Gligar is a counter to CB Durant. It avoids the 2hko, and can Roost and eventually kill Durant back. Oh and if you want to mention the 30% flinch chance you may also want to mention the 80% accuracy of Iron Head. Gligar has 64% chance to land 2 Iron Heads, while having only a ~50% chance to land 3 hits. So good luck getting a flinch out of this 50% chance.Also why are people mentioning Gligar as a counter? CB Iron Head will 3HKO and +1 LO Iron Head will 2HKO, and it's not like Gligar can do anything against Durant unless if it has... Hidden Power Fire. Not to mention Iron Head's 30% flinch rate.
My arguments. Excuse any mistakes im tired and mobile.And since you know with maggy that he's going to BP, what stops you from Volt Switching out of there?
LOL what counter to durant carries volt switch?
For the record, the only thing that both of these pokemon have issues with are coverage issues. They can't kill everything in one set. Hence the comparison (for this and many other similarities).
You use BP? Great! Now you are not gonna get revenged, but also can't kill Fire types without a boost if you forgo a Rock type move (and even then you'll have to hit on the switch, due most carrying a Scarf. Have fun with a 64 accurate move)!
After rocks and a +1 boost durant can kill a lot of fire types right there, and those that he can't he can just switch to something like slowking. Now the fire type is at 50% next time it switches in and is definatly in KO range.
Each of Durant's last slots have one advantage over the other but have a gaping issue. If that gaping issue (coverage and what not) can be fixed with such ease that it makes a poke broken, you might as well ban Drag+Mag teams, since those remove the only resisting type of Dragon type attacks.
First off, I have a problem with dragons and OU in general so dont preach to me. Regardless, this thread is for RU, so while comparing durant to an OU pokemon for the sake of argument is ok try to stay a bit more on topic.
ANY neutral STAB Special hit has the potential to KO Durant. And even if that can be said about other pokemon (talking about the Scarf poke thing here), why make it sound like it's unviable to do so?
*coughsamecanbesaidaboutdeoxyscough* Secondly, it's not like any neutral hit will KO durant - it's defenses are bad but no sharpedo bad. Besides last I checked durant wasn't nominated as a suspect for it's defensive abilities.
Honestly, against a Stall team, you'll lose thanks to hazards slowly killing you due phazing (which is the main way Stall deals with stuff), so it doesn't have issues.
Except that durant kills the entire stall team while they phaze it. Even if they do eventually kill him with entry hazards, he'll have probably taken at least half the team with him. Not to mention again, he has baton pass which helps keep that momentum going against stall.
Offense have Scarfers which can revenge, or if having a scouting move, gain momentum from the obvious switch. Speaking of faster pokemon on Offense, Mixpedo can beat it easily thanks to Speed Boost.
I'll give you that
It can't switch in? Aww. Neither can Durant. Which brings me to my next point. Since Durant HAS to get in after a KO, you can already prepare by wrecking with a poke that it can't beat easily one on one (Scarf Thyplosion for example). Or just spam Volt Switch. Or Force it with a Scarfer while spike stacking.
If you make every pokemon on your team carry a fire move or volt switch you're losing to a lot of other things. This is another problem with durant - it is such a threat people need to play way too cautiosly around it.
This is why I hate including team mates as we are talking about one vs one when discussing a suspect. Suddenly including 2 pokemon at once when discussing a suspect isn't helping, especially if the reason for doing so is to illustrate how easily the suspect's counters can be eliminated with ease by the second poke. Where I will point out that if this is so, you might as well ban all offensive pokemon that can pair up to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Or can trap the counter, etc. Drag+Mag, Pokemon that hate Ttar+duggy, hell, the entirety of offense would be banned.
The difference is that strategies like those require smart play and good strategy, unlike durant. Also you have to include teamates when talking about this because pokemon in 6 v 6 not 1 v 1. Saying durant isn't broken because it requires team support is like saying a wide reciever is useless because he needs the quarterback to throw him the ball.
