CAP Revision - Syclant: Part 3: Non-Competitive Movepool Discussion/Submission

[eric the espeon]

Previous thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47769

Our new stat spread for Syclant is:
70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 65 / 115

And the following moves will be removed:
Focus Blast
Stone Edge
Superpower

Our next task is to sort out the non-competitive (or flavour) side of Syclant's movepool.

This is how its stands right now:

[B]Movepool[/B]:
 
[B]Level[/B]:
- Thunder Fang
- Fire Fang
- Leech life
- Leer
- Ice Shard
10 Focus Energy
15 Knock Off
17 Slash
20 Bite
28 Icy Wind
32 X-Scissor
40 Night Slash
49 Ice Punch
55 Bug Buzz
65 Sheer Cold
 
[B]TMs/HMs[/B]:
TM03: Water Pulse
TM06: Toxic
TM07: Hail
TM10: Hidden Power
TM12: Taunt
TM13: Ice Beam
TM14: Blizzard
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM16: Light Screen
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM28: Dig
TM31: Brick Break
TM32: Double Team
TM33: Reflect
TM39: Rock Tomb
TM40: Aerial Ace
TM41: Torment
TM42: Facade
TM43: Secret Power
TM44: Attract
TM45: Rest
TM46: Thief
TM47: Steel Wing
TM51: Roost
TM52: Focus Blast
TM54: False Swipe
TM56: Fling
TM58: Endure
TM60: Drain Punch
TM62: Silver Wind
TM63: Embargo
TM65: Shadow Claw
TM66: Payback
TM68: Giga Impact
TM70: Flash
TM71: Stone Edge
TM72: Avalanche
TM75: Swords Dance
TM78: Captivate
TM80: Rock Slide
TM81: X-Scissor
TM82: Sleep Talk
TM83: Natural Gift
TM84: Poison Jab
TM87: Swagger
TM89: U-Turn
TM90: Substitute
TM91: Flash Cannon
HM01: Cut
HM03: Fly (for those bitching that this doesn't fly, explain Doduo) [I]yes this is really from the stratergy dex... lol.[/I]
HM04: Strength
HM06: Rock Smash
 
[B]Egg Moves ([COLOR=olive]Bug Group[/COLOR])[/B]:
 
- Earth Power (Trapinch)
- Superpower (Pinsir)
- Spikes (Forretress)
- Counter (Forretress)
- Air Slash (Scyther, Scizor)
- Crunch (Skorupi, Drapion, Trapinch)
- Tail Glow (Volbeat)

If you wish to submit a revised movepool you must follow these rules:

1. You must follow the Guide on how to create a movepool.
2. You may not remove any move that is competitive on Syclant (other than Focus Blast, Stone Edge and Superpower which must be removed), this will be judged by me and TAY.
3. You must not add any competitive move to Syclant, again this will be judged by me and TAY.
4. Please provide a list of moves that you have removed and those that you have added so it is easy to see your changes without going back and forth comparing your moveset to the original.
5. I have discussed it with Doug and you are allowed to add in Platinum Tutors to your submitted movepool but you are not required to.

For convenience here is a full list of Pt tutor moves:
Air Cutter, Dive, Fire Punch, Fury Cutter, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Knock Off, Ominous Wind, Sucker Punch, Trick, ThunderPunch, Vaccuum Wave, Zen Headbutt, Helping Hand, Last Resort, Magnet Rise, Snore, Spite, Swift, Synthesis, Uproar, AncientPower, Aqua Tail, Bounce, Earth Power, Endeavor, Gastro Acid, Gunk Shot, Heat Wave, Iron Defense, Iron Head, Mud Slap, Outrage, Rollout, Signal Beam, Seed Bomb, Superpower, Twister

Also please comment on each others movepools.
It will be much better to co-operate on a few and get high quality carefully crafted movepools than to each make one and have a load of ones that only one person's thoughts went into.
But if you don't think any of the current movepools are close to what you like please go ahead and make one.

If you want to know if a specific move is considered competitive please ask.

And this will finnish in 2-3 days depending on discussion and when me and TAY are available.

--------
Please tell me if I made any mistakes in this, with the size of its its quite probable.

