CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 13a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[CyzirVisheen]

Please note for the time being Cyberzero is recovering from an injury, so as ATL I will be continuing things until he gets back.

Our Pokemon so far:

Type: Electric / Dragon
Style Bias: Somewhat Defensive
Build Bias: Mixed, possibly Special
Ability: Shield Dust/Static
Stats: 108 HP/60 Atk/118 Def/112 Sp Atk/70 Sp Def/80 Spe

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

Move Discussion Posting Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
• All moves that are considered Competitive for this pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are miscategorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

Supporting Moves List

Allowed:
Toxic
Teeter Dance/Confuse Ray
Spider Web/Mean Look/Block
Double Team
Sleep Talk
Subsitute
Rest
Attract
Captivate
Protect
Dragon Dance
Thunder Wave
Magnet Rise
Charge
Knock Off
Growth
Roar/Whirlwind
Gravity
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Pain Split
Safeguard
Mirror Coat
Haze
Psycho Shift
Mist
Counter
Curse
Fake Tears/Metal Sound
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy
Refresh
Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis
Stealth Rock
Taunt
Amnesia
Iron Defense/Barrier/Acid Armor
Stun Spore/Glare
Meditate/Sharpen
Power Trick
Trick Room

Controversial:
Yawn
Wish
Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up
Light Screen
Reflect
Cosmic Power
Roost/Recover/Slack Off/Milk Drink/Softboiled
Metal Burst

Unallowed:
Leech Seed
Calm Mind
Baton Pass
Swords Dance
Nasty Plot/Tail Glow
Agility/Rock Polish
Will-o-Wisp
Spore/Hypnosis/Sleep Powder/Grasswhistle/Sing/Dark Void/Lovely Kiss
Trick
Encore

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Can't think right now...Taunt can be unallowed because it would be very annoying when combined with Shield Dust...am I right...?

 

[billymills]

In for allowing Slack Off. This would allow Spiffy to double as a bulky sweeper (see salamence), supporter (see d-nite), or even general wall (see hippowdon). It has the stats and the general movepool necessary for all of these, all it needs is recovery.

I like Growth NOT calm mind. Calm mind allows Spiffy to become an insanely powerful sweeper, with huge defences. It can take a hit from nearly everything and OHKO right back. Growth allows it to stat-up but still being countered by special sweepers.

Stun Spore is also a good idea, allowing Spiffy to paralyze volt absorbers and ground types.

That's a good start.

 

[Thorns]

Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Agility and Stealth Rock to Unallowed right away.

The boosting moves turn CAP 8 into a sweeper (SD not so much), which isn't cool. Kitsunoh failed at doing its job, let's fix that. We have to take advantage of the defensive bonuses of Shield Dust and Static.

SR encourages using this to set up. We have to use four moveslots to efficiently tank.

Will-o-wisp should probably go to Unallowed too, Burn is too much.
I am unsure of Dragon Dance and Calm Mind right now.

Thunder Wave to Allowed. Precedent, and the ability to stop anything that relies on its speed is cool.

Roost should be considered for Allowed, it's an awesome healing move, and won't break this. More later.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Can't think right now...Taunt can be unallowed because it would be very annoying when combined with Shield Dust...am I right...?

I don't agree. It's not like status moves are neccessary to stop this thing. I'm in support of putting Taunt in Allowed.

Agreed with Thorns on everything except possibly Will-o-Wisp.

I support Knock Off to Unallowed as Tyranitar, looking to be one of CAP8's main counters, is usually Choice Banded.

I support Reflect, Safeguard and Light Screen to Allowed, to help wall hits.

I also feel that Rain Dance and Sunny Day should be Allowed, because, while they aren't too powerful, could add some variety.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

In for allowing Slack Off. This would allow Spiffy to double as a bulky sweeper (see salamence), supporter (see d-nite), or even general wall (see hippowdon). It has the stats and the general movepool necessary for all of these, all it needs is recovery.

I like Growth NOT calm mind. Calm mind allows Spiffy to become an insanely powerful sweeper, with huge defences. It can take a hit from nearly everything and OHKO right back. Growth allows it to stat-up but still being countered by special sweepers.

Stun Spore is also a good idea, allowing Spiffy to paralyze volt absorbers and ground types.

Isn't there a certain pink Pokemon that does all of those up there (Not Stun Spore but T-wave) and lost his greatness long ago?

Slack Off in controversial. I'd love some instant healing with it, but would everyone else?

I disagree with Calm Mind being disallowed. Plenty of guys that have high defense and the move can play this way and it doesn't cause too many probelms when they do.