Long story short, Durant isn't broken. Too many checks, piss poor Sp Def make it impossible for that. It's amazing when given necessary support, but this is the case for any and all sweepers.
Originally Posted by Fat Ningildo
And since you know with maggy that he's going to BP, what stops you from Volt Switching out of there?
LOL what counter to durant carries volt switch?
Magneton?
For the record, the only thing that both of these pokemon have issues with are coverage issues. They can't kill everything in one set. Hence the comparison (for this and many other similarities).
You use BP? Great! Now you are not gonna get revenged, but also can't kill Fire types without a boost if you forgo a Rock type move (and even then you'll have to hit on the switch, due most carrying a Scarf. Have fun with a 64 accurate move)!
After rocks and a +1 boost durant can kill a lot of fire types right there, and those that he can't he can just switch to something like slowking. Now the fire type is at 50% next time it switches in and is definatly in KO range.
Each of Durant's last slots have one advantage over the other but have a gaping issue. If that gaping issue (coverage and what not) can be fixed with such ease that it makes a poke broken, you might as well ban Drag+Mag teams, since those remove the only resisting type of Dragon type attacks.
First off, I have a problem with dragons and OU in general so dont preach to me. Regardless, this thread is for RU, so while comparing durant to an OU pokemon for the sake of argument is ok try to stay a bit more on topic.
ANY neutral STAB Special hit has the potential to KO Durant. And even if that can be said about other pokemon (talking about the Scarf poke thing here), why make it sound like it's unviable to do so?
*coughsamecanbesaidaboutdeoxyscough* Secondly, it's not like any neutral hit will KO durant - it's defenses are bad but no sharpedo bad. Besides last I checked durant wasn't nominated as a suspect for it's defensive abilities.
Actually Durant's special defense is worse than Sharpedo's. So yes almost any neutral special hit will ohko.
Honestly, against a Stall team, you'll lose thanks to hazards slowly killing you due phazing (which is the main way Stall deals with stuff), so it doesn't have issues.
Except that durant kills the entire stall team while they phaze it. Even if they do eventually kill him with entry hazards, he'll have probably taken at least half the team with him. Not to mention again, he has baton pass which helps keep that momentum going against stall.
Where did you get that from? If Durant kills entire stall teams, then these teams are shitty at best. Stall teams have plenty of ways to deal with Durant such as hazards, Steelix, Qwilfish, Cofagrigus, Poliwrath and Gligar. Not saying that he can't hurt stall, but saying that he kills the entire team while they phaze is pure exaggeration.
Offense have Scarfers which can revenge, or if having a scouting move, gain momentum from the obvious switch. Speaking of faster pokemon on Offense, Mixpedo can beat it easily thanks to Speed Boost.
I'll give you that
It can't switch in? Aww. Neither can Durant. Which brings me to my next point. Since Durant HAS to get in after a KO, you can already prepare by wrecking with a poke that it can't beat easily one on one (Scarf Thyplosion for example). Or just spam Volt Switch. Or Force it with a Scarfer while spike stacking.
If you make every pokemon on your team carry a fire move or volt switch you're losing to a lot of other things. This is another problem with durant - it is such a threat people need to play way too cautiosly around it.
Where did that came from? So the only things tha trouble Durant are Volt Switch and Fire moves? What about almost any STABed neutral special attack and many powerful physical attacks?
This is why I hate including team mates as we are talking about one vs one when discussing a suspect. Suddenly including 2 pokemon at once when discussing a suspect isn't helping, especially if the reason for doing so is to illustrate how easily the suspect's counters can be eliminated with ease by the second poke. Where I will point out that if this is so, you might as well ban all offensive pokemon that can pair up to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Or can trap the counter, etc. Drag+Mag, Pokemon that hate Ttar+duggy, hell, the entirety of offense would be banned.
