Considering putting some NFE Pokemon into the UU or BL Tier

[ODDish]

For example, the fact that there is no Blissey, Tyranitar or Heatran would mean that the unevolved forms of special attacking pokemon would probably not carry Focus Blast.

There are however Clefable, Cradily and Probopass so a fighting type special attacks are not completely redundent ... Glaceon for example will routinely carry HP: Fighting.

You can stretch it further and say that most NFEs are hit less hard by Low Kick and Grass Knot.

I think that perhaps this is stretching it a little too far ...

Low Kick is learned by Primape, Sudowoodo, Cacturne and Lopunny none of whom routinely use it.

Grass Knot is learned by a much greater range of pokemon, but as far as special type grass attacks Energy Ball is generally preffered as it does more damage to Lanturn.

 

[Slobroking]

gligar should be allowed atleast

kadabra, rhydon, dusclops and chansey shouldn't be allowed, but the other pre-evos arent really a problem (unless I missed something ;o)

 

[eric the espeon]

So as far as I can see most people don't see the need to continue banning NFE's simply due to the fact that they have a strong evolution.
We should make a list of those NFE's that should be tested and/or banned, here is a WIP one made by darkflagrence with a few edits by me.

List of NFEs that would be banned from UU.
These would be too strong for UU.

Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)
Dusclops (It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather)
Snover (auto-weather)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)

Questionable Metagame Influence – It is harder to determine whether the following would break the UU metagame. The question of whether to send the following to Borderline or allow them in UU may be debated:

Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a lowish base attack (95) but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might break UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edgeand Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it would counter Pinsir handily though.)
Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)

Please suggest changes to this list.

For reference this is the old NFEs Pokemon in UU thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259

 

[ODDish]

Chansey & Dusclops - need more explicit reasons as to why they are proposed to be banned them ...

Gligar - It's role as potential Pinsir counter is no longer relevant.

 

[Murkrow]

Chansey & Dusclops - need more explicit reasons as to why they are proposed to be banned them ...

Quite frankly, whether they are overpowered or not, I do not think anyone will agree to their inclusion in UU due to the "OU-lite principle." For the same reasons that you (was it you?) said you would be absolutely against Snover/Hippopotas. I doubt the weather changers would be broken at all (given their horrendous base stats), but people expect UU to be different. And while I support allowing stuff like Gabite, I definitely think allowing Chansey/Dusclops/Snover/Hippopotas would be going too far, even if it may not be strictly overpowered (which is probably true, since they're proposing unbanning all of BL to be tested, which really raises the ceiling here).

 

[Bliksem]

Can someone develop an OU-lite team? I'm afraid I'm not understanding this point very well. How would Metang function like Metagross? Base 75 attack is a long way away from base 135. Base 100 defense is inferior to base 130. How would Shelgon function like Salamence? Salamence has almost DOUBLE the amount of special attack as Shelgon, and Intimidate is a lot different from Rock Head. They even have different typings. Shelgon can't even learn Earthquake. Gyarados and Magikarp... moving on.

Gliscor and Gligar against Heracross and Pinsir. Is there really a problem with this? Diglett and Dugtrio... what is Diglett going to do with 10 base HP and 55 attack? I don't see that revenge killing too much. I'm pretty sure even Flareon could survive and OHKO with random move. I see Sneasel as a good inclusion, but a lot of UU Pokemon have the ability to learn Power Gem. Perhaps Sneasel can have enough of an effect to warrant its use.

Charizard and Charmeleon. If people really want to use it, I say be my guest. But personally, I wouldn't feel very comfortable if my highest stats were just 80 and the next highest was 65. I really doubt it would be very effective, but people would have that option. But Charizard's special forms use Air Slash. I'm certain Charmeleon would have to do something else, which wouldn't be very reminiscant of OU, I think.

 

[xcfrisco]

Again, let me re-iterate that the "OU-lite" argument isn't valid at all

The only purpose of UU is a tier in which, All Ubers, OU, and BL pokemon are banned.

If you hate seeing the same bog-standard strategies every game, you can either A.) make your own mod-server or B.) stop playing competitive pokemon.

