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Before we start any of the real fun stuff, we have some details to iron out, as always. This thread is a place for the community to voice their opinions and concerns about the DPL format.
1: Should captains play?
We've (almost?) always allowed captains to play in the past with a 15k credit buy-in price. Should this be changed? I'll be honest, it's probably going to stay this way, but if you disagree, please let us know here.
2: What should team composition be?
This is the most interesting question I think, and it has a large impact on the formats we play too. In short, I believe we can field a larger player pool, and as a result I believe we can expand the tournament slightly. In the past, DPL has been six teams, six starters, two slots. Should we expand the team count or size? If so, do we make teams bigger or add more teams? I've added a poll to this thread with the three options: Six teams six slots, six teams eight slots, or eight teams six slots. The poll is not an official vote, it's just a way to measure public opinion without having to ask everyone one by one. That being said, if you have thoughts about this, please post them! Everyone's opinion counts for something, and I want to make sure DPL is the best it can be.
As a side note, the typical draft rules will still apply. Teams will receive 10k credits per starter slot plus an additional 20k for a minimum of two substitutes.
3: What formats will be played this year?
This depends a bit on the answer to question 2 and a bit on what signups look like (mostly the former). What I can say is SS DOU is guaranteed at least two slots (obviously), and the following formats are potentially eligible for the remaining slots:
- SM DOU
- XY DOU
- BW DOU
- Doubles UU
- Doubles Ubers
- BDSP DOU (this is the only format weighted lower than the rest. It will only be in DPL if there's significant support.)
As always, if you have any other items you'd like to discuss regarding DPL 8, feel free to post them.
I think pretty much everyone agrees SS DOU should be given 2 slots and SM and XY should be given a slot each. So when looking at the last two slots, we're looking at a 3rd SS DOU, DUU, DUbers, BW DOU, and BDSP DOU
-SS 3
No from me. Last year's games already had multiple questions of quality with just two slots and I think going to a third is only going to make this worse as the player pool hasn't gotten that much better from last year to now
-DUU
Has the precedent from a bunch of previous DPLs and hasn't really done anything *wrong* to be removed from the tournament to be removed. However, I really do view it as a watered down SS DOU with a weaker pool overall (read: much more top heavy). Most DUU games I've watched have had very similar gameplay to DOU. Not my top choice.
-DUbers
Now we're talking! I think the biggest reasons to include Dubers in this tour are it's fundamentally unique mechanics between the Pokemon available and the presence of Dynamax. It's also super similar to the VGC 2022 ruleset which means we can get more VGCers involved. I think it'd just also be a healthy shakeup, forcing the strong players willing to play the tier to have to adapt.
-BW
I'm hesitant to say BW should be cut from the tour. I think the tier is deeper than most give it credit for, but it was definitely the least competitive as some of the better oldgens players went to other gens or SS. I would rather leave this one up to those who would be strong BW players confirming that they'd play this or what their preferences for the slot would be.
-BDSP
Absolutely not. BDSP is mechanically similar to SS while using a limited pool of Pokemon. Currently the metagame has seen very limited development and like 90% of the activity in the bdsp thread from december 1st is that one guy who keeps angrily posting about sand veil.
that being said, my final preference on tiers is Dubers > DUU > BW > SS3 > BDSP
6x6 was fine. increase team size if signups increase, but I'd rather not play 8 team dpl
Hello DOU! Resident DPL enthusiast Fespy here. I want to start off by saying that the tournament last year felt just right. I don't think anything needs to change, and if I had to pick now I'd say just keep everything identical. But, of course, some people disagree and variety is good in general so I'll talk through my views here.
1: Should captains play?
Yes, captains should be able to draft themselves. The most common counterargument goes something like "but if SMB manages, he'll get himself for dirt cheap, and that's unfair!" But what's relevant to consider here isn't the price alone- it's the delta between an SMB drafting themselves vs not drafting themselves. If they do not draft themselves, they get a solid support player for free. So either way, regardless of the manager's decision, they benefit from their own abilities. I personally am one of the worst players in the manager pool so if anyone were to have an issue with this it would be me, and I don't.
2: What should team composition be?
6 teams 6 starting slots. Keeping DPL relatively small makes it feel so much more fun and special. The analogy I'll use here is NFL vs MLB. Each NFL team plays 17 games a season. Each game matters, and lots of fans watch every single game their team plays. The MLB on the other hand has
lord only knows how many games per season. Each individual game's value is diluted so much that most people don't watch any more. Counterargument: we want to include as many people as possible!
