Policy Review Discussion Thread: Changes to the CAP Process at large

[tennisace]

Hi there.

As I alluded to in some recent posts, I believe a change is in order to the process. However, as usual, it's not going to be anything too major (I'm not making myself dictator yet). So, if you want to make suggestions, feel free to, but be aware that there won't be anything huge being changed, and new parts to the process won't be added.

For reference, this is the process:

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• Topic Leader Nominations/Poll
• Concept Submissions
• Concept Poll
• Concept Assessment
• Main Type Discussion
• Main Type Poll
• Secondary Type Discussion
• Secondary Type Poll
• Stat Limits
• Stat Spread Submissions
• Ability Discussion
• Ability Poll
• Secondary Ability Discussion
• Secondary Ability Poll
• Stat Spread Poll

At this point there is a split of flavor and competitive
Flavor Stages:

• Art Submissions
• Art Poll
• Name Submissions
• Name Poll
• Sprite Submissions
• Sprite Poll
• Misc Flavor Discussion
• Misc Flavor Polls

Competitive Stages:

• Attacking Moves Discussion
• Attacking Moves Poll
• Non-Attacking Moves Discussion
• Non-Attacking Moves Poll
• Complete Movepool Submissions
• Complete Movepool Poll

I have three changes to suggest.

Merge the primary and secondary typing discussions and polls.

This is something that has seemed counter-intuitive for a while now: why are these separate when the typing of a Pokemon is a combined thing? For example, on its own, Steel is a great defensive typing. It can either be combined with something like Fire or Ice for more offensive power, or with Grass or Bug for more defensive usefulness. This will not exclude single-typed CAP Pokemon, in fact, I think rebranding this as the "Typing Discussion/Poll" will encourage more people to suggest pure types, since there will no longer be any separate discussion of a secondary type. All in all, I think this is a fair change that will allow us to explore a bit more.

Merge the Attacking and Non-Attacking discussions and polls.

This is running off the idea that movepools are a conglomeration of both attacking and non attacking moves. The discussion should incorporate both sides of the movepool, since some people might want say "Hurricane but not Nasty Plot" or "Tail Glow but not Bug Buzz". As it is currently set up, you have to first vote on whether or not Hurricane/Bug Buzz are in the movepool, then whether or not you want Nasty Plot or Tail Glow. By that point, one or both of the attacking moves may be eliminated. This means that your opinion as a voter has not been fully expressed, since with a combined poll, you could vote yes on Hurricane but no on Nasty Plot. As it is currently set up, you do not get that choice sometimes.

Move all of the flavor portions of the CAP until after the last competitive poll.

This suggestion has been debated, discussed, and dissected forever. The fact remains that this is a competitive project. It always has been. It always will be. I love seeing the art as much as the next guy, however, I hate having to infract people for posting in the movepool threads "THIS POKEMON ISNT HORNY ENOUGH FOR MEGAHORN" and the like. If we are a competitive project, we should attempt to keep the process as competitive as possible and limit the amount of bias voters have towards competitive parts of the Pokemon. One potential compromise I would be willing to discuss is opening the art submissions a bit later in the process, but still keeping the art polls, names, and sprites after the process. However this may encourage voting on movepool for your favorite art piece which is still undesirable.

In conclusion, I believe these changes will streamline and better the process while making it easier to moderate and easier to follow.

Edit: was reminded of this point:

Counters Discussion should be merged with Concept Assessment

I would like to actually merge it with the concept assessment, i.e. come up with a few things that should be able to stop it, and come up with a few things it should be able to stop. That also gives concept assessment an actual "output".

 

[Deck Knight]

Merge the primary and secondary typing discussions and polls.

This is something that has seemed counter-intuitive for a while now: why are these separate when the typing of a Pokemon is a combined thing? For example, on its own, Steel is a great defensive typing. It can either be combined with something like Fire or Ice for more offensive power, or with Grass or Bug for more defensive usefulness. This will not exclude single-typed CAP Pokemon, in fact, I think rebranding this as the "Typing Discussion/Poll" will encourage more people to suggest pure types, since there will no longer be any separate discussion of a secondary type. All in all, I think this is a fair change that will allow us to explore a bit more.