 

[Murkrow]

That may be true, but if BL-level Pokemon are to be unbanned for testing, as has been proposed, I don't think you could really justify the BL status of Chansey, Dusclops, and the NFE weather-changers. (i.e. is Chansey really more broken in UU than Blissey in OU?)

...which means you could make some sort of team like Gligar, Chansey, Dusclops, Cloyster, Magneton, Pinsir (don't bother picking out the weaknesses, that's not the point), a team that really reeks of OU-lite. While I'm all for unbanning NFEs, I think you'd have to be very careful with these issues, and that, while it's easy to say "let's just ban Chansey so it won't be like OU-lite," that may not be really consistent with power-based determination of tiers.

This isn't a great argument. What you are saying is people like playing UU because of what THEY want implemented in a tier. I don't like stall in OU and I think putting Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet into OU was unnecessary. Do I stop playing OU cause its not the "experience" I want? No, I have to deal with it or stop playing competitive pokemon.

Hippopotas and Snover represent another issue that is at odds with the above quote. Many people (including some mods and other people of influence) have been against the inclusion of auto-weather because it will render unviable some of the strategies that were viable in UU solely because of the exclusion of weather. Well, I can't see either Hippo or Snover being broken in any sense of the word. I think a proper weather-based team could easily KO Hippo or Snover and reset the weather. With such ridiculously bad stats, I don't think you could justify BL status for them at all. But many people will be frustrated if they are included (although would people really use them? Perhaps I'm just naive), and you often hear that "people play UU to get away from OU."

BTW, it's not so much that people don't want to see bog standards; they don't want to see the same strategies used in OU. Bog standards can exist, but they'd better be UU bog standards!

 

[Lyfsaho]

This has been a very discussed topic, and I agree the best solution would probably go from the principle of allowing all NFE's in UU bar a shortlist of them which should be moved to BL.
As BL is not a metagame, having Kadabra and Alakazam in that same tier is of no consequence whatsoever disregarding the fact that Kadabra's usage will likely be 0.0001%.

Said BL shortlist is pretty well put together here.

List of NFEs that would be banned from UU.
These would be too strong for UU.

Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)
Dusclops (It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather)
Snover (auto-weather)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)
Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a lowish base attack (95) but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might break UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)

I agree fully with the list above - The most doubtful of them would perhaps even be Sneasel as it's significantly lower attack means it may prove less effective that it's OU counterpart. For those who are considering Rhydon because of x4 weaknesses, I invite them to face a Life Orb Rock Polish Rhydon in UU and see how they deal with it.

Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edge and Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it would counter Pinsir handily though.)

Gligar would no doubt make an excellent UU wall, but the lack of Sandstorm and the fact that it would counter some of the primary UU Sweepers (Pinsir, Scyther) which run amok in UU make me suggest potential testing before immediate banning.

 

[Murkrow]

Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)

Regardless of No Guard, I can't see Machoke being BL where the Hitmons, Toxicroak, Primeape, and potentially Poliwrath are in UU...

 

[Lyfsaho]

Hippopotas and Snover represent another issue that is at odds with the above quote. Many people (including some mods and other people of influence) have been against the inclusion of auto-weather because it will render unviable some of the strategies that were viable in UU solely because of the exclusion of weather. Well, I can't see either Hippo or Snover being broken in any sense of the word. I think a proper weather-based team could easily KO Hippo or Snover and reset the weather. With such ridiculously bad stats, I don't think you could justify BL status for them at all. But many people will be frustrated if they are included (although would people really use them? Perhaps I'm just naive), and you often hear that "people play UU to get away from OU."

I understand your point; however it is not why I personally would ban them from UU play. Let me elaborate.

Take the inclusion of Snover. Frosslass and Walrein are two current UU pokemon - the former because of it's sub-par special attack and the latter due to the fact that it's only viable set does not work in UU. Put Snover in UU, and said two pokemon would immediately obtain BL Status - and these are just two of the most obvious examples, although Choice Specs Glaceon's Blizzard should also get a mention.

