CaP Revision - Syclant: Part 2 Discussion

[TAY]

This thread is for the discussion of part two of the CAP revision process for Syclant. For those of you unaware, in part two we will decide exactly what aspects of Syclant we want changed. Unless someone gives me a really good reason to include something else, the three options for what will be changed are: Stats, Movepool, and Ability.

So: discuss which of these you think should be changed, and to what degree (based on the results of the last poll, "none" is not an option). Even though it is not part of the upcoming poll, feel free to include specific ideas concerning what should be changed. However, this does NOT mean you can suggest adding anything. This thread will discuss removal/reduction only, so please do not suggest a potential new ability or move or simiar. Please be sure to include a well thought out argument along with your opinion.

Following this thread will be a bold vote in which the options will be Stats, Movepool, and Ability. Each person will be able to vote for as many of the options as they like with either yes, no, or abstaining. I do not wish to force people to vote for or against an area which they do not have an opinion on, and that is the reason for the bold poll as well as the option to abstain. Any of these options with more yes than no votes will be scheduled for a change according to the following discussion. If you have any problems with this method, tell me now. I don't want people complaining about the process after the poll starts, and any such complaints will be ignored in the future.

I'm not sure when exactly I will have internet access (I went to my university to use the computer this time), but we can plan on having this thread open for approximately two days.

----------------------------------

Finally, it was brought up in the previous (Revenankh) thread that there should perhaps be a poll to determine if we have a big change or a small change. The main problem I see with this is that defining exactly what a "big" or "small" change is would be a huge hassle (and perhaps even be impossible). However, I do see a problem with current the process in that each category of changes is voted on independently of the others. Therefore, I would like to propose a change to the process. Instead of the next discussion (that means after the next vote), I would like to allow for complete submissions of changes - similar to what is done with stat spreads in the CaP project. This will allow for changes to each aspect which are coherent with one another, instead of what would really be random changes. I would really like everyone's thoughts on this, but as of now I am leaning toward changing the process. (I would ask everyone to please discuss this paragraph in the current Revenankh thread instead of here, since it carries more relevance to Rev's process, and I don't want the discussion split between two threads).

Sorry for the confusion of this process. I'm trying to make this run as smoothly as I can, but with no precedent to work with it can sometimes be difficult. I know that the last minute changes could make this really chaotic, but I am myself hoping to set a useful precedent if and when we go through this process again.

Thanks.

Syclant Reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...18&postcount=3
PR thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45874

 

[Hyra]

No Fighting moves besides Brick Break/Drain Punch.
Remove superfluous moves from movepool (especially support moves).
Potentially drop speed to 120 or 115.

too tired to argue now, and I've already posted much of my reasoning.

 

[omgthatkid]

Lower its Speed to 115.
Remove excess moves that ought not be there.
And I have to disagree with Hyra on the fighting moves part, because I like Focus Blast.
Super Power I don't have a problem with leaving out.
I think that's it, for now.

 

[billymills]

Lower speed to 116 max and remove the extra moves (earthpower, roost, etc.) but leave the abilities as they are.

 

[omgthatkid]

Lower speed to 116 max and remove the extra moves (earthpower, roost, etc.) but leave the abilities as they are.

Woah. Woah. Woah.
Neither of those is an "excess move."
Both are competitively viable.
Earthpower especially.
What?
I just can't believe that you would call that one an excess move.
That's a bit, I don't know, ignorant?
Something like that.
Considering it has great coverage and is one of the best new special moves added.
Roost, though Syclant has horrible defenses, is viable if you really need that recovery.

 

[Bourbon]

I think that the removal of Earth Power from Syclant's movepool would be a huge help. Tentacruel was an extremely viable counter for it, but then we went and gave it Earth Power. Stupid.

 

[X-Act]

Reduce Bast Stat Rating from 'Fantastic' to 'Excellent'. Reducing Speed from 121 to 115 would do it nicely.

 

[bumfacepik]

Reduce the speed that is all it needs for now. If it is still broken we can always give it more drastic changes.

 

[sbc]

Reduce Speed and get rid of fighting moves over 70 BP and perhaps Earth Power too.