The difference is that strategies like those require smart play and good strategy, unlike durant. Also you have to include teamates when talking about this because pokemon in 6 v 6 not 1 v 1. Saying durant isn't broken because it requires team support is like saying a wide reciever is useless because he needs the quarterback to throw him the ball.
Long story short, Durant isn't broken. Too many checks, piss poor Sp Def make it impossible for that. It's amazing when given necessary support, but this is the case for any and all sweepers.
Also the fact that Baton Passing a Hone Claws boost isn't really all that great.Omicron said:No one uses Baton Pass on Durant, and for a good reason, because running Rock Slide is so much more useful (in most cases)
Yeah I agree. If you run Baton Pass, Durant is going to have a lot more counters/checks such as Moltres, Entei, or physically defensive Mandibuzz. Durant is a lot more threatening with Rock Slide because it can outspeed all Fire types in RU. Also, like Lee said, not a lot of things can benefit from a Hone Claws boost besides Aerodactyl and a few others. Hone Claws + 3 attacks is definitely the best set, so further discussing CB or BP is pointless.Ok, so this comment is just directed at everyone using Baton Pass as an argument for Durant being broken. Who has ever used Baton Pass Durant? Why, in your right mind, would you ever use Baton Pass over Rock Slide or one of its other moves? I for one have never seen a Baton Pass variant, ever. Just because it can be used doesn't mean it will be used, so all these arguments are just theoretical. No one uses Baton Pass on Durant, and for a good reason, because running Rock Slide is so much more useful (in most cases). All this talk of "Durant can Baton Pass to an appropriate counter" is just irrelevant, because you are now predicting battle moves, which is definitely not a legitimate argument. Also, when you say this, it doesn't say anything about Durant's brokenness, all it says is that Durant can switch to something else that can take care of its counter / check. You could do the same thing by simply switching out - i.e. double switching or w/e.
I agree with this whole argument and can concur that I too believe Durant deserves a ban, especially when taking all the other arguments I read on this thread into account.Ok, people have been telling me to post here for quite some time, so I figure that I may as well at this point!
Anyhow, first and foremost, a lot of you guys are missing one key Durant set, the one that I used practically every time I played Durant in previous rounds and early in this round, in fact (I topped out pretty early in the round and wasn't too concerned with making council or anything, so didn't ladder much past early 1300ish at that point, but when I played using offense, I used this set).
Durant@Choice Band
Adamant | Hustle
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide
- Baton Pass
I'd ask "What? No Hone Claws?" until I saw the Choice Band item next to your Durant.
Immediately when posting this, I'd like to address the issues that people may be seeing right off the bat from it, most notably the Adamant Nature, and use of Baton Pass without any moves to actually pass (and on a Choice set, for that matter!). I'd also like to look at the lists of Durant counters mentioned so far, eliminating basically everything but Steelix, Gligar, Qwilfish, and Magneton.
First and foremost, let's look at the fact that I was using an Adamant nature. Most of you are probably thinking something along the lines of "what the hell", but let's look at the usage stats, or the RU tier list, and take a look at which Pokemon Durant outspeeds when using a Jolly nature versus when using an Adamant nature.
Charizard - usually Choice scarfed, and only ran on sun, anyways, where Durant really has no place really doing any damage regardless, with the possible exception of eliminating the setters early in the game. Pretty much a non issue. Entei - you lose to offensive CM sets, but those are rare enough that it's not a major problem, to be honest. Thanks to the nature cap when using Flare Blitz, you're still going to outspeed the majority of the Entei that you come across.
Galvantula - Galvantula's bad. Aside from that, it won't be switching into Durant anyways, and takes a truckload from even resisted hits. I guess you can't revenge it anymore, but it's just not really that important.
Galvantula is not bad.
You would be surprised how many teams, including my own, are hilariously weak to its STAB attacks as well as its coverage moves. CompoundEyes Thunder attacks are not to be taken so lightly, especially not when the recipient of those attacks has a heinously low Sp.Def .
