Chansey (BW2 Revamp - QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

ShootingStarmie

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[Overview]

[Overview]

While Chansey was outclassed by Blissey in every way possible in previous generations, Eviolite now sets the two apart. Factoring in Eviolite, Chansey is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the entire game. Sadly, even with the boost from Eviolite, she still can't stand up to the popular Fighting-type attackers in OU. Because of Chansey's immense bulk, she often finds herself on stall-based teams because of her incredible support movepool. She's one of the few viable clerics outside of Blissey, but is much bulkier. Because of the lack of Leftovers recovery, Chansey should mainly be used on rain or sun teams, as the recoil from hail and sand really deteriorates Chansey's incredible bulk. Chansey also has to rely on Seismic Toss and Toxic to threaten the opponent thanks to her low attacking stats. However, play to Chansey's strengths and you won't be disappointed.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Softboiled / Wish
move 2: Aromatherapy / Protect
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Seismic Toss
item: Eviolite
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

<p>Chansey is a great option if your team is in need of a cleric or Wish passer. This is mainly due to Chansey's incredible bulk, allowing her to tank nearly any special attack, and a lot of unboosted physical attacks. This set is often compared to Blissey, who is less bulky but has the advantage of being viable on sand and hail stall teams as well as a usable Special Attack stat. However, on rain and sun stall teams, Chansey is the better choice thanks to her superior bulk.</p>

<p>Softboiled keeps Chansey healthy throughout the match, as without Leftovers recovery, Chansey gets worn down pretty easily by residual damage in the form of entry hazards, sand, hail, and repeated attacks. Aromatherapy allows Chansey to heal her teammates and prevents Chansey from being Toxic stalled, allowing Chansey to further support the team. Aromatherapy should be used in conjunction with Softboiled. However, Chansey is also a very viable Wish passer thanks to her incredible HP stat. Protect should be used instead of Aromatherapy if you plan to use Wish with Chansey, as it allows Chansey to heal herself and scout out the opponent. Wish allows Chansey to fully heal many Pokemon regardless of whether they invest in HP themselves thanks to Chansey's incredible HP stat. Toxic allows Chansey to wear down the opponent, and is Chansey's main way of damaging the opponent. Seismic Toss prevents Chansey from becoming complete setup bait by sweepers (especially most Substitute users trying to avoid Toxic), and allows her to reliably damage the opposition without worrying about her low offenses.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs have been heavily invested in both HP and physical defense, making Chansey one of the best mixed walls in the tier. Investing into physical defense also means that Alakazam and Latios have no chance in getting past Chansey with Psyshock, as well as always avoiding the 2HKO from Hydreigon's Superpower. Wish can be paired with Softboiled to reduce Chansey's dependence on receiving her own Wish, but Protect is generally better, as it allows you to scout your opponent and Toxic stall. Thunder Wave is an option to better deal with fast sweepers such as Venusaur while also statusing Fighting-types such as Lucario and Terrakion on the switch. Chansey can also use Stealth Rock, as Chansey forces a lot of switches pretty nicely. Stealth Rock also allows you to stall out Gengar, which can often be troubling for Chansey.</p>

<p>Chansey functions well on stall and other defensive teams that appreciate Chansey's ability to heal her teammates from status. Politoed is a great partner, as Politoed prevents sand and hail damage from wearing down Chansey, while Chansey heals Politoed of any kind of status. Latias also has great synergy with Chansey, as it takes on Fighting-type attackers such as Breloom and Keldeo, both of which can easily muscle through Chansey. Pairing Skarmory up with Chansey creates a very neat core, though this core has become less effective this generation thanks to mixed attackers such as Keldeo, Infernape, Hydreigon, and Kyurem-B. Dragonite is a very viable tank on rain teams, as with Multiscale and Dragon Tail it can wall just about any special attacker that Chansey can't, such as Reuniclus, Keldeo, and Jirachi. Bulky Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Ferrothorn are great partners for Chansey, mainly because they can easily switch into physical attacks, set up entry hazards, and force switches with Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, respectively. Be careful when using both Ferrothorn and Chansey together, as they do share a Fighting-type weakness.</p>

<p>Chansey also functions really well on sun stall teams. Ninetales really likes Chansey's ability to switch into rain-boosted attacks easily, while also keeping Ninetales free from status. Slowbro is a pretty good partner, as the two have good synergy together. Be careful however, as using both Slowbro and Chansey can make you very weak to Breloom. Cresselia is a sturdy wall on sun teams and has nice synergy with Chansey, but their roles often overlap with each other, meaning there can be some redundancy. Donphan and Forretress are two spinners that fit very nicely on sun teams. Donphan has its Water weakness reduced and checks physical attacks pretty nicely, while Forretress can tank just about any physical attacker while also providing support in the form of entry hazards and Rapid Spin. Sableye is the best option for a spinblocker on sun teams, and shares excellent synergy with Chansey. Sableye is also one of the best counters to Reuniclus, a Pokemon that often gives Chansey a headache, while it can also burn physical attackers, taking pressure off of Chansey.</p>