 

[tennisace]

Syclant:

1. Lower the speed to 115.

We all know it's necessary. I would consider raising the Special Defense a point if everyone REALLY wanted it to have an even BST, but it doesn't need it. The 115 is big, as it can now no longer outspeed Sceptile/Dugtrio/Starmie.

2. Get rid of extraneous moves.

The moves I believe to be on the table are: Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Night Slash, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Counter, Air Slash, Crunch. These are all extraneous moves and should go.

3. Get rid of Compoundeyes.

What? Yes. Get rid of it. Give it Honey Gatherer for all I care, but this shouldn't have two abilities that are completely amazing. We made Mountaineer, and Mountaineer won the poll, so it should stay by default. However, Compoundeyes needs to go. This alone will knock down Syclant's power because if it wants an accurate Blizzard it needs Hail support.

 

[omgthatkid]

Syclant:

2. Get rid of extraneous moves.

The moves I believe to be on the table are: Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Night Slash, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Counter, Air Slash, Crunch. These are all extraneous moves and should go.

I don't think Swords Dance and Stone Edge are extraneous moves.
I mean, being a "mountaineer" it would of course have some practice with Rock type moves in a sense.
And Swords Dance just makes a physical set more viable, and wasn't Syclant's purpose to be a mixed sweeper?

 

[eric the espeon]

1. Reduce speed.
Syclant as it stands has much higher speed than comparable sweepers. Reducing its base speed to 115 would remove this problem and make it a much more manageable sweeper for teams without a dedicated special wall (Physical set seem less threatening, they have much weaker STABs).

2. Remove unneeded moves that do not fit.
This does not mean take away Earth Power/Focus Blast/Sword Dance/Stone Edge or Tail Glow. Or for that matter cut it movepool down to just those that are competitively viable on Syclant.

What this means is take away the vast number of moves that do not fit flavorwise and make it look like a fanboy's dream, things like Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, and Counter would be obvious targets.
We should draw up and discuss a list of non-competitive moves that can go.


I am against removing the following moves because they would make the already rare (and in my experience not remotely overpowered) physical sets much less viable: Superpower (Never 2KOs Blissey on the TG set, so its rare there.), Brick Break, Swords Dance, Stone Edge.

Earth Power and Focus Blast, some people say it was a mistake to give it these, I disagree. They give it a chance to at least hurt a couple of its counters by sacrificing a moveslot.

If you use Earth Power on a Tail Glow set (You do not want to lose a STAB) you are forced to drop Focus Blast and with it all hope against Blissey, Regice and Snorlax.

If you chose Focus Blast then you will 2KO Blissey 49% of the time (or take 50% from SR) after a turn of setup, same goes for other special walls. They can still beat you if they have something that can 2KO you, but at least you have a chance.

You can use them both on a choice set, but like any choice set you can take a hit then go to something that resists the move.

Yes I know that EP + TG is illegal but now that we have a EP move tutor they would be allowed together.

 

[TekkenStorm]

I completly agree with eric but i also want to suggest to add this one move to Syclants movepool: Ice Fang.

 

[tennisace]

I completly agree with eric but i also want to suggest to add this one move to Syclants movepool: Ice Fang.

It gets Ice Punch, why would it need Ice Fang?

 

[Hyra]

I would like to disagree with the people who think dropping speed to 115 and then allowing Earth Power and Tail Glow together would solve anything.

Nothing in the 120 speed range counters Syclant. Dropping speed helps, but is not the only problem with Syclant. The problem is you can 2HKO everything in the game depending on what moves you use. Tail Glow has three sets that come out of it:

Tail Glow / Blizzard / Bug Buzz / Focus Blast - Current Standard
Tail Glow / Blizzard / Bug Buzz / Earth Power - Trades a Blissey kill for a Tentacruel kill.
Tail Glow / Blizzard / Earth Power / Focus Blast - Gets the kill on Blissey and Tentacruel in exchange for missing the 2HKO on Bronzong (barely, 135 from Bug Buzz compared to 120 from Focus Blast).