This is much more plausible this Gen than last Gen, since the brutal fact of the matter is 5th Gen OU has an absurd level of power creep such that the combined typing of a Pokemon is critical. We will in all likelihood end up with a bigger poll in the end-run by combining these options.

Merge the Attacking and Non-Attacking discussions and polls.

This is running off the idea that movepools are a conglomeration of both attacking and non attacking moves. The discussion should incorporate both sides of the movepool, since some people might want say "Hurricane but not Nasty Plot" or "Tail Glow but not Bug Buzz". As it is currently set up, you have to first vote on whether or not Hurricane/Bug Buzz are in the movepool, then whether or not you want Nasty Plot or Tail Glow. By that point, one or both of the attacking moves may be eliminated. This means that your opinion as a voter has not been fully expressed, since with a combined poll, you could vote yes on Hurricane but no on Nasty Plot. As it is currently set up, you do not get that choice sometimes.

We've spent the bulk of our time trying to unclusterfuck the Movepool threads, and this puts us right back at square one. As it stands, the best move we can make instead of changing this process is to allow the TL to decide whether we should do attacking or non-attacking moves first depending on which is more important. In Tomohawk, Prankster would have necessitated doing non-attacking first because of the power Prankster can have if left to run free.

This is a case where I think more discretion, not a process change, would be more beneficial.

Move all of the flavor portions of the CAP until after the last competitive poll.

This suggestion has been debated, discussed, and dissected forever. The fact remains that this is a competitive project. It always has been. It always will be. I love seeing the art as much as the next guy, however, I hate having to infract people for posting in the movepool threads "THIS POKEMON ISNT HORNY ENOUGH FOR MEGAHORN" and the like. If we are a competitive project, we should attempt to keep the process as competitive as possible and limit the amount of bias voters have towards competitive parts of the Pokemon. One potential compromise I would be willing to discuss is opening the art submissions a bit later in the process, but still keeping the art polls, names, and sprites after the process. However this may encourage voting on movepool for your favorite art piece which is still undesirable.

In conclusion, I believe these changes will streamline and better the process while making it easier to moderate and easier to follow.

That flavor argument crap is just something we have to deal with as mods. A warning isn't so onerous that it discourages participation anyway. Also remember that at a bare minimum we do need a sprite of some kind to go online. Just putting a bunch of soulless numbers together simply isn't going to attract the playerbase we need, and additionally the current process flows together smoothly so all parts end up being done at about the same time. The art does inform the process, but peoples concept of what the Pokemon is supposed to do also informs the art, even if on a technical level that's poll-jumping. Believe me, we'd see a precipitous drop in participation if we didn't have all the lurkers that the art/sprite threads attract. People love watching the art and sprite threads and discussing their favorite designs, and it really gets them excited to visualize the CAP in action, even if the sim doesn't have any animation whatsoever. It's a psychological mechanism that really helps keep people motivated because they feel like they're working on a unique, living creature.

Even on a competitive note, if we make a Pokemon weak to either Grass or Fighting, its Weight is rather important, and assigning a competitively minded weight to something could potentially skew the art one way or another. All in all the process we have now bears out most of these problems despite some minor irritation.

So in summary I think 5th Gen Metagames have enough power creep that type is better suited as a cohesive whole, but I disagree with revamping the process on movepools and flavor. Movepool issues are better left as an issue of discretion, and as irritating as it can be to moderate, the art and sprite flavor elements pull a lot of people in. I'm sure some of our artists can speak to this better than I, but even I enjoy looking at how the work is progressing and seeing all the criticisms of design elements.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Merge the primary and secondary typing discussions and polls.

The only thing I can think of is that the mention of secondary typings in the primary poll was prohibited to avoid poll jumping, but it won't matter if we go on with the discussions/polls combined from the start.

I think it's a good change since it also gives an individual person a better chance in arguing/promoting a type combination they think is good for the concept. You can argue from the beginning now instead of hoping the primary type was one of the ones you wanted.

Merge the Attacking and Non-Attacking discussions and polls.

With the current models of "ranking" moves and how they are to be proposed and submitted, merging A and NA moves together requires a ton of effort and moves to manage in one step. More importantly to me, the differences in the two types of moves are just too great to group them all together. Move effects bring a huge part to fulfilling concepts and seperating these from moves dedicated to mainly damage output is the best way.

Move all of the flavor portions of the CAP until after the last competitive poll.

