Dream World General Metagame Discussion

[Super Mario Bro]

From my experiences, Shadow Tag Chandelure is an overpowered Pokemon. It combos far too well with offensive sand type sweepers, since it traps all of their counters barring something stupid like Shed Shell Bronzong. Also, keep in mind that having counters doesn't make a Pokemon balanced.

 

[/B/utterfree]

My experience: I laughed when I saw that the Pokemon Online's main server had Chandelure in its Dream World Ubers tier.

This was earliest Gen V metagaming, and I laughed at how my Contrary Serperior and Uber Parasect sets managed to trounce the daylights out of Shadow Tag Chandelure, among a myriad of other Pokes which followed suit.

I will pity the entire OU metagame if Chandelure gets banned. No, seriously. The Pokemon is BL atmost, just like Wobbs. But for different reasons.

1. Chandelure doesn't guarantee kills. Its only good stat, Special Attack, is rendered meh by the fact its other stats are all rubbish by comparison. It is required to run a Choice Scarf, or otherwise be outsped and one-shotted by the things it's supposed to check/counter in the first place!

2. Fire/Ghost is a horrible defensive typing, and without Levitate is prone to be heinously weak to hazards. I can't even use Chandelure in Wifi UU/Wifi OU without laughing it out of my team in exchange for a better Flash Fire expert to help my Parasect do well in OU (or a better Fire-type in general to help my Parasect in Ubers).

3. It's been mentioned before, but rain and sand make Chandelure weep in despair. The weather setters, Tyranitar and Politoed, both counter/check (respectively) Chandelure. Not to mention all of said weather setters' partners are capable of this through coverage moves or just being partners (for a reason!)

4. Only Choice Banders will really feel Chandelure's pain of being relatively bleh. In which case, Expert Belts become more and more reliable for laughing at Chandelure. And Shed Shells, if you're running something weak to it (i.e. Ferrothorn, Forretress, etc.) and you happen to be needing to get out after a fresh kill of one of Chandelure's teammates.

 

[Tobes]

Ok so I've been abruptly reminded of why I hate np threads. I really dislike bickering and the arguments in this thread aren't going anywhere and are becoming increasingly hostile. So I'm putting my foot down. As I already said, there aren't any suspects at the moment. Chandelure being banned is just not on the table. If you don't like it, then sorry, but that's not likely to change soon. Same goes for any of the other questionables.

This thread is now a general metagame discussion thread. I don't want to see more posts stating that Pokemon X should be banned. If I do I'll simply delete them, and possibly infract repeat offenders.

So, let's try to make good use of this thread, ok? Discuss what you enjoy using, what makes Dream World fun for you. What do you have success with? What have you observed to be consistent amongst playstyles? Discussions about things like these are what I am looking for.

 

[danilo]

I've recently begun using Sub Seed Serperior. That thing is dirt nasty. It's soo good against rain, and decent against sand. I enjoy stalling out things like Dragonite after a DD, and things of that nature.

Jirachi is pretty low on usage. It's really really good, but you kind of have to run U-turn for Chandelure. It walls most of the special attackers in the tier, and is an overall excellent mon.

 

[shrang]

shrang, if you're losing to Chandelure, just build a better team. Tyranitar is the most used mon in 1337 stats because it makes Chandelure a 1 for 1 100% of the time. Tyranitar is a hard counter to Chandelure.

Your logic on the fact that Chandelure can kill a Pokemon that walls your opponent's teams is intrinsically flawed. Sun teams have trouble with Heatran, so they run Dugtrio.

If you're complaining about how Chandelure takes out on of your checks to your opponents mons, then build a better team, or a different team.

I'm losing to Chandelure some of the time, and like I said, Tyranitar being a hard counter has nothing to do with what Chandelure does. And don't tell me to go and build a better team before you get three of yours into the top 20 simultaneously with one of them at #1 like I did, thanks. Since Tobes has forbidden us to continue on this subject, I'm not going to continue, either.

Anyway, I'm surprised I haven't seen more Sandslash around. Yes, Excadrill does things better most of the time, but Sandslash does have its perks, namely not being revenged by Breloom and not getting killed as easily by Gliscor (I have admitted been more scared of Sandslash more than Excadrill because it isn't just "send in Breloom and win").