<p>Entry hazards are annoying for Chansey to switch into, so having a spinner is important. Donphan, Tentacruel, and Forretress can both Rapid Spin and appreciate Chansey's huge Wishes and her ability to come in on special attacks. They also can set up entry hazards, wearing down the opposing team. Finally, Landorus-T is one of the best switch-ins to Terrakion and Scizor, two Pokemon that often use Chansey as setup bait.</p>

<p>The main advantages of using Chansey over Blissey are that Chansey has much better overall bulk and can actually take quite a few physical attacks. Blissey, however, has Leftovers, making her a much better choice on sand hail teams, as the recoil from sand and hail really undermines Chansey's bulk. This means Chansey is more viable on sun and rain teams, meaning Ninetales and Politoed are the best partners for Chansey.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Counter is a pretty cool option, as thanks to Chansey's incredible HP stat and low Defense stat, Counter will often net a KO on physical attackers. Light Screen is an okay option, as it allows other teammates to easily tank special attacks, but this role is often better filled by Cresselia and Bronzong. Skill Swap can be used to stop Reuniclus from destroying your team. Psych Up has some value in that it can go through Substitutes and thus steals defensive boosts such as a Quiver Dance or a Calm Mind boost from a Jirachi, Reuniclus, or Celebi, but it has little use outside of that. Chansey has some gimmicky options in Sing and Charm, but she has better things to do.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>The large list of Fighting-types in OU are the best way to keep Chansey in check; Terrakion, Breloom, Keldeo, Infernape, Conkeldurr, and Lucario are all Pokemon that can switch in pretty easily and force Chansey out. However, some of these must be wary of Thunder Wave on the switch. Conkeldurr is probably the most consistent Fighting-type switch-in, as it doesn't care about Toxic or Thunder Wave. Any strong physical attacker with high-powered STAB attacks or Fighting-type coverage can usually muscle past Chansey. Strong Ground- and Dragon-types such as Garchomp, Choice Band Dragonite, and Double Dance Landorus-T can easily get past Chansey or force it out.</p>

<p>Calm Mind Reuniclus gives Chansey hell thanks to Magic Guard and Recover, and can easily get past Chansey with Psyshock. Stallbreakers such as Gliscor, Reuniclus, and Gengar easily force Chansey to switch. Gliscor is immune to status thanks to Poison Heal and can Taunt Chansey due to its higher base Speed. Reuniclus has Magic Guard and can use Chansey as setup bait. Gengar is immune to Toxic and Seismic Toss and can use Chansey's own health to its advantage via Pain Split and can also carry Taunt. Gothitelle is scary for Chansey to face, as it can easily Trick a Choice item onto Chansey, as Shadow Tag prevents switching. Once locked into a move, it can be KOed or used as setup bait the following turn. Magic Bounce users such as Xatu and Espeon can easily bounce back status inducing moves and Stealth Rock. Finally, Trick users such as Latios and Rotom-W cripple Chansey by replacing her beloved Eviolite with a handicap.</p>
 
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Jukain

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ac twave, make main spread 120 hp / 252 def / 136 sdef bold/calm.

elaborating on the teammates in the skeleton is redundant i guess, just please narrow it down to the ones that are really useful. if i see 'chansey dislikes hazards, use forry/tenta/starmie' i'm not gonna be happy.

please mention cresselia which is a staple with chansey on sun stall and takes fighting attacks really well. slowbro is worth a mention in a similar vein.

make softboiled / wish | aromatherapy / protect the move order for the first two slots. and make SURE to mention that it's like the only viable cleric outside blissey and certain rare other things.

set comments needs to mention move combos: softboiled + wish, wish + protect, softboiled + aromatherapy.

can the mention of weatherless in the overview, weatherless stall is a joke. if you're not using chansey on stall you're doing it wrong.

mention that it's a staple rain/sand stall mon.

oo skill swap to neuter cm reun.

qc 1/3
 

ShootingStarmie

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ac twave, make main spread 120 hp / 252 def / 136 sdef bold/calm.

elaborating on the teammates in the skeleton is redundant i guess, just please narrow it down to the ones that are really useful. if i see 'chansey dislikes hazards, use forry/tenta/starmie' i'm not gonna be happy.