I really don't know about this one (meaning the subject of flavor itself, not your proposal). Flavor has its place in CAP. Competitiveness is the number one focus, but flavor is needed for some small aspects. I support in holding any flavor steps until all competitive topics has been completed (because no matter what, on some level, flavor characteristics can affect the submissions that participants bring in), but I think the current CAP process is quite smooth and any small flaws regarding this can be overlooked somewhat.

In response to Deck Knight, speaking of characteristics like weight, shouldn't stuff like that be discussed shortly after moves like Low Kick or Grass Knot have been passed (if they haven't been already)?

Counters Discussion should be merged with Concept Assessment

I'm not too objected to this, though we would probably have to be on the vague or broad side as we shouldn't name specific Pokemon or types threats to stop the concept. But then there would still be a lot to talk about in regards to counters if we didn't go over it in detail before. Whatever others think on this one.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I agree with point one and disagree with the other two.

The Pokemon's value in terms of its typing is based on the combination of its two types, not just the first and the second apart. This is something that's always bothered me about CAP, in that we do it in steps. I fully support merging the two parts into a single "typing" stage.

I, however, strongly disagree with merging NAM and AM. They serve very different roles in the Pokemon, and accomplish vastly different things. The movepool stage is also, for anyone who has made a movepool, a very difficult aspect of the CAP-creation process. I'm not okay with smashing those two sections together at the expense of the general learning and understanding of the community as to how those two stages function.

Also, I stand opposed to the moving of flavor aspects of the CAP until after the process. I don't want to discuss the pre-evos here, because they have their own PR topic dedicated to them and where they should be placed. However, I think that having the art is pivotal for knowing what flavor moves to include in a movepool. I also think that the movepool needs to be handled as a single entity, and not split up into "these are the competitive moves we voted on, now throw in flavor". Deck also raises incredibly valid points that Doug has echoed in times long past; the art is vital to the success and vast participation of the project. Moving it toward the end will cut a substantial amount of participation in the competitive aspects of the project. This is a compromise we'll always have to make. Yeah, this is a competitive project first and foremost, but it's a project that has to have flavor embedded into it to work and exist at all. I think that's important and shouldn't change.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Merge the primary and secondary typing discussions and polls.

I suspect this is going to cause some new problems, but I definitely think we should try it out and see how it goes. There are enough problems with the current two-step typing process, that we should mix it up a bit and try something new. I think we'll have somewhat of a "shitstorm effect" by putting every possible type combination up for grabs in a single discussion thread, but we've come up with better process mechanisms for handling shitstorms in general, so perhaps it won't be too terrible.

Merge the Attacking and Non-Attacking discussions and polls.

Ugh. I don't disagree with Tennisace that the current division makes it hard to reasonably discuss certain movepool concepts. But like Deck Knight said, we have worked for a long time to try and clean up the movepool discussion clusterfuck, and this would kinda throw us right back to where we were. I don't disagree that the movepool process needs improvement, but I'm not sure this is the right way to do it. I don't have any alternative proposal, though. I've tried my best on the movepool thing, and I'm out of ideas there. Maybe it's just doomed to be a mess...

Move all of the flavor portions of the CAP until after the last competitive poll.

As Tennisace admitted, this has been discussed a whole lot in the past. I won't rehash all my previous arguments on this -- I'll just mention the most important two:

1) Whether you officially sanction it or not on the forum -- art submissions will be made and publicized VERY EARLY in the CAP process. You cannot prevent it. That's the reason we decided to open the thread so early -- because artists were making submissions and posting links and pics all over the place, literally as soon as typing was decided. Heck, nowadays, many artists start making sketches and posting them on IRC and Smeargle's Studio while the FIRST typing thread is still under discussion!

You are crazy if you think that art will sit around and wait until the competitive project is finished. It won't happen. Some of you may be thinking -- "So what? Let them post their art outside of CAP. Just keep it out of the forum until the competitive stuff is complete."

If that's what you think, then let me rephrase what you are advocating -- "I want the most popular aspect of the CAP project to be conducted largely outside of CAP, unmoderated by CAP mods and unsupervised by the assigned Topic Leader. I want to encourage CAP members to congregate, organize, collaborate, and participate somewhere other than CAP and Smogon."

That is not a great way to fuel participation and interest in CAP. Which leads to...