Also, another Pokemon I'm really thinking of testing is Sawk. While looks like of mediocre, it does have Sturdy and Reversal. You can chuck a Salac Berry on it and lead with it. Hopefully, you get yourself down to low HP and then you get a Salac boost. Then you just spam Reversal until you die. Here's what I'm thinking of:

Sawk @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
Nature: Hasty (Just to annoy Genesect)
- Close Combat
- Reversal
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Pretty much a one trick pony. Priority will end Sawk, but that doesn't matter, since he's only supposed to be a suicide attacking lead anyway. It gets a bit more annoying with sand around, but otherwise, it looks fun.

 

[danilo]

I don't know how good Shawk is, since Tyranitar is at 50% usage. It also doesn't have enough spa to run hp ice, which is pretty lame...seems insane vs weatherless and sun teams though

 

[jrrrrrrr]

So why should we see Chandelure see more than one Pokemon running Shed Shell per team?

Uh...we don't. I could count the number of serious ladder teams I've seen with any Shed Shells on one hand, let alone teams with multiple Shed Shells. The idea that you keep focusing on is not founded in reality. Chandelure does not force Shed Shells on the metagame. Unlike opinions, we can actually look at usage stats to show that this central idea of yours is wrong.

Let's look at item usage stats in rated DW OU. . You'll see that:

- Only 6.1% of Ferrothorns bother with Shed Shell
- Only 5.3% of Forretress
- Only 14% of Skarmorys
- Smeargle, Breloom and Bronzong are the only pokemon who use Shed Shell enough to have it recorded as a stat, out of the ENTIRE TIER.

And even if Chandelure DID force Shed Shell to be as common as you say, which it doesn't, why would that be a bad thing? How is a leftovers dominated metagame any better? Leftovers, Choice Items, and Life Orb probably account for 95% of all item usage. Certainly it's less "centralizing" to have more viable items? Trying to back a ban on Chandelure isn't supported by statistics or by applying the vague non-word "overcentralization". Thank you Tobes for giving us the official stance.

 

[blaZofgold]

Guys, lets be stopping this Chandelure talk now please?

Out of the three new DW Pokemon in Limbo, I haven't seen Meloetta in play very much. What gives?

 

[shrang]

I really think Meloetta has some potential, even though it isn't the best mon out there. The main reason, IMO, why people aren't using Meloetta is simply because they have no idea how to use it properly. There is no standard set for it like there is for Genesect and Keldeo, because she has so many options yet none of them are exceptionally good in any way. I personally think Meloetta quite a bit of potential, but we just don't know enough about it to use it properly.

TOBES ORGANISE A RESEARCH WEEK AROUND MELOETTA. DO IT. =O

 

[Rakan]

I haven't seen Meloetta very often, but when I do, it always surprises me just how much special bulk it has (before transforming, of course). It's relatively slow, but it can definitely take a special hit and strike back with a powerful STAB Psychic. It also has a decent movepool as well, sporting moves such as Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball on the special side, and Close Combat, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, and U-turn on the physical side. Since Meloetta is hard-pressed to use its Pirouette Form, as it must use Relic Song in order to transform, I would think that either a mixed set or a full special set would be the most effective. It is also important to note that Relic Song is blocked by Ghost-types, though they usually cannot do much in return do to Meloetta's Normal typing making her immune to Ghost-type attacks.

Here's the set I'm thinking of:

Meloetta @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 128 Atk / 128 SpA / 252 Spe (Not too sure about the EV spread, it's definitely tentative)
Nature: Naive / Hasty
- Relic Song
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Shadow Claw
- Close Combat

A full special set would probably look like:

Meloetta @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (Not too sure about the EV spread, it's definitely tentative)
Nature: Naive / Hasty
- Calm Mind
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Shadow Ball / Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt

 

[Taylor]

I want to see how Meloetta performs with Life Orb CC/Psychic/Hidden Power [Ice] with a Timid nature and max Special Attack. But perhaps you could include Chople Berry to beat Keldeo and Blaziken. It can OHKO Garchomp with Hidden Power [Ice] and depending on whether you have got a Calm Mind in or two will determine on if its holding Yache Berry or not, as you survive any unboosted Outrage/Earthuake Garchomp can throw at it with the right investment.