please mention cresselia which is a staple with chansey on sun stall and takes fighting attacks really well. slowbro is worth a mention in a similar vein.

make softboiled / wish | aromatherapy / protect the move order for the first two slots. and make SURE to mention that it's like the only viable cleric outside blissey and certain rare other things.

set comments needs to mention move combos: softboiled + wish, wish + protect, softboiled + aromatherapy.

can the mention of weatherless in the overview, weatherless stall is a joke. if you're not using chansey on stall you're doing it wrong.

mention that it's a staple rain/sand stall mon.

oo skill swap to neuter cm reun.

qc 1/3
Mentioned Twave in AC, and changes the EV spread - Check

Mentioned Cress & Slowbro - Check

Changed the move order - Check

Mentioned combos - Check

Removed weatherless stall - Check

I don't want to mention that it's a staple on rain / sand stall teams, mainly because I don't think it's true. Sand's recoil is too much for Chansey and I've had plenty of success without using Chansey on a rain stall team. If this gets support however, I'm willing to make the changes.

Mentioned Skill Swap in OO - Check
 
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ShootingStarmie

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Thanks for your comments Icecream. Yeah, I think he might have meant Sun / Rain too, but I had to make that clear just in case.

As for the staple Chansey comment thing, I kinda worded it funny. What I meant was that you don't NEED to run Chansey if you're using rain stall. I know it sounds like I've used Chansey outside of Rain / Sun stall, but I actually meant I've had success with Rain stall without the use of Chansey, hence why I don't think it's a staple. Sorry if that came off a bit confusing.

I've removed "Don't use Chansey on sand / hail stall".

I've changed the SR description.

Sing is listed because it was previously listed for Blissey, so it sounds acceptable for Chansey too. I don't care too much if this gets removed, but I'll leave it in there for now and see what others have to say.

Thanks for the comments man, really appreciated.
 
  • Has competition from Blissey, Jirachi, and Celebi
serves a different role from jirachi / celebi @_@
  • Has to rely on Seismic Toss to deal any damage
toxic??
  • Thunder Wave can be used to cripple Volc and Venusaur and hit Terrakion on switch.
i don't like the volc mention since toxic is better agains it; terrakion on the switch is rather vague since it's moreso any fighting type
  • Team mates include Forretress, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Starmie, Politoed, Skarmory, Celebi, Amoonguss, and Slowbro.
why????? not just "because stall"
  • Functions well on stall teams.
that's a "well duh" statement

qc approved 2/3 and before u write can jukain explain the evs
 

Jukain

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oh woops i thought i suggested 4/252/252...

woops, my brain switched chansey and blissey. just run 4/252/252 bold/calm, you maximize your eviolite-boosted defenses. bold is if you wanna take physical hits better, calm is for super boosted special stuff and to take hits better after hazards/possible sand damage/etc.
 

ShootingStarmie

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What's 4/252/252? 4 HP?

Edit: Don't worry Jukain, I'm just doing my own EVs for now. If anyone from QC objects, I'm willing to change.
 
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Jukain

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ok let me explain:

252 hp/252 def/4 sdef bold does not make the most of your eviolite-boosted defenses. statistically, higher defenses maximize the boost you get from eviolite. that is why 4 hp / 252 def / 252 sdef is better. ac your spread, but just with calm, to be used to pass bigger wishes if you want. you're bulkier with this spread though.
 

Jukain

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alright now then...

i don't like your ac. it's too long and even repetitive.

but first let's go over the whole thing.

overview:

i think you exaggerate how much bulkier chansey is than blissey. it really isn't that much, it's just a slight advantage, at least specially. physically it is the superior, and thus it is superior on rain and sun stall teams.

emphasize how the prominence of fighting-types is detrimental to it.

set comments:

this is littered with blissey mentions over chansey, get them out.

you don't even talk about chansey's special bulk.

additional comments:

twave is ac, not slashed

ok let's condense -

first off, chansey functions well on rain and sun stall teams. let's get that out of the way. rain stall typically has a tentacruel. sun stall typically has a forretress or a donphan. that is where you get your spin support -- these teams carry spinners. otherwise, i wouldn't call spin support 'necessary'. latias, cressy, tangrowth, slowbro, sableye are sun stall mons that help take fighting attacks. skarm is common on rain stall, as are nite and ferro, and i guess latias. that's p much the split of what you use to support chansey. talk about those in two paragraphs about sun stall and rain stall. the rest of what you have is redundant and should go.

oo is fine

c&c:

note that rachi can't really beat chansey without psyshock. scarf runs healing wish nowadays for the most part, too.

kyurem-b is really crippled by toxic. honestly, chansey can handle most mixed sets, especially specially-based sub.
 

alexwolf

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Jukain is wrong. 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD has ~9% more physical bulk and ~9% less physical bulk than 4 HP / 252 Def+ / 252 SpD, so neither spread is more efficient inherently, it all depends to what you want to handle better. I think we are going to need specific calcs to determine which spread should be the main one. For example, Chansey is one of the few counters to mixed Hydreigon, but needs 252 HP / 252 Def+ to counter it, as with only 4 HP it gets 2HKOed after SR more than 50% of the time (57.42% of the time to be exact).
 