 

[tennisace]

[B]Movepool[/B]:
 
[B]Level[/B]:
01 Pound
03 Leer
07 Ice Shard
10 Focus Energy
15 Knock Off
17 Slash
20 Bite
28 Icy Wind
32 X-Scissor
40 Night Slash
49 Ice Punch
55 Bug Buzz
65 Sheer Cold
 
[B]TMs/HMs[/B]:
TM03: Water Pulse
TM06: Toxic
TM07: Hail
TM10: Hidden Power
TM12: Taunt
TM13: Ice Beam
TM14: Blizzard
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM31: Brick Break
TM32: Double Team
TM40: Aerial Ace
TM41: Torment
TM42: Facade
TM43: Secret Power
TM44: Attract
TM45: Rest
TM46: Thief
TM47: Steel Wing
TM54: False Swipe
TM56: Fling
TM58: Endure
TM60: Drain Punch
TM62: Silver Wind
TM63: Embargo
TM65: Shadow Claw
TM66: Payback
TM68: Giga Impact
TM72: Avalanche
TM75: Swords Dance
TM78: Captivate
TM81: X-Scissor
TM82: Sleep Talk
TM83: Natural Gift
TM84: Poison Jab
TM89: U-Turn
TM90: Substitute
TM91: Flash Cannon
HM01: Cut
HM04: Strength
HM06: Rock Smash
 
[B]Egg Moves ([COLOR=olive]Bug Group[/COLOR])[/B]:
 
- Earth Power (Trapinch)
- Counter (Forretress)
- Air Slash (Scyther, Scizor)
- Crunch (Skorupi, Drapion, Trapinch)
- Tail Glow (Volbeat)

[B]Tutor Moves[/B]
-Fury Cutter
-Ice Punch
-Icy Wind
-Knock Off
-Sucker Punch
-ThunderPunch
-Zen Headbutt
-Snore
-Swift
-Earth Power
-Endeavor
-Signal Beam

This is a "Rough Sketch" movepool. I cut down on a bunch of WTF moves.

 

[eric the espeon]

Feel free to swap around some of the flavour moves that are not flavourful.

Adding in weak moves is fine, even ones that may get a little use on very odd sets.

Also I should edit this into the OP but please provide a list of what you have added and what you have removed.

Edit: Added to the OP.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

This is a "Rough Sketch" movepool. I cut down on a bunch of WTF moves.

But you still have Water Pulse! ... And Flash Cannon!

 

[tennisace]

But you still have Water Pulse! ... And Flash Cannon!

Key words: Rough Sketch, a bunch. I have a shitload of other things to do so if someone would be as so kind to chop that movepool I presented to bits and make it completely conform, it would be appreciated. I just felt like I should get a rough base out.

 

[X-Act]

Since you're doing this, you might as well check that this movepool conforms to my movepool guide, as I have a strong suspicion that it doesn't.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Tennis your movepool seems great, i agree with ParadOxymoron to remove both Water Pulse and Flash Cannon.

Also i suggest the addition of Ice Fang in its level-up movepool in the place of Ice Punch as it already gets it via Tutor and it seems pretty off not having Ice Fang.

And maybe remove Steel Wing? it deosn't have any Wings =/

 

[hinode]

I'll check tennis' movepool for guide compatibility.

TM List: All of the bolded moves are included. All the STAB moves included.

Level-up List: 13 moves, no heart scales. I count three competitive moves that aren't a TM or tutor: Ice Shard, Night Slash, and Bug Buzz. I guess you could count Sheer Cold, but it's usually banned. Ice Punch and Knockoff are tutors now.

Egg move list: 5 moves, all competitive to some extent. Earth Power is a tutor now though, so I'm not sure that counts. The total is a bit low, as 4 egg moves is the minimum and 8-10 standard.

Omitting the TM/tutor moves, there are 7 viable competitive moves on the combined level up and egg move list, one too many. Night Slash and Crunch are completely redundant, though. Getting rid of one, if not both, would solve this problem and help with Syclant's superficially overstuffed movepool.

Tutor list: Not covered in the guide (are you going to ever compile statistics on Platinum move tutors, X-Act? I'd be fascinated by the results). The bug/ice stuff seems fine on flavor, but I'm wondering about Endeavor and especially Thunderpunch. Do we want these on Syclant?

To conform to the movepool guide, my suggestion would be to remove Crunch and add 4 random filler moves to the egg move list. Aside from that, we should probably remove some random TMs that don't get much use (Flash Cannon? Poison Jab?) and look over the tutor list more carefully. Everything else seems fine, and tennis removed some of the more glaring stuff like the Fangs already.

 

[X-Act]

What I meant to say is that Syclant's original movepool probably does not conform to the movepool guide... so the new movepool should conform. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[hinode]

Oh. That makes sense.

Incidentally I'll actually support Water Pulse here, as most Ice types get it... Mamoswine and Weavile lines seem to be the only exception.

 

[Cartoons!]