Sandstorm in turn would mean that pokemon like Armaldo (good hp and physical defence, excellent attack) would get the special defensive boost and be incredibly hard to take down in UU - Bastiodon and Aggron would turn virtually invincible without a x4 se attack, Cacturne would get Sand Veil, Cradily would suddenly be a much for formidable foe, etc.

The most prevalent argument for not banning both of them, imo, is that you will essentially be involved in a 6 versus 5 battle right from the start of the battle, as their base stats are preposterously bad. Still, enough for unbanning them? meh.

 

[yoshi!]

But pinsir is already banned to BL and Scyther could possibly be banned as well. Where are those sweepers now?

 

[xcfrisco]

post of the year

Exactly! I don't see why UU hasn't been tested with the mindset of just allowing everything not OU and high BL. I don't like the immediate autoban of all those previously mentioned NFE's. All I see is a lot of theorymon with practically no hard evidence seeing as NFE's haven't really been integrated to the UU metagame ever.

Chansey (This is a sop thrown to the Blissey haters. If someone wants to argue for Chansey inclusion, by all means do so. Everyone will despise you.)

This is what I think is the real issue here. Its no so much that these pokemon (chansey, snover, hippopotas, etc) are broken, its just that people don't want to see them in a metagame they're trying to subjectively create. I get the sentiment that people are trying to make UU a metagame where the only rules are: to put in what people want and take away what people don't want. This shouldn't be the case. Tiers should be based on power and usage.

I would really like to see a UU metagame with the Snover and Hippopotas to see just how "broken" auto-weather" is.

 

[Murkrow]

But pinsir is already banned to BL and Scyther could possibly be banned as well. Where are those sweepers now?

I was going off of Obi's "suggestion for UU":

I recommend we get rid of the 50 member BL list or whatever it is and start with them all as UU. UU will likely be much larger at the end of finding balance and then NU could get larger to compensate. Then NU just might be actually interesting, instead of just being useless, uninspiring Pokemon like Unown and Delibird.

Frankly, I'm skeptical of passively submitting to that BL/UU thread in terms of deciding what's BL and what's not.

The most prevalent argument for not banning both of them, imo, is that you will essentially be involved in a 6 versus 5 battle right from the start of the battle, as their base stats are preposterously bad. Still, enough for unbanning them? meh.

"I understand your point" too. Thanks for explaining that. Tyranitar and Hippo have good "bodies" to their effects, though. If I change the weather, can Hippo/Snover switch in? If they switch in and die, I could just change the weather back again. I've seen some nice weather teams work in OU even in the presence of 3 strong weather changers, and like xcfrisco, I'd be interested in seeing exactly how pervasive Hippo/Snover usage get to be.

I get the sentiment that people are trying to make UU a metagame where the only rules are to put in are what people want and take away what people don't want. This shouldn't be the case. Tiers should be based on power and usage.

I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint, but I think too many people are set in their ways (I'm not implying what they think is wrong) to consider what you're saying, and you'll probably have to compromise with what those people "want." Though I do think it would great fun to do a tournament in which, like you said, ubers and OU are banned.

 

[xcfrisco]

I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint, but I think too many people are set in their ways (I'm not implying what they think is wrong) to consider what you're saying, and you'll probably have to compromise with what those people "want." Though I do think it would great fun to do a tournament in which, like you said, ubers and OU are banned.

lol, I think Obi has explicitly said many times that Smogon isn't a democracy at all. Were you around when Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E were intoduced into OU? You could've sworn it was World War 3 around here. And the majority opinions of those posting were to NOT allow these pokemon to come in cause people were "set in their ways"

Here we are now and the above pokemon are OU (and just barely in terms of usage). People need to learn that being "set in your ways" isn't the ideal arena for a competitive metagame.

 

[ODDish]

I don't see why UU hasn't been tested with the mindset of just allowing everything not OU and high BL. I don't like the immediate autoban of all those previously mentioned NFE's. All I see is a lot of theorymon with practically no hard evidence seeing as NFE's haven't really been integrated to the UU metagame ever.

Perhaps that would be because proper testing takes time, people to test and the inclination to do it ...