She shows off her high SAtk and it can leave a good impression using Close Combat to full effect. Right now I'll see how she performs with max HP EVs and 270 Speed because her base Special Attack is already good on a Psychic-type with Psyshock/CC/Shadow Ball and access to Calm Mind.

 

[danilo]

Is it me or is Chandelure declining in usage among the 1337? In about 20 battles, I've seen maybe 3 Chandelure's. Is everyone just sticking Tyranitar on their teams so no one wants to use Chandelure?

 

[Animals]

Life Orb Mamoswine is having a field day in the metagame from my experience with it. With absolutely none of the top 15 being able to switch in on it freely due to fear of Earthquake or Icicle Crash. Also thanks to Dream World's rules we now can run Icicle Crash Thick Fat Mamoswine (at the cost of not being able to use Stealth Rock). Which gives it more of a fighting chance against the likes of Scarf Chandelure's Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I don't know how much less damage Chandelure is actually doing, but I'm sure there's a chance that Mamo won't be OHKOed.

 

[DDRMaster]

252 SpAtk Chandelure Fire Blast vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Thick Fat Mamoswine: 88.92% - 104.71%

That's a OHKO after SR damage. Mamoswine needs Rain support or a lot of investment in HP and SpDef if it wants to survive.

Mamoswine's still a good Pokemon, though. It can wall things like Lightningrod Zapdos and can take a hit from Genesect before firing back with Earthquake. Checking Breloom and Dragon's with Ice Shard is also great.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Is it me or is Chandelure declining in usage among the 1337? In about 20 battles, I've seen maybe 3 Chandelure's. Is everyone just sticking Tyranitar on their teams so no one wants to use Chandelure?

No; chances are that because of smarter play, Chandelure simply isn't good enough to stay on 1337 teams.

As for Mamoswine, it's an amazing Pokemon on its own. Its defensive typing may be average, but walling Pokemon such as Zapdos is still something worthwhile.

 

[danilo]

Mamoswine is one of the best pokes in this metagame. 2HKOs like everything. Revenge kills Breloom. Good switch in to Raikou and Zapdos. Great mon

 

[blaZofgold]

Yeah, simply put, eliminating it's water weakness in such a rain-filled metagame is amazing.

Here's a pokemon I haven't seen or heard from yet in DW OU, and I seriously wonder why: Azumarill. Imean, double STAB'd Aqua Jet with Huge Power and Choice Band? Imean, sure Water Absorb will stop that but still.

 

[Taylor]

I noticed Blaziken's Baton Pass set can use this particular move so effectively because first and foremost, the opponent is content on trying to make Blaziken faint. They don't see the BP coming and as soon as you pass to Garchomp, you're in the driver's seat. Two Speed Boosts isn't incredibly difficult to acquire if you use Protect, which unfortunately forces you to lose either one of your attacks to do so. A Focus Sash varient may Swords Dance and then pass the following turn to your designated receiver.

Breloom strikes me as a good recipient for the boosts because you now have the speed to experience just how powerful those Bullet Seeds can be. It does resist Water/Ground attacks which, is fair to assume, are slightly more popular than Psychic/Flying-types, allowing you to pass to Breloom and comfortably resist the the intended Surf/Earthquake.

Thick Fat has really given Mamoswine something to work with considering how difficult it is to abuse Snow Cloak at the higher end of the ladder. I knew I used Overheat on Chandelure for a reason.

 

[AJC]

No; chances are that because of smarter play, Chandelure simply isn't good enough to stay on 1337 teams.

That's because just blindly trapping shit with the scarf revenge set gets you killed by T-tar or some other pursuit user and the CM set up set can really only set up on chansey/blissey with some degree of safety.

 

[Lee]

just be a jerk then and whack Memento on Chandelure and team it up with something like Excadrill. that way Chandelure can remove a key counter like Breloom or Gliscor and then telegraph the opponents Tyranitar to buy Excadrill a free(ish) Swords Dance. sounds like worthwhile team support to me.

