Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)

[G-Von]

I really need to make it to a voting round one of these days...

Anyway I really like the Ferrothorn selection since we can choose another pokemon right after to help it do its job better. The thing is, I don't care for the particular variant that's been nominated. Therefore, I shall present mine:

Ferrothorn@Leftovers
EV's: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Def
Trait: Iron Barbs
Careful Nature
-Power Whip
-Thunder Wave
-Leech Seed
-Knock Off

Alright so this is a bit of an odd selection and I am fully aware of that. This variant of Ferrothorn dominates both currently selected pokemon on Team 2. Greninja can only 4HKO it at best while Dragonite might 5HKO it, and those chances get worse if Ferrothorn is able to Leech Seed them. I definitely think Thunder Wave is a great move because non-ground and electric pokemon have to fear switching into it, along with having to worry about Knock Off. The list of pokemon that don't fear T-wave+Knock Off are the mega evolutions of Garchomp, Ampharos, and Manetric. I was really worried what move to put in that last spot but figured the utility of Knock Off made it a viable option. Since this is a T-Wave variant, Gyro Ball will not fit well here so that's why it has Power Whip. People were also saying how they don't want to select a hazard setter so early so that's why I opted out of giving it either Spikes or SR.

Honestly, if Halcyon. were to put T-Wave on his variant of Ferrothorn, I would possibly just withdraw this selection altogether lol I really feel like its THAT great support move on Ferrothorn. As always, I am open to criticism.

 

[Homeslice]

Nominating

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Neither of Team 2's current mons can do much damage, as Dragonite has a chance to 4hko and Greninja has a very slight chance to 5hko. Chansey can just come in and do whatever she wants to either in the mean time, paralyzing the switch-in or healing up the team through Wish or whatever cleric move we use. Chansey also baits a fighting type or something commonly using Knock Off i.e. Bisharp, bot of which Landorus are okay with and don't enjoy paralysis. Countering Thunder Wave also promotes an electric type which landorus doesn't mind so long as they aren't Electric/Flying.

If we don't choose a paralysis user this round, I highly suggest doing so soon as it is one of the easiest ways to cripple Team 2 right now.

 

[Mowtom]

Nominating

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell / Aromatherapy (Not sure if either causes legality issues)

Neither of Team 2's current mons can do much damage, as Dragonite has a chance to 4hko and Greninja has a very slight chance to 5hko. Chansey can just come in and do whatever she wants to either in the mean time, paralyzing the switch-in or healing up the team through Wish or whatever cleric move we use. Chansey also baits a fighting type or something commonly using Knock Off i.e. Bisharp, bot of which Landorus are okay with and don't enjoy paralysis. Countering Thunder Wave also promotes an electric type which landorus doesn't mind so long as they aren't Electric/Flying.

If we don't choose a paralysis user this round, I highly suggest doing so soon as it is one of the easiest ways to cripple Team 2 right now.

Aromatherapy is illegal with Wish, so you might want to remove it. I like the idea, though!

 

[Halcyon.]

Alright I like the nominations being made so far. I'd like to see a little bit more discussion, but I want to let everyone know that I'll start voting tomorrow.

 

[Homeslice]

Aromatherapy is illegal with Wish, so you might want to remove it. I like the idea, though!

Fixed, thanks

 

[Inspirited]

Vaporeon provides great team support, through Wish, and the combination of Scald & Toxic allow it to hurt a number of switch-ins available to Team 2. Like the last two proposed team members, Vaporeon provides great defensive synergy but no offensive presence. This provides teams 2 with options such as; Mega Venusaur, Mega Abomasnow (which can OHKO Landorus with Ice Shard) and Thundurus-I.

I was actually trying to force team 2s Mega to be Venusaur because I have a rather nasty idea of how to get Landorus in for free on it. I can't show my hand yet for obvious reasons ;)

Abomasnow was something I thought about afterward and I have an idea of what to nominate to deal with it but it is less solid because it is a Rotom forme (H) and I can't nominate it of course if Wash is nominated. This one I'm OK with sharing because there are other options to deal with the Fizzmass tree and I also wanted to show that another Rotom-Heat might help better than Wash later down the line. I dislike nominating specific formes early on.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Bored so I though I'd go over the noms :)

Ferrothorn: Walls the shit out of Team 2's Pokemon atm. However, it could lead to problems down the road, such as the ones Tomahawk brought up.

Rotom-W: My own nom :D Kinda already went over it in my post so I won't go over it again haha. Possible flaws are hating Special walls, but something like Scizor could help with that.

Vaporeon: Nice and bulky, however, I feel it could lose momentum for our team pretty easily. Also doesn't take on Dragonite as well as Sylveon.