Stun Spore is a good idea. Less accuracy, but more possible targets.

 

[Dr. Duck]

Stun Spore is also a good idea, allowing Spiffy to paralyze volt absorbers and ground types.

That's a good start.

We've already named the thing Spiffy? In any case, I disagree with Stun Spore. It's a no-brainer that this CAP will receive Thunder Wave, and in any case this CAP should be limited to a single paralysis move.

I second Slack Off as a recovery move, for I think it will benefit this CAP better than say...Roost?

I think that Magnet Rise could be viable if this Pokemon wants to set up against some counters. I also think Reflect could nullify some problems for this Pokemon. These two abilities would boost the defensive side of this Pokemon, but not completely ignore its counters.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

We've already named the thing Spiffy? In any case, I disagree with Stun Spore. It's a no-brainer that this CAP will receive Thunder Wave, and in any case this CAP should be limited to a single paralysis move.

I don't know if having two paralysis moves would be too bad on this guy. Each one has their pros and cons. However, it would be annoying having to always try to guess which one each guy has.

I say both Screens shall be allowed. Reflect mainly for Earthquake and Light Screen for all Special moves in general.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I support Calm Mind for Allowed on the basis that it could create a sort of reversed Bulk Up Revenankh.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Isn't there a certain pink Pokemon that does all of those up there(Not Stun Spore but T-wave) and lost his greatness long ago?

Clefable or Wiggytuff? Always thought Clefable was doing okay in UU.

Once again, accept and support with Deck Knight's suggestions. The only I would add is Calm Mind but need more thought behind such a thing.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

You know, I'll go for either unallowed or controversial for any standard instant healing moves. Instead, I say we should allow Morning Sun (which would further solidify Tyranitar is a solid counter, which I'm fine with).

 

[LudwigVanDamon]

How about Fake Tears for allowed? Lowering special deffence would be helpful with his stat spred. I don't think it would be too over powered as all you would need to do to counter it is to switch out.

 

[Depressio]

I'd like to see some form of phazing, so I'm suggesting Roar/Whirlwind, but any sort of phazing would be good. I see lots of CM, SD, and BU users, especially in other CAPs.

I'd also like to see Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. TWave and WoW users would have a hard time with this, and it can help rest users as well.

 

[Coronis]

I'd like to see some form of phazing, so I'm suggesting Roar/Whirlwind, but any sort of phazing would be good. I see lots of CM, SD, and BU users, especially in other CAPs.

I'd also like to see Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. TWave and WoW users would have a hard time with this, and it can help rest users as well.

I don't want to see this turn into a supporting pokemon. Heal bell and aromatherapy for unallowed. Roar and Whirlwind aren't really needed, if you need a counter for stat uppers, use Arghonaut. NP/SD for unallowed, we don't want a pure sweeper either. Still undecided on BU/CM.

Stun Spore would be awesome, I know a lot of people would get annoyed e.g by somebody switching in something like Fidgit. SR shouldn't even be considered, at all.

 

[Not Scicky]

I believe Haze and Mist should be moved to allowed right now, first of all, it's a goddamn cloud, and also, this seems like it would definitely benefit from a way to screw with slower ground types

Calm Mind should be unallowed, as it takes away one of CAP8's few weaknesses, a large reluctance to take special attacks, and boosts its already impressive satk.

 

[Serpent]

Amensia and Iron Defence for unallowed. They give CAP8 too much of a defensive boost, meaning only hard SE hits will do alot of damage.

Rest and Sleep Talk for allowed. Cresselia, a similar pokemon, gets them, and isn't 'broken' because of it. They might be a bit too powerful, but still.

Moonlight/Morning Sun for allowed. They are weather depentdant moves, and with TTar being one of the main counters, it will stop CAP8 being able to out stall TTar.

 

[ray2020]

let's see
Rain Dance, flavor-wise, seems logical to put, but the Thunder accuracy boost, Controversial, no?
Taunt stops SR, WoW and other statuses. Combined with shield dust, CAP8 is near-impossible to cripple. most likely unallowed
Safeguard, to a lesser extent, is much more limited than taunt Allowed
Refresh i like it better than Heal Bell... i know i doesn't cure sleep/freeze, but this seems a bit "fairer" to use Allowed
For some reason, I'd like Stockpile on CAP8, defensive boost

 

[Grimoire]

I will also want to drop in Support for Charge being Allowed. It crossed my mind at one point but it wasn't on my 'must' mention list :d(plus I didn't think it would garner much support).