2) Art is the most popular, accessible, and dramatic aspect of CAP. Whether you love the art or hate the art -- EVERYBODY watches and participates. I realize the massive amount of attention heaped on art can be distracting, but don't dismiss the amazing advertising value that art (and other flavor steps) gives the project. Everyone that participates and votes in flavor is a potential future participant in the competitive aspects of CAP. We should strive to keep a nice balance of flavor and competitive throughout the entirety of each CAP.

Counters Discussion should be merged with Concept Assessment

I have always wanted to see greater focus placed on making very clear counters for CAP pokemon. I would like our process to place greater emphasis on it as well. I would like CAP counters to be defined very early and defined very clearly -- as in, I would like to see counters listed as an aspect of the pokemon that must be adhered to throughout the remainder of the process. I think it would add a lot more focus to all competitive discussions. I also think it would make the CAP metagame more accessible, if clear, hard counters were established for every CAP. I could type A LOT more arguments about why clear, hard counters are a good thing for CAP -- and I really don't want to derail this into that kind of PR. But in general, I support emphasizing counters more, and if this change does that -- you get a big thumbs up from me.

 

[Deck Knight]

Counters Discussion should be merged with Concept Assessment

I would like to actually merge it with the concept assessment, i.e. come up with a few things that should be able to stop it, and come up with a few things it should be able to stop. That also gives concept assessment an actual "output".

This was added after my initial response but I'd have separated this out anyway since it requires a longer dissertation.

On the surface this seems like a good idea, but remember that concept assessment comes before typing. It would be extremely limiting for us to decide for example that Thundurus should counter our CAP and thereby alter going forward almost every stage. Does having a hard counter in Thundurus mean we have to be careful about typings that include Ground? Does it mean we have to limit a special attack stat to say, values less than 120 because Hidden Power would be able to 2HKO?

I understand its not going to be *that* limiting. After all, Skarmory *can* beat Tyranitar if it runs speed and has Steel Wing, but its not practical and Steel STAB isn't used on its most prevalent sets.

What would end up happening I think is we would more tepidly move into a long list of checks that is invariably ignored later, because all these checks were chosen before we even had a typing, much less stats or an ability. Grass/Fighting typing for example pretty much tells Excadrill to shove off as a check unless we require our stat spreads to have low physical defense and deny a fighting priority attack.

The thrust of my argument is basically that having a counters discussion at the concept assessment stage invites even more vagueness than it does at its current stage, where at least we have some idea of what the Pokemon is supposed to do on paper. If our current environment of partial information fails to make us consider counters seriously, an environment of less information will go in one of two opposing, equally undesirable directions:

1. Counters Discussion is taken to the most literal extent and it chokes every poll from there on out, dictating things like type and stats before any real discussion develops over further choices. This prevents the project from growing more organically because we decided a list of various Pokemon should stop a CAP cold before any parameters of the CAP were really understood.

2. The results of the Counters Discussion is drastically altered in short order after the next poll because typing alone turns some counters into checks at best and others into set-up bait. This means the counters discussion was essentially for naught, and people jockey in the chaos for which counters are the least threatening and metagame relevant as the Pokemon meant to blockade the CAP.

So I would agree something needs to be done with counters discussion, but I don't think placing it with concept assessment is the right way to go.

To be honest, I think the best place for a counters discussion is after the typing poll.

This gives us an idea of what will and will not be a viable check or counter, because the type chart is the primary determinant of that. Moves can shift some of the checks and counters around, but basically if your typing is Ghost, unless we give you Focus Punch or Focus Blast normal and dark types will walk all over you, and you will have some level of difficulty dealing with Steel types that can use special attacks (as Ghosts usually have WoW as a built-in assumption, poll jumping or no.)

Additionally, doing it after typing still gives us time to sort out abilities for Pokemon we do not want to check our Pokemon based on type. The sheer number of immunity abilities in 5th Gen helps facilitate this, and it allows us to operate with a decent level of knowledge without turning into a free-for-all. If we do the counters discussion after type, but before stats and ability (where it currently resides after), we will actually be able to enforce the listing without constraining creativity or flexibility.

 

[tennisace]

Conceding my points on art and movepool stuff.

I will implement the typing change and I'll write that up soon so we can copyedit and get it up soon.

Going to make a separate thread for the counter discussion.