Slowbro: Not bad per say, I just feel like continual pressure from U-Turn Greninja will make this thing hard to use, especially if Team 2 decides to run something like Bisharp

Deo-S: I don't really like this personally. I don't think it can really keep SR on the opponents side of the field, and it basically has to be brought in by Lando's U-Turn. It also hate Dragonite's ESpeed.

Kyurem-B: This is actually a pretty good pick. The only thing I don't like about it is it basically forces us to run some way to remove hazards, or else this thing will get worn down way to easy.

Sylveon: Basically the exact same as Vaporeon, except slightly better imo.

Azumarill: A pretty cool pick that I nom'd last round (why did you skip me Hacylon ;_;) it's nice and bulky and can reliably take on Greninja. I feel like this may get worn down too easy, though.

Clefable: I personally like Specs Sylveon better, as it could keep momentum up with Baton Pass and hit super fucking hard. I feel as though mono-attacking Clefable is pretty easy to wall by Team 2. Not my favorite nom.

Weavile: Very similar to Deo-S in that it can't really switch in, well, any attacking move, and hates ESpeed. Very powerful, though, and puts a lot of pressure on Team 2 when it can come in.

Mega Scizor: A little too early to be choosing our Mega Pokemon tbh. I guess this could work well, but Team 2 could easily add like ScarfTran to revenge kill it. Overall, though, I could see this being a helpful choice if we're willing to use our Mega Evolution early.

Other Ferrothorn: Basically the same as Hacylon... Not sure I'm a fan of Knock Off>Protect, though.

Chansey: Really don't like just Wish on Chansey; Soft-Boiled either needs to be the only healing option, or used in combination with Wish to avoid getting worn down. I could also see this thing becoming serious set-up fotter for something like Mega Mawile, too.

Anyways these were a little more critical, I was more trying to address possible flaws then go over the Pokemon's strengths (which people already list in their post.) I honestly feel, though, that all the nominations so far are great. My two favorite right now would probably be Kyurem-B and either AV Azumarill/Sylveon, along with my Rotom-W ;). Though if Reprobate wants to bring back Specs Sylveon, I'd totally vote for that instead of Azumarill/Defensive Sylveon.

 

[Inspirited]

Rotom-W: My own nom :D Kinda already went over it in my post so I won't go over it again haha. Possible flaws are hating Special walls, but something like Scizor could help with that.

I personally think it is kind of early for a Rotom Forme with all due respect. Rotom-Heat comes to mind right now since we may have to deal with a team 2 Megasnow or Abomasnow in general, since it deals with all of the Water-type Nominees and Landorus hates it also. I know Megasnow and Abomasnow are rather niche but niche things work a lot better in a project like this so they aren't to be slept upon by any means. Rotom-Cut may also help us out with something down the line also, you just never know. Rotom by itself also has its uses.

These first few rounds are a pain in the Arceus when it comes to choosing the right things. We are almost in the clear though, just keep your mettle until rounds 6-12 when teams really start developing and the archetypes are more noticeable and set in stone.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I personally think it is kind of early for a Rotom Forme with all due respect. Rotom-Heat comes to mind right now since we may have to deal with a team 2 Megasnow or Abomasnow in general, since it deals with all of the Water-type Nominees and Dragonite hates it also. I know Megasnow and Abomasnow are rather niche but niche things work a lot better in a project like this so they aren't to be slept upon by any means. Rotom-Cut may also help us out with something down the line also, you just never know. Rotom by itself also has its uses.

These first few rounds are a pain in the Arceus when it comes to choosing the right things. We are almost in the clear though, just keep your mettle until rounds 6-12 when teams really start developing and the archetypes are more noticeable and set in stone.

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean. Though to be completely honest Mega Abomasnow really shits on like half the nominations... Not only that but Scizor can handle Mega Abomasnow pretty easily. Also, Rotom-H leaves use quite vulnerable to Greninja, something we have nothing for atm.

 

[Arhan]

Hmm so our pokemon must be able to counter both dragonite and greninja and have great synergy with lando?hmm tough call,revenge killer is easy though(just slap scarf latios in their face)

 

[Red Cat]

Halcyon. , can I get a little clarification on what we are trying to do here? It seems like Team 1 has the easier task here. Whatever wins this round will have both of Team 2's first and second picks countered. Likewise, Team 1 can probably use its 4th pick to counter picks 3 and 4 for Team 2, and its 6th pick to counter picks 5 and 6 for Team 2. All Team 1 has to do with picks 3 and 5 is pick something offensive which puts pressure on Team 2 to respond defensively. The point I am trying to make is that by the nature of what we are doing here, it doesn't seem as important to build a cohesive team as it is to counter individual threats on the opposing team. It doesn't seem to really matter what we pick for Team 1 here, since Team 2 will select something to counter that, and Team 1 will select something to counter the counterthreat later.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Well