As for Transform I am all for it being on the Allowed list. Could be fun to play with. Though I guess one could say it undermines the concept by 'switching' your ability. But meh, it isn't like it would be mainstream.

 

[zarator]

Just some points IMO:
1) This thing should not receive any better heal than Morning Sun/Synthesis/Moonlight. With those defenses, that great typing and such a good dual STAB, a standard recovery move would be too much in my book
2) Calm Mind for Unallowed. With Hippowdon-esque physical defenses, 112 Sp Atk, almost-perfect coverage with just his dual-STAB, a Sub+CM CAP8 would make even things like Sub+CM Jirachi or Sub+CM Stratagem look like jokes. Heck, it would probably be the best Sub+CM sweeper of the OU metagame.
3) Stealth Rock for Unallowed. I don't think this guy should receive much in the way of supporting move besides Thunder Wave, Light Screen,Weather effects and maybe Reflect
4) Dragon Dance for Allowed. Its physical might is lower than Pyroak (and, lacking also Rock Head, Volt Tackle is gonna hurt. A lot). Volt Tackle + Outrage form what maybe is the riskiest attacking duo I could even think of - for the user, not for the opponent. So I don't think Dragon Dance will break CAP8 anytime soon.
5) Rain Dance for Allowed. It would give Rain Dance teams a very good tool to play with (even if I still think Zapdos is better), and since Tyranitar is already a good counter to CAP8, Rain Dance would not certainly break CAP8.

And now, on with the new suggestion... Trick Room. What do you guys think of it? I think it should be Controversial or even Allowed, but I'd like to hear your opinion first.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

I am supporting Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Sandstorm and Hail for allowed. This thing is basically a cloud, so it makes sense that it should have some control over weather *wishes he had suggested Weather Ball in offensive moves*

 

[JimBob]

I support Dragon Dance but I don't want any other stat-boosting moves on here.

Thunder Wave and Stun Spore allowed

Stealth Rock please unallowed. There are plenty of rockers already and this guy doesn't need it, it would probably cut on his usefulness as people would ignore some other moves just to put in filler Stealth Rock

 

[Coram_Boy]

I support stunspore/thunderwave. should be allowed. I don't know about a second status - perhaps toxic?
Transform for allowed/controversial. It could be an interesting move to use and is good as a last resort type affair. Also, slackoff or morning sun/moonlight for allowed. Stealth rock unallowed - as many have said we have enough SRers already. Trick room for discussion.

 

[Erazor]

Gravity sounds cool on CAP 8 - Thunder, Fire Blast/Hydro Pump, and Draco Meteor benefit from it, and there are very few users of Gravity in the whole game. I don't think that this will break CAP8- so Gravity for allowed.

Dragon Dance should be allowed as well - CAP 8 isn't doing too much with base 60 Attack, even if it has Volt Tackle and Outrage. Its physical movepool will be limited as well, so DD isn't doing too much.

Magnet Rise for controversial- lots of Electric types get it, and it only lasts for a few turns, but it removes a major weakness - and with Tyranitar supposed to be a counter, it seems controversial.

Roost/Recover/Slack Off(call it what you want) for controversial - while it would be really nice to have reliable recovery on a tank, it just might be over the line.

 

[zarator]

Fake Tears for unallowed. This is in the same boat as Light Screen except it only affects one pokemon (and the effects are stackable). No Clear Body pokemon are special attackers save Regice, meaning this is unstoppable for the most part.

Fake Tears lowers Sp. Def., not Sp. Atk. What are you talking about?

 

[Veedrock]

My bad, workin' off memory. Took Fake Tears off. What move am I thinking of...Captivate. But that's guaranteed, so I can't argue against that.

Since people won't look it up and ignored this part of my post, these moves are guaranteed to be on CAP8. Do not bother suggesting or protesting them.

[B]TM06 - Toxic[/B]
[B]TM11 - Sunny Day[/B] (except most Water and Ice Pokemon)
[B]TM17 - Protect[/B]
[B]TM18 - Rain Dance[/B] (except most Grass and Fire Pokemon)
[B]TM32 - Double Team[/B]
[B]TM44 - Rest[/B]
[B]TM45 - Attract[/B] (except genderless Pokemon)
[B]TM58 - Endure[/B]
[B]TM78 - Captivate[/B] (except genderless Pokemon)
[B]TM82 - Sleep Talk[/B]
[B]TM90 - Substitute[/B]

Thunder Wave will be there too, since CAP8 is an Electric-type.