change"). I took it as kind of a springboard from the pokes at the slot he had made earlier in his readlist, with an intent to build a counter wagon --but he never actually tries to push Sal there- it comes across more as a prod at a less involved partner to start Doing Things, and conversation in thread goes right on to Psy, Vizh etc al. Like, from a survival perspective it doesn't seem like any slot is actually trying to build momentum on Sal there, it reads more like distancing on the way down. This gets compounded for me by Sal's treatment of the wagons as DL approaches - she expresses some uncertainty and fencesits before p much asking me and Psy for an excuse to vote one way or the other. I understand a lot of the suspicions Cel has around the inertia on OM's wagon w/rt mine and Psy's progressions. I think Lady's vote is one of the more questionable in that scramble, irrespective of OM's alignment.
My first planning period is around noon, then again at 2:30. I'll try to address the rest then
Ah but you must remember, I didn't have content to interact with in the first place
Alright, first of all I'd like to apologise for derailing the thread to the extent that I did. As far as the actual words are concerned I pretty much stand by them, but tone could have been a little better. I am feeling a little better today (despite being as screwed over by my university as before, in fact I have only been screwed over by more staff at the uni since! smile :)) and at this stage will simply not reply to Psy's posts partly for my own health.
Day 2 Votecount (unofficial)
Psypsypsypsypsythe (3) - Celever, Laurel, Aura Guardian
Vizh (2) - M24, realiti,Psypsypsypsypsythe
Lady Salamence (3) - Schiavetto, OM, Psypsypsypsypsythe
Not Voting (3): Lady Salamence, HydrogenHydreigon, Vizh
Current votes. I still disagree with mafia!Vizh for the timing reasons at EoD yesterday, really I think Vizh is just only mafia if all 3 mafs were on the OM wagon, Psy and Schia are more responsible for the flashwagon and I would put Salamence at a higher probability of maf than Vizh too. Salamence could have been a determinate vote and while their logic is fine and believable to have come from town, the thing with logic is it's relatively impartial and so it could also have simply been faked.
I'm not 100% sure how to read into the fact that there have been 3 prevalent wagons over the course of the day. It's honestly a little surprising, and to me implies that one of the 3 is red. That is about the extent of it though, Psy's wagon began first and only more recently picked up steam, I'm not 100% what vote movement happened since Laurel's vote and that could be worth analysing more. The only vote since AG's is Psy's so that's largely irrelevant, unless Psy/Vizh W/W is a thing.
These wagons are Psy: Policy anti-town and widely mechanically wolfread, sometimes tonally townread. Vizh: Most polarised wagon, people really think they're town and others really think they're wolf. Salamence: Neutral option, kinda everyone is fine with them leaving but also fine with them staying.
If Psy is W then probably a tonal townreader is their buddy, it would be a little wild for that not to be the case. Unfortunately that is a fair proportion of the game. If Vizh is W then it kinda goes both ways, their bud is either bussing them throughout the day or trying to protect them. They are townread enough that either option is viable. If Salamence is W then... I'm not so sure about the scumbud equity there? I feel like they have a small amount of it with everyone.
Personally I feel optically that Salamence is a likely safe misvote candidate, the role AG was pushed into yesterday. Being somewhat neutrally read by most players, while actually having content, is traditionally a pretty strong signifier that someone is town.
Day 2 Votecount (unofficial)
Psypsypsypsypsythe (3) - Celever, Laurel, Aura Guardian
Vizh (2) - M24, realiti,
Lady Salamence (3) - Schiavetto, OM, Psypsypsypsypsythe
Not Voting (3): Lady Salamence, HydrogenHydreigon, Vizh
Current votes. I still disagree with mafia!Vizh for the timing reasons at EoD yesterday, really I think Vizh is just only mafia if all 3 mafs were on the OM wagon, Psy and Schia are more responsible for the flashwagon and I would put Salamence at a higher probability of maf than Vizh too. Salamence could have been a determinate vote and while their logic is fine and believable to have come from town, the thing with logic is it's relatively impartial and so it could also have simply been faked.
I'm not 100% sure how to read into the fact that there have been 3 prevalent wagons over the course of the day. It's honestly a little surprising, and to me implies that one of the 3 is red. That is about the extent of it though, Psy's wagon began first and only more recently picked up steam, I'm not 100% what vote movement happened since Laurel's vote and that could be worth analysing more. The only vote since AG's is Psy's so that's largely irrelevant, unless Psy/Vizh W/W is a thing.
These wagons are Psy: Policy anti-town and widely mechanically wolfread, sometimes tonally townread. Vizh: Most polarised wagon, people really think they're town and others really think they're wolf. Salamence: Neutral option, kinda everyone is fine with them leaving but also fine with them staying.
If Psy is W then probably a tonal townreader is their buddy, it would be a little wild for that not to be the case. Unfortunately that is a fair proportion of the game. If Vizh is W then it kinda goes both ways, their bud is either bussing them throughout the day or trying to protect them. They are townread enough that either option is viable. If Salamence is W then... I'm not so sure about the scumbud equity there? I feel like they have a small amount of it with everyone.
Personally I feel optically that Salamence is a likely safe misvote candidate, the role AG was pushed into yesterday. Being somewhat neutrally read by most players, while actually having content, is traditionally a pretty strong signifier that someone is town.
It's looking like the Vizh wagon won't really pick up, if I had to say at the moment, I'd say I'm more likely leaning to moving to the LS wagon then the Psy one. Yes the conversations with Psy have been downright horrendous, but I do believe they're town and at least somewhat trying to win the game.
Right now I'm mostly ok with them, whenever they're on they're always trying to contribute to town, even if they're busy with irl stuff.
Not sure if the pairings make sense, but iimo there is a better shot of getting 1 maf in the You+LS pairing then the Psy+Schia pairing
My readlist still mostly applies,
Also psy is prob thr confused towm
You just said there is 2 Mafia in this group of 4, and then voted somebody outside of it?