Quagsire
Item: Leftovers
Ability: UNAWARE (DO NOT FUCK THIS UP)
Nature: Sassy
EVs: 248 HP, 252 SDef, 8 Spd
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Encore
- Recover

Fun fact: Quagsire is Murica'n for "I'm completely not giving a fuck atm m8"

Swiggity Swag can you handle the Quag. Before I say anything, I want to let everyone know that the EVs and Nature can be switched around to make a defensive set, so YAH. Anyways, if you haven't seen this set somewhere in OU, then you obviously are a UU person. Scald is for burns, which is *fabulous*. But it has no other use unless you can super effectively hit something with it (which that base 65 special attack doesn't exactly help). Earthquake, which the base 85 sorta helps, is a good STAB that can do some damage to go along with your burn (remember, 30 percent is 100 percent in pokemaths). Encore is amazing, because it just can fuck up literally anything that isn't trying to hurt you. Recover is recovery, and is amazingly annoying. Now, Unaware is there because we see a lot of setting up in OU, well, Unaware flips the middle finger at them, and completely ignores that! This makes it hard to KO Quagsire. But like, seriously, it's important you have this, no Water Absorb or anything dumb

Quagsire for president.

 

[vyomov]

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 282-333 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm not too sure just how Quagsire is supposed to be helping us counter Greninja right now without Water Absorb. Even with Water Absorb:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Water Absorb Quagsire: 231-273 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quagsire is a good mon, but if we HAVE to pick something defensive first, I'd rather choose a pick that can wall both Dragonite AND Greninja - something like Sylveon for instance.

 

[Random Passerby]

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Low Kick
-Ice Shard

I'd like to nominate Weavile for this round, for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, Band Weavile is one of the few mons that can KO Dragonite(even with the HP investment) through Multiscale, while also being able to KO Greninja with barely any prior damage.
Band Weavile also offers a lot of offensive support for Landorus as it can Knock Off leftovers from walls, making it easier for Landorus to get the KO.
I feel that a defensive pick is one that should occur later in the project, as it is better to pick a wall once we know one or two more of the threats we have to deal with.

With Band Weavile, you can generate pressure on the opponent but you also need to predict correctly because selecting the wrong move means it will be OHKOed most of the time. It is also very difficult to switch in, only free to do so on Greninja's Extrasensory or after a teammate dies. Most of the time you will want to spam Knock Off/ Ice Punch but Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard X, Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr and Mega Mawile are 3HKOed at worst after Stealth Rock. This means you will be forced out and a team mate will have to eat a powerful attack or be set up on. Due to the difficulty in bringing it in and the fact that you need to predict correctly to gain rewards, I feel that Weavile is not suitable for now.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 282-333 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm not too sure just how Quagsire is supposed to be helping us counter Greninja right now without Water Absorb. Even with Water Absorb:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Water Absorb Quagsire: 231-273 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quagsire is a good mon, but if we HAVE to pick something defensive first, I'd rather choose a pick that can wall both Dragonite AND Greninja - something like Sylveon for instance.

Well, if actually fucking read what I wrote, I said this could be changed to the specially defensive variant.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It really would've been awesome if you read it, like seriously, it would've been amazing. And I'll actually change it to that for your pleasure -_-

And I'm not done yet, here's dragonite:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And we have scald. To...I don't know...fucking burn the Dragonite?

I know you had to object but you're wrong. Sorry.

 

[Random Passerby]

Quagsire. Hmmm
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

True, Earthquake hurts but it only 2HKOs Greninja, which shows how weak Quagsire attack really is. The only thing it does is wall Dragonite while being set-up bait itself (or forced out) by most OU threats

EDIT: Oh, thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change the fact that you are set-up bait to Sub users / physical attackers though . (physical attackers only fear the 30% chance of burn which can be mitigated with Lum Berry)

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Quagsire. Hmmm
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Quagsire: 207-243 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Quagsire: 168-199 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means Ice Beam followed by Hydro Pump will have a high chance to murder Quagsire even with all the SpD investment. True, Earthquake hurts but it only 2HKOs Greninja, which shows how weak Quagsire attack really is. The only thing it does is wall Dragonite while being set-up bait itself (or forced out) by most OU threats

You forgot to add the beneficial nature. This calcs mean nothing otherwise.

But, like the other guy, if you read what I wrote then you'll see I have the proper calcs.

EDIT: Oh, thanks for pointing that out. Doesn't change the fact that you are set-up bait to Sub users / physical attackers though . (physical attackers only fear the 30% chance of burn which can be mitigated with Lum Berry)

Thanks, but once again, if you read it, Unaware completely cancels that out.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Well, if actually fucking read what I wrote, I said this could be changed to the specially defensive variant.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It really would've been awesome if you read it, like seriously, it would've been amazing. And I'll actually change it to that for your pleasure -_-

And I'm not done yet, here's dragonite:

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And we have scald. To...I don't know...fucking burn the Dragonite?