ShootingStarmie

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alright now then...

i don't like your ac. it's too long and even repetitive.

but first let's go over the whole thing.

overview:

i think you exaggerate how much bulkier chansey is than blissey. it really isn't that much, it's just a slight advantage, at least specially. physically it is the superior, and thus it is superior on rain and sun stall teams.
Well, it's the only trait it has over Blissey, hence why I went into detail with it. I guess I'll edit it if it's that bad.

emphasize how the prominence of fighting-types is detrimental to it.
done

this is littered with blissey mentions over chansey, get them out.
fixed

you don't even talk about chansey's special bulk.
"This is mainly due to Chansey's incredible bulk, allowing her to tank nearly any special attack"

Although this isn't a huge mention, I did somewhat mention it. However, I understand it wasn't mentioned a ton, so I'll try to mention it more.


twave is ac, not slashed
fixed

ok let's condense -

first off, chansey functions well on rain and sun stall teams. let's get that out of the way. rain stall typically has a tentacruel. sun stall typically has a forretress or a donphan. that is where you get your spin support -- these teams carry spinners. otherwise, i wouldn't call spin support 'necessary'. latias, cressy, tangrowth, slowbro, sableye are sun stall mons that help take fighting attacks. skarm is common on rain stall, as are nite and ferro, and i guess latias. that's p much the split of what you use to support chansey. talk about those in two paragraphs about sun stall and rain stall. the rest of what you have is redundant and should go.
Due to no Leftovers, I'd say spin support is necessary, because it's so easily worn down, forcing you to use Softboiled and lose momentum. This can be prevent with spin support, but I'm willing to change this if other QC members fill strongly about this. I've removed the paragraph dedicated to rapid spin support, you're right about condensing.


c&c:

note that rachi can't really beat chansey without psyshock. scarf runs healing wish nowadays for the most part, too.

kyurem-b is really crippled by toxic. honestly, chansey can handle most mixed sets, especially specially-based sub.
I've removed Jirachi and Kyurem-B.

Thanks for the overall check
 

ShootingStarmie

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Jukain is wrong. 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD has ~9% more physical bulk and ~9% less physical bulk than 4 HP / 252 Def+ / 252 SpD, so neither spread is more efficient inherently, it all depends to what you want to handle better. I think we are going to need specific calcs to determine which spread should be the main one. For example, Chansey is one of the few counters to mixed Hydreigon, but needs 252 HP / 252 Def+ to counter it, as with only 4 HP it gets 2HKOed after SR more than 50% of the time (57.42% of the time to be exact).
I think not being able to counter Hydreigon is pretty huge. I haven't seen other calcs so far, but I'm leaning more towards 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD mainly for this reason alone.
 
Just chiming in to say while 252 HP vs 248 HP is usually trivial, a stall Pokemon like Chansey without Leftovers really really benefits from having 248. If you ran max HP, it puts you at a multiple of 16, which maximizes passive damage, and since you don't have Leftovers, there's no benefit. While I guess it's not common, at 248 HP, a Chansey's wish still heals enough to give Forretress its Sturdy back from 1 HP if it runs 244 HP - running any lower on either would make you sacrifice a point of Leftovers healing on Forretress. Small example, but my point is it's not really deterimental to drop your Wish/Softboiled healing by 1 point in exchange for minimizing passive damage, at least in my opinion.
 
While it's true that 4/252/252 works well in maximizing overall bulk due to Chansey's high HP stat (NOT because of the Eviolite), picking EVs for something like Chansey needs to be less about raw numbers and more about countering what Chansey needs to counter. For instance, as was mentioned earlier, 4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon has a good shot at 2HKOing 4/252+ Chansey with Superpower after Stealth Rock while 252/252+ Chansey always survives. In addition, Latios 2HKOs 4/252+ Chansey with Specs Psyshock after Stealth Rock ~59% of the time, whereas it wouldn't have a chance of 2HKOing a 252/252+ Chansey. These are the sorts of things we need to look at when deciding the EV spread. If there are some special attacks that Chansey needs the extra bulk to take on, we can account for those as well. For example, although it isn't the most common set in the world, Modest Specs Heatran always 2HKOs 252/252+/4 Chansey with Fire Blast in Sun after Stealth Rock. 4/252/252 Chansey with a Bold nature can usually avoid that 2HKO, and it always avoids it with a Calm nature.