 

[Tobes]

The issue I have (and I assume many people do judging by the dominance of Choice Scarf) with non-Choice Scarf Chandelure is that is so slow. Dream World has a slew of Pokemon with far higher base Speeds than Chandelure. Keldeo, Manaphy, Garchomp, Serperior, Thundurus, etc., all fear Choice Scarf Chandelure far more than other sets because if it can KO the target in one go (in some cases requiring prior damage), it'll usually get the kill and survive to go on to perhaps get another. Specs, etc., does not give you this luxury. Garchomp will Earthquake you. Keldeo will Hydro Pump you. You get the idea. Chandelure's true, and perhaps only in a sense, strength is its ability as a revenge killer. Any set other than Choice Scarf isn't performing this role to its fullest. That's not to say things like Specs are bad, but they are extremely niche compared to the sheer utility of Choice Scarf.

 

[shrang]

Chandelure's true, and perhaps only in a sense, strength is its ability as a revenge killer. Any set other than Choice Scarf isn't performing this role to its fullest. That's not to say things like Specs are bad, but they are extremely niche compared to the sheer utility of Choice Scarf.

You're really overlooking those other roles that Chandelure is playing. It doesn't matter that it's slow because the support Pokemon that he needs to kill are slower than him anyway. It's like saying Palkia's best role is a Choice Scarfer. Well of course. However, to overlook the other sets' utility is just foolish. Sub/CM traps and sets up on pretty much any wall that doesn't use a Shed Shell (again, are you going to run Shed Shell on all of your walls?). SunnyBeamer can trap and kill Politoed. Specs is great because it's a fucking nuke. Yes, Chandelure is a great revenge killer, but if you already have a revenge killer *cough*Genesect*cough, there's no reason to run a second one.

 

[/B/utterfree]

You're really overlooking those other roles that Chandelure is playing. It doesn't matter that it's slow because the support Pokemon that he needs to kill are slower than him anyway. It's like saying Palkia's best role is a Choice Scarfer. Well of course. However, to overlook the other sets' utility is just foolish. Sub/CM traps and sets up on pretty much any wall that doesn't use a Shed Shell (again, are you going to run Shed Shell on all of your walls?). SunnyBeamer can trap and kill Politoed. Specs is great because it's a fucking nuke. Yes, Chandelure is a great revenge killer, but if you already have a revenge killer *cough*Genesect*cough, there's no reason to run a second one.

Not all supports need to run a Shed Shell. All it takes is a Volt Switch or U-turn to escape. Sometimes a Baton Pass.

 

[Taylor]

The very thought of Genesect abusing its coverage w/ U-turn, stats and typing which allows it to be so effective, begs the question: do I really want to lock myself in Ice Beam/T-Bolt just because I have Download at my disposal?

You don't have to run Choice Scarf on Genesect and when Chandelure outspeeds those threats mentioned in Tobes' post just as well as our Scizor replacement (Breloom actually takes that spot competitively, but Steel/Bug is currently one of the better dual-typings out there) as a dominent Choice-user. It seems like it'd be a wiser decision to give Genesect a different item, in spite of it being a useful revenge-killer and scout.

One of main Genesect's selling points is that he can quickly U-turn out of trouble. Even with Download, being Choice-locked forces you to take a closer look at your opponent's team, and then select the superior move.

This is generally why I've remained calm when using Genesect and not resorting to the standard Choice Scarf set. Dream World's "Speed Tiers" suggest that there are better alternatives for your Choice Scarfer (if you really think you need one) because you're going to have to do a lot of U-turning before feeling like it is safe to use one of your elemental moves.

On a different subject, I'm startled at the lack of Rain-themed offense that is certainly one of Standard OUs best styles. Aren't any of you guys centering your strategies around Thundurus, Manaphy and Keldeo with these powerful Thunders/Surfs/Hydro Pumps? You can run Chandelure with Hidden Power [Fighting] after all.

 

[Lemonade]

I've been running rain with Manaphy and Keldeo, which is nice because Specs Keldeo wrecks Ferrothorn and Jellicent, and Manaphy really only has problems with those two. The problem is that this brings 3 Electric weak Pokemon, meaning Raikou usually works better than Thundurus. In any case, it is hard to stop if you run and offensive Politoed since Tyranitar dies a lot faster than using weak Scalds. (also SubCM HP Water Shadow Ball Chandelure lolololol).