Yes, this is totally fair. In general I'm a fan of inclusion over exclusion. DWCoP was great for this, as are so many tours. And there are tons of ways to get involved with DPL even without being a starter or even getting drafted. But making the tournament large enough that players start to lose excitement hurts more than it helps.
3: What formats will be played this year?
SS DOU
SS DOU
SS DUU
SM DOU
XY DOU
(one of BW DOU or SS DUbers)
Third SS DOU slot is definitely not necessary and f*** all the DUU haters it's a fantastic tier.
1: Should captains play?
15K for captains is fine but tbh if it came down to a vote I would lean towards management not playing just because I think it falls more in line with """real""" sports. I think DPL has graduated from meme tour to something we all have fun with while sincerely care about winning, and management not playing feels more in line with that?
I don't feel passionate about it either way but if someone wanted to lead the campaign for managers not playing, I would at least sign the petition.
2: What should team composition be?
I think we should try to shake things up a little in at least 1 avenue every year, be that # of teams, # of slots per team, or the tiers involved. I have always been a fan of 6 playing slots because you get variety in team size and its cool to see different managers trying different builds, and if the people want 8 teams that would be something interesting that hasn't been tried before.
3: What formats will be played this year?
I have seen a lot of support this year for DUBERS which is surprising but cool! I feel like at least 2x cg + 3 old gens are staples and last slot comes down to SS3 / DUU / DUBERS (assuming 6 playing slots). BDSP is also a lot of fun but since its essentially an OM + not a huge amount of people play the tier it doesn't sem to fit.
My preference for the last slot in order is DUU > SS > DUBERS but DUBERS could rise if there's a lot of support. Would love to hear from anyone advocating for it. With all of the effort that goes into DUU during the rest of the year and the creativity flex there each DPL, not to mention its history in the tournament, keeping DUU is my top chice.
1: Should captains play? Yes if they want, as it was last year.
2: What should team composition be, and what formats? I’m a big believer that Doubles Premier League should showcase all the formats that fall under Smogon Doubles, and as such I believe in a 8 slot format with 3x SS DOU, DUU, Dubers, and each oldgen. This is for a couple reasons:
A) This brings interest to each of the tiers in a way that’s unique to DPL. If anyone is worried they may not get drafted they can put in work in one of the lesser played tiers and show their value in those. This causes more players to take these tiers seriously, and further elevates them. Also the more high quality games in these tiers the better for them.
B) Metagame development for these other tiers. Oldgens and DUU both saw metagame development last DPL, and this then follows through in tournaments like classic and DUU circuit.
C) Strengthening other tiers grows Smogon Doubles and CG DOU. We often see someone who has lost interest in Smogon Doubles coming back for DPL and then starting signing up for other tours. If we cut certain tiers, we may lose interest from these returning players. Alternatively, there are DUU and Dubers mains that we can get into the Smogon Doubles tournament scene with including these tiers.
D) I’m also not sure if we’re going to get enough quality manager signups to get to 8 teams, and doing 6x6 feels too small. But this remains to be seen.
If we do not get to 8 slots (because I know I’m in the minority on this), then my vote would be 2x SS DOU, each oldgen, and DUU as it was last year. DUU rocks.
I really think we should give six teams eight slots a shot this year. As Actuarily said, this allows us to include everything under the Smogon Doubles banner and allows DUbers another chance at a DPL spot. I think the Doubles World Cup sign up numbers prove we can handle a 6x8 tournament without losing too much in the way of player quality. Obviously I am biased re: DUU, but its proven on multiple occasions that it is a competitive format and it could really really use the metagame development that DPL would provide. As our tournament schedule has shifted to be more DOU centric over the past year or so, I think DPL is a wonderful opportunity to include the formats that otherwise don't get very much love. Hell, I'd even be cool with Doubles LC being in DPL, but I don't think there's room for it and 3 SS DOU slots. I would propose a lineup of this: DOU, DOU, DOU, DUU, DUBERS, SM, XY, BW. I think this makes the most amount of people happy and allows for a good number of different formats to be in the tournament.
1: Should captains play?
Captains should definitely be able to play, and unless someone has an ingenious idea for fair, objective, variable pricing, a flat 15k pricing is still the best option. As fespy explained, even in the case of someone like SMB it's still a fairly reasonable price as you're only paying for the player. I'd say what's more of a problem is if managers want to play but don't feel they're worth the 15k pricetag, but there's not a good way to solve that, and I don't think it's that big a problem anyways.
2: What should team composition be?