Manectric - pretty much always scarfed, so it'll outspeed Jolly Durant regardless.
Scyther - lol, it's actually better that it outspeeds you, so it gets to U-Turn out before you attack and instead of killing the thing that can't touch you, you're instead dealing a crapload of damage to your opponent's best Durant answer. A definite plus.
...why would Scyther U-turn on a Durant? That would do virtually nothing except give Life Orb recoil to the Scyther.
Typhlosion - usually scarfed, so most of the time it's outspeeding Jolly Durant regardless. Also Typhlosion just isn't that good in a metagame with so many Fire-types that are simply more powerful, especially when Typhlosion's only real strong attack is limited more and more every switch-in to rocks.
I can concur that many of these Pokemon are usually Scarfed and thus outspeed Jolly Durant, making Adamant Durant more appealing.
Anyways, looking at this list, there's nothing really important.
I dunno, I'd be careful with Galvantula and Scyther if I were you...
The only real downside of losing out on those extra few points of speed is that you can't outrun Galvantula and opposing Durant anymore, and there are a few random NU mons like offensive Cryogonal that are rare enough not to really matter at all. No big deal. On the other hand, let's look at some of the damage calculations from Adamant Durant versus a variety of other threats.
Adamant Choice Band Durant is doing 39.82% - 47.01% to max/max Impish Gligar. With Rocks alone, that's KOing 40% of the time. With any residual damage at all, the KO chances are huge, and boosted further by the chance of a flinch. Of course, there's the chance of a badly timed miss, but you're still capable of 2HKOing one of the best Gligar checks out there easily.
You're also capable of easily 3HKOing 252 HP / 112 Defense Qwilfish easily with Iron Head. After Intimidate. Yeah, that's a resisted move, against one of its best counters, after an Attack drop. Jesus that's just absurd, tbh. Technically it's likely that one of the Iron Heads is going to miss, but what's Qwilfish going to do back? Waterfall for 30%? Spike a layer? Lol the worst thing it could do is TWave you and that's still okay, because you've taken out their key physical defensive pivot and spiker.
Honestly, those two counters are the main two worth mentioning, in my opinion, simply because, unlike Gligar and Qwilfish, which can fit into pretty much any type of team, Durant's other two best counters - Magneton and Steelix - are simply not as splashable. Steelix flat out doesn't fit well into any fast paced offensive team, as it detracts from the tempo of the games too much, while Magneton doesn't particularly have any place on teams that don't need specific Steel-types removed. Being forced to run either of those two mons in order to handle Durant well is just ridiculous, as it's significantly limiting to certain playstyles, while forcing others to run mons which simply have no place on the team. Overall, this, in my opinion simply makes it unhealthy for the metagame, regardless of whether or not it is directly 'broken'.
I've always seen Magneton as a "counterpick" Pokemon anyway; his fully-evolved form, Magnezone, is not so different in this aspect. I hate SkarmBliss, so I pick Magnezone to counter it hard.
Onto the 'fast special attacker scarfers beat it' argument. The funny thing is, in order to beat Durant, you need to get that scarfer in, which means that something's basically going to die. Or, if something doesn't die, and you attempt to directly switch in that scarfer, especially if it's something like Magneton, Durant can just dry pass out, allowing the Durant user to set the pace of the match in their favor, gaining significant momentum, which is a huge benefit, especially if using one of the more offensively oriented teams that CB Durant is commonly found on.
Anyways, overall, these facts together just have me feeling that although Durant has a few solid checks and counters (emphasis on few), it adds an unhealthy element to the metagame, and therefor is worthy of ban.
edit: sorry that was super tl;dr lol, basically the gist of it is that i find durant p broke
Your argument is actually very solid and worth the read. I just had to nitpick a few things because of my first impression regarding the matter.