As I'm sure you're well aware the priority for most battlers here has been the testing and development of the OU metagame.

The number of players interested in developing UU is much lower ... and yes admittedly NFE's haven't been big on people's priority list, perhaps this is because shoddy useage statistics have indicated that NFE's see very little use. Therefore priorities have been given to those pokemon that actually see use.

I would really like to see a UU metagame with the Snover and Hippopotas to see just how "broken" auto-weather" is.

Then perhaps you would like to contribute to testing, perhaps by organizing a tournament or league or some such, perhaps Murkrow would like to offer to help you.

 

[obi]

Just some food for thought:

Many of the people who complain about how "the metagame is stale" are the same people trying to rush off to "stabilize the tiers" and are afraid of mixing things up.

 

[xcfrisco]

Then perhaps you would like to contribute to testing, perhaps by organizing a tournament or league or some such, perhaps Murkrow would like to offer to help you.

I would like to be able to play in a server where these pokemon aren't banned or immediately frowned upon so that EVERYONE can make an informed opinion if these pokemon are broken or not. Tournament and leagues only bring in a small amount of people relative to the entire community.

 

[ODDish]

I would like to be able to play in a server where these pokemon aren't banned or immediately frowned upon so that EVERYONE can make an informed opinion if these pokemon are broken or not. Tournament and leagues only bring in a small amount of people relative to the entire community.

Then perhaps as, you suggested to others earlier, you should ...

A.) make your own mod-server

However I would suggest that you consider that

a) not everyone is capable of making an informed decision
b) at present NFE's and UU are only interesting to a small amount of people relative to the community, so perhaps they shouldn't be dismissed so readily ...

 

[EconBiscuit]

OK, I think people don't understand what the term OU-lite means.

Ou-lite, is like Coke to Diet Coke, It has all the same elements that just doesn't pack a stronger punch. I have only recently started this metagame, and I think it is fresh to not have to face the same thing consistently with it's diverse range.

Using NFE's that are basically no different from their evolved forms are completly redundant in my opinion if they function in the exact same way (Using typical movesets/ev spreads) then use the evolved form.

The UU Metagame doesn't need all the influences of OU and all their pre-evoloutions. I know I am repeating myself but allowing those pokemon into UU just creates a metagame which can be played very close to the existing OU metagame (Only without Auto-weather).

I know I am making another comparison to coke, but it would be like taking Cherry Coke, in all its splendour into Diet Coke.

Like ODDish I feel that this will never be resolved, however I will never stop voicing my dismay about this topic.

Any arguement for allowing NFE's into UU but stating that the current UU Pokemon perform better at functions those pokemon are created for is redundant as why add them in the first place. What happens when NU is created do all the 1st evoloutions automatically get placed into NU aswell?

However I do believe that Obi's idea of merging BL/UU and then banning pokemon back to BL who overcentralizes the Metagame.

and here is some thought I was having after all this

Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power)

would be allowed only to be placed in BL with it's evolved form? I wonder what Pokemon people will use then eh?

 

[Bliksem]

The UU Metagame doesn't need all the influences of OU and all their pre-evoloutions. I know I am repeating myself but allowing those pokemon into UU just creates a metagame which can be played very close to the existing OU metagame (Only without Auto-weather).

This reminds me of another topic where people would make a claim but would not expand on it. How would the inclusion of NFE'd Pokemon make it play like OU when a good deal of the elements in OU are missing. There's no Zapdos or Crescelia or Heatran in UU. There's no Skarmory or Heracross. The strategies to beat or complement these Pokemon are missing, replaced by new strategies to beat or complement Pokemon that are lesser seen. Magnezone can trap Skarmory and OHKO it with Thunderbolt. What can Magneton do to Bastidon or Steelix? It doesn't work the same.

The only way people are going to play UU like OU is if similar situations exist, which they don't. UU is a totally different environment and the NFE will have to adapt to that environment. Someone earlier posted the team of Gligar, Chansey, Dusclops, Cloyster, Magneton, Pinsir as an OU-lite team, and ignoring the weaknesses of the team, let's look at what it actually accomplishes. Not too much, from what I see. A bunch of walls, one revenge killer and a sweeper. I doubt it would do much to change the UU environment.