DPL should 100% be 6 teams. 8 teams means the tour drags on too long, and is less competitive than 6 teams. It also loses out on the benefit of 8 slots which is format inclusion. Speaking of which, I believe 6x6 is a good place, 8 slots isn't unreasonable but starts to stretch things a bit thin. One option I'd suggest as a compromise to help avoid snubs would be to keep the 6 playing slots, but increase the minimum team size (i.e. number of subs). If we do size up to 8 slots though, it should be because we believe 8 slots is best for the tour, not just to add DUbers.
3: What formats will be played this year?
If 8 slots then 3 x SS, and one each of oldgens, DUU, DUbers seems pretty clear. BDSP isn't a realistic option, and it's hard to argue against DUbers with 8 slots if there's support for it.
If 6 slots then I would prefer to keep last year's format (2 x SS, one each of oldgens and DUU). Dubers over DUU if anything, but neither DUU nor BW should be removed for it.
I don't have much of a stake in this since I'm not planning to participate, but I want to share my perspective as a manager from DPL V when we did 8 slots. For reference, that tour had SM1 / SM2 / SM3 / SM4 / XY / BW / DUU / BO3 with SM, XY, BW.
I was a new manager and didn't do particularly well that year, so maybe others figured it out better than me; however, while it was a worthwhile experiment, I don't think it helped the tour. I had a lot of trouble juggling all those slots with people who felt burnt out, or struggling to support everyone in so many places. I decided not to buy myself so that I'd have a better ability to spread out my support and even then it was rough. And that was with 4 of the slots in the same tier (making it easy for all of them to help each other out or use each others' rejected teams), and a fifth slot being comprised of other tiers that were already part of the tour. So, running 3 SS / 1 SM / 1 XY / 1 BW / 1 DUU / 1 DUbers (which seems to be a consensus lineup for an 8 tier tour) would likely cause even more strain on the managers.
Drafting was also tougher because I felt more pressure to find solely people that I'd be confident in. The next year, in DPL VI with 6 slots (SS / SS / SS / SM / XY / BW, SS was very new so there wasn't really a defined DUU yet) I did buy myself, and even when I had my own game to worry about I felt more able to support my team. Also, maybe this seems backwards with fewer playing slots, but I felt more free to pick up a somewhat left-field player (who even got a win! s/o to SaDiSTiCNarwhal) since I wasn't straining to reach the minimum number on the roster.
If managers are up for it, then highlighting more tiers could definitely be fun, and DUbers definitely offers more variety than the other choices with its difference in mechanics and would feel more fresh. However, this isn't the first time it's been tried and I don't think it was hugely successful before.
1: Should captains play?
Yes, captains should be allowed to play. 15k is a solid price and having it go higher than 15k because good players decide to sign up as manager is kind of silly lol.
2: What should team composition be?
6 teams with 8 slots would be the most optimal this year. The only other time this happened was during dpl 5 but its been 3 years since then and the player base for dou has slightly increased since then. A lot of top players that used to play when xy and sm were current gen are gone now but if you look at dwcop signups from the past 2 years, they both reached over 100. I have no doubt in my mind that dpl this year can get at least 60 competent players.
3: What formats will be played this year?
If it stays 6x6, keep the format the same as last year (2 SS DOU, 1 SS DUU, 1 SM DOU, 1 XY DOU, 1 BW DOU)
DUU should be a staple in DPL now because of all the hard work n10siT does for it year round and also because players genuinely love playing the format.
If it goes to 6x8 or 8x8, then having 3 SS DOU, 1 SS DUU, 1 SS DUBERS, 1 SM DOU, 1 XY DOU, and 1 BW DOU sounds good. I do not believe BDSP deserves a slot for dpl and also removing BW because you think its not competitive is a bad argument lol.
I don't think DUbers should be in DPL at all. DUU was added because it's pretty closely intertwined with DOU community-wise, and DPL is at its core a community event. DUbers has no notable community or tournaments, the DUbers thread has had 18 posts in the last year and at least half of them are from a banned user, and the format really just exists as a ladder. This isn't meant to be a knock on DUbers as a whole as not every tier has to have a massive and active playerbase, but it just doesn't have a place in DPL considering the amount of time and effort that have been put into the other tiers over the years. Whether or not we expand to 8 slots doesn't change my opinion, I would take a 4th SS slot over DUbers in an instant. The same goes for BDSP DOU, but from what I gather this has far less traction so I won't waste time talking about it. Dropping BW (which apparently some people want to do?) would also be really dumb. Playing and watching oldgens are one of the most fun parts of DPL, and we don't have a good reason to slough one off right now.