I support Flash Cannon. Syclant seems to be encased entirely in ice, and if you've ever driven in the winter on a sunny day, you know how awful the glare can be.

I guess a wacky Tail Glow user could also use it to hit Mamoswine and other dudes without worrying about focus blast's shaky accuracy?

 

[latinoheat]

[B]Movepool[/B]:
 
[B]Level[/B]:

- Leer
- Scratch
- Leech Life
7  Leech Life
9  Focus Energy
13 Ice Shard
17 Bite
22 Slash
27 Fury Cutter
30 Icy Wind
35 X-Scissor
38 Knock Off
42 Night Slash
47 Ice Fang
55 Bug Buzz
65 Sheer Cold

Competitive moves(Non Tutor/TM) - Bug Buzz, Ice Shard, Night Slash
Removed- Thunder fang, Fire Fang, Ice punch(Tutor)
Added- Ice Fang, Fury Cutter

[B]TMs/HMs[/B]:
TM06: Toxic
TM07: Hail
TM10: Hidden Power
TM12: Taunt
TM13: Ice Beam
TM14: Blizzard
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM16: Light Screen
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM28: Dig
TM31: Brick Break
TM32: Double Team
TM33: Reflect
TM40: Aerial Ace
TM42: Facade
TM43: Secret Power
TM44: Attract
TM45: Rest
TM46: Thief
TM47: Steel Wing
TM51: Roost
TM54: False Swipe
TM58: Endure
TM60: Drain Punch
TM62: Silver Wind
TM66: Payback
TM68: Giga Impact
TM70: Flash
TM72: Avalanche
TM75: Swords Dance
TM78: Captivate
TM80: Rock Slide
TM81: X-Scissor
TM82: Sleep Talk
TM83: Natural Gift
TM84: Poison Jab
TM87: Swagger
TM89: U-Turn
TM90: Substitute
HM01: Cut
HM03: Fly 
HM04: Strength
HM06: Rock Smash

Removed- Water Pulse, Embargo, Rock Tomb, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Flash Cannon, Torment, Fling, Shadow Claw
 
[B]Egg Moves ([COLOR=olive]Bug Group[/COLOR])[/B]:
 
- Earth Power (Trapinch)
- Counter (Forretress)
- Air Slash (Scyther, Scizor)
- Tail Glow (Volbeat)
- Harden (Pinsir,Kakuna,Ninjask)
- Bug Bite (Numerous)
- Detect (Yanma,Yanmega)


Removed- Superpower, Spikes, Crunch
Added- Harden, Bug Bite, Detect


[B]Tutor Moves[/B]

-Air Cutter
-Fury Cutter
-Ice Punch
-Icy Wind
-Knock Off
-Snore
-Swift
-Earth Power
-Endeavor
-Signal Beam

 

[TekkenStorm]

Latino, Rock Slide was voted to remain on the movepool, i don't think you can remove it =/

Also as i said to tennis maybe remove Steel Wing?

And last thing, remove Fly >_>

 

[latinoheat]

It was based on tennis's movepool which also lacks Rock Slide.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Well then you should both fix it as eric said you can't remove it.

2. You may not remove any move that is competitive on Syclant (other than Focus Blast, Stone Edge and Superpower which must be removed), this will be judged by me and TAY.

 

[eric the espeon]

Tennis's list does not show what he removed yet so if you based yours off of it, nor does yours latino.

Anyway Rock Slide is borderline competitive, it can be used against Gyrados and Fire or Flyings not weak to Ice but it is rare.
However we did just vote not to remove it last poll (21 to 14) so please put it back.

 

[cyberzero]

I think that we should remove Roost, which is still on latino's list.

 

[TekkenStorm]

I originally posted a movepool here but i decided to remove it since i prefer zarators more than mine.

 

[zarator]

Movepool:
 - Scratch
 - Leer
 - Leech Life
 7 Leech Life
10 Ice Shard
14 Knock Off
18 Slash
23 Bite
29 Swords Dance
32 X-Scissor
40 Night Slash
49 Ice Fang
55 Bug Buzz
64 Sheer Cold

Main Changes
1) Thunder fang and Fire fang have been removed
2) Ice Shard replaced Focus Energy. Scratch replaced previous Ice Shard placement
3) Swords Dance replaced Icy Wind