I know you had to object but you're wrong. Sorry.

Well, with Stealth Rock damage Quagsire still loses to Greninja as it has a very high chance of being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, so idk what you mean? Before you bash someone you might want to make sure that you can back it up first.

Anyways among the nominations I'm liking the SDef Rotom-W and Ferrothorns, as well as AV Azumarill (although I'm a bit worried about U-turn + residual damage racking up eventually). The rest imo aren't as great because they either can't switch in directly or can be easily pressured later on.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Well, with Stealth Rock damage Quagsire still loses to Greninja as it has a very high chance of being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, so idk what you mean? Before you bash someone you might want to make sure that you can back it up first.

Anyways among the nominations I'm liking the SDef Rotom-W and Ferrothorns, as well as AV Azumarill (although I'm a bit worried about U-turn + residual damage racking up eventually). The rest imo aren't as great because they either can't switch in directly or can be easily pressured later on.

Yeah, shouldn't have been like that. All I'm saying is just please read all I wrote, because there was a crazy amount of ignorance of what I wrote. Otherwise, I can admit I forgot SR.

 

[Random Passerby]

Thanks, but once again, if you read it, Unaware completely cancels that out.

Not Mold Breaker users (like Mega Gyarados)

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Not Mold Breaker users (like Mega Gyarados)

If I'm correct, there are now opposing mold breaker users

 

[vyomov]

Well, if actually fucking read what I wrote, I said this could be changed to the specially defensive variant.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It really would've been awesome if you read it, like seriously, it would've been amazing. And I'll actually change it to that for your pleasure -_-
I know you had to object but you're wrong. Sorry.

Firstly, I'd request that you calm down and not take things personally - this is not a question of who's right or who's wrong, but of how the submission can be optimized to suit the project.
Secondly, while I did read through the submission and I saw the possibility to change to a SDef variant, the problem is that even this does not solve Quagsire's problems as a Greninja counter entirely, since it takes quite a lot of damage from a Hydro Pump and Greninja can always then U-Turn out to a potential Quagsire counter/ a win condition that can set-up on Quagsire easily.
Thirdly, the main problem I had with this submission(and most defensive submissions in general) is that it has little offensive presence, which means that the opponent is not unduly pressured to tackle Quagsire - Grass-type coverage on any set can deter Quagsire switch-ins or beat it without many issues. Changing the physically defensive set does not solve that problem(although I'd like to reiterate here that this is my personal opinion - it might still be a wonderful choice despite the lack of offensive pressure)
Lastly, I'd like to thank you for putting in the time to address some of my concerns and for changing the set to a SDef set, which does alleviate some of my concerns regarding Quagsire.

With Band Weavile, you can generate pressure on the opponent but you also need to predict correctly because selecting the wrong move means it will be OHKOed most of the time. It is also very difficult to switch in, only free to do so on Greninja's Extrasensory or after a teammate dies. Most of the time you will want to spam Knock Off/ Ice Punch but Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard X, Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr and Mega Mawile are 3HKOed at worst after Stealth Rock. This means you will be forced out and a team mate will have to eat a powerful attack or be set up on. Due to the difficulty in bringing it in and the fact that you need to predict correctly to gain rewards, I feel that Weavile is not suitable for now.

Firstly, thanks a lot for commenting on the submission, I really appreciate the time you took to view the submission and post your views on it.
While I do agree that Weavile is very prediction reliant, I feel that in a project like this(where the two teams will be handed to highly competent players), the ability to predict correctly will be present, allowing Weavile to do well.
However, I completely agree with you on the lack of possible switch-ins for Weavile, although I still believe Weavile could make a decent pick for this round

 

[G-Von]

Can we get on with the voting already? I think most of the picks are good options.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok sorry for the delay, I was going to post the other day but then for some reason it wouldn't let me link the posts to the name. It's still not letting em do it but the wait has gone on long enough so I'm just going to start voting now anyway. So I'm sorry but you guys will just have to manually go back and check each Pokemon if you want specifics on the set :x

SR Ferrothorn
Def Rotom-W
Wish Pass Vaporeon
Def Slowbro
LO Deoxys-S
Sub Kyurem-B
Fatass Chansey
Unaware Quagsire
Def Sylveon
Assault Vest Azumarill
Unaware Clefable
CB Weavile
SD Mega Scizor
Twave Ferro

This is probably enough for 3 votes each so everyone PM me your top three choices both in the subject of your PM and in the message. this makes it easy for me to skim though my PMs and tally the votes without necessarily having to open them, thanks n_n Voting will end in two days on Monday May 5th!

 

[Homeslice]

Halcyon.
You forgot Chansey and Quagsire