Charmander (LC DD SubLeichi)

[Banryu]

-EDIT- Now putting Dragon Dance (Sub-Liechi) and Belly Drum sets up for review.

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance (Sub-Liechi
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Substitute
item: Liechi Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Jolly
evs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
• Not completely outclassed as a Dragon Dancer due to his ability to beat Bronzor outright, which other DDers cannot do
• caps out at 28 Attack and 25 Speed after DD + Liechi, compared to Adamant DD + 3 Attacks Charmander's 22 Attack and 24 Speed
• Fire Punch + Dragon Claw obtain perfect neutral coverage in LC
• Very vulnerable to being revenge-killed

Currently, there are two sets approved in the Charmander analaysis... this was one of them, but I started to become skeptical about its degree of usefulness after considering how ineffective Sub + boosting berry tends to be in LC.

 

[Towelie]

I can see that it has rock slide to beat other fire types, but growlithe has intimidate as well as reversal which hits shit like houndour and munchlax. Growlithe has much higher attacking power on both ends, as well as flare blitz to hit like a truck. all in all, i don't think that just because of rock slide, charmander isn't outclassed by ponyta or growlithe.

 

[Banryu]

The difference is basically just that Charmander can beat its counters, which Growlith cannot always do; Ponyta (if not Intimidated) and most Water-types can switch in and check or beat the current Scarf Growlithe set, whereas Charmander can beat both its Water-type counters and Flash Fire switchins (Rock Slide beats Ponyta as well as Houndour, Reversal only gets Houndour), plus Mantyke, who laughs at everything Growlithe can do.

Although apart from that, yes, Charmander is a bit lackluster in the offensive department. :0 Just the main point is that it can beat its resistant switchins, most notably Mantyke, who all the other Fire scarfers fear. If that doesn't merit it enough for its own set, fine, but the fact that it can seems pretty noteworthy to me.

 

[Towelie]

If a team really has trouble with Mantyke growlithe can easily throw hp electric on. prediction isnt really that hard in lc.

 

[Banryu]

I know it isn't and I know you can, but then-- in this specific instance-- you lose to Chinchou (well, which you do anyway).

Look, I don't really want to argue with you about this, I made my point already. I'll wait for some other feedback to see if this is good enough to go up, but based on what you're telling me, I'll continue to stand by the set for now.

 

[kd24]

i'm not really sold on this set yet, we have a lot of scarf fire-types and i think all of them have a better case for use than this charmander. im going to playtest it out, see how it goes though before i make any negative comments.

 

[Heysup]

As I mentioned in the thread, which you need to finish, this set is really ineffective at beating the few Pokemon that it hits super effectively with Rock Slide. For example, Mantyke isn't even 2HKOed when you include Oran Berry, meaning your opponent would literally have to mispredict 3 times in order for you to remove Charmander, and by then you're at 25% HP because of Stealth Rock.

Anything else you're against gets beaten by Cyndaquil with Double Kick / Reversal or Magby with Cross Chop / Brick Break (if its physical). Growlithe has Intimidate and a specialized specialized moveset to beat Dragon Dancers. This set has really nothing going for it. Gets a no from me.

EDIT: Go ahead, I'll change the title for you when you post them.

 

[Banryu]

Yeah, I do need to finish that... :0 And I totally forgot about Oran on Mantyke, you're right.... totally disproves my point, hmm... alright, I guess it's no good then. :0


-EDIT- Let's leave this open for now, I'm gonna edit some other Charmander sets that I'm a little iffy about into the OP before closing up shop completely.

-EDIT AGAIN- Alright, I can't seem to change the thread title, but this is now the QC thread for DD Sub-Liechi Charmander, I guess... >.>

Also, can someone give me a list of things that Charmander wants / needs to OHKO? I'm trying to do some damage calcs for the regular DD set to see whether it needs to be Adamant or Jolly and whether it needs Life Orb to kill stuff.

 

[Heysup]

I like this set, it creates a win condition and can set up on weaker defensive Pokemon and Scarfers. I'd prefer an Adamant nature though, and Return / Brick Break over Dragon Claw.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I don't like the fact that it is walled by Munchlax. +1 Dragon Claw does 36.7% - 46.7% to the least defensive Munchlax you'll see (0 HP / 36 Def). Frankly, I'd rather use the setup opportunity to sweep with something like Dratini, while Mantyke/Chinchou are easier to set up, less vulnerable to priority and equally threatening provided similar pokes have been removed.

 

[Heysup]

Well Fire Punch does (53.33% - 70.00%) with Adamant, Brick Break OHKOes 100% of the time, and Return does a very hefty amount as well. If you consider my slashes then I think this may look better. Munchlax isn't hard to lure and weaken in the first place.