[B]TMs/HMs[/B]
TM 03 Water Pulse 
TM 06 Toxic
TM 07 Hail
TM 10 Hidden Power
TM 12 Taunt
TM 13 Ice Beam
TM 14 Blizzard
TM 15 Hyper Beam
TM 17 Protect
TM 18 Rain Dance
TM 19 Giga Drain
TM 21 Frustration
TM 27 Return
TM 28 Dig
TM 31 Brick Break
TM 32 Double Team
TM 39 Rock Tomb
TM 40 Aerial Ace
TM 41 Torment
TM 42 Facade 
TM 43 Attract
TM 44 Secret Power
TM 45 Attract
TM 46 Thief
TM 51 Roost
TM 54 False Swipe
TM 56 Fling
TM 58 Endure
TM 60 Drain Punch
TM 62 Silver Wind
TM 65 Shadow Claw
TM 66 Payback
TM 68 Giga Impact
TM 70 Flash
TM 72 Avalanche
TM 75 Swords Dance
TM 78 Captivate
TM 80 Rock Slide
TM 81 X-Scissor
TM 82 Sleep Talk
TM 83 Natural Gift
TM 84 Poison Jab
TM 87 Swagger
TM 89 U-Turn
TM 90 Substitute
HM 01 Cut
HM 04 Strength
HM 06 Rock Smash

Removals:
1) Light Screen and Reflect. Dual Screen is a powerful support combo, especially when backed by 115 speed and Taunt. I think it should not be allowed to something we meant as a "Pure Glass Cannon"
2) Steel Wing. All pokemon who learn it are either part Flying, have Levitate or are part Steel, so I dont think Syclant should have it
3) Focus Blast. No need to explain here, the community decided
4) Embargo. Only Ghost, Dark and Psychic Pokemon (aside from Zangoose and Persian) have it, so I dont think Syclant should have it too
5) Flash Cannon. There are only 2 categories of pokemon who have this moves, and they are Steel types and pokemon who either have emphasys on Cannon moves ( Blastoise, Kingdra, Octillery ) or have all the elemental beams (Rhyperior, Starmie). Wormadam and Camerupt are the exceptions here
6) Fly. All pokemon who learn fly are
a) Flying typed
b) Levitators (Flygon's case only, anyway)

Discussed moves I kept in the movepool
1) Water Pulse. There are Abomasnow, Articuno, Delibird, Glalie, Frosslass who all learn it. So, why not Syclant?
2) Roost. Most Bug Types who dont have the Flying type but "are supposed to fly" like Beedrill and Scizor have it, and I think this is also Syclant case

Addition
Giga Drain: pretty much all bug types know it, I'd find pretty odd if Syclant would make an exception.

[B]Egg Moves[/B]
Earth Power
Counter
Air Slash
Crunch
Tail Glow
[I]Metal Claw (Scizor)[/I]

I eschewed Super Power (Community decision) and Spikes (too powerful support move in my opinion), and put in Metal Claw just to keep the Egg Moves number acceptable

[B]Tutor moves[/B]
Air Cutter
Fury Cutter
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Knock Off
Swift
Bounce
Earth Power
Mud Slap
Signal Beam
Snore

Pretty conservative list. Maybe some additions would have been possible, but since Syclant's movepool is already large I didnt want to exceed.


Well, here it is. I think this movepool il legit even according to X-Act guide. So, judge it as you like^^

EDIT: Snore added to the Move Tutor list.

EDIT2: 49 Ice Punch replaced with 49 Ice Fang. Note that Ice Punch is still learnable via Move tutor

 

[TekkenStorm]

Zarator, i like yours very much.

 

[zarator]

Wow, thx :-P
When I posted the movepool for CaP5 it did not even get a quote or something... at least this is a little step forward^^
Anyway, if there is something to remove or even to add to what i posted (as I said I have been very strict with tutor moves), feel free to suggest!

 

[tennisace]

I'm sorry but even with the vote I can't say Rock Slide is anywhere NEAR competitive. Its not even in the other options, it was a bs TM move slapped on. I think it should be removed on grounds of flavor.

Edit: Roost should go too, it really doesn't fit because the only things that get it that AREN'T flying type are Flygon and Scizor, and Scyther is part flying. I guess I'll rework my movepool.

 

[hinode]

Edit: Roost should go too, it really doesn't fit because the only things that get it that AREN'T flying type are Flygon and Scizor, and Scyther is part flying. I guess I'll rework my movepool.

Beedrill, Dustox, Volbeat, Illuminise. Zarator's right; all the bugs that have wings but aren't part Flying get it.

 

[tennisace]

What wings are on Syclant again? They're Icicle Spikes imo.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Regardless of their shape, they're still considered wings. Doesn't matter really since I never seen any Syclant use Roost before.

I eschewed Spikes (too powerful support move in my opinion)[/quote]Minor nitpick but Syclant is far too fragile to even use Spike seriously. If it had Skarmory like defense(s), that would have been a different matter.