Both Ice/Fight and Ice/Gound offer amazing coverage. The last set + Stealth Rock is probably nigh unstoppable outside of revenge killing (which does not make anything less broken, Syclant still gets his kill like Garchomp gets his). Currently, you don't see anything besides the standard because 70 BP from HP Ground isn't as threatening on Steels as 90 BP from Earth Power.

One of Blizzard, Bug Buzz, Earth Power, and Focus Blast has to go. I suggest Focus Blast, because being infinitely walled by Blissey is very crippling for a Special sweeper. You could remove Earth Power instead, but that leads to a Deoxys-S style situation, where the counters can take around 40% on the switch in and have no means of recovery (Tentacruel, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross). I'm assuming no one wants to drop Bug Buzz and Blizzard, because that would be just slightly weird.

We could drop Tail Glow, but then Syclant would play so differently it would be a different Pokemon basically. (Swords Dance should also stay on a related note SD/IP/BugBuzz/BrickBreak @ LO is a really good set on its own and is much weaker than the Tail Glow set.)

 

[eric the espeon]

If we have to drop a major move Focus Blast would probably be the best option.

Just to clear this up: Focus Blast only 2KO's Blissey after a TG, and has 70% acc (unless you want to take 50% from SR) so assuming you force a switch it goes like this:

Blissey switched in
Syclant used Tail Glow
------
Syclant used Focus Blast
>53% damage
Blissey used {Thunder Wave (Syclant is now totally crippled for the rest of the match, and Bliss can stall for a miss with Softboiled.) / Flamethrower (Syclant is now dead. If it runs sash you still have a 51% chance that at least one of the Focus Blasts will miss.)

Blissey does counter Focus Blast Tail Glow Syclant most of the time if it runs Thunder Wave or Flamethrower. Admitedly FB does help with a lot of things but Bliss is already a great counter.

 

[Blln]

1. Remove Earth Power, Superpower, and Focus Blast (possibly Brick Break)
-not only are these moves weird flavor-wise, but I believe they are really the only moves that make Syclant so ridiculous. With these moves out of the picture, Blissey and Tentacruel now become 100% counters to the Tail Glow set, and if Syclant wants to hit Heatran and other Steels it is going to be forced to carry the much weaker HP ground. With these moves gone, Syclant becomes MUCH easier to deal with.

2. Possibly lower base speed
-whether this means all the way down to 110 or just down to 120, the 121 speed looks sloppy and fanboyish. I wouldn't mind dropping Syclant all the way down to 111 or something, still giving it the ability to guaranteedly outspeed base 110s like gengar while creating a whole host of new checks in the form of Azelf, Starmie and Raikou. I don't think this will hurt his viability at all. His speed right now is excessive and unnecessary and all it serves to do is make Syclant nigh impossible to revenge kill. A lower speed would simply make him more balanced.

 

[HD]

1. Remove Mountaineer
Sorry Doug and everybody else who programed it, but Mountaineer has to go. If Syclant switches in on a rock move and is faster than the opposing pokemon, s/he takes no damage, direct or indirect. Since Syclant is faster than most things using rock moves, s/he takes no damage, gets a chance to set up, or KO the opposing pokemon.

 

[1059860]

Syclant:

1. Lower the speed to 115.

We all know it's necessary. I would consider raising the Special Defense a point if everyone REALLY wanted it to have an even BST, but it doesn't need it. The 115 is big, as it can now no longer outspeed Sceptile/Dugtrio/Starmie.

2. Get rid of extraneous moves.

The moves I believe to be on the table are: Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Night Slash, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Counter, Air Slash, Crunch. These are all extraneous moves and should go.

3. Get rid of Compoundeyes.

What? Yes. Get rid of it. Give it Honey Gatherer for all I care, but this shouldn't have two abilities that are completely amazing. We made Mountaineer, and Mountaineer won the poll, so it should stay by default. However, Compoundeyes needs to go. This alone will knock down Syclant's power because if it wants an accurate Blizzard it needs Hail support.

Agree with what Tennis said, besides I think keeping Night Slash, Roost, Rock Slide, Sword Dance, Air Slash and Crunch. The others, such as Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Stone Edge, Counter, Spikes, Fly, Flash Cannon and Rock Tomb can go.