As far as number of teams and playing slots, I think we could easily pull off 6 teams 8 slots. We had 72 players in World Cup, so I have no reason to believe we couldn't field 60 for DPL. Getting more people actively involved with DPL is a good thing and makes for a more fun and active team environment. 6 teams/8 slots is far superior to 8 teams/6 slots because a 3 month long DPL does not sound very fun.
Ideally, I think we can do 8 slots with these formats (dropping 2 SS DOU if we settle on 6 slots):
SS DOU
SS DOU
SS DOU
SS DOU
SS DUU
SM DOU
XY DOU
BW DOU
i dont really care what happens what happens since I won't be participating because this tour happens during spl (which I don't really agree with moving it up at all you're stopping a couple of dou users from wanting to participate and dwcop just happened.) but I'll say my thoughts.
1: Should captains play?
Yeah sure
2: What should team composition be?
Assuming dpl can run more than 6x6 (using dwcop signups is a bad example it got more signups than dpl last year too) I think it should definitely be 8 teams and 6 slots. There's good points that tree brought up but another one is that the bye week for top seeded teams is really dumb and should be avoided at all costs. I think the only doubles tour as of recent times that kept hype for all teams through the entire tour was the first doubles wcop and I think no bye week was a big part of that. This doubles wcop had 6 teams 8 slots and I think that was a pretty noticeable downgrade, especially as someone whose team had the bye week, it really doesn't feel like a reward as the chat gets significantly less hype as we aren't playing or prepping games as much. You could argue that this was just a team problem especially since most people on team canada weren't mainers, but I don't think that's the case considering I also joined storms chat in the last week of last DPL who also had a bye week and their chat seemed very dead during this period too, it's just not a good thing to have at all and don't think 6 teams should be a thing if it's possible to avoid it.
3: What formats will be played this year?
If 6 slots just do same as last year or 3x SS DOU + oldgens. I prefer the latter as I think 3 SS DOU is actually better for getting newer non dou people into the tier as it's the tier they've prob seen a bit of and they're way more likely to get actual support but I know that's an unpopular opinion. If 8 slots I don't really see why BDSP isn't a realistic option if dubers is. I've seen much more talk abt BDSP than dubers and while that might just be because it's the shiny new toy that's fine, while dubers has a higher ladder I never seen it talked about and while bringing those people to the dou community could be cool, not only do you have to get the ladderers to sign up but managers will also have to take a risk on them which I don't think you'll see, bringing in VGCers is the only good argument I've seen but idk how realistic that is. (bowman sniped me a bit here but I agree that if 8 slots it should prob just be 4 SS DOU)
i dont really care what happens what happens since I won't be participating because this tour happens during spl (which I don't really agree with moving it up at all you're stopping a couple of dou users from wanting to participate and dwcop just happened.) but I'll say my thoughts.
I meant to touch on this and forgot, but I also don't think we need to keep DPL this early in the year. We bumped it forward last year as a snap reaction to getting axed from SPL, but I'm not convinced that was the right idea. I don't necessarily have an issue with DPL and SPL overlapping since I think we need to cater our DOU circuit schedule to the majority and the crossover is very small now, but I also think that if we can eliminate overlap where possible that can only be a good thing. Plus World Cup ended like a month ago and we're already prepping for DPL? Some more space between our two team tournaments would be nice. Unless there's a really good reason circuit-wise to have DPL this early (release the 2022 circuit ), we should consider moving it back to the April/May range.
i dont really care what happens what happens since I won't be participating because this tour happens during spl (which I don't really agree with moving it up at all you're stopping a couple of dou users from wanting to participate and dwcop just happened.) but I'll say my thoughts.
DPL isnt getting moved up. Arctic said he plans on having player signups go up on January 30th. Player signups usually last for 2 weeks and week 1 of dpl last year started on Feb 14th and ended on April 5th so its still following the same schedule.
DPL isnt getting moved up. Arctic said he plans on having player signups go up on January 30th. Player signups usually last for 2 weeks and week 1 of dpl last year started on Feb 14th and ended on April 5th so its still following the same schedule.
I'll make the case for Doubles Ubers having a slot.