 

[Murkrow]

Someone earlier posted the team of Gligar, Chansey, Dusclops, Cloyster, Magneton, Pinsir as an OU-lite team, and ignoring the weaknesses of the team, let's look at what it actually accomplishes. Not too much, from what I see. A bunch of walls, one revenge killer and a sweeper. I doubt it would do much to change the UU environment.

Hey! Give me a break here. I was just saying that people didn't want to see the viable "mini-me's" of OU. I never said that team was GOOD.

 

[GoldDraconian]

I was referring to Nokocchi and others' "let them all in" attitude. As a habitual player of the UU format, i don't want to see it ruined so.

Common sense indicates that even if they're initially allowed (as a test, for example), if they come in and are overpowered, they'll get banned to BL. I agree that Chansey and Kadabra would be pretty fruity in UU.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here since you answered your own question; all of the pokemon mentioned qualify.

Okay, you got me. I hope I meant to say something a little different (read: more clever) there and just forgot what I was doing somewhere along the way. Still, in my defense, it looks to me that the evolved forms of the mans I mentioned are much stronger in their tiers than their unevolved forms would be in UU. If that's not the case, and they are too good, then they can easily be banned to BL. The argument in favor of allowing NFEs is weakened if we pretend nothing will be moved to BL to get it out of the UU metagame, but I think it's safe to assume they will be handled that way.

 

[Fenikkusu]

There's a fairly limited number of NFEs that are good enough to comprise perhaps a similarity to an OU team, chansey and dusclops being the premier ones that come to mind offhand. I would like to propose the novel idea that Kadabra in UU (barring being actually overpowered) would not create OU-lite. simply because Alakazam sees next to no play in OU in the first place.


The majority of NFEs simply aren't good enough to compete with the higher end UUs and definitely not after the BL mixup, so including them doesn't actually create OU-lite, because if you attempt to play an "OU" team using Gabite, Chansey, Gligar, whatever, you'll likely get stomped by [formerly] BL pokes or the higher end UU pokes that are simply more powerful overall.

 

[eric the espeon]

Updated the list with suggestions:

List of NFEs that would be initially banned from UU, but would be tested later.
These would probably be too strong for UU.

Chansey (It is almost the same defensive power as Blissey, one of the top OUs, really not good for UU. )
Dusclops (great defenses, could stall extremely well in UU. It wasn’t even UU last generation and now has Will-O-Wisp.)
Haunter (Gengar 0.5, it lacks Focus Punch. However, it is still almost as diverse as its evolution, and its stats are nearly as high.)
Hippopotas (auto-weather, may be tested once the others settle in)
Snover (auto-weather, may be tested once the others settle in)
Kadabra (Diverse movepool and high power (120 Sp. attack) alomost as strong as Alakazam, but with no Blissey to wall it.)



List of NFEs with Questionable Metagame Influence
It is harder to determine whether the following would break the UU metagame. The question of whether to send the following to Borderline or allow them in UU may be debated. They would be allowed but may be banned after testing.

Magneton (Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise may slay Aggron and possibly other steels, however it has low defenses and not excellent Sp. attack.)
Sneasel (Sneasel has a lowish base attack (95) but it possesses the movepool of its evolution. With Swords Dance it still might be too strong for UU)
Rhydon (It has a higher ATK and sp def tier than Aggron but lower on the def tier. Both have glaring 4x weaknesses. The high Attack may see it banned.)
Gligar (Gligar has improved substantially since last generation, gaining a good recovery move and stuff like Stone Edge and Night Slash. However, it lacks the elemental fangs of its evolution. If included, it may give reason to unban Pinsir and/or Syther.)
Machoke (100 Base attack Dynamicpunch is strong, but 45 base speed (max +Nature Scarf is 310) and low defenses are not so good.)

Please suggest changes to this list.

Possible changes:
Kadabra > QMI
Machoke Remove from QMI
Sneasel Remove from QMI


For reference this is the old NFEs Pokemon in UU thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259