And yes, rid Compoundeyes. Reasoning: read Tennis' post.

 

[beej]

I would like to disagree with the people who think dropping speed to 115 and then allowing Earth Power and Tail Glow together would solve anything.

Nothing in the 120 speed range counters Syclant. Dropping speed helps, but is not the only problem with Syclant. The problem is you can 2HKO everything in the game depending on what moves you use. Tail Glow has three sets that come out of it:

Tail Glow / Blizzard / Bug Buzz / Focus Blast - Current Standard
Tail Glow / Blizzard / Bug Buzz / Earth Power - Trades a Blissey kill for a Tentacruel kill.
Tail Glow / Blizzard / Earth Power / Focus Blast - Gets the kill on Blissey and Tentacruel in exchange for missing the 2HKO on Bronzong (barely, 135 from Bug Buzz compared to 120 from Focus Blast).

Both Ice/Fight and Ice/Gound offer amazing coverage. The last set + Stealth Rock is probably nigh unstoppable outside of revenge killing (which does not make anything less broken, Syclant still gets his kill like Garchomp gets his). Currently, you don't see anything besides the standard because 70 BP from HP Ground isn't as threatening on Steels as 90 BP from Earth Power.

One of Blizzard, Bug Buzz, Earth Power, and Focus Blast has to go. I suggest Focus Blast, because being infinitely walled by Blissey is very crippling for a Special sweeper. You could remove Earth Power instead, but that leads to a Deoxys-S style situation, where the counters can take around 40% on the switch in and have no means of recovery (Tentacruel, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross). I'm assuming no one wants to drop Bug Buzz and Blizzard, because that would be just slightly weird.

We could drop Tail Glow, but then Syclant would play so differently it would be a different Pokemon basically. (Swords Dance should also stay on a related note SD/IP/BugBuzz/BrickBreak @ LO is a really good set on its own and is much weaker than the Tail Glow set.)

This. To be honest I think that tennis is right on the ball here, but the Speed should either be dropped to 110 or lower, or it shouldn't be changed at all. Either way, Focus Blast is a move that I feel has to go. It's way too powerful. Snorlax and Blissey would make fine counters, which is something Syclant really needs. Counters.

In addition, I would like to show my support for the removal of Compoundeyes. Even if we don't remove Focus Blast, this will make it much less viable and will also keep it from using Blizzard reliably, outside of hail. The biggest problem with Syclant is its ridiculously high base power, and I think that this is a great way to remedy that. Ice Beam is still a damn powerful move, and on something with 110 Speed and 114 SA + Tail Glow, it's very scary indeed.

 

[TAY]

Just a note: removing extraneous non-competitive moves will happen. Let's try to keep discussion to just the competitive aspect of movepool/stats/ability.

 

[bumfacepik]

If we remove all extra non competitive moves then will it not be too good in random?

 

[Master of Llamas]

1. Remove Mountaineer
Sorry Doug and everybody else who programed it, but Mountaineer has to go. If Syclant switches in on a rock move and is faster than the opposing pokemon, s/he takes no damage, direct or indirect. Since Syclant is faster than most things using rock moves, s/he takes no damage, gets a chance to set up, or KO the opposing pokemon.

^This^

And not only that, I see no reason why Syclant should get special treatment. A lot of Pokemon suffer because of their SR weakness. I fail to see how Syclant is different. It will limit his switch ins if rapid spin support isn't provided. This will limit his potential to sweep and hopefully balance him more.

However, I am also in favor in a speed drop. I would drop him to 120 instead of 115 however. Just to get rid of his own speed tier. Again, I don't see why Syclant gets special treatment. There's also no Pokemon at base 120 that really counter him, so it's not even that much a nerf.

Lastly, getting rid of his extra unneeded non-competitive moves is a must. Overall, Syclant reminds me of a spoiled child that has unfair advantages over it's peers.

 

[AJC]

For Scyant my gripe is just his own speed tier and his way too bloated movepool but i don't see any reason to bump off anything thats made its way into a solid viable set out of the two ones up for revision Scyant for sure needs it the most