Also, I'm wondering if we're overplaying the importance of using Chansey on a Sun or Rain team here. Keep in mind that while Chansey is losing 1/16 of its HP every turn to Sand or Hail, Blissey will also lose its Leftovers recovery, and so both Pokemon are losing 1/16 of the HP that they would have if not for the weather damage. To give an example, lets say 252/252+ versions of each pink blob have to take max damage from CB Scizor's U-turn. Blissey is taking 56.44% while Chansey is taking 41.9%. In Rain, after each has spammed Protect (more Leftovers recovery for Blissey), Blissey will have about 56.06% of its HP left while Chansey will have 58.1%. Chansey comes out a little better on remaining HP and, due to the Eviolite, will take the next hit better. Now let's look at the same attack in Sand where Blissey's Leftovers are negated and Chansey is taking passive damage. Blissey now has about 43.56% of its HP left and Chansey has about 45.6%. Chansey still came out better than Blissey, even in Sand.

Now, when dealing with some lower damage attacks, Blissey's Leftovers recovery + Protect will leave it with higher HP percentages than Chansey. However, this occurs regardless of the weather. For instance, let's examine the same scenario with Specs Latios's Draco Meteor instead. This attack maxes out at 36.64% against a 252/4 Chansey and 43.69% against a 252/4 Blissey. In Rain with a turn of Protect, Blissey will have 68.81% of its HP left while Chansey will have 63.36%. Blissey will have the higher percentage at the end of the turn while Chansey has the naturally better bulk, so it sort of evens out, but I digress. Now let's compare these two in Sand, where again Chansey will take damage and Blissey's recovery will be negated. Blissey will have 56.31% left while Chansey will have 50.86%. Again, Blissey has a percentage advantage to rival Chansey's bulk advantage, but both Pokemon have lower HP than they would have otherwise.

Am I missing something here, or is this whole deal about "Use Blissey in Sand/Hail and Chansey in Sun/Rain" really overblown?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to say that Sand and Hail aren't detrimental to Chansey's health (they are), just that they are also detrimental to Blissey's health as well, and Chansey's superior bulk makes up for what it lack in Leftovers recovery when compared to its older sibling. That said, the AC mention of Politoed and Ninetales that you have now is perfect for addressing the general problem of damaging weather, a problem shared by all Eviolite users. However, I just don't think the Overview should make a big deal about Sun and Rain as it makes it sound as if the weather is a primary reason why you should use Chansey over its competition (in this case, Blissey). Personally, if I were running a Sand or Hail stall team and needed one of the pink blobs, I would (and have before) still run Chansey over Blissey due to its far superior bulk, which will generally outweighs the lack of Leftovers in or out of Sand or Hail.
 
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ginganinja

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Also, I'm wondering if we're overplaying the importance of using Chansey on a Sun or Rain team here. Keep in mind that while Chansey is losing 1/16 of its HP every turn to Sand or Hail, Blissey will also lose its Leftovers recovery, and so both Pokemon are losing 1/16 of the HP that they would have if not for the weather damage.
The 6% per turn really adds up in my experience. I don't care about percentages etc, I just know that Chansey in Sandstorm is worse than Blissey in sandstorm, simply because the residual stacks up. Technically, there is no rule preventing you from running Chansey in Sand, but (in my experience), your not as good sooo
 

ShootingStarmie

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Okay, I talked to shrang and Accidental Greed on IRC, and they said I could change the EVs for now. It's still up for discussion however, so if anyone feels strongly about the EVs, they can still be changed. Other than that, I think that's the last update, this thing is ready to get it's last QC check.
 
Veteran Chansey user here

On the ev spread, from what I have calced 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SpD Bold is more efficient than 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Calm, its only like 1% more efficient on both sides, I guess that's not too important, but I just wanted to mention it. I have always preferred more special defense: 180 HP / 252 Def / 76 SpD Calm which if I remember correctly makes sure Latios can't 2HKO with Psyshock, but that might just be my preference.

My real beef here is Stealth Rock in OO! Chansey is a great Stealth Rock user IMO it is easily on par with Aromatherapy in supporting a team, sure in theory something else can run it, but in practice Chansey often needs to run it, and when it does, its perfectly fine.
 

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