As pointed out, DUbers lacks a strong forum presence. DUber's thread, relative to DUU's, is comparably quiet. However, I think if you compare the two, you'll see that the reason for DUU's increased activity is because the tier changes every 3 months. Unlike DUU, DUbers hasn't had any significant changes to Pokemon availability since the Crown Tundra DLC, whereas the DUU tier sees constant shakeup that warrants new posts to discuss the changes to VR. But it's not like DUU is receiving a disproportionate amount of discussion. Posts at the start of the third page of the thread to the fourth page of the thread span over a whole year. That's not a lot of activity relative to the amount of shifts in the metagame. DUbers has comparable forum activity in terms of discussion relative to its metagame shifts. It's not like we got gifted with Arceus after 3 months like DUU with Cresselia or something.
Perhaps by forum activity, we're including tournaments. But I think DUbers shapes up just fine here, too. The most recent DUU kickoff tour received 18 signups. This isn't a high number, no matter which way you slice it. Granted, it had no money attached like n10siT's tournaments traditionally do. If we compare the $100 money tour in DUU with the $200 money tour in DUbers, we get a reasonable comparison; 67 signups for DUU, and 131 signups for DUbers. Granted, twice the amount of money was on the line here, but if you assume signups would be relative to prizing, then DUbers received a comparable level of signups to the DUU tour. The only other DUU forum tour that I know of was the ladder tour, which was also for money, and only had 21 participants. DUbers hasn't had another tournament since our last big one, right, but I think it's a very reasonable take to assume we could match these numbers no problem. Why do I think that? Because DUbers regularly sees on average, four times the amount of ladder games per month (sample: December [DUbers] [DUU]) (sample: November [DUbers] [DUU]). If DUU's activity is sufficient for inclusion, then I would think DUbers has plenty enough to get in.
Does DUbers have consistency, or is it a volatile tier where the better player tends to lose more often than in other tiers? I think that DUbers is more consistent than people give credit for, and that's easy to show by looking at the top 8 of the last DUbers tour: myself, frania, umbry, entrocefalo, n1n1, Yuichi, TJBP_Erry, and JRL. Minimally, at least half of these should be recognized as intelligent players who are good at many different tiers of doubles.
Does DUbers have a large enough playerbase for 6 teams, or would adding DUbers rob players of their "main tier"? I think it does have enough. Here's 6 candidates just off the top of my head, if I were a DPL captain, that I would consider drafting exclusively for DUbers play:
Yuichi
ANoobWithoutAName
lord death man
Yellow Paint
Hrishioo7
nadando
That's not to mention the range of people that you could slot into DUbers that may also be slottable in other tiers. But that's no different from DUU; it'd be silly for me to say that because players like Demantoid, Actuarily, Human, or SMB were playing in DUU last DPL, that therefore DUU isn't DPL-worthy because top outsiders are playing it! If someone like zeefable, frania, or myself were drafted for DUbers play, I don't think that undermines the prestige of DPL or anything.
Is DUbers different from the rest of DOU play? Yes, and that's part of what makes it cool! Yes, Pokemon like Zacian and Calyrex are really good, and yes, Dynamaxing a DUber is a pretty strong thing to do, but all your doubles fundamentals are still there, just with a unique set of Pokemon that don't often see play in a DOU context. To be very clear: DUU should not go anywhere in DPL. DUbers is a popular, current-gen alternative to Doubles OU that many players enjoy and can compete in seriously, just as much as DUU, and I think that makes it worth considering as a slot for DPL 8.
******************************
If the illuminati doesn't want to give DUbers a go, I think another cool idea in an 8-slot DPL (which is my preference) would be a Dynamax DOU slot. There's been quite a bit of talk about freeing Dynamax, and DPL seems like a good time to invoke a "test run" of the format without forcing the playerbase to completely swap off.
I think another cool idea in an 8-slot DPL (which is my preference) would be a Dynamax DOU slot. There's been quite a bit of talk about freeing Dynamax, and DPL seems like a good time to invoke a "test run" of the format without forcing the playerbase to completely swap off.
I can tell you for sure this isn't happening - there should be a Dynamax minitour coming up soon(tm) for that test run, and I don't really like the idea of using DPL for Dynamax testing anyway.
DPL 8 will have six teams. Eight would be cool, but it's a couple weeks longer with more potential tiebreaks, and I did a fucky wucky and scheduled too many long term things at once. The shorter tournament is good, we've done that plenty already.
The current plan is for each team to have eight starting slots, in which case the format will be 3x DOU / 1x DUU / 1x DUbers / 1x SM / 1x XY / 1x BW. However, if it's immediately clear that we cannot support eight slots, we will instead return to six slots. The format for this has not yet been decided.
), we should consider moving it